I’m using one that’s a little more current, but they’re likely the same. If that’s the case (mine’s at work), then I mispoke on the pronoun reference, at least as far as AP is concerned. The rest, as you’ve shown, is accurate. A nameless god would not already be part of a monotheistic religion.

Esthier on September 3, 2007 at 6:17 PM

Shorter Esthier: Once again, I was wrong.

VerbumSap on September 3, 2007 at 1:19 AM

I’m using one that’s a little more current, but they’re likely the same. If that’s the case (mine’s at work), then I mispoke on the pronoun reference, at least as far as AP is concerned. The rest, as you’ve shown, is accurate. A nameless god would not already be part of a monotheistic religion.

“All believers know about the silence of God,” he (the Holy father) said in unprepared remarks. “Even Mother Teresa, with all her charity and force of faith, suffered from the silence of God.”
.

“He said believers sometimes had to withstand the silence of God in order to understand the situation of people who do not believe.” http://africa.reuters.com/top/news/usnBAN230056.html
.

“…this is the stuff nightmares are made of
the final arrival of atheist
being eaten up alive by devouring worms
what possible purpose???…
save some evolutionary-custodial-cleanup
.

I have seen the feeding frenzy of maggots
devouring dead animals in the woods, or roadside
it is a study in directed chaos
not unlike a murder of Crows in the late-Autumn-Champlain Valley sky….
it seems w/out direction
yet accomplishes a purpose.
.

I have seen the Heaven of the Animals w/my own eyes
God does not view His Creatures as so much garbage
to be trashed or re-cycled
the atheists can keep their hopelessness
Mercy originates in Heaven
& dwells in a contrite Heart
.

what purpose, therefore, to embrace final death
save, this Vision of the maggots of ‘No God!’
eating the Spirit up alive.
.

though yet i falter! my eyes are pinned on Heaven”

It’s in the AP style book.

From The Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual (1990):

Capitalize God in references to the deity of all monotheistic religions. Capitalize all noun references to the deity: God the Father, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, etc. Lowercase personal pronouns: he, him, thee, thou.
Lowercase gods and goddesses in references to the deities of polytheistic religions. . . . [and] in references to false gods: He made money his god.

Dude. You’re making yourself look bad worse. “God” does not mean “Christian God” in English.

Nonfactor on September 2, 2007 at 8:16 PM

In English, we capitalize names that refer to a specific person. If we’re just talking about a nameless supreme being, there’s no reason to capitalize the word god.

Grammatically, all references, including pronouns, are frequently capitalized when used in reference to the Christian God.

The Bible is capitalized but not underlined as are all of the chapters of the Bible. Other religious texts are not given the same treatment.

This isn’t my opinion. This isn’t my theology. It’s in the AP style book.

Esthier on September 2, 2007 at 8:08 PM

Dude. You’re making yourself look bad worse. “God” does not mean “Christian God” in English.

It’s just a statement of fact and I could tear apart your statements including showing you the non-inclusive syllogism in your 7:16 PM statement as it referred to your earlier discussion with AP, but you wouldn’t understand it anyway.

Christoph on September 2, 2007 at 7:58 PM

People often prove they can do something by simply telling others its true.

You’re so profoundly stupid, Esthier, that it is almost impossible to debate with you.

I don’t mean just that I disagree with you… I disagree with many people here I can converse with… I mean that you are dumb.

Christoph on September 2, 2007 at 7:39 PM

And again Christoph proves how brilliant he is by resorting to childish insults.

I don’t mean just that I disagree with you… I disagree with many people here I can converse with… I mean that you are dumb.

Christoph on September 2, 2007 at 6:27 PM

You just don’t get it. Here you are judging God as though He is below you.

Oh and the woman you refer to, she was going to die anyway. Yeah it’s great that her dying gesture was to protect her child, but it didn’t make anything worse for her.

A loving sacrifice means you actually have to give something up. Zeke did no such thing. Abraham was prepared to do that for God, who he loved more than his own son. Think of it what you will, but you’re only judging it by your wisdom, something the Bible frequently refers to as pure folly.

I capitalize the noun out of respect for MY God… the Creator of life… which may or not be Christian…(which I also capitlize out of respect for its adherents, as I capitalize Mormon, Jew, and even Muslim), the capital letter G is not trademarked by Christianity.

And you can’t win a theological argument by referring to capitalization.

Christoph on September 2, 2007 at 5:46 PM

You really should remove that stick and seek professional help.

I’m not making a theological argument there. I’m simply explaining English grammar. You may not care about grammar, but that is literally a grammar rule in English, that all references to the Christian God are capitalized.

Is there a physical (meaning a bodily reflection or example here in our world) reflection of God’s Love for you and your girlfriend to emulate?

Having reread your comment again, the short answer is yes:

Linda Zeka

What not to do:

Abraham

Dude, it sounds like you have a great girl. :-)

I do. She’s a great Christian girl, too.

Does your imperfect God possess infinite Love as an attribute of His nature?

Not that I’m aware of. However, He created a world where great love is possible.

And I consider the highest meaning of the word love to be its use as a verb. You can have strong fuzzy feelings over anything, or not. But, as Jesus, who was often a great philosopher if the issue of His divinity remains very much in doubt, said, “A man has no greater love than that he lay down his life for his fellows.”

Now where this gets interesting is if a person does not believe in a reward or afterlife in heaven it is an even greater act of love.

I love HER regardless of whether doing so will get me into heaven. I hope and pray heaven is real and I have a chance to get there. My favourite song that I’ve shared with her is, “Heaven – Featuring Do” (legally licenced version no less) and the video pretty much describes what I MOST want in life.

But regardless of whether there is a personal God concerned with me or not, I love her, and not the more available women. So my love for her is not less, but equal to or even more whether I’m religious or not.

How do you reconcile Love with the nature of your God?

I don’t need to. Love is one of the many realities of the world as is hate. As in most cases, it comes down to what we believe more than what happens.

I was reading about a biography from a special forces soldier who was captured and tortured for 11 days during blackhawk down in Somalia.

His attitude was he would not be defeated and he wasn’t. Other people are defeated by losing a job or getting bad grades or getting turned down for a date or having their plans interrupted.

God, my God, created a world where we could emulate the founding fathers, who in some were cases Deists who believed in a Creator and morality, but that it was our job to better things on Earth because he wasn’t going to do it for us.

Or we can sit around praying.

Someone asked whether Mother Theresa or Bill Gates brought more light into the world. I said it’s a good competition to have.

What I mean is I believe they are both serving God’s will… they are maximizing who they are. If anything, Gates is the one creating more, but Theresa is showing enormous resilience in the face of discouragement, which is another type of accomplishment, arguably greater.

Is there a physical (meaning a bodily reflection or example here in our world) reflection of God’s Love for you and your girlfriend to emulate?

Concerning the last point,

The Christian doctrine of Love states that..

1.) the Cross (Calvary) was the Act of Love

2.) 1 Corinthians 13 is a list of the description of various attributes that compose concepts that define Love essentially

3.) and the Incarnation was the historical, “in this real, concrete world” example and testimony to God’s Love. Thus, God’s Love is rooted in this physical, concrete world. The Incarnation—Jesus Christ in physical flesh—is the historical linkage between immaterial God and our physical, everyday world.

That’s a whole bunch of religious high minded speech and theology that simply isn’t necessary to understand love.

An extreme, but all too real, example of love was the article I read some years back that affected me profoundly. I was going to paraphrase, but I have it in my scrap book (it’s what inspired me to start one and remains one of its few items) and I will write it verbatim.

Mother Dies Sheltering Baby Daughter in House Fire

By Anne Kyle

Regina &#bull; A young mother trapped in her burning apartment building last weekend made the ultimate sacrifice to save her infant daughter.

Realizing there was no escape from the raging blaze, Linda Zeka swaddled her six-month-old daughter, Hanna, in blankets and sheltered her from the flames.

Ms. Zeka was found dead at the scene of the fire on Saturday that devastated her family and left two other families homeless.

But the little girl survived.

“When they found her, Linda was lying on the floor, nestling Hanna, who was covered in blankets, shielding her from the fire. The air trapped under the blankets is likely the only thing that saved the baby,” Adrian Leusink, a family friend said.

Ms. Zeka, 28, died of smoke inhalation. Her husband, Arben Zeka, 34, remains in critical condition in hospital, and her three year-old son, Noll, is being treated for smoke inhalation and burns to his face and hands.

“Doctors are saying it’s a miracle someone so young survived the smoke and the fire,” Mr. Leusink said, adding Hanna, who suffered burns to her face and right leg, is expected to make a full recovery.

This is love and is much better of a definition than the theologies you relate.

I simply don’t give a damn whether this woman was a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Mormon, pagan sex-partying Druid, or an atheist.

Apparently, unless she accepted Jesus Christ as her Saviour she is not getting into Christian heaven. More offensively, she will go to hell.

If that is true — and the majority of Christians believe it is — certainly if the laypeople don’t, their theologians do by and large — then that God is not only someone who I won’t worship, I oppose Him.

Damn Him.

IF that is the nature of God, which I don’t believe it is. Yet Christians want me to worship this psychopath who lets in diddling child molesters who have sincere changes of heart, but sends Muslims and others to hell who do the above?

No thanks.

While I believe God is imperfect, I believe the best intentions of our Creator are for us to be good. BUT WHETHER THAT IS TRUE OF GOD OR NOT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME.

I’m an independent being. I decide what is right for me, not God.

Just as I strive against the evil parts of my nature, I strive against the evil parts of God’s nature. I don’t ask, “What does God want me to do?” rather, I ask, “What is the right thing to do?”

There is a difference.

A perfect example is Abraham and Isaac. He showed his love for God by following ORDERS to murder his defenseless son?

That’s not love. Linda Zeka is love. Abraham is cowardice and God, as depicted there, nothing more than a gang leader demanding an evil act to show loyalty.

And don’t tell me that God stayed His hand. I don’t care. He still failed the test and that God is an evil twisted bastard.

If I was in that position, if I could muster the courage considering all the things God could and, according to the Bible, would do to me then and throughout eternity, I would have told God no.

If ordered, I would have told him to —- Himself in no uncertain terms. I would have taken my spear or a rock or my shoe and flung it at the heaven in a vain attempt to injure God if that is the only weapon I had at my disposable.

That is love. I do not know if I have Linda Zeka’s courage and (true) God willing, will never find out, but if I do find myself in either of those situations… I hope I pass the test FOR MYSELF.

I’m reminded of the God-awful (no pun intended) Robin Williams movie based on the even worse book about the man whose wife commits suicide, goes to hell, and Williams character goes after her.

Damn right. And to hell with God (no pun intended) if He gets in my way.

He may destroy me, but I would never worship Him and would actively seek to thwart Him, certainly in this case.

Fortunately I do not believe this is the nature of God; rather, I believe it’s a result of Christians’ incorrect interpretation of the nature of our Creator — and refusal to admit they don’t know these things.

I’ve enjoyed your feedback, ColtsFan, and thank you.

These experiences stopped after she started to work with the lepers and it sounds as if she never adjusted. I wonder what kind of personality she had as a girl and young woman? Perhaps much of her faith was based on, or rewarded by, a certain type of emotional experience. When God stopped speaking directly to her, she suffered. Without the frequent emotional reinforcement, she doubted her faith and her God.

If you believe in saints, etc., then you might believe that her visions and voices were from God. If not, you might believe that she was likely over-emotional and suggestible or that she was hallucinating. She believed the experiences were real and she mourned their loss for the rest of her life. It sounds as if she thought God had withdrawn from her because she lacked something.

If you believe in saints, etc., then you might believe that God was testing her or asking her to experience the suffering of Christ. It seems as if she tried to tell herself these things but it doesn’t seem to have helped her feel better.

Meaning no disrespect, but perhaps she would have done better on anti-depressants.

Most Christians, even the most devout, do not hear God’s voice or have visions. Most of us live in the here and now with hope for a better future beyond this earthly existence. Some try to understand things based on emotion, some use reason; probably most of us rely on a mixture of both. Most of us feel doubt and question our beliefs at times.

I judge Mother Theresa on her work. God can judge her soul.

Yes, if god existed, your statements would be true, but I used the capital God for a reason. In English grammar, God, denotes the Christian God and not just any god.

Get stuffed, Esthier.

I capitalize the noun out of respect for MY God… the Creator of life… which may or not be Christian…(which I also capitlize out of respect for its adherents, as I capitalize Mormon, Jew, and even Muslim), the capital letter G is not trademarked by Christianity.

And you can’t win a theological argument by referring to capitalization.

I think all religions would be a lot more persuasive if they allowed for the idea that God occasionally lets us down. But almost by definition, they can’t.

Allahpundit on September 1, 2007 at 10:02 PM

The Psalms are full of pillars of faith who expressed serious doubt, painful disapointments and utter confusion. One particualr Psalmist even says “my only friends are darkness and the grave”.

About Hitch…Couldn’t it be construed that because he is taking periods of doubt in Teresa’s life, and then extrapolating that she was then an atheist, that he is putting himself in a place to judge her Christianity. Something that on another thread we were told was the sort of thing done by “bigots.” If she said she was a Christian, despite her moments (or, years) of doubt, isn’t the argument that we should merely accept that?

I mean, Allah – the other day you said something to the effect of “once again we see how much the Christians love each other,” when we were debating Mormonism. Is it ok for Hitch to question someone else’s faith because he is an atheist…and off limits for me, because I am a Christian?

I seriously would like to know.

HOWEVER, he also claims that her questioning her faith makes her ‘atheist’. So if she was atheist all this time doing all these bad things, you could not indict the church for things that Hitchens considers a blight on Catholisism because he argues she wasn’t Catholic – the evidence would be against atheism as a ‘good thing’.

He has been on CSPAN for 3 hours. I was going to call in, but then he characterized Billy Graham as a bad man who lied to millions of people and took their money. The only reason he classifies Graham as a liar is because Hitchens doesn’t believe the Gospel. It is fair enough that he doesn’t believe the Gospel, but saying someone is lying for preaching the written Gospel is completely disingenuous. I would have gone ballistic on his penchant to HATE people tied to religion.

His HATE for religion clouds his view of what these people are doing. Hitchens himself makes money spreading his views. How would that be different than what Billy Graham did, but they weren’t Graham’s views, they were in the BIBLE.

Billy Graham brought the Gospel of Jesus Christ to people in FREE ‘crusades’ around the world. He never charged a penny for attendance in his gatherings. He never hurt anyone, he never said anything bad about anyone. He merely went around the world telling people about Jesus Christ as it is written in the Bible. It is hypocritical of Hitchens being angry at Graham for making money telling people his thoughts.

Anyway, I’m sure that such an old and public figure will have a few statements he might wish to take back. And I’m sure that people will vilify a good man for ‘support’ of their argument that Christians make mistakes.

Hitchens loves to say that atheists can be as kind as any religious person. . . yet he doesn’t also say that atheists can also be as bad. He doesn’t also say that having religion CAN BE a good thing. He concludes that all religion is bad. He feels a need to spread his own religion of atheism. If he wants all religions to be banned, his ideology is not different from a religion such as Islam that wants all the world religions to be banned except Islam.

Fortunately for atheism there aren’t texts or documents that espouse violent conversion to atheism. . . but if it is left to the desires of Hitchens, those manifestos should be here soon.

I think all religions would be a lot more persuasive if they allowed for the idea that God occasionally lets us down. But almost by definition, they can’t.

Allahpundit on September 1, 2007 at 10:02 PM

AP, I’m a Christian. I do not belong to a religion or a church really. And yes, you can be Christian and not do so. I attended various churches when I was younger and now it’s just a few times a year maybe..been awhile. This is where it is sorta sad to see people that might be interested in a relationship with God but are turned off by churches and the like. Some people get caught up in pomp and circumstance and rituals and give credence to man and lose sight of God.

It isn’t in a Christians realm to tell you and others that God is a liar and his bible is a liar by saying he lets us down. If you are a Christian, you believe God is who he said he was. If you think God lets people down, maybe you should tell him then. Maybe he’ll have an answer for you. I’m not being smart aleck here at all when I say that in the previous two sentences, he talks to us in various ways over various things and you never know when you’ll hear him nudge you in a direction.