kiakjones on August 24, 2007 at 10:56 AM

When I called that book store to try to buy the book I the sales lady told me she had only one copy on the shelf, so I snapped it up.
I’m glad they have more copies for sale, maybe they were hiding under stuff in their back room.

I see what you’re saying. But honestly, the FBI has no interest in what people read, unless libraries ar chock-full of bomb-making manuals. That’s when they’re concerned, based on what I know…you know, the potential for terrorist attack knowledge & means??? (Not directed at you personally, just a general comment!)

They’re putting the tags in the books, not on people. Just like the book store, except a little more complex because they could help locate the book inside the library.

You’re right that this would be much less controversial. I admit to not having previously known the difference between passive and active RFIDs, so thanks for the clarification. I would certainly support RFID for inventory control as long as we are only tracking the book within the building.

We’ll see, maybe it’ll happen someday. I’m skeptical because I see “privacy concerns” thrown around a lot as a reason not to adapt new technology. The concerns don’t have to be legitimate to raise general resistance (tinfoil hat types abound in libraries). That tendency, in combination with small budgets and a ponderous bureaucracy, manages to kill a lot of promising ideas, unfortunately. It’s surprisingly hard to get anything done around here even when the culture is solidly behind it.

I don’t have the slightest problem with using them for inventory control. The library already knows you checked out the book, so worrying about privacy here is kinda silly …

If you are worried about some blackhat scanning your books after you leave, bring some tinfoil for your books … and yes, you have to have serious paranoia issues to go there …

Not much of an issue IMHO, but I daresay somebody will use it as ammo…

Point well made. Perhaps there is an issue with the fact that you are passively ‘tagging’ people as they walk around outside the library…somebody with a suitable RFID scanner might elicit useful information…perhaps.

They’re putting the tags in the books, not on people. Just like the book store, except a little more complex because they could help locate the book inside the library.

I understand the concern, but they have to understand how the technology actually works before they condemn it.

Point well made. Perhaps there is an issue with the fact that you are passively ‘tagging’ people as they walk around outside the library…somebody with a suitable RFID scanner might elicit useful information…perhaps.

I don’t think it’s a big deal myself…if the data on the RFID is only a library name/address and a Dewey ID, that’s not much of a privacy leak.

Librarians (myself excluded) are a seriously lefty crowd. Fahrenheit 9/11 was shown at the annual meeting of the American Library Association a few years back, if I’m remembering correctly…ugh.

Missy on August 24, 2007 at 1:01 PM

Great. The editors of Scientific American are left-wing moonbats also, and they would think this is a good idea. They’ve done several articles on why RFIDs are so great. Passive RFIDs only work for inventory control inside a building, because that’s where the antennas are that excite them. These are the ones we’re talking about, not the active kind. I understand the concern, but they have to understand how the technology actually works before they condemn it.

Why not for the rare, scarce, or competively-sought books?

Miss_Anthrope on August 24, 2007 at 12:27 PM

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear. I think it’s a financial possibility to use RFID to track those books. I still think there would be a privacy concern, though. Considering how strongly librarians have fought the Patriot Act because it contained the ghost of a possibility that librarians could be asked for a patron’s checkout records, RFID would likely be considered a Big Deal. Even if the concern isn’t justified.

Librarians (myself excluded) are a seriously lefty crowd. Fahrenheit 9/11 was shown at the annual meeting of the American Library Association a few years back, if I’m remembering correctly…ugh.

Not sure I understand the privacy concern. It follows the book, not the person. Is one forced to sign out books? You have a choice, do you not?

There certainly seems benefits in thwarting those that would choose to place their standards on others via misplacing, theft, etc of controversial books.

Missy on August 24, 2007 at 12:09 PM

There are no privacy issues with RFIDs, unless somehow the government has an antenna network throughout the entire country that can be tuned to the same frequency that excites the RFIDs in your library. Perhaps you need to actually understand what they are. They’re used in bookstores and shopping malls all the time with no problems.

Missy on August 24, 2007 at 12:09 PM

Why not for the rare, scarce, or competively-sought books?

The Dewey decimal system is a little outdated.

Esthier on August 24, 2007 at 11:28 AM

Disagree. The Dewey Decimal System is no more out of date than number themselves. There are an infinite number of numbers between any two numbers, and that fact lends itself well to a never ending succession of books being organized and cataloged onto shelves so they can be found. But the system was never intended to defend itself from malicious acts, or even mistakes in re-shelving the books.

Combine RFID with the Dewey Decimal System and you fix that problem too.

It’s easy to hide a book. Just take it off the shelf, move it to another floor, and stick it on another shelf. Now you are the only person in the world who knows where it is. Even if we knew the book wasn’t where it should be, how could we possibly find it without looking at all 3 million books in the building? It has nothing to do with the Dewey Decimal System (which incidentally is no longer in active use – we do have some Dewey books, but the vast majority are cataloged using the Library of Congress system).

In fact, grad students in the same research subject who are competing for scarce copies of out-of-print books do this all the time.

Although we do have ongoing shelf-reading to catch mis-shelved books, we have limited funds to spend on this. We might be able to get through one floor per year (using low-paid students) if we’re lucky, and it’s an error-prone manual process. So keep moving that book, and you’re pretty sure to evade what little checking goes on. This is the reality of a large research library.

RFID carries major privacy concerns for librarians. Maybe for a small subset of rare or expensive books, the idea might be tolerated. But for all 3 million (8 million total in the system)? No way would we ever have the money to even begin, even if we were okay with the privacy issues. Using the concept of appropriate technology, it’s far cheaper and easier – and a better use of taxpayer and tuition money – to replace lost/stolen books than to revamp the entire system for dubious benefits.

Sorry for the long comment, it’s rare that I actually have any pertinent information to share!

Fixing this problem sounds to me like a job for RFID tags or something like that can similarly send out a short range homing signal. But then you’ll get Big Brotherish worries that librarians will secretly use the tags to follow you home or something.

RFIDs can’t be used to track you out of the building, just inside. Good idea to use them.

no time like the present…

urbancenturion on August 24, 2007 at 11:27 AM

That’s Off topic for this thread, I’m sure they will get to it later.

It used to bother me a lot when I saw stuff like that until it was explained to me how it worked.

IrishEi on August 24, 2007 at 11:18 AM

Except, wouldn’t the history show those other bids? I mean if your max is 100, but your starting bid is 25, wouldn’t the history show the bid that outbid your initial bid?

Shouldn’t it look like this?

bidder 1: 25
bidder 2: 30
bidder 1: 35
bidder 2: 40
etc….

Back on topic: Wish I had downloaded Alms for Jihad when it was still available last week!

It seems to still be available for download:

http://find.franklin.com/search?ts=custom&p=Q&w=alms+for+jihad

But since that job is often left to student help and volunteers (not to mention how tedious it can be) books aren’t always found the first time through.

taznar on August 24, 2007 at 11:22 AM

Maybe I should volunteer…I can usually sniff this out, as I’m used to minutiae because of my jobs and researching for undergrad & grad school.

Thanks for the idea!