Doctor fired over hospitals’ illegal alien care policies
posted at 9:20 am on August 28, 2007 by Bryan
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Dr. Gene Rogers spoke out against California’s policies of providing free health care to illegal aliens at the expense of poor Americans who are being squeezed out of the system. It cost him his job.
In a two-sentence memo to Dr. Rogers, the county’s Health and Human Services director, Lynn Frank, informed him that he was fired, but thanked him for his services. No reason for his termination was offered, but then he didn’t really expect one. “Sacramento County knowingly violated state and federal laws, misappropriated taxpayer revenues and diverted funds designated for indigent citizens to pay for services delivered to illegal aliens,” Dr. Rogers said. “And they did so even as they cut the budget.”
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Ironically, when Dr. Rogers, 67, took the position of medical director for the indigent services program back in 1999, he arrived in the Central Valley with hardly a clue (let alone an opinion) about illegal immigration and its impact on social services. He had one goal: to provide the best care possible for those who need it most.
As the years went by, however, that egalitarian perspective began to be tinged with cynicism as he watched poor citizens get squeezed out of the system even as illegal immigrants gleefully manipulated it, all while bureaucrats facilitated the rampant violations of the very laws they were entrusted to enforce.
“I’ve seen cases and case histories of patients who essentially have come up from Mexico for the express purpose of being treated here, and then leaving to return home,” Dr. Rogers said. “I’ve watched illegal immigrants brazenly demand free, non-emergency health care that was meant for our poorest citizens. I’ve heard them and their families complain. They feel entitled to it.” Dr. Rogers filed a lawsuit in 2003 after county officials “stonewalled” him when he questioned why they were cutting budgets while still providing non-emergency medical treatment to people who have no legal right to be in the country.
The lawsuit is currently under appeal in federal court, but its impact was felt in the state capital, causing a nervous Latino Legislative Caucus in California last year to push through a bill by state Sen. Deborah Ortiz that explicitly allows counties to “opt” to provide non-emergency medical care to illegal immigrants. Sacramento County also responded, Dr. Rogers said, by seeking to alienate him from his prior relationships with county medical staff and by methodically preparing to fire him — with a little humiliation thrown in along the way. On one occasion, Dr. Rogers said, he was forced to sit through a staff meeting in which his supervisors asked case-management nurses one by one if they had any issues or problems with him. None said they did, but it was a humiliating experience.
“I am concerned that you continue to focus on patients’ immigration status,” Program Manager Nancy Gilberti said in a negative work review, “which is outside your and [the] program’s purview.” Mrs. Gilberti’s remarks reflect a prevailing culture that has emerged in government: a culture that will not tolerate anyone who dares to draw a distinction between American citizens and illegal immigrants. It is a culture that now pervades police departments, public schools and universities, social services and health care.
This attitude is apparently becoming pervasive, though it’s not universal yet. A year ago, Dallas County, TX decided to bill Mexico for the millions of taxpayer dollars it was shelling out to pay for medical services for illegal aliens. At that time, the bill stood at at least $15 million.
I’m sure Mexico got a check in the mail immediately.
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He was fired by a woman named Lynn. Does not surprise me. Is it just me, or are women named Lynn seemingly of the leftist variety? The nemesis of common sense, and common decency, can be found in a name it would seem.
jihadwatcher on August 28, 2007 at 9:30 AM
No illegal deserves anything but enough medical attention, in an emergency only, to get them back across the border where their own embassy and people can take it from there.
Period.
profitsbeard on August 28, 2007 at 9:31 AM
Sweet deal.
(Pssss. I know where you can get fake matricular cards. lemme know)
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 9:34 AM
Hey, my senior pastor is named Lynn. She’s really sweet, and very bright. She’s a leftist.
Jaibones on August 28, 2007 at 9:44 AM
Ya know, more and more good people are really getting tired of this crap. I’m trying to remember what happened the last time we were taxed but not represented. You can almost smell it coming.
PatrickS on August 28, 2007 at 9:45 AM
If nothing else, perhaps a tightening of illegal policies MAY force Mexico to get it’s own act together. I am wondering if Mexico is too poor to provide services for it’s people or just too corrupt to funnel money into these services. Living in the northeast tends to insulate one from these kinds of problems. I have read that Mexico is very corrupt and is so used to it that they think nothing about it anymore. Is that true? What about people in southern Mexico(far from the border)? Are they less dependent on the US for jobs and health care?
jeanie on August 28, 2007 at 9:45 AM
jeanie-
Walk away from the computer. There are people in your house eating your food and sleeping in your bed, and have their hand in your cookie-jar– and all uninvited. For the most part, they are nice people, just hungry and tired and poor.
What do you do first? Wonder what their home lives were like, or get them out of your house and improve your home security?
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 9:54 AM
Is it just me, or are women named Lynn seemingly of the leftist variety?
Lynn Cheney.
harrison on August 28, 2007 at 9:55 AM
It won’t be too long now before illegal aliens and their supporters have petition drives to recall elected officials who oppose illegal immigration and the enforcement of existing laws.
Yep, that’s bound to happen very soon.
madmonkphotog on August 28, 2007 at 9:57 AM
You are represented. But so apparently are the illegals. They have representation without taxation. Prob. was a translation error from English to Spanish.
smell that smell. god help us
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 9:58 AM
Patrick: I agree with you. I think the problem is that the majority is not expressing their views loudly enough or consistently enough. They are sick of this crap. I reside in Redwood City, CA and there are a ton of illegals close to my neighborhood. The citizens have been expressing their outrage through the very local daily publications and local websites, but I am convinced they really don’t know what to do about it. I think they have just given up because we are in a “sanctuary” area. San Mateo Sheriff’s Dept. just stated they will not enforce the law. From what I’ve read locally, there is total distrust of any official here at any level doing anything about it. It is almost as if the citizenry feels they’ve lost the battle.
mimi1220 on August 28, 2007 at 9:58 AM
Multi-culturalism lies at the bottom of this mind set, these people believe they are better than you because they provide the services whether the illegal’s are entitled to it or not. It’s easy to be “charitable” with other people’s money, but of course that is not really charity at all, in reality its theft. The taxpayers have provided money to render help to the needy and these administrators are misappropriating that money by giving it to others. It’s a betrayal of their duties, but they feel good about it, at your expense, while those the money and services were intended for, do without. It’s an outrage, these people should be fired, not Dr. Rodgers.
Maxx on August 28, 2007 at 9:59 AM
As a 45 year San Diego resident, I will tell you that corruption is absolutely institutionalized there. The government is basically a narcokleptocracy. I will also say that the Mexican people are generally warm and kind. Abject poverty is nation-wide and is what drives people here, so where in Mexico they are has little bearing on their coming to the US.
As far as people south of the southern Mexican border, well, they have to deal with the Mexican Army to get here, and squalid detention camps if they fail to slip past the army. The sad part of this story is that Mexico has vast natural resources (oil, mining, agriculture, etc.) that is not being tapped with any rigor.
If the US really wants to deal with the flood of illegals in a meaningful manner, we need to somehow drive Mexico to develop those resources, which will translate into millions of decent jobs.
PatrickS on August 28, 2007 at 10:05 AM
Dr. Gene Rogers = Hero of the People
whereas,
Nancy Gilberti = Traitor
Does the concept of Justice apply to Kalifornia?
Wuptdo on August 28, 2007 at 10:11 AM
The state government is greater that 3 to 1 Democrat. What’s your guess?
PatrickS on August 28, 2007 at 10:13 AM
Patrick-
I think the only reason you have been able to live comfortably in SD for 45 years, with a 3rd world nation barely a few miles away is because of rigid border enforcement in your area (fence and diversion to Arizona). Why should we deny that to your children and theirs?
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 10:14 AM
Well, Dad, it wasn’t always clamped down like that here. The region is permeated with people here illegally. Current “migration routes” certainly have shifted to the east, but our cup’s already pretty full here anyway.
Trust me, I still write my congressman frequently and clamor on about stronger border security, penalties to employers, etc.
PatrickS on August 28, 2007 at 10:22 AM
I won’t comment, because it would just get me banned from this board.
Tim Burton on August 28, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Patrick-
Maybe I didn’t make myself very clear. I meant to say that I don’t think reforming Mexico is in our ability. But that doesn’t mean we should have to accept the importation of their 3rd world issues. If we had done so in the past, your life in SD may have been much less pleasant.
Also, in the past, there were not vast entitlements awaiting illegals from Mexico, or such lax enforcement of the law here.
If we turned off the spigot of freebies, we could possibly leave the border as open as it historically has been.
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 10:30 AM
Jeanie, May I suggest climbing out from under your rock and going to the nearest emergency room. Last time I was there it was 90% people who didn’t even speak English. And I live in Boston.
Masscon on August 28, 2007 at 10:43 AM
Great find Bryan.
TheBigOldDog on August 28, 2007 at 10:44 AM
Overall Mexico is not a poor country. From what I can recall, its GDP is one of the world’s top 15. Its unemployment (officially, anyway) is a mere 3%. The trouble is that its wealth resides mostly with a small rich ruling class, with most of the rest being poor. In other words, it’s a relatively rich country that does not do much to provide for its poor. (Yikes! I sound like a lefty.) Instead they dump their poor on us.
My San Diego story: In 1995 I visited San Diego for a day, and then drove north on I-15. Some 10 miles north of the city limits, Border Patrol agents were literally standing across the northbound lanes, checking driver’s licenses. I don’t know if that was their standard policy, or they were looking for someone in particular.
Bigfoot on August 28, 2007 at 10:46 AM
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 10:46 AM
Hey did you catch the story in the Herald the other day about how bad Brockton hospital has become? The nurses are getting assaulted daily and the Hospital has been cited for not providing a safe work environment. If I find it, I’ll post a link.
TheBigOldDog on August 28, 2007 at 10:47 AM
Someone wrote the other day that “European” elites in Mexico and Central America were systematically cleansing their countries of their mestizo class by exporting them to the US.
Not sure what to say about that, other than it supports Bigfoot’s comments and is def. provocative.
JiangxiDad on August 28, 2007 at 10:49 AM
Northeast what? Come to Rhode Island. I was at the social security office last year and they hed to look to find someone who spoke English to help me and my 84 year old mother.
Wade on August 28, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Try researching an accurate number of Hospitals that have closed due to the heavy burden illegal aliens.
This Doctor being let go for exposing the fraud associated with providing care at all costs is surprising.
In L.A. county alone the number is in the hundreds of hospitals that have closed, in several communities there is no hospital at all and more closing all the time.
This is what universal health care is suppose to fix? Not, all of us together don’t have that much money.
Even after being forced to close from loses due to ‘indignant’ care cost directors refuse to blame the enormous costs of free health care for the foreign expeditionary forces invading this country for the lack of care for the rest of us.
They should be brought up on corruption charges.
Speakup on August 28, 2007 at 10:57 AM
The schools my kids go to are full to bursting and it isn’t because there’s a boom in the birth of American citizens, and I don’t mean anchor babies. And the reason that the school district(s) do nothing is that the more bodies they have, the more money they have to line their pockets. As far as medical care goes, both the hospitals and tax payers are being sucked dry and i don’t think any amount of rain will help.
Our country is disappearing before my eyes…my husband and I didn’t have two wonderful kids so that they could live in a third world cesspool.
Christine on August 28, 2007 at 11:12 AM
Not if you are an American.
infidel4life on August 28, 2007 at 11:13 AM
That is the inland border checkpoint. There’s another one on I-5 along the coast near Camp Pendleton. Illegals typically hop out of their rides south of there and hike quietly past the checkpoint, then reconnect with their rides. There are literally roadsigns of a man, woman and child holding hands and running, indicating “beware of people on the freeway.”
PatrickS on August 28, 2007 at 11:17 AM
Get used to it people. Look, everbody’s working. Unemployment is at it’s lowest in the history of our country. A majority of people can’t be raised to stop this ‘we are our brothers’ keeper’ crap. Everyone is too busy with their toys and vacations and stuff to mobilze congress. Even the President is for the illegals. Liberals utterly control the education system from top to bottom. And now they control the health care system. If they need more money for illegals’ health care, they raise the property tax or the sales tax. Texas brags about spending 6 billion on their illegals last year. There’s plenty of money – right now – everybody’s working. Tancredo and a few others are trying desperately to warn us and change things back to what’s always been right, no pun intended. Not enough of the tax paying people are paying attention. They don’t care right now. Everyone who votes has plenty of money, no one except a very few are in hardship. I never thought ‘Atlas Shrugged’ would come to fruitation in our wonderful country. We are not ‘our brothers’ keeper’, at least not to the extent that breaks us. One thing that will change things is, unfortunately, a recession or depression. The taxpayers get out of work and they get hungry. There definitely will not be enough. Who feeds and cares for the illegals then? What happpens then? What if it doesn’t happen? Crazy, maybe. But interesting, huh.
countywolf on August 28, 2007 at 11:22 AM
From the SacBee
Doctor fighting county is fired
By Ed Fletcher – Bee Staff Writer
Published 12:00 am PDT Saturday, August 25, 2007
The Sacramento County physician fighting to end the county’s practice of providing medical care to illegal immigrants was fired earlier this month.
Dr. Gene Rogers said he was terminated Aug. 6 “in retaliation for whistle-blowing.”
A county spokeswoman, citing privacy rules, said she couldn’t comment on why Rogers was let go.
In his 2003 suit, Rogers alleged the county was putting public funds at risk by providing nonemergency medical care to undocumented residents — in violation of federal law.
The case, in which Rogers represented himself, was dismissed largely on technical grounds. He is appealing.
Late last year, Rogers said, the county changed his job description and gave him unreasonably difficult objectives.
In the months that followed, he said, the county prepared to fire him by giving him unfavorable reviews.
http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/343800.html
Speakup on August 28, 2007 at 11:23 AM
Wow, i did some research and found this video of the doctor on one of his calls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5_cHLLt_2U
Vincenzo on August 28, 2007 at 11:43 AM
(content warning for one or two curse words in above video!)
Vincenzo on August 28, 2007 at 11:44 AM
Attention, folks: This is why more of US need to go to law school…a lot of law schools now offer evening programs…if you aren’t part of the system that makes the rules, they will never change. It only takes 4 years at night (if you go summers) and law school is a much better way to spend your free time than watching tv. That doc should NOT be representing himself…he needs a lawyer that cares about the future of our country to represent him.
This is the gift that we should be leaving to our children and grandchildren: a country in better shape than the way we found it. WE have to fix this…the sheeple (sheep people) who vote do not pay attention…WE have to get involved.
JustTruth101 on August 28, 2007 at 12:04 PM
Accessing this video brought up a dangerous site warning.
Speakup on August 28, 2007 at 12:05 PM
What a clear and accurate statement of what’s happening. Taxpayer revenues are being misappropriated and diverted from the purposes for which they were intended. This is what is happening in public school systems as well as health care. Of course they had to fire him – he was accusing the hospital and the state of criminal activity! I hope he doesn’t stay quiet.
reine.de.tout on August 28, 2007 at 12:13 PM
We’re paying for our own demographic displacement.
PRCalDude on August 28, 2007 at 12:18 PM
I appreciate your sentiments, but this country is essentially going to be Latino in about 20 years. Just look at California.
PRCalDude on August 28, 2007 at 12:19 PM
“The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers”. – (Henry VI, Act IV, Scene II).
TheBigOldDog on August 28, 2007 at 12:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ
Watch this and see the future.
right2bright on August 28, 2007 at 12:30 PM
1st I remember seeing this infusion into American society that made me wonder “what the he$$” when I was living in San Diego early ‘70…amercian medical vans/buses would go to Tijuana and pick up ill or infected mexicans and bring to S.D. for treatment then take em back. I asked myself then, “what is that all about”? We can see where that ended up. Now the patients come here and demand what they don’t have coming to them. These politicians need to be removed from office and NOW!
Our governments lack of willingness to uphold our laws give me plenty of incentive to purchase more 2nd amendment rights.
oldernslower on August 28, 2007 at 12:56 PM
right2bright on August 28, 2007 at 12:30 PM
that will wake a person up…possibly even a liberal open boarder liming.
Going to send a copy to my congressman and senators.
Thank You
oldernslower on August 28, 2007 at 1:15 PM
Maybe we should all renounce our citizenship and apply for free health care.
Kini on August 28, 2007 at 1:32 PM
Thanks Jorge.
pat on August 28, 2007 at 1:34 PM
Immigration certainly works both ways.
PRCalDude on August 28, 2007 at 1:36 PM
Mimi; Is Peking Chef still on the corner with Dennis Nelson’s?
To keep from hijacking the thread, you ain’t seen illegals there like we see here (AZ). When we first moved from RC in 2000, this place was still mostly farmland. Not any more, and the illegals have come out of the woodwork!
Jimnospin on August 28, 2007 at 1:37 PM
Also on Rt. 8. On a recent drive from Phoenix to San Diego a couple weeks ago, had to slam on the brakes twice on this road to avoid hitting someone running, in pitch blackness, from the south side of the highway across 3 lanes of traffic to a waiting vehicle parked on the shoulder. Reported it to the Border Patrol checkpoint a few miles up the road.
AZ_Mike on August 28, 2007 at 1:48 PM
I THINK YOU’VE FOUND THE ANSWER! ELIMINATE BREAKS!
Actually, That’s what I do. My family hasn’t had Health Ins in 3 years. When we go to the
spanish language classEmergency room, I tell the receptionist to put us down as Illegals.Masscon on August 28, 2007 at 2:19 PM
Well…didn’t mean to denigrate the problems caused by Spanish speaking people in the northeast. My quest, if you will, was to find out why Mexico cannot or will not provide these services for its people. It still is.
jeanie on August 28, 2007 at 2:37 PM
Oops!!! Patrick, I missed your post before. Thanks for the info.
jeanie on August 28, 2007 at 2:42 PM
Let me tell you a story about a family member of mine. She was a hard working citizen of this country, who worked for a small town pharmacy that did not provide health insurance. She decided, like many Americans that she was in good health, and did not want to spend her own money on monthly health insurance. Well, as occurs in life, she developed a progressive and deadly disease, pulmonary fibrosis. The only cure for this disease is a lung transplant, but in the meantime things like oxygen and other drugs (though there are few and are very expensive, 5000 dollars per month), that can help postpone the progression of the disease. Now, when she went to the doctor after she started having symptoms, and was diagnosed with this disease, she went, as many Americans do, to apply for Medicaid, since at this point she definitely could not afford the high risk health insurance. She qualified due to the severity of her condition, but was told SHE WOULD HAVE TO BE PUT ON A WAITING LIST AND WOULD NOT GET BENEFITS FOR 18-24 MONTHS! Now, she was a good, hard working, taxpaying citizen for her entire life, but she never did get any benefits from the system our government has set up, supposedly to help the citizens of our country who are down and out and need coverage. She never got a dime from the government, for which she had paid into for over 30 years, because she died before the 18 months were up. Now I ask you, how pathetic is it that this is how we treat our own citizens, but we pay for these illegals to get free health care, care they have never paid into for by tax dollars. I tell you, it is sick. People think the illegals don’t make a difference in this country except “to provide work at lower costs than others would”, but I tell you, they are poisoning our country, taking resources, and giving us nothing in return. This is a huge problem, and we need to send them back from whence they came.
Trtle2001 on August 28, 2007 at 3:35 PM
from the illegal loving
The New York Times
Los Angeles Emergency Care Crisis Deepens
By NICK MADIGAN
Published: August 21, 2004
LOS ANGELES, Aug. 20 – A crisis in Los Angeles County’s emergency health care system became more acute this week with the announcement that the oldest hospital in the San Fernando Valley would close by Dec. 31, officials said here Friday.
News of the closing of the institution, the Northridge Hospital Medical Center campus in the Van Nuys section, which opened in 1929, follows by a week the closing of the emergency room at Elastar Community Hospital in the East Los Angeles neighborhood.
Advertisement
In the last two years, four other emergency rooms, most in low-income areas, have closed in the county, primarily because of the high cost of treating thousands of uninsured people, officials said.
“We’re mandated to treat anyone who comes in through those doors, regardless of their ability to pay,” Tracey Veal, a spokeswoman for the Northridge hospital, said.
Ms. Veal estimated that the hospital had spent $13 million on so-called charity care in the fiscal year that ended on June 30. In addition, she said, the hospital faced $16 million bill for state-ordered earthquake retrofitting and could not afford it.
Since 1990, 70 hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers have closed in California, a state whose emergency and trauma system is overwhelmed and underfinanced, health officials say.
“This is definitely cause for alarm,” Carol Meyer, director of the Los Angeles County Emergency Medical Services Agency, said on Friday in an interview. “The whole system is more and more tenuous.”
A severe shortage of nurses is adding to the distress, Ms. Meyer said, as new state regulations actually require adding nurses. The rules, starting on Jan. 1 and meant to be applied around the clock, say there must be no more than four patients per nurse in an emergency room. In intensive-care units, the ratio is two to one. In severe trauma cases, it is one to one, and in medical and surgical wards six to one.
“We are in real tough times here,” Ms. Meyer said. “I don’t know what the solution is going to be. The ultimate answer, of course, is money. It’s not going to change until somebody in a high position has a family member die because they couldn’t get treatment in an emergency room.”
Fewer and fewer doctors, she said, are willing to be on call to emergency rooms, given the high insurance premiums they must pay and, in many cases, the lack of reimbursement for treating the uninsured.
Ms. Meyer said 30 percent of the nine million people in the county were underinsured or had no medical insurance at all. Statewide, seven million people are uninsured, according to the California Medical Association.
“It used to be that physicians would build their practice by working in an emergency room,” said Ms. Meyer, who formerly instructed paramedics. “Now they do contracts with H.M.O.’s. They don’t need to be on call.”
The 500 hospitals in the state are “on the verge of a whole series of unraveling events,” said Dr. Jack Lewin, executive director of the California Medical Association, which represents the interests of the 35,000 doctors in the state.
Uncompensated health care, Dr. Lewin said, affects everyone in the system.
“No place is safe when you have large volumes of people who need care, but there’s no one to pay for it,” Dr. Lewin said. “Employers are increasingly forced to dump coverage of their employees and their dependents. The state used to bail us out, but no more.”
Jerry Conway, president of the 209-bed Northridge Hospital Medical Center, one of 42 such centers owned by Catholic Healthcare West in California, Arizona and Nevada, said the hospital has been losing $1 million a month for a year. The hospital, which delivers 250 babies a month and has 26,000 emergency-room visits a year, has worked out a plan to transfer much of its workload to Valley Presbyterian Hospital, a mile east, Mr. Conway said. Northridge Hospital’s sister center on Roscoe Boulevard, eight miles west, will stay open.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/21/national/21hospitals.html?ex=1188446400&en=71cf8ab104d84828&ei=5070
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Speakup on August 28, 2007 at 4:27 PM
Same problem here. Took my mother to the local ER several months ago. The crowd was SRO and not an English speaker in the lot. Oh yeah, Williamsburg, Virginia.
oldleprechaun on August 28, 2007 at 7:58 PM
I have had enough. Push me much further and I just may decide to hold a Boston Tea Party of some sort. And I strongly suspect that I am not the only one to believe (note: I did not say “feel;” I said BELIEVE) this way?
sanantonian on August 28, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Dr. Gene Rogers, you are a true patriot.
I’m sick of this going on in california…truly sick of it. We are being slowly taken over without guns…but by our own stupidity and liberal pcness craze. It’s sad.
Highrise on August 29, 2007 at 1:41 AM
Amen brother. And to the good Doctor who lost his job for speaking out, thank you. I lost my home to these illegals so there’s nothing they won’t take away from the unconnected. That’s right they can spot someone with connections in a hearthbeat they are brought up from birth like this and respect only the corrupt, don’t let them fool you with the religious stuff. A mexican/amer. on the Laura Ingraham radio show said most pray to Jesus as if he were a genie in a bottle and they are going to end up with some kind of PRIZE..and this lady was dead serious when she explained it on the radio..
Legions on August 29, 2007 at 8:14 AM
Just Remember the only job of the elected officials is to place as many family members into life time gov. Union jobs period..Once all have their Golden healthcare cards for life then why would they even care about anything else..(latter off to work)
Legions on August 29, 2007 at 8:35 AM
Mexican (and other illegals) will suck at this exposed teat until the milk is gone and then march our streets flying green and white demanding their right to more. Damn the fools who perpetuate this wrong doing, damn our legislators and God bless this embattled country.
Ernest on August 29, 2007 at 9:50 AM
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