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So because we know there is no God, we must not know the difference between right and wrong? Believe it or not, we do, and we don’t need a 2000 year-old book written by ??? to tell us either.

The Sinner on August 25, 2007 at 2:05 PM

Hitler thought he was right, and he was an atheist. Was he right or wrong? In his mind he was right. You can say he was wrong. Now try to justify your response as an atheist. Where is your moral authority?

Not believing in Gods and spirits and not really being dead when one is clearly dead is no more ridiculous than not believing in the Lock Ness monster or alien visitations or leprecons, probably a lot less.

MB4 on August 25, 2007 at 10:46 PM

Since you seem to be implying that you cannot believe in something that can’t be seen, touched or described with physical science, let’s play the reverse.

Do you believe in the mind? or justice? how about love? what about compassion, guilt, intellect, or reason? None of these things are addressed by physical science. And yet I believe in them. They are described accurately by the Bible, and born out in Christianity. I believe in them, and yet they are insubstantial. I believe in them because they are concepts and ideals that I have experienced in my own life… just like Jesus. He has changed my life… more than any physical manifestation.

And yet the physical sciences continue to support the claims made by the Bible. Jesus Christ was documented by ancient historians, and reams of documents within a few dozen years of his death. Believers died for their beliefs (at a time when witnesses to his works still would have been around). He fulfilled prophesies written hundreds of years before his birth, and testified to by the Dead Sea Scrolls (carbon dated over a hundred years before Christ’s birth). And when looking at this overwhelming mass of evidence, I cannot come to any other conclusion than Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and that he came to earth to redeem me.

And that is why I am a believer.

and why unbelievers find you intolerable is that you time and time again defend the actions of a God/Jesus that praises the killing of babies, raping of virgins, child sacrifice, slavery, animal sacrifice, … (snip idiotic rant) …frreal on August 26, 2007 at 7:32 AM

Ok, I’m going to address another of your ideas out of context… slavery.

I’m taking a Sunday school class on Exodus and we came across some slavery verses and decided to do some in-depth research.

There are three forms of “slavery”: 1) Chattel, 2) Foreigners, 3) Servanthood.

When we hear of slavery in America, we immediately think of chattel slavery… the practice of kidnapping people and selling them into slavery for profit, and then treating them like property. However, this is explicitly dealt with in the Bible. “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16)

The second form of slavery was allowed… the capturing of enemies fighting against Israel. These slaves served to help families deal with the loss of sons in war. However, even these slaves were to be treated humanely, and were given the opportunity to be redeem himself. In any case, these slaves were to be released upon the year of Jubilation. Slavery was never for life.

The third form of slavery was encouraged for economical reasons… servanthood. A person could sell himself into servanthood in order to pay a debt… either a debt taken on through normal means, or in the form of entrepreneurship. At the beginning of the seventh year, the servant was given his freedom… and payment. “If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the Lord your God has blessed you. (Deuteronomy 15:12-14)

I find it hard to believe that you’ve done any serious research on the subjects you mentioned. But this is a dead thread and I don’t have enough time tonight to address the rest of your rants.

I just don’t believe in the Bible God because I simply can’t fathom a God can be both mercyful and a happy killer of children… frreal on August 26, 2007 at 11:00 AM

I just went and read the passage you cited… and I cannot believe how out of context you took that verse. Did you even bother to read the verse before it?

7 Remember, O Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!”
8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us–
9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

The Psalmist here is not God, but a person undergoing God’s specific judgment of the Babylon captivity. The Edomites (who were related to the Isrealites) did not come to their aid when Jerusalem was besieged by the Babylonian army. In fact, they rejoiced when the city was destroyed. The phrase about the infants described their anguish from witnessing their own infants murdered, and crying out for a similar judgment against those who celebrated that barbarity.

To put it in modern perspective… 9/11 was a horrible experience for Americans… and yet half the world away, people celebrated and danced in the streets. How many of us that day wished that those celebrating people would experience the same thing that we had? How many of us whiched that mosques in Mecca be reduced to flaming crematoriums and that thousands would die?

Just because this reaction is included in the Bible doesn’t mean that God endorses it. Although in this case, it does fit some Old Testament ideas of justice. Should a society that stood by and celebrated such horrible barbarities, be judged themselves and experience the same barbarity that they celebrated? I believe that they should.

Regardless of our feelings, God keeps his own counsel and will decide how and when to judge. In this Psalm, the Bible simply records a grieving Psalmist crying out to God for justice.

Even wrote songs about it. Happy shall HE be.

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psalm 137: 8-9

Here’s a good rundown of the baby killing verses written by an evangelical minister (look up his testimony). BKen. When I first started on my road to deconversion I kept my bible handy and referenced every single one. Then I moved on to prophecies, errors, contradictions, absurdities. It was the moral atrocities that really got me though. Refute them … if you can. If you can’t then it’s time to step away from the athiests are moral degenerates argument and do a little introspection.

Suffer, Little Children

Assorted ramling about the old testament combined with a complete lack of biblical knowledge vis-a-vis the new covenant.frreal on August 26, 2007 at 7:32 AM

Hey buddy, do quote to me the verse where Jesus did any babykilling and woman raping? Get your facts straight first, then we talk. Yeah, the old testament is full of murderers and adulterers and so forth, but guess what (not)frreal, nowhere is any follower implored or commanded to do any such thing.

As I said: Atheism is safe. It has no history, it has no content, it can’t be misquoted because it is nothing more than the belief that all other beliefs are wrong. It doesn’t even suggest a substitution. It’s like the Democratic party; it whines and pretends to be morally superior while it never bothers to come up with an actual alternative plan. The only reason most socialist Democrats don’t claim to be atheists is that it might hurt their god: poll numbers.

Kristopher on August 26, 2007 at 3:16 AM

Nice. You apologize to the atheist for accidentally criticizing his (sarcastic) comment, but not to all the Christians–who didn’t even make the original comment by the way–whose faith you ridiculed anyway with your own sarcastic “giant invisible friend” comment.

That is why believers find you intolerable, you’re the Holy Rollers for nihilism.

BKennedy on August 26, 2007 at 4:32 AM

and why unbelievers find you intolerable is that you time and time again defend the actions of a God/Jesus that praises the killing of babies, raping of virgins, child sacrifice, slavery, animal sacrifice, and more killing of babies all the while claiming that the God you worship is the most mercyful. Wow.

So God/Jesus gave us this conscience and morality (as you say) but we are just supposed to deny that conscience he gave us when reflecting on the atrocities in the OT. I guess he gave believers a special kind of conscience where killing the babies of your enemy when you want their land is OK as long as you think God told you to do it. I must have been in the wrong conscience line.

Thank God?

LOL. Kettle meet pot.

MB4 on August 25, 2007 at 10:51 PM

Two things:

1. The difference in tone is that I claim to believe in God and don’t hold it against you if you don’t. You claim to know God does not exist and consider all religions equally villianous for no reason other than they believe in a deity that you don’t.

2. I’m still waiting to hear the philosophical and practical merits of atheism. For any attack or comparison you could level against Christianity, I can mount a defense. Whereas, my rather blistering criticism has recieved a “the best defense is a good offense” type of response. Like I said: Atheism is empty.

As to the parallels between Christianity and Islam, they are both monotheistic and that single God shares similar powers and responsibilities. That is where the comparison ends since Muslims make it as much a point as atheists to declare Christians, Jews, and any other faith practictioners are wrong. Atheists, praise the Lord, stop at smug, brash, annoying, logically inept criticism; Islamists resort to murder and explosives.

You are tying Radical Islam to atheism? I’m sorry but who were those 9/11 hijackers praying to when they crashed those planes? The same “god” you pray to, not mine, which is none, because I know there isn’t one.

The Sinner on August 26, 2007 at 12:21 AM

No The Sinner, Atheism and Radical Islam are totally different as far as their justifications. An Atheist answers to noone, an Islamist answers to Allah. Stalin killed more people because he could than Islamists do because they believe Allah ordered them to. Islam, thank merciful heaven, does not consist entirely of radicals and could theoretically be changed from within. Atheism however, is an empty shell for self-God status. There’s nothing to fix because there’s nothing there to begin with. It is empty, it always has been empty, and it always will be empty because it revolves around the notion that all other belief systems are wrong. It brings nothing to the table and such nothingness is already on display here.

Second, last I checked my God’s name was not Allah, his name was Jesus Christ. He is also The Father and The Holy Spirit, and the example he gave us to follow was a humble preacher, not a war-mongering pedophile. I’d rather have an imaginary friend than a grand self-imposed, infallible delusion of the afterlife. I’m the idiot who professes to believe in a moral and just God who promises eternal salvation to those of good faith and good works, not the idiot who claims to know with certainty what the afterlife is like.

So take your delusions elsewhere. You know nothing with certainty because there are no human mechanisms with which to prove your hypothesis. That is why believers find you intolerable, you’re the Holy Rollers for nihilism.

You are tying Radical Islam to atheism? I’m sorry but who were those 9/11 hijackers praying to when they crashed those planes? The same “god” you pray to, not mine, which is none, because I know there isn’t one.

The Sinner on August 26, 2007 at 12:21 AM

I haven’t read all the posts in this thread. I just hope you are not equating the islamist god to the GOD that the Christians follow…because that would be wrong information there. Just checking.

Or maybe there is a God and he is just real good at playing hide and seek!

MB4

So … this god of your’s … he lies and plays headgames with you?

Look … I cannot disprove the supernatural … I’ll agree to not ridicule your giant invisible friend provided you don’t bother me touting “him”.

The Sinner on August 26, 2007 at 12:21 AM

Or maybe there is a God and he is just real good at playing hide and seek!

atheism is the freeloading slacker of the theological world. I suppose that’s one step above being backwards like Radical Islamism, but it isn’t that big a step.

BKennedy on August 25, 2007 at 9:51 PM

You are tying Radical Islam to atheism? I’m sorry but who were those 9/11 hijackers praying to when they crashed those planes? The same “god” you pray to, not mine, which is none, because I know there isn’t one.

BKennedy on August 25, 2007 at 9:51 PM

LOL. Kettle meet pot.

I have never and do not now disagree with that.

Fact is, atheism as a philosophy

Atheism is not a philosophy, not to me anyway, any more than not believing in alien visitations is a philosophy.

Which is why I keep going back to that atheist monster Stalin

Weren’t you the one accusing me of the “fallacy of guilt by association”? And OBL, who would detonate nuclear bombs on the U.S.A if he could, is an atheist?

I don’t hate atheists, I just detest atheism. It is bankrupt.

Hate? Detest? Pretty much same-same. How can not beleiving in things that are such a leap of faith be bankrupt and make you so angry? Is not believing in Bigfoot being bankrupt and make you so angry? If your faith is strong you should not be threatened by it.

So in summary: Atheism is ridiculous.

Not believing in Gods and spirits and not really being dead when one is clearly dead is no more ridiculous than not believing in the Lock Ness monster or alien visitations or leprecons, probably a lot less.

Fact is, atheism as a philosophy is silent on murder, torture, rape, war, child abuse, love, compassion, sacrifice, and kindness. It requires any moral programming to come from somewhere else. If you know the difference between right and wrong it’s because you got your notions of it from somewhere else.

Which is why I keep going back to that atheist monster Stalin. Stalin knew right from wrong too. And he didn’t need some stupid book written by ??? 2,000 years ago either. Fancy that, how both he and you (well, The Sinner actually) could say the same thing. Atheism is “substitute my preferred personal beliefs for any actual moral code,” and nothing more.

I don’t hate atheists, I just detest atheism. It is bankrupt. You can tell because the only thing seemingly universal among its practictioners is a condescending smugness, at least whenever other faiths are brought up. If you judge a religion by its fruits, atheism is the freeloading slacker of the theological world. I suppose that’s one step above being backwards like Radical Islamism, but it isn’t that big a step.

Atheism has never spurred intellectual thought. Atheism has never inspired anyone to do anything, bar maybe spend all their time “disproving” a deity they don’t even believe exists. The atheist’s problem is that their premise is flawed. The atheist claims to know the truth, then tries to work backward to “prove” it to everyone else. If they weren’t so insulting in the process they’d be endlessly amusing. Seriously, I’ve never seen an atheist argue the merits of their belief, they just try and drag others down in the process. Atheist writings on religion are voluminous, but substitutable with each other. How many times can you flog the same dead horse? It really is a sad belief, the more entrenched in it you are the more ridiculous you become. As I said before, Chris Hitchens isn’t happy not believing in God, he wants to assert that you shouldn’t believe in God either, read his several hundred page book discussion a deity whose existence he doesn’t believe in.

So in summary: Atheism is ridiculous. Nobody has more certitude about unknowable knowledge than they do, and noone spends more time trying to “prove” what they “know” than anyone else. As I said, the ranting atheist is my favorite religious discussion participant. If they really believed they had the truth, they wouldn’t need to knock anyone else’s beliefs. So basically, I view them as jesters deserving of the sarcastic ridicule they so readily heap on others.

If believers are right that there is a God and non believers are right that there is no such thing as a soul and an afterlife.

The joke would be pretty much on everyone.

I am puzzled by atheists those who don’t believe in global warming that argue quite persistently that there is no God global warming…why would one bother to argue about something they do not believe exists?

If there is no God, no one will be at all surprised by anything after they die as they will be, well, dead.

Even if there is a God, that by no means guarantees that any human will come back from the dead.

The only way either believers or atheists will know the truth is when they die, and then one or the other is going to be damned surprised. I hope it is the atheists.

I was implying no quilt by association. The statistics are what they are, nothing more, nothing less.

This may come as a shock to you, but more high-crime groups profess a Christian faith. This isn’t because Christians are bad, its because unlike Atheists, most of which are well off and well fed, many Christians are poor blacks and poor Hispanics who still profess to believe in Jesus, even if they do commit crimes.

I do not think that is an invalid point.

But why bother you with logic, MB4?

If you say so.

If an Atheist behaves himself it is only because he has so many other moral codes to choose from (and that will be enforced on him) and really doesn’t want to expend the effort to defy the law of the land. The atheist’s biggest restriction on his actions is legal, not moral.

That is NOT correct. I am quite able, as most people are, to break many laws and get away with it. What guides me is a belief in what is right and what is wrong, not “what I can get away with”. It is called a conscious and no belief in God is necessary to have or not have one. In fact there seems to be little correlation between a belief in God and having a conscious.

As I said (or at least implied), an atheist by his own system cannot do any action that can be proven evil, he can only be condemned under someone else’s rules. It is an intellectually weak and flimsy (non)belief because as it is a belief in nothing, it requires no thinking. Apparently however, it does require one to be extremely smug and to pretend Occam’s Razor can be applied to religion. Atheism has no depths to plumb. While it states there is no God, in reality it makes the individual a God. They are not subject to any social rules or mores that they can successfully break while avoiding punishment.

Atheism is NOT a belief in nothing, it is just the absence of a belief in one thing, that being God. Atheist are as subject to social rules and mores as much as anyone else. I think that you are confusing atheism with narcissism.

The atheist is the ultimate outlaw.

That is utter rubbish. Why do you hate atheists so?

He is not even in the jurisdiction of God. But I shall state it again: Most atheists are not criminals. This is because philosophically they can do whatever suits their individual, arbitrary fancy. In practicality, because others have strongly fought for many laws and restrictions on behavior, most atheists stand to lose if they take their philosophy to its logical conclusion. They are well fed and well to do, and violating the law would likely diminish their wealth, not increase it. Socialist mass murderers did not have such restrictions because they were the law.

Again, I think that you are confusing atheism with narcissism. You also seem to be unaware of something called a conscious. You also seem to be implying even if you do not realize it that believers would do all manner of bad things but for fearing punishment by God. Not exactly very faltering to believers.

BKennedy on August 25, 2007 at 9:34 AM