Shocka: Mother Teresa’s letters reveal she had moments of doubt
posted at 8:36 pm on August 24, 2007 by Allahpundit
Via Weasel Zippers, somewhere Hitchens is surfing a wave of Strange New Respect.
Forgive this benighted unbeliever his ignorance, but aren’t you supposed to have moments of doubt? Part of the “we’re only human and that’s why we need faith” rationale?
Seems a little thin:
Shortly after beginning work in Calcutta’s slums, the spirit left Mother Teresa.
“Where is my faith?” she wrote. “Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness… If there be God — please forgive me.”
Eight years later, she was still looking to reclaim her lost faith.
“Such deep longing for God… Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal,” she said.
As her fame increased, her faith refused to return. Her smile, she said, was a mask.
“What do I labor for?” she asked in one letter. “If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.”…
The letters were gathered by Rev. Kolodiejchuk, the priest who’s making the case to the Vatican for Mother Teresa’s proposed sainthood. He said her obvious spiritual torment actually helps her case.
“Now we have this new understanding, this new window into her interior life, and for me this seems to be the most heroic,” said Rev. Kolodiejchuk.
Yeah, needless to say, if she was faking it she sure played it cool with Sam Brownback.
Semi-related, a new poll from the AP and MTV(?) of kids and young adults:
Eighty percent of those who call religion or spirituality the most important thing in their lives say they’re happy, while 60 percent of those who say faith isn’t important to them consider themselves happy.
“If you believe God is helping you, then everything else isn’t as important and you can trust that there’s somebody there for you no matter what,” said Molly Luksik, a 21-year-old ballet dancer in Chicago and a Roman Catholic who attends Mass weekly. “Just going to church and everything … it’s very calming, and everyone is nice.”
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: 1 2 Next »
It is not unusual for those of great faith to also have dark nights.
On Mother Teresa’s “dark night” [Michael Novak]
bnelson44 on August 24, 2007 at 8:40 PM
This is pretty weak, even the most religious have moments of doubt.
I can sympathize, I wonder about it a lot.
Bad Candy on August 24, 2007 at 8:42 PM
An interesting book if you want to read more about such things:
Dark Night of the Soul
bnelson44 on August 24, 2007 at 8:42 PM
Any Christian who tells you they’ve never had any doubts isn’t a Christian. The Bible says over and over your faith will be tested. But you already knew that AP. Most of my friends who are atheists know the scriptures as well or better than many of my Christian friends. And somehow I think you may also.
Kowboy on August 24, 2007 at 8:46 PM
even the most religious have moments of doubt.
Those moments usually don’t last decades, though :-)
dhammond on August 24, 2007 at 8:46 PM
“Moments of doubt” is a convenient way to excuse “moments of rationality.”
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 8:49 PM
If you never doubt it, how can you be sure you’re not just having faith in nonsense. I’d say doubt tempers faith.
frankj on August 24, 2007 at 8:50 PM
Sometimes you act like a three year old AP.
Do you need comments that badly? All for an iphone?
shooter on August 24, 2007 at 8:53 PM
This is old news as far as Mother Teresa’s “dark night of the soul”. We Catholics have been talking about it for several years since the first glimpse of these letters. John Paul II was a promoter of his favorite mystic Saint John of the Cross who wrote the poem “Dark Night Of the Soul” that basically talks about the “lengthy and profound absence of light and hope. In the dark night you feel profoundly alone.” I was not able to break out of this state for decades, but it brought me deep understanding of suffering and lonliness…that it in the end cannot break you, but make you stronger. I’ve even blogged about my own abandonment and have understood it better since I read that even Mother Teresa wasn’t immune from this. I hate how some in the media are equating this with atheism or agnosticism..it’s not. Faith is hoped for, not certainty. I’d rather have a saint, who feels abandoned and hopeless in her own soul as she carries and comforts the sick, hungry and dying, than a holier than thou nun who doesn’t question a God who would allow this suffering to happen.
deedledee on August 24, 2007 at 8:56 PM
If you don’t like these topics, avoid them. I like discussing philosophy and religion, and as evidenced by the responses in threads like these so do a lot of the commenters on this site.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 8:57 PM
Agreed. These are usually the longest threads on the site. Pagan (or “Satan’s Children” if you will) vs. Christian smackdowns are fun.
Slublog on August 24, 2007 at 8:59 PM
A venerated tradition, especially among saints. St. Ignatius and St. John of the Cross wrote extensively about it. This makes it even more remarkable that she could continue with her work for so long.
Thomas the Wraith on August 24, 2007 at 8:59 PM
I have read some years ago that what she was experiencing was extreme spiritual dryness rather than doubt. Many of the Saints have also experiences this as do many new converts after a year so of following Christ. Sometimes God pulls back on the “feeling states” to see if we will follow Him out of obedience, plus its also sign of spiritual maturing. To act without all the consolations.
Irenaeus on August 24, 2007 at 9:00 PM
I…agree.
amerpundit on August 24, 2007 at 9:03 PM
“Dryness” to put it lightly if even some of the letters are any indication. Why are people so willing to overlook this as a “lapse” when it at least looks like someone who no longer believes in God and is confused about what they’ve been doing for their entire life.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 9:05 PM
I believe even Jesus had his moment of doubt on the Mount of Olives.
Kini on August 24, 2007 at 9:12 PM
Feeling alone or abandoned is not the same as no longer believing.
Maybe for athiests …
boris on August 24, 2007 at 9:13 PM
You’d like to think that.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 9:14 PM
She sounds like a human being who had moments of depression. God knows living in a Calcutta slum would do it to me.
You hate and insult anyone who doesn’t share your extremist leftists beliefs. Why don’t you go back to your crappy blog where you won’t allow people who don’t kiss your ass to comment.
Blake on August 24, 2007 at 9:16 PM
My blog is as imaginary as your God.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 9:18 PM
If anything I have even more repect for MT, shows she didn’t blindly follow (see koolaid drinkers).
Soul searching doesn’t mean a lack of faith, it only shows she used her head and searched her heart for the truth. This would apply to the religious, aethiests, liberal, conservative etc…
Weasel Zipper on August 24, 2007 at 9:21 PM
The garden of Gethsemane.
angryoldfatman on August 24, 2007 at 9:21 PM
AP to your question of whether or not doubt is present in Christians the answer is, yes. Even John the Baptist, Christ’s cousin (humanly speaking), the one who was to make straight the crooked paths in preparation for Christ’s ministry, the one who was the last of the Old Testament type prophets, the one who lived in the wilderness and ate only locusts, even he, after having been arrested, asked his disciples to ask Jesus if he were The One. The same John who once said of Christ, “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” also doubted.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 9:25 PM
I know about “Why have you forsaken me?”, but that was while he was on the cross. It is also a quote of the first verse of Ps 22, whose last verse is “They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn- for he has done it.” So it doesn’t seem to me to be a cry of abandoment, but rather calling us to a very beautiful Psalm that speaks of his coming triumph.
pedestrian on August 24, 2007 at 9:30 PM
Your intelligence is as imaginary as AP’s iPhone.
Blake on August 24, 2007 at 9:31 PM
The truth is all you Christians hold similar doubt towards the Muslim religion or the thousands of other religions out there. You don’t follow Christianity because you’ve used your superior intellect to determine that it’s 100% true (you admit it yourselves, it’s not called a leap of faith for nothing–it’s present in all religions), you’ve settled on Christianity because it makes you feel better and you’ve stuck with it because of your biases. Ultimately it’s a pretty egoist perspective.
Those who question the facts as described by Christianity (Catholicism in this particular case) might actually be realizing about their religion what they’ve realized with the thousands of others available to them.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 9:32 PM
blockquote>A venerated tradition, especially among saints. St. Ignatius and St. John of the Cross wrote extensively about it. This makes it even more remarkable that she could continue with her work for so long.
Thomas the Wraith on August 24, 2007 at 8:59 PM
Absolutely! Many, who are not Christians, have a misconception of the Christian experience (forgive the term experience, please). This misconception is understandable, especially when many preachers make it sound like if you believe in Christ then all will be rosy, and every kind of human emotion you experienced prior to conversion melts away in a heavenly glow. This is not so. Her time in her own personal wilderness endears her to me even more; and I am not Roman Catholic (though I am Catholic, heh…just a little ecclesiastical teaser for those paying attention.)
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 9:32 PM
Your lack of faith disturbs me – Darth Vader
Kini on August 24, 2007 at 9:33 PM
What part did she have a problem with.
Walking on water?
Curing the sick?
Feed the masses ?
Immaculate conception?
the ark?
Burning bush?
What, is she nuts? How can you doubt that stuff?
TheSitRep on August 24, 2007 at 9:33 PM
I think every believer has doubts, it is normal.
terryannonline on August 24, 2007 at 9:35 PM
I hear ya. Sometimes I’m like , should I go with olives or cocktail onions.
TheSitRep on August 24, 2007 at 9:36 PM
Absolutely true. In 2 Corinthians 1:8 the apostle Paul and his companions despaired that they would even survive the trail they were experiencing.
I would not trust any believer who claimed to never have times of doubt.
infidel4life on August 24, 2007 at 9:36 PM
What, is she nuts? How can you doubt that stuff?
TheSitRep on August 24, 2007 at 9:33 PM
She was fine until she heard that rabbits don’t chew their cud.
pedestrian on August 24, 2007 at 9:37 PM
Nonfactor, I know why you have this perception of Christianity; however, concerning the “settling” on Christianity, it is precisely the opposite. When someone converts to Christianity, he does so not because the claims of Christ and the OT make him feel good. No, it is that those claims have made him feel incredibly BAD. This is due to the recognition that what is required for righteousness can not be met and the need for a savior is manifested. In fact it is one of the amazing paradoxes of the Christian religion. It is a story about the beginning of one’s life that, in fact begins with his death.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 9:39 PM
Two words: Frederick Buechner. Read just about anything the man ever wrote and you’ll get a good feel for the role that doubt plays in faith.
Bryan on August 24, 2007 at 9:40 PM
Isn’t there an anthill somewhere that you can pour lighter fluid on?
infidel4life on August 24, 2007 at 9:41 PM
Take comfort in knowing the fact that your God does actually make you and millions of others feel better about your life. It doesn’t mean it’s real, of course, but the feeling is real, and isn’t that all that matters anyway?
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 9:45 PM
This is not even news. The fact that Mother Teresa “struggled with her faith” and “had doubts” was revealed MANY years ago (and discussed) when she was still alive.
Anyone care to join us now in the 21st century?
CyberCipher on August 24, 2007 at 9:48 PM
Ah yup! Gin or Vodka – shaken or stirred.
Kini on August 24, 2007 at 9:48 PM
Nonfactor, now you are beginning to make claims about the nature of God and his relationship to man (“making one feel better about your lives”). This is interesting because that is a movement away from a typical broad accusation that is, many times, used against Christians. So I am curious, where do you get the idea that it is a theological tenant of orthodox Christianity, that Christians are supposed to, and should expect to , feel good about their life? I am not trying to be a smart ‘A’, I really would like to know this.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 9:51 PM
I think its a terrible attack on a person who I could not be worthy of her spit
Additionally seeing the problems with the Indians here in the Middle East, Mother Teresa answered the call way way way above any second guessing and surface reading of some scholars who have never been in nor can sink into the very depths of poverty and despair that she bravely for decades fought alone as a woman in a very corrupt culture that was/is Calcutta
So much for the understanding of scholars and historians
EricPWJohnson on August 24, 2007 at 9:53 PM
Nonfactor, note the emphasis on the word “their”
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 9:54 PM
Time to hijack the thread. Throughout the Bible, beginning with the story of creation and with Abraham, a man’s FAITH in God is central to justification in God’s eyes. Abraham’s faith was counted as rightiousness with God. This theme continued throughout the time of Moses, the major and minor prophets, the ministry of Jesus, and right-on-up to Martin Luther’s focus on the New Testament teaching that “the just shall live by faith.” There is even an incident in the Gospels where Jesus did not heal people or perform miracles in a certain community — and the reason cited was that the people in that community lacked faith.
So. A more interesting question is this: Why is faith SO important?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 24, 2007 at 9:58 PM
I’m well aware there are many sects of Christianity who focus on guilt. I’m sure I could find numerous passages in The Bible to back up the idea that Christianity is supposed to make someone feel “better,” but as of right now it’s just a claim, if you disagree you’re free to do so, but I know enough Christians to rationally say that their belief is focused on the idea of God making your life “better.”
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 9:59 PM
Faith is a strong and compelling thing.
Just ask anyone who strapped a bomb on themselves for 72 virgins.
Unfortunately, to even get an answer you couldn’t come back to tell anyone.
As for me, I stopped throwing virgins into the volcano. No sense in restocking heaven with more virgins.
Kini on August 24, 2007 at 9:59 PM
Just send your 58 dollar seed and wait for the miracle to happen. Let’s read a letter from a viewer “Dear Rev $$ after giving my 58 dollar seed I was rear ended by a casino shuttle bus. Praise the lord I was okay but lo and behold the local barrister filed a lawsuit on my behalf and I received a check for 200K….”
Bradky on August 24, 2007 at 10:05 PM
There are allot of folks hopped up on gerin oil, but what is weird is when it’s the atheist that is more stoned than the born again.
TheSitRep on August 24, 2007 at 10:07 PM
You should respect peoples’ belief, or nonbelief, in a higher power. To ridicule one’s religion shows profound disrespect. No one KNOWS the answers, we only have our own beliefs, or faith. Some of the comments on here, like your earlier comments, Nonfactor, I find very condescending. I imagine you look down upon the poor uneducated saps who believe differently from the enlightened ones, such as yourself. Typical liberal point of view. I am a former atheist, now I believe in a higher power but am not “religious” BTW.
RW Wacko on August 24, 2007 at 10:11 PM
The role of guilt that I wrote about is present in all expressions of orthodox Christianity, from the Apostle Pauls conversion to the present.
No, in the terms you used, and their underlying concepts, I’m afraid you could not. And believe me I have studied many types of “Christianity”: Orthodox theology, Feminist Theology, Process theology, Theology of Praxis, Liberation Theology, etc. Please don’t take this in a snotty way, but first, before you try to discredit the Christian Worldview, it is vital that you actually take the time to study it and do so diligently, instead of claiming to know what Christianity claims.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:11 PM
Ha!
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:13 PM
Moments of doubt do not an athiest make. I considered myself an athiest for many years, like our revered blogger (Allahpundit is Great and Michelle is His Messenger!) but I came back to Catholicism. Doubt is natural.
F. Scott Fitzgerald once wrote that during a dark night of the soul it’s three in the morning every hour of the day and night. I know how he feels.
“Dryness” to put it lightly if even some of the letters are any indication. Why are people so willing to overlook this as a “lapse” when it at least looks like someone who no longer believes in God and is confused about what they’ve been doing for their entire life.
aengus on August 24, 2007 at 10:13 PM
Forgive this agnostic also… for asking this. The progs condemn Christians for being unquestioning believers, but when they find one who questions her belief, they fault her for questioning too. What kind of credibility is there to that?
petefrt on August 24, 2007 at 10:15 PM
True enough!
But I like poking a little fun at both sides.
I try to get in 30 minute of exercising the 1st amendment 3-4 times a week. It keeps me fit.
TheSitRep on August 24, 2007 at 10:17 PM
Heh! Nonfactor, I just realized that in my comments I asked you to believe be. Looks like there are many times that man uses his faith/trust (news, friend’s stories, etc.)
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:18 PM
As Christians, we do not question the individual faith of Muslims or skeptics or atheists. As Christians, we question the philosophical foundation of competing worldviews. It is not a personal thing. We only question the philosophical foundation of their system, and we encourage others to question ours as well.
You are right. There is no basis for boasting or pride or condescending spirit or hostile, beligerent attitudes in the life of an obedient Christian. Receiving Christ as our supreme Treasure is a byproduct of GRACE, and GRACE ALONE. There are, after all, tons and tons of people who are a lot smarter than me. I am just thankful for God’s grace.
Nonfactor, thanks for visiting my website earlier.
I wish more atheists and skeptics would drop by. I think we will soon make some progress on our discussion of, “Can Reductive Naturalists account for Morality?”
As far as your above quote, I would really appreciate it if we could continue my earlier (couple of weeks ago) discussion where I established that atheism cannot epistemologically or metaphysically account for the laws of logic.
Atheists can indeed “count,” but they cannot “account” (or rationally justify or explain) their epistemic connection or metaphysical basis for their everyday usage of the immaterial, abstract entities known as the laws of logic.
Hence, all forms of atheism are false.
ColtsFan on August 24, 2007 at 10:18 PM
Allahpundit forgive them, for they no not what they post.
Isn’t enough to say, to err is to be human?
Kini on August 24, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Its not really an unusual phenomenon for saints. Two other Saints Theresa underwent the same thing.
E. M. on August 24, 2007 at 10:24 PM
It would be hilarious if it weren’t so predictable that the irreligious and atheists think this somehow supports their belief (whoops, sorry, lack of belief) that there is no God or that religion is bad or whatever it is these people are arguing these days. As others have already mentioned, anxiety, doubt, angst, whatever you want to call it, has always been a part of the Christian religion….It’s found in the Bible, it’s found in the writings of the saints, it’s found in theologians’ treatises, all of which been around for 2000+ years….and yet this somehow proves that religion is irrational or something amazingly new. What it proves is that the religious have the same doubts as the atheists and agnostics, and yet come to a a different conclusion. Dostoevsky, a devout Christian, wrote one of the finest books on agnosticism (indeed on anything), the Brothers Karamazov, ever written. And yet, again, somehow agnostics/atheists must laughably illustrate their own insecurities by holding up a picture of Mother Teresa, pointing “See! See!”
WillBarrett on August 24, 2007 at 10:27 PM
BTW, the slums of Kolkata are a hellhole. My wife was born there (not the slums),and I’ve spent a good bit of time there, including the slums. You can’t visit there and not feel overwhelmed. I can’t fault her for having any doubt after spending decades there, dedicating her life to trying to help children in need, and knowing that even her great work was barely touching the poverty of Kolkata as a whole.
RW Wacko on August 24, 2007 at 10:30 PM
WillBarrett on August 24, 2007 at 10:27 PM
It was that book that got me hooked on fiction novels. I used to hate fiction, but that was because I was only introduced to bad fiction. That book is great fiction.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:31 PM
I don’t agree. Nonfactor (et al.) can write whatever they like. I’m willing to put up with all manner of abuse in order to protect the concept of free speech. If you allow this respect for Christians then you have to allow it for the Muslim Brotherhood as well which I’m not prepared to do. None of us have to respect anything if we don’t want to.
aengus on August 24, 2007 at 10:34 PM
To be honest it reaches both ways. I realize I’m being condescending, but I believe that certain Christians deserve it. People have accused be of not being capable of morality. People have accused me of helping the terrorists “who would otherwise kill me.” If that’s not condescending I don’t know what is; to be honest condescending is par for the course from both sides on blogs like this. I’m not saying it’s right, or smart, I’m just saying that it happens, and it cuts both ways. I think you should really watch this video to get a hint about what respect I think some religious people “deserve.”
Truly I don’t understand this response from the religious considering how many of them view themselves as “enlightened.”
I think you’re misinterpreting my original response. Unless you’re truly arguing that your God doesn’t make people “feel better” about your lives.
This I’ve never disputed.
The laws of logic, like good and bad, are human inventions. A response to this would be “if the laws of logic are human inventions then that means they are capable of being violated,” and I’d agree. People can violate them all they want, but not if they want to appear rational in regards to human discussion which these laws of logic are based on. So how can an atheist use these laws of logic without believing some omnipotent creator willed them into being? By realizing that they are human creations intended to human conversation. Is something green because God says it is green or is it green because humans have given that name to one of our perceptions?
Just imagine how the world would be if humans were all red-green colorblind. Not very different at all. The laws of logic are intact, but now picture if the world were all red-green colorblind except for you, would you then be able to account for this seeming contradiction in logic? I’ll flush this out later. Think Descartes’ Dream Theory.
False because we can’t assign a nonphysical being to explain a nonphysical concept? I don’t think so. How can I justifiably use the laws of logic without believing in God? By telling you that they are human creations designed for human conversation.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 10:37 PM
Don’t think that’s unique to your religion. Why is the Muslim God false? Why are the Grecian gods false? I’m sure we could take the rational arguments you use to refute these deity’s (unless of course your only argument consists of the words ‘because mine is true’) and apply them to your own. Of course you wouldn’t accept it and I wouldn’t expect you to considering your own personal biases.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Heh. This thread is full of good comments and after the Spencer post this is a nice back and forth.
Kini, you amuse me to great extent.
Ha! You win.
BadgerHawk on August 24, 2007 at 10:41 PM
What we must respect, as conservatives I would hope, is the integrity of each individual, including religious integrity.
That would include Muslims, among other religions. Integrity is built on honesty (including intellectual honesty) and good faith (no underlying motive contrary to the one on the surface). A lack of integrity deserves/commands a lack of respect. And a lack of respect deserves a lack of tolerance.
petefrt on August 24, 2007 at 10:43 PM
This should shock no one. Jesus Christ had doubts too, “Father, Father, why have you foresaken me.”
Don’t you know?
Captain America on August 24, 2007 at 10:44 PM
Indeed He did triumph. But being in the flesh, He was not without doubt when He knew his destiny was imminent. If there had been no doubt, then His resurrection would have been as foolish as claimed by the unbelievers.
angryoldfatman on August 24, 2007 at 10:44 PM
So the idea, that something cannot both be and not be at the same time and in the same relation, is a human invention? Also, I know you never disputed the claim that i mentioned in my post at 10:18, that’s is why I began it with ‘Ha.’
Your use of the argument was in the context of “that’s why you Christians settled on Christianity” I’m merely stating that we ‘settle’ on Christianity for the opposite reason.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:45 PM
You can’t prove non contradiction. It’s one of the lamest theistic arguments out there because what it does is assume ‘oh, I can’t figure this out, God must’ve done it.’
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 10:50 PM
I’m curious. If I were to be pursuaded by your arguments and declare that you are right in what you say, then where would that place me in relation to you claim that the logic you used in your argument was purely for our conversation? Wouldn’t that leave me in a very prickly place? The place where my religion was “proved” wrong by someone who was merely forming his words to a human invention like “logic?” Why then should I believe such a person?
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:52 PM
The serious problem of the past thousands of years of philosophy is the following:
the immaterial, abstract entities known as the laws of logic cannot be reduced to psychology, sociology, language, verbal communication, or any human invention. It has already been shown that the laws of logic are not human creations or human inventions.
That is why atheistic naturalists try to “reduce” the laws of logic to “something else.”
But the history of philosophy proves they cannot.
It is impossible.
ColtsFan on August 24, 2007 at 10:54 PM
I’m not following you. Jesus telling the Father that he is experiencing the human sense of dread for what he knows and accepts is about to happen. How is that like having a feeling of abandonment? When a soldier heads into battle, he’s not liking it, but he isn’t doubting the existence of his commander.
pedestrian on August 24, 2007 at 10:54 PM
You misunderstood me. I am not using the law of non contradiction as a proof of God, rather I am trying to understand how you could even conceive that it is a human invention. My assumption is that human inventions can be either “used” or not. I cannot think of an occasion where some one would not use, nor expect some one else not to use, that law. Again, I’m not saying what you claimed I said, namely that the law of non-contradiction “proves” God.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 10:57 PM
Which of any of those ‘gods’ willingly submitted to a death that would redeem all of humanity? And which of any of those ‘gods’ didn’t stay dead, but was resurrected and is alive now?
This is what sets the Christian faith apart from all other faiths.
infidel4life on August 24, 2007 at 11:01 PM
In other words, have you ever gone through a day where you were acutely aware of what you a claiming now? Made an argument to someone knowing you were employing what is known as “reason” only because it is a convenient human invention to facilitate conversation, and that it holds no other significance than that?
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 11:01 PM
You have learned well, Grasshopper.
Jaibones on August 24, 2007 at 11:04 PM
Nothing, including a god could have always been here, and nothing, including a god, could come from nothing, so clearly nothing exists.
The conclusion is inescapable, or … … … …
MB4 on August 24, 2007 at 11:06 PM
yes, clearly.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 11:12 PM
We are told repeatedly that Jesus was God.
How could God ask God to remove His own burden? If He knew He was going to be resurrected and that it was necessary for humanity that He do so, why would He ask Himself to forego the whole thing?
It doesn’t make sense (to me at least) unless there was doubt that Jesus would be resurrected.
angryoldfatman on August 24, 2007 at 11:13 PM
A god could briefly appear, provided it appeared simultaniously with an anti-god and recombined before violating the Heisenberg uncertainy principle.
So where did the law of conservations of gods come from that prevents a god from just appearing?
pedestrian on August 24, 2007 at 11:13 PM
You’re free to believe that. I think a lot of you are mistaking my main beef with religion, and that’s when it creeps in to affect my life. I’d be just as virulent about the Grecian gods if someone was wanting to go to war because Ares told them to.
Because a book told you something happened? Sounds pretty similar to me.
Sorry I’m going to miss out on the rest of the conversation I have a barbecue to go to. See you tomorrow, look forward to reading the rest of these responses.
Nonfactor on August 24, 2007 at 11:13 PM
Never said it was unique to Christianity, Nonfactor, but the thread is about a Christian, now isn’t it?
Um, why are the Greek gods false, why is the Muslim god false? Ha, well those are quite some questions, and I really only planned on making a brief appearance in this thread….But that does seem to be the standard atheist attack….I think it was the first thing out of Sam Harris’ mouth on some interview I saw him give….Well, I guess it depends on how one chooses to address the question: If you mean, epistemologically, how is Zeus anymore false than Jehovah or Allah, I would answer that the Christian God has a sounder philosophical basis than Zeus. Whereas the Greek gods were anthropomorphic (and the OT god to a certain extent as well) or with some certain characteristic (god of lightning, god of war), the Christian God is none of those things (or rather, all of those things). The Pope, in his Introduction to Christianity (which I rec to all, atheists and Christians alike), has a wonderful section on how the Christian God became both the God of the religious and the God of the philosophers. I quote:
The influence of Hellenic philosophy on the Christian religion cannot be ignored or downplayed….Does this make it “true”? Well, of course that is not going to convince you, Nonfactor, that it is, but it might illustrate to you that the Christian conception of God is not precisely the same as “Apollo, god of the sun.” Or, that comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.
However, since you are, like most atheists these days, only interested in hearing evidence in favor of God from a perspective defined by positivism, naturalism, or materialism, I would only offer this: none of these of this things can address questions of meaning, being, final causes, etc. To quote the Pope again:
What I take this to mean is that your definition of “knowledge” is only on the technical level…the empirical, the scientific. That is fine, you are allowed to have that definition, although I think it is far too narrow. Knowledge (or, scientific knowledge), on its own, is nothing without understanding, or meaning….Of which the scientist can speak nothing. Heidegger, an agnostic/atheist himself, said that the fundamental question of metaphysics is “why is there something rather than nothing?”….Science cannot answer this question, it can only say that there is something, or how there is something, but not why there is something. This is the question philosophy and religion attempts to answer, and it is my belief that Christianity answers it in the best way. Of course, I sufficiently humble in my belief to not hate the muslim or agnostic who reaches another conclusion…and it is unfortunate that many of my agnostic/atheists don’t share my humility.
WillBarrett on August 24, 2007 at 11:13 PM
mmmmmmmmm…barbecue. Take care, Nonfactor
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Sucks ya in don’it.
Weight of Glory on August 24, 2007 at 11:22 PM
Not only then but:
Matthew 27
46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
————————————
David wrote a Psalm (22) about how he thought God had forsaken him.
1. To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
————————————
Job thought God had forsaken him, Paul spoke of having one sorrow after another. And these are by no means the only examples.
Maxx on August 24, 2007 at 11:28 PM
What other faith even claims those things I mentioned? Even if you don’t believe the claims, a thinking person must acknowledge that no other faith makes those seemingly outrageous claims.
infidel4life on August 24, 2007 at 11:29 PM
I hope it is pork.
TheSitRep on August 24, 2007 at 11:29 PM
Heh.
Jaibones on August 24, 2007 at 11:33 PM
A god could briefly appear, provided it appeared simultaniously with an anti-god and recombined before violating the Heisenberg uncertainy principle.
pedestrian on August 24, 2007 at 11:13 PM
The product of the uncertainties, of order 10 to the 35th power Joule-seconds, is so small that the uncertainty principle has negligible effect on objects of macroscopic scale, despite its importance for atoms and subatomic particles.
I would have thought that God would be taller than that.
MB4 on August 24, 2007 at 11:43 PM
The ranting atheist is my favorite religious discussion participant, they’re always good for a laugh. They post on these topics insulting people who haven’t chosen divine nihilism as if that is the only rational belief. The only belief they won’t doubt is the belief in nothing, all while praising their choice as the only rational one.
All I have to say is consider this: There can only be one truth. I don’t know what that truth is, nor does anyone else in the mortal realm. So why be smug about it, especially when you’ve taken the safest road? For all I know, one or more faiths could lead to heaven, and Jesus could be throwing parties with Odin and Zeus. Only the atheist pretends his belief regarding the afterlife is the only rational one. Everyone else, bar maybe predestination favoring folk keep it as an article of faith.
So I offer you this Nonfactor: we’ll have an eternity to talk this over in the afterlife. See you there.
BKennedy on August 25, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Yep, when some one is so fervent in their desire to convert people they are true believers and don’t know it. That is the confused young soul that will vacillate between adamant atheism and absolute born againism. Those people are like ex-smokers.
Maybe one day he will learn to trust in Thor.
TheSitRep on August 25, 2007 at 12:14 AM
Allahpundit forgive them, for they know not what they post.
Kini on August 24, 2007 at 10:23 PM
If there are no
cigarsjokers in Heaven, I shall not go.- Mark Twain
MB4 on August 25, 2007 at 12:14 AM
Hypothetical conversation between Nonfactor and a Christian sitting next to each other aboard an airplane:
Nonfactor: What’s that you’re reading there?
Christian: The Bible.
Nonfactor: You really believe that crap?
Christian: Well, yes I do.
Nonfactor: All of it?
Christian: Yes, all of it.
Nonfactor: What about that story about Jonah? How he was in the belly of a fish or a whale or something for three days, and then it spits him out onto land and he is still alive?! How is that even possible?
Christian: Well, I don’t know all the details about that, but when I get to Heaven, I’ll ask him.
Nonfactor: What if he’s not in Heaven?
Christian: Then you ask him.
infidel4life on August 25, 2007 at 12:17 AM
Man, these comments could totally be adding to the count on the Spender post.
BadgerHawk on August 25, 2007 at 12:18 AM
The bit about Jesus on the Cross, saying “Why have you forsaken” was in fullfillment of the prophecy in Psalms.
22:1 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?3
I groan in prayer, but help seems far away.4
22:2 My God, I cry out during the day,
but you do not answer,
and during the night my prayers do not let up.5
22:3 You are holy;
you sit as king receiving the praises of Israel.6
22:4 In you our ancestors7 trusted;
they trusted in you8 and you rescued them.
22:5 To you they cried out, and they were saved;
in you they trusted and they were not disappointed.9
22:6 But I10 am a worm,11 not a man;12
people insult me and despise me.13
22:7 All who see me taunt14 me;
they mock me15 and shake their heads.16
22:8 They say,17
“Commit yourself18 to the Lord!
Let the Lord19 rescue him!
Let the Lord20 deliver him, for he delights in him.”21
22:9 Yes, you are the one who brought me out22 from the womb
and made me feel secure on my mother’s breasts.
22:10 I have been dependent on you since birth;23
from the time I came out of my mother’s womb you have been my God.24
22:11 Do not remain far away from me,
for trouble is near and I have no one to help me.25
22:12 Many bulls26 surround me;
powerful bulls of Bashan27 hem me in.
22:13 They28 open their mouths to devour me29
like a roaring lion that rips its prey.30
22:14 My strength drains away like water;31
all my bones are dislocated;
my heart32 is like wax;
it melts away inside me.
22:15 The roof of my mouth33 is as dry as a piece of pottery;
my tongue sticks to my gums.34
You35 set me in the dust of death.36
22:16 Yes,37 wild dogs surround me –
a gang of evil men crowd around me;
like a lion they pin my hands and feet.38
22:17 I can count39 all my bones;
my enemies40 are gloating over me in triumph.41
22:18 They are dividing up my clothes among themselves;
they are rolling dice42 for my garments.
22:19 But you, O Lord, do not remain far away!
You are my source of strength!43 Hurry and help me!44
22:20 Deliver me45 from the sword!
Save46 my life47 from the claws48 of the wild dogs!
22:21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lion,49
and from the horns of the wild oxen!50
You have answered me!51
22:22 I will declare your name to my countrymen!52
In the middle of the assembly I will praise you!
22:23 You loyal followers of the Lord,53 praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
All you descendants of Israel, stand in awe of him!54
22:24 For he did not despise or detest the suffering55 of the oppressed;56
he did not ignore him;57
when he cried out to him, he responded.58
22:25 You are the reason I offer praise59 in the great assembly;
I will fulfill my promises before the Lord’s loyal followers.60
22:26 Let the oppressed eat and be filled!61
Let those who seek his help praise the Lord!
May you62 live forever!
22:27 Let all the people of the earth acknowledge the Lord and turn to him!63
Let all the nations64 worship you!65
22:28 For the Lord is king66
and rules over the nations.
22:29 All of the thriving people67 of the earth will join the celebration and worship;68
all those who are descending into the grave69 will bow before him,
including those who cannot preserve their lives.70
22:30 A whole generation71 will serve him;
they will tell the next generation about the sovereign Lord.72
22:31 They will come and tell about his saving deeds;73
they will tell a future generation what he has accomplished.
VinceP1974 on August 25, 2007 at 12:18 AM
Every
nationreligion ridicules othernationsreligions, and all are right , of course those who ridicule Islam are the most right.- Schopenhauer
MB4 on August 25, 2007 at 12:23 AM
After eating barbecue, how can you remain an atheist?
Maybe if it isn’t good barbecue. Ever been to Kansas City? If people prayed facing Arthur Bryant’s three times a day, it would make more sense than facing al-Ka’bah five times. Or Gates, Rosedale, Oklahoma Joe’s, Jack Stack….
The Monster on August 25, 2007 at 12:52 AM
No, we are told repeatedly that Jesus was the SON God. Just a bit of difference. Now does it make sense to you?
Kowboy on August 25, 2007 at 1:00 AM
*SON of God, excuse me.
Kowboy on August 25, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Comment pages: 1 2 Next »