This is the tactic of the intellectual coward.

Back in the days… oh going back to old Usenet debates, I learned early on that in internet debates, it is bad form to question someone else’s facts, figures or arguments without providing your own. Now, as I’ve said, I’ve come to expect little from prohibitionists. They are often graceless, dishonest, sloppy, and without a modicum of etiquette. I’ve tried to provide verifiable links to objective sources where you have asked for them. Now, take a stab at a little honesty, and do the same.

So, please:

Links to the “Poppy Cartel” and it’s alleged coup;

Links to where organized crime has infiltrated legitimate opium or cocaine production;

Links to where pre-prohibition drug production facilities were entirely under the control of criminal enterprises;

Links to where organized crime successfully muscled in on legitimate alcohol producers post-prohibition;

Links proving that the Mexican drug czar’s office is no longer under cartel control;

Links proving that criminal organizations, rather than legitimate business, controlled opium, cocaine, or cannabis trade in the US prior to prohibition;

Links that indicate, in any way shape or form, organized criminal cartels have a competitive advantage over drug firms that currently manufacture cocaine or opiates;

Links indicating which countries have put drugs on the same legal par as alcohol;

Links indicating that criminal organizations had as large a share of the opium market as British East India.

I’ll wait, buth I think both of us know you can’t do it.

You have obviously never looked at the infiltration of such drugs into EUROPE, where many of them are legal.

Please name a country in Europe where cocaine, heroin, or cannabis is legal. I mean, where you can buy heroin, cocaine, or cannabis as legally as you can purchase a beer.

There are none. Doctors can prescribe them, but they can do the same with cocaine here. That doesn’t make it legal.

Instead, you mindlessly attack my person and insult me.

Why is that?

Becasue you are intellectually dishonest. I need no other reason.

How do you know the legal businesses will overcome a market TRADITIONALLY DOMINATED by the cartels?

Where the drug business is legal, be it legal opiates, or legal cocaine, legitimate firms control the market, with no apparent participation by organized crime. I have provided you links that clearly demonstrate where, both currently and historically, legal drug firms need not worry about organized crime, at least no more than any other firm does. Now, if you would care to provide evidence that organized crime does in fact control the legal opiate or cocaine trade, feel free to do so. But i don’t think you can, and frankly, I don’t even think you’ll try.

You have obviously never studied the Chinese Opium trade or the Poppy Cartel.

I have studied the Chinese opium problem enough to know that the British East india Company, as legitimate an organization as there was on Earth, controlled the trade. From PBS:

1750

The British East India Company assumes control of Bengal and Bihar, opium-growing districts of India. British shipping dominates the opium trade out of Calcutta to China.

and;

1793

The British East India Company establishes a monopoly on the opium trade. All poppy growers in India were forbidden to sell opium to competitor trading companies.

No mythical “Poppy Cartel”… no, the British East India Company. Along with the British Levant, they controlled the opium trade. True, there were smugglers, but they didn’t carry anywhere near the weight of these legitimate firms. If you disagree, please provide a link.

Well, in case you didn’t notice, this thread, and my comments, were about the Mexican cartels. In my experience, cross-thread contamination is a tactic used by the intellectually dishonest to try to appear to win an argument they are losing.

Of course, I expect little else from prohibitionists. My experience has taught me they often are lacking in etiquette and honesty. And you have done nothing to change my mind on that count.

They are corrupt, yes, but are they entirely dominated, or have they actually been fighting back?

I’m curious… at what point does corruption slip into domination? Personally, when I see Presidents and Drug Czars in the pockets of someone, I think that line has been crossed.

But clearly you have a higher tolerance for corruption than I do. As a prohibitionist, that goes without saying.

You have not attacked my main thesis that the Prohibition Model does not apply here.

I think it is quite clear, that by pointing out the misinformation you have foisted upon the readers of this board, that I have.

Obviously, somebody hasen’t studied Pablo Escobar and the “Golden Traingle” of Indochina enough.

The misspellings aside, as far as I can tell, if Pablo Escobar tried to compete in the legal cocaine business, Mallinckrodt would have kicked his teeth in, economically. At least they were when they were providing pharmaceutical grade cocaine for $1.80/gram. Likewise, the Burma thugs would have to be able to supply heroin for $0.65/dose, which they have, as of yet, been incapable of doing.

The issue is not merely about the MEXICAN drug trade (though that is a large part of it), but about the Colombian/Venezuelan trade, the Middle Eastern Trade

and…

Odd, because I think most would understand that I was reffering to the posters on the OTHER THREAD. If you have trouble finding them, a few to get you started include “Free Constitution” and “dogsoldier.”

According to Consumers Union report on Licit and Illicit Drugs”

Most of the opium consumed in the United States during the nineteenth century was legally imported. Morphine was legally manufactured here from the imported opium. But opium poppies were also legally grown within the United States.

So, once again, are you misinformed, or are you a liar.

Perhaps. They- in varying forms and organizations- HAVE been able to do it for over a century.

Once again, you are either lying or grossly misinformed. American supply of
opiates, cocaine, and cannabis was above board.

Perhaps. They- in varying forms and organizations- HAVE been able to do it for over a century.

Once again, you are either lying or grossly misinformed. American supply of
opiates, cocaine, and cannabis was above board. According to Consumers Union report on Licit and Illicit Drugs”

Most of the opium consumed in the United States during the nineteenth century was legally imported. Morphine was legally manufactured here from the imported opium. But opium poppies were also legally grown within the United States.

So, once again, are you misinformed, or are you a liar.

Obviously, somebody hasen’t studied Pablo Escobar and the “Golden Traingle” of Indochina enough.

The misspellings aside, as far as I can tell, if Pablo Escobar tried to compete in the legal cocaine business, Mallinckrodt would have kicked his teeth in, economically. At least they were when they were providing pharmaceutical grade cocaine for $1.80/gram. Likewise, the Burma thugs would have to be able to supply heroin for $0.65/dose, which they have, as of yet, been incapable of doing.

Um, because the resources of the Federales can outpace those of a single cartel, the cartels are already at each others’ throats, an alliance will be fraught with distruct and unease, the Mexican Army DOES have Armor-piercing rounds, and the central government has not grown so corrupt as to simply hand over the reigns of power yet?

You (deliberately?) missed my point. My opinion is that one of the cartels has already taken over the government, and is using their resources to try to wipe out the other cartels.

Can I prove this? No. But I would challenge you to disprove it. Given the height that the cartels have reached in the government (e.g., the Mexican drug czar), such a supposition is not off the map.

And for that reference in particular, I was referring to the Era of Mexico 1878-1920, where first Diaz and than vairous groups fighting for control openly sold “plants” North of the Rio Grande, and during the ban continued to do so to a lesser extent while shifting emphasis to shipping them to Europe.

Link?

And even if that is true NOW, who is to say they couldn’t LATER. Remember, such drugs are not illegal the WORLD over, and even in such lenient places as the Netherlands, the authorities have noticed the encroachment of illegal groups onto legit operations.

Please give an example of a country where heroin, cocaine, or cannabis are legal for recreational use. Hint: All of those three are, in fact, illegal in the Netherlands.

Once again, you are talking out of your arse.

The ONLY advantage they have? What about years of experience,

As many years of experience as SmithKline has making opiates? I don’t think so.

a largely skilled and experienced work force,

As skilled or experienced as SmithKline’s? Once again, i don’t think so.

control over the producers

Control over the Tasmanian opium producers? I don’t think so.

and openings to the market both here and in Europe?

You mean the cartels have been doing business with RightSource, Walgreens, and Wal-mart? Or are you saying that the Crips and Bloods would have a competitive advantage over these outlets?

Once again, you are talking nonsense.

Once again, do your homework.

This would be in spite of the close bases of the cartels, the degree to which they have hardened in previous conflicts, their CAPITAL D Dominance of the market for 120+ years, and their previous expertise in slipping through the law?

You truly have more faith in human nature than I.

No. It’s that I have more faith (and understanding of the economics) than you.

They don’t dominate the market, as I have proven. Where legitimate opium and coca are produced, there is no evidence of mafia involvement. Perhaps you would care to link to where the Tasmanian government is paying mafia protection, but I don’t think you can.

THAT is the muscle illegal groups have over legal ones. They are not afaid to murder, to torture, and to steal to keep their place on the market, and I have no doubt you could find plenty of similar examples from the Prohibition or the end of Prohibition (where the crooks tried to put the genie back in the bottle by intimidating legal businesses).

First, I doubt that there were many examples of the mafia trying to muscle in on legal production of alcohol. But of course, you are the one crying about PROOF, so why don’t you provide some examples of it.

Second, the fact is that the mafia did not successfully take over the alcohol business after prohibition, a fact that you have spent hundreds of words trying to dodge. The mark of someone intellectually dishonest.

But after legalization, the sides are switched: the CROOKS are the ones with market dominance, and the LEGAL GROWER AND DISTRIBUTOR is the one who must scale THEIR territory.

You don’t even know what economies of scale are, do you?

Again, forget our costs, how is the lack of legalization (remember, this is denying the legal market to them) HELPING their profits? If anything, it forces them to work under the cover of night, smuggling things in from down South or the Far East (which is costly), forcing them to a limited number (albiet a large one), and generally screwing them up.

Once again, your ignorance of economics is unbounded.

How it helps their profits is by granting them a price support, in the form of forming a barrier to entry for other organizations into the market.

You’re right… we can forget our costs (for now), and just focus on the fact that it is illegal. These cartels do not have to compete with legitimate industry, as legit industry is barred by their corporate charters from entry into the recreational drug market. Therefore, thee cartels do not have to compete with Drugstore.com, that can provide medical morphine at $0.65/ dose, and can instead sell an equivalent amount of recreational heroin for $10-20.

Will be similar to a legalization (where most of the prime growing conditions and pre-existing facilities have ALWAYS BEEN OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY, and futhermroe were ALREADY under criminal control BEFORE the drug laws were passed).

Somebody needs to brush up on their history.

You are either grossly misinformed, or a liar.

As I pointed out to you above, opium and coca supplies for legitimate production, while outside the country, are not under criminal control. They are under the control of the Indian, Australian, and Turkish governments, and purchased by GlaxoSmithKline, Johnson and Johnson, Johnson Matthey, among others.

History indeed. Someone needs to brush up on the current situation.

Greviously ignoring tripe like the “PPoppy Cartel” using LEGAL PROFITS from such plants up North to fund a coup DOWN AT HOME.

Link to “Poppy Cartel”, and their alleged coup, please.

By “Colombia first,” do you mean in 1925, with the failed coup using legal funds?

No, I’m referring to more recent incursions, like Ernesto Samper being bought by the Cali Cartel.

Of course , I don’t know if that’s worse than Jesus Gutierrez Rebollo, Mexico’s Drug Czar, working hand in hand with Amado Carrillo-Fuentes. Either incident backs my theories though.

Roche, SmithKline, and ParkeDavis would likely have set up their nascent and legal opium/Mary Jane/ whatever farms (which, by themselves, I have no problem with), and after a few months in business (if that), they would have gotten a nice “casual visit” from a few strange men (in truth representing groups like the Yakuza or the “Poppy Cartel” looking for another supplier but NOT another competetor) who offer a business proposition: you buy from them, and ONLY from them.

These firms (or others like them), are already buying opium for legitimate use, and are not buying from cartels. They are buying from legitimate sources, and there is no reason to believe that would change for heroin produced for recreational purposes.

Once again, you are caught talking out of your arse.

So WHY THE HELL HAVE YOU NEVER COUNTERED IT BEFORE?

First of, fix your Caps Lock.

Second of all, I have. I’ve only been here a few months, but I’m sure I’ve destroyed your arguments before. Just like I’m doing now.

The opium trade is an ongoing thing, and we have no problem studying it now. Who is best prepared to meet those demands? How about Tasmania:

Tasmania is the world’s largest producer of opium alkaloids for the pharmaceutical market. Standards placed on the industry by the Federal, State and US governments are stringent with very high levels of scientific expertise necessary.

Funny, I don’t see Mexican drug lords strongarming American pharmaceutical firms into buying their opium from them for the legal market, as you claim would happen here:

Similar numbers can be found for heroin, as Dr. Wendell Rosevear says in Drugs In Perspective:

Currently the profit margin is 1,000 – 3,000% with opium being worth US$90/kg at the farm and street heroin being worth US$290,000/kg at 40% purity.

Do your homework.

This is backed up by Under The Influence, which claims that as of the mid 1980’s, Mallinckrodt Corp was supplying legal cocaine for $1800/kilo, or $1.80/gram. This is backed up by The Economist, which states that cocaine can be purchased for $2/ gram in Colombia, where the risk premium associated with it is practically zero. Compare this with retail prices in the US of $110/gram, as a result of the risk premium provided by prohibition.

The 5000% was an estimate the William F. Buckley used in his arguments for legalization.

This is perhaps the moment to note that the pharmaceutical cost of cocaine and heroin is approximately 2 per cent of the street price of those drugs.

The $100 billion figure represents 1/4 of what The United Nations estimates is worldwide retail expenditure on drug use. I used 1/4, since that is approximately the US’s share of world GDP. Frankly, I think the number is higher, since we have a far greater share than that of disposable GDP, but likewise, not all of that goes to the cartels.

Hello ;) Thanks heaps for this!… if anyone else has anything, it would be much appreciated. Great website Super Piano Links http://www.klavier.m256.net Enjoy!…

I saw this domain for sale, according to the appraisals, its worth over $5000.00 usd. It has just the perfect amount of keywords….

There’s only American real estate on the moon.
They’re almost forty years too late.

Definitely time to claim our share of the moon dust before China or Russia beats us to it…

But I wish we were still going there and already had a base there

Kini on August 31, 2007 at 11:39 PM

Me too…

Great nostalgic link too – another one I’m sure AFP has mis-translated at one time or another, to something like “All Your Bouillabaisse Are Belong To Us”… *Boo-yah Baisse-baisse-baisse*

P.S. 100th Quote of the Day so far – awesome :-)

Cool link from NASA: http://spaceflight1.nasa.gov/realdata/tracking/index.html

Where is the Space Station, and sometimes the Shuttle, at this time?

Texas Nick 77 on September 1, 2007 at 9:59 AM

The link I gave:

http://spaceflight1.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/cities/skywatch.cgi?country=United+States

is the main index for United States. Click on your state, then click on your city, and view the details of upcoming sighting opportunities (ISS is not visible every night! Has to be at sunset/sunrise, while you are in darkness abd ISS still in sunlight) You can also enter lat/lon on another page.

For San Francico, for example:

THE FOLLOWING ISS SIGHTINGS ARE POSSIBLE FROM FRI AUG 31 TO WED SEP 12
SATELLITE LOCAL DURATION MAX ELEV APPROACH DEPARTURE
DATE/TIME (MIN) (DEG) (DEG-DIR) (DEG-DIR)

ISS Fri Sep 07/06:03 AM 2 14 10 above SSE 13 above ESE
ISS Sun Sep 09/05:13 AM 3 13 10 above SSE 11 above ESE
ISS Mon Sep 10/05:35 AM 2 47 28 above SSW 33 above E
ISS Tue Sep 11/05:57 AM 4 42 19 above W 12 above NE
ISS Wed Sep 12/04:47 AM

The motor designer was a friend of my much-into-the-future father-in-law, who was a commercial airliner electrical power desing/distribution expert. When this gentleman retired Garrett gave him one of the prototypes of his own creation as a gift. I later saw it in his Palos Verdes home. It was a relatively small piece, for the miracle it performed.

To many commenters, above – thanks for all the hearty laughs.