Derbyshire reviews Spencer: The seeds of defeat in the war on terror are sown by Christianity
posted at 1:29 pm on August 21, 2007 by Allahpundit
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I haven’t read the book so I’ll reserve comment, but how often does Robert Spencer get attacked from the right? Mmm, that’s red:
[V]ery uncomfortably for a Christian apologist like Robert Spencer (so uncomfortably he has not confronted it in this book, nor in any of the other writings of his I have perused; nor have I ever seen it mentioned in the rest of the burgeoning literature of Islamophobia), a great enabler of globalization has been the Christian tradition. If all men are brothers, heathens only a little less enlightened than Christians, they why should not a Pakistani, or a Somali, or for that matter a Mexican, come to live in the U.S.A.? Why should not ten million of each do so? Would it not in fact be un-Christian to refuse entry to those tens of millions? It beggars belief that anyone should hold such a civilizationally-suicidal view, but many Christians do—the current President of the United States, for example.
That leads more or less directly to this book’s most surprising omission: a failure to prescribe. If things are as Robert Spencer says they are, what is to be done? He offers nothing but a vague, half-hearted statement about the need for an “alliance” between “Hindus, Buddhists, secular Muslims [huh?—the previous 206 pages have left the rather strong impression that the only secular Muslim is a dead Muslim], and atheists.” (p. 207) What should we of the West do if such an alliance fails to appear?
Most of our Christian readers will take strong exception to the idea that Christianity is necessarily an enabler of globalization. Fair enough, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t note a striking example of Derb’s point on our own site within the past 24 hours.
I like this passage, too:
Perhaps the humane forbearance of the Prince of Peace, and the moral universalism that His teachings imply, bear the seeds of self-destruction. Those seeds were slow to germinate in the long centuries when great mass migrations of people into well-settled lands could only be military affairs. However, the globalization movement of the past fifty years has allowed millions of souls to move and settle peaceably into the old Christian lands; and our old ideals, with whatever contribution—major and critical, according to Spencer—from their Christian component, have urged us to welcome the settlers, and have called fierce obloquy on anyone who complains.
Spencer can’t have it both ways. If “even the secularists” are “rooted in the Judeo-Christian culture,” then so are their impulses to hate that culture and yield to its enemies. So what does he expect? Indeed, the secularists, with all their Christophobia, are a better bet for standing and fighting against jihadism than Christians are. If there were a proposal to impose Sharia law in your town, who would you rather see riding to your aid: Christopher Hitchens, or Bishop Muskens?
Spencer has promised PJM he’ll respond. In the meantime, anyone read the book yet and care to reply?
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A logical argument by your standards I assume? We had this exact same conversation in this thread.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 6:40 PM
Offer me an alternative. Tell me what the basis is for YOUR morality. I believe that the burden of proof is yours.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 6:41 PM
Good point. Every Christian theology I’ve learned basically says it’s game over when you die.
So, the guy in the video, if he died, is already gone. Prayer would serve no purpose at that point.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 6:41 PM
And since I guess I can’t expect you to read the discussion there I’ll summarize a brief point: believing in God is just as logical as believing in the Matrix.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 6:41 PM
Just so you know, Nonfactor, I’ve noticed that it’s pointless to argue with someone who does so in bad faith. I clarified my question to student only because you prodded me to do so (and for that, I thank you). However, unless I see something from you that does not seem like an insult, an attempt to bate or yet another offer of bad faith, I’ll ignore you. I’ll pray for you, however. :-)
baldilocks on August 21, 2007 at 6:42 PM
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 6:33 PM
Well the problem according to Nonfactor is quite simply that you are to stupid to grasp that God does not exist, nor are you able to grasp that his failure to prove god doesn’t exist is actually your burden of proof that he does exist.
Atheists have shifted the burden of proof to the theists because the Atheists know damn well that they cannot prove a negative, so they insist that the theists who believe that God exists prove it.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 6:43 PM
Now that I know that it annoys you, I promise to use that excuse incessantly.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 6:44 PM
You believed wrong. A quick read will show you why the burden of proof is on you.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 6:44 PM
If you are interesting in whether God exists, study God, not people. I was an atheist for my whole life until I studied the Bible, and believed it made more sense than anything else I had ever read. I grew up in a Jewish family, and so thought the worst of Christian, especially the Bible believing ones. Now I’m one of them. Go figure.
pedestrian on August 21, 2007 at 6:45 PM
Actually, we didn’t converse there. I only said:
“The difference being that those of us who believe in God do not believe God controls every aspect of our lives, which is by far the most insane thing mentioned on that clip.”
You never even addressed me.
To believe that we live in the Matrix is to believe that we have no control over our own lives. That’s not the same as a belief in God.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 6:47 PM
Exactly.
Which is pointless really. If God exists, then it’s the atheists who have something to benefit from the conversation, not believers. Even more so, the reverse isn’t true if He doesn’t exist.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 6:49 PM
Catholics certainly pray for the dead, based on a passage in Macabees, which Luther rejected. I never understood it, because the way I understand it is that it was game over from the foundation of the creation. So we just pray for whatever to maintain fellowship with God. That could be about dead people or living ones. Christ did rebuke some followers for staying to bury their dead, but it comes across as him chastising them for making an excuse.
I luckily escaped embarrassing myself because it was too much like the accident on the Forrester.
pedestrian on August 21, 2007 at 6:50 PM
You sound like Francis Schaeffer. He had a similar story, though he wasn’t Jewish.
PRCalDude on August 21, 2007 at 6:50 PM
So you ADMIT that you have absolutely NOTHING to offer other than your criticism? Is that it?
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 6:51 PM
There are a lot of people that I had to work hard to be able to pray for and to forgive, e.g. I have an ex-husband who cheated on me. It’s taken fourteen years to be able to pray for that guy, but you expect us to be able to pray for Osama just like that? When one accepts Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection we don’t automatically become just like Him–sorry ’bout that.
And, BTW, the Bible does talk about those who…let me be blunt here…”piss away their salvation” in the manner that you describe: by willfully and repeatedly sinning.
If you want to follow Christ, that’d be GREAT! However, stop trying to follow Christians.
P.S. What’s wrong with using BC (pill, condom, etc.–i.e. anything that isn’t the destruction of an already fertilized egg?
baldilocks on August 21, 2007 at 6:53 PM
I didn’t say they were the same I said they were just as logical.
Believe it or not there are atheists who have read the Bible, just as their are Christians who have read the Qur’an.
Benefit has nothing to do with burden of proof. If you claim God exists, if you claim Christian morality to be superior the burden of proof is on you. Sorry, I know it doesn’t work out well for you guys considering you can’t prove it, but it’s the truth; the burden of proof is on nobody but yourself.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 6:53 PM
Collie says you’re angry.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 6:53 PM
If I was a perfect individual I would have no need for a Savior or Christianity. Honesty dude, what exactly are you trying to get from us here? It might help.
Though I didn’t watch or read the post about the guy blowing himself up so maybe I’m missing something there.
CorinthianJest on August 21, 2007 at 6:55 PM
The misunderstanding of Love Thy Neighbor. From The Concept of the Political, page 29. Writing of the difference between the Greek terms hostes, public enemy, and inimicos, private enemy:
Thomas the Wraith on August 21, 2007 at 6:56 PM
Why does a Christian have to prove to you God exists? You know it can’t be proved to your level of satisfaction. Besides, if one could 100% beyond a doubt prove the existence of God it would defeat the purpose for life on earth. We would all just start out in heaven. I think the whole point of life is that it’s a gift, to do with whatever you want. If you choose not to believe that’s your choice. I (and every other Christian here) hope that one day before you die you do come to believe. But I’m not going to try to force you to. If you ever want to talk about God I’d be happy to. But your life is your life, enjoy it.
This is the reason why I think Derbyshire is wrong, why I don’t think Christians are responsible for any ‘defeat in the war on terror’. I know the value and dignity of human life and believe it is a gift. I’m willing to contend for it, to fight for others right to it, and if neccessary, to die so that others may have it.
BadgerHawk on August 21, 2007 at 6:57 PM
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 6:53 PM
Reading and understanding are two entirely different things, and that is the point that you don’t get. You assume that by the power of your intellect alone you can understand Christianity. You have even less of a chance of understanding Christianity by just reading the Bible as a person born blind has of understanding what the color red is.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 6:58 PM
I understand that theology even less.
Beats me. I’ve been on it for years.
To me, free will is a little more important than that.
Actually, benefit does come into account. If you are called upon to prove something, you do so because you have something to gain in doing so.
Why should believers bother? What’s in it for us?
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 6:59 PM
And understanding only comes from believing or do you think people can *gasp* actually read something and understand it without kowtowing to the Orthodox view?
This is such a load of BS. To act as if atheists don’t understand Christianity because they don’t believe in God is unfounded. Do you understand Islam? By your definition not unless you’re a Muslim yourself. And to also pretend as if no atheist was ever religious only contributes to your dishonesty.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:02 PM
Both Judaism and Christianity are build on fundamental tenets. The very first of these is that man is a sinner, devoid of anything good in and of him or herself, and in desperate need of God’s help. That is the first tenet. If you can not accept this one, there is no point in arguing with you about the rest.
Humans have at least 4000 years of recorded history that overwhemingly indicates that this first tenet is true. The moron that blew himself up with the mortar is just one of the most recent examples.
THIS is the crux of the issue. Most unbelievers NEVER get past the denial phase, simply because they refuse to admit that they need God’s help. If you can’t look at recorded human history and admit that mankind needs help (outside of himself), then I am afraid that there is no hope for you, pal.
Just sayin’.
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 7:03 PM
No. The “casting out” is more a matter of really getting what you want anyway, whether you realize it or not. Your not understanding is really a matter of perspective. Christianity is the ONLY faith that gets you OUT OF the cruelty. Being a child of Satan or a child of God is a spiritual position. Being unregnerate is a position of enmity with God, as is Satan.
BNCurtis on August 21, 2007 at 7:03 PM
Dude, now that I’m beneath comment I have nothing to aim for. In any case, have a nice atheist day. Good luck, or whatever.
Thomas the Wraith on August 21, 2007 at 7:03 PM
Luckily, most people (Christians or otherwise), have instincts for survival that predate Language and all gods or Gods.
Derbyshire is noting the suicidally “meek” and self-defeatingly “compassionate” wing of Christendom, but it is a minority of loudmouths and theatrical attention seekers.
The average member of the faith, when the Jihad starts killing their neighbors, will find all of the verses they need to justify their own self-defense.
The Old Testament is stocked with them, which is the likely instinctive reason it wasn’t jettisoned in favor of only the New. (And probably why the bizarre book of Revelations was allowed into the Canon, even though it contradicts Christ’s message of “he who is without sin cast the first stone” and is a non-stop pelting of vengeful boulders at the sinful.)
I’m sure Mr. Spencer will have some interesting things to say in response.
Tiny Muskens vs. Chris Hitchens is no contest.
But, don’t forget that Charles Martel was Christian and John Sobieski.
And George Patton.
profitsbeard on August 21, 2007 at 7:04 PM
The way you’re talking is only proving doriangrey right.
This is exactly what Christianity teaches.
1. People who believe are completely transformed, becoming new people, people who can understand spiritual things.
2. If you have not become a “new person” then you cannot understand spiritual things.
3. Not all “religious” people were transformed into new people.
If you’ve read and understood anything at all about the Bible, you’d have read and understood where it says exactly what I just said.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:05 PM
I sometimes think Allah just stokes the flames in these threads. It’s the only place on HA where he ever seems to get emotional or take anything even close to low blows.
BadgerHawk on August 21, 2007 at 7:06 PM
You really that has nothing to do with the subject, right? It’s a throwaway line that you used because you felt you needed to respond to me but couldn’t think of something to say about the topic of logic of the Bible v. Matrix.
You don’t have to prove anything, I never claimed you did. You do have to prove yourself if you want to be taken seriously or account for logic and reason. If you don’t you have no right to talk about it in any other subject from healthcare to war.
And back to the subject of the thread - I don’t think Christians can even pretend to not be the source of some of the worlds problems without keeping a straight face. Seriously, Christians, you don’t think anything is your fault? Not even passively? But I guess that isn’t a question to ask you guys.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:07 PM
I’m not angry. I’m old.
But then, you don’t believe in my collie, do you? It’s okay, he doesn’t believe in you either.
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 7:07 PM
There have certainly been times when I’d remove the “even close to” part out of your statement.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:08 PM
Right, because my dream in life is to be taken seriously by someone like you.
You will not accept anything as proof and are therefore completely useless when it comes to these discussions.
No, I used it because that’s a significant different between a life in the Matrix versus a life believing in a superior being.
If you can’t tell the difference, then you’re even more useless than I thought.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:11 PM
Do you think any of the world’s problems are your fault by virtue of what you believe?
It’s a stupid statement.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:13 PM
I’ll be back later folks. Hopefully this thread will be up to 600 by then–at least.
baldilocks on August 21, 2007 at 7:13 PM
How convenient.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:13 PM
You guys misunderstand the terms here. God does not exist in the same sense that gravity or the number 5 or the Incredible Hulk exists. God is that which makes existence possible. In some sense God is outside Being, just as God is outside space and time. God is the Ground of Being. As such God is not subject to the same concept of proof as a mere fact of experience or a mathematical principles. God, or some aspect of God, is what answers the question Why is there something rather than nothing?
Thomas the Wraith on August 21, 2007 at 7:14 PM
Sure, why not. Then again, you knew that one already, right, since you’ve read and understood the Bible?
How do you think this stuff works?
If becoming a Christian meant no more than the fact that you go to church and sing stuff, why would anyone bother?
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:14 PM
No, I don’t. I don’t understand how millions upon millions of people could follow the word of a murderer and a pedophile, how women could allow themselves to treated like property, or how people could dedicate their lives to the destruction of anyone who isn’t like them. I know about Islam, I read about Islam, but I don’t understand Islam at all.
BadgerHawk on August 21, 2007 at 7:15 PM
Yes, but we need to invent some sort of catchy nomenclature for AllahPundit’s attitude. Sorta’ like Geraldo came-up with “immigrationists.” It’s sure to annoy him.
My collie says:
Of course, if we do that, AP will be SURE to tell us that name-calling is unChristian. Hmmm. What the heck. Let’s do it anyway. We’re only human, ya’know.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 7:16 PM
You will offer nothing as proof and are therefore completely useless when it comes to these discussions. Simply because I don’t blindly accept the Bible to be true (400 year old humans, a flood that wiped out mankind, the story of Moeses copied from Sumerian tales–the entire book of Genesis for that matter) doesn’t mean I don’t understand why you believe in God. You may find it confusing that I understand and don’t believe as you do, but really that’s only your bias talking.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:17 PM
I’m getting a kick out of your collie.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:17 PM
Man! You still don’t get it. It’s a matter of the heart (and by that I mean the center of the will, not emotions in any way, shape, or form). If a Christian wants to commit sin and then get away with it by an appeal to ANYTHING (like humanity or even GRACE), that’s a problem, and it ain’t Christian. (You’ll find Paul teaches that.) That Christian seriously has some spiritual growth to undergo. BTW, only “love never fails”.
BNCurtis on August 21, 2007 at 7:17 PM
I hope it can last that long. My girlfriend is sitting about 4 feet behind me, very grouchy at the moment. Very grouchy.
BadgerHawk on August 21, 2007 at 7:17 PM
Are you talking about yourself here? Or is this a pot and kettle situation?
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:18 PM
I feel for her.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:19 PM
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:02 PM
Understanding has nothing what so ever to do with Orthodoxy, nor does it come from believing, understanding comes from the Holy Spirit.
No actually it’s not, it’s just your arrogant belief in your own superior intellect that is unfounded and makes this so impossible for you to grasp.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 7:22 PM
I believe we already had a conversation about burden of proof.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:22 PM
Seriously? Ask the Pope.
Tanya on August 21, 2007 at 7:22 PM
And what does that have to do with the fact you haven’t offered any? It may not be your burden to do so, but that doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to if you can.
Yeah, we don’t all worry about what he says.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:24 PM
I don’t think I’ve ever posted more than 3 comments on any thread, but this is a juice one.
BadgerHawk on August 21, 2007 at 7:24 PM
The problem is that the Muslims don’t use it.
PRCalDude on August 21, 2007 at 7:25 PM
Says who? Can you prove it? Or is this another claim that you expect me to prove untrue? I know what you can do - define “understanding.”
You Christians love throwing around this “superior intellect” mime like it’s a good argument against me, it isn’t.
Is this really your definition of understanding? If so I already responded: how convenient.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:26 PM
Well no wonder. She isn’t used to it.
My husband is frequently online playing poker at the few sites around who will still let an American play.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:27 PM
That’s what Christian espouses.
Clearly you don’t seem to understand that. How apt.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:27 PM
You have a very warped understanding of Christianity.
I feel bad for you AP, I really do. You dont know what it’s like to feel God’s love in your heart. To feel his hand on your shoulder at critical moments in your life. To feel his strength flow through your veins in the darkest of hours. I guess I’d be bitter and cynical with such a void.
Your situation is worse still. You’re a “conservative” atheist. Rejected by the Left as wingnut and looked upon with suspicion by much of the Right. It must be tough. I’ll pray for you.
TheBigOldDog on August 21, 2007 at 7:27 PM
Ok, TMI.
I was just explaining what Allah meant. Catholics “can’t” use birth control.
Tanya on August 21, 2007 at 7:29 PM
Regardless of the truth of Christianity, it is followed by sinners. There have been many many many things done in the name of Christianity that were wrong. Even on a personal scale, I’ve said and done stupid and horrible things that I thought a Christian should be doing or that I thought were right at the time.
But I have a feeling that nothing is going to satisfy you, bro. Nothing said here will stop you from hating Christianity or Christians. I’m just really at a loss for what some of you guys want from us short of some sudden epiphone of how horrible our beliefs are and a public renouncing of them. Good luck with that.
/shrugs
CorinthianJest on August 21, 2007 at 7:29 PM
How so? I figured it was common knowledge that only Catholics worry over what the pope says.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:31 PM
Pity me.
Allahpundit on August 21, 2007 at 7:31 PM
I would be a whole lot easier to profess being a Christian if there wasn’t a whole lot of stupidity own there done by Christians. Slavery for one.
That’s why I said to focus on God, and not people, to understand God.
However, to improve one’s self as a person it helps to learn from others, and a good church is about the best way I’ve found to maintain an ongoing habit of self-conscious improvement.
If aethism had a similar way of staying on track, Christians wouldn’t be so critical of it as the basis of a political philosophy. But I can’t think of any examples of a great aethist institution that isn’t leaning in a big way on some Judeo-Christian bulwark. If the theistic underpinnings went away, there’s nothing to stop such as system from becoming Europeanized and after than Islamized.
pedestrian on August 21, 2007 at 7:32 PM
You had already said “I’ve been on it for years.” I was just combining thoughts.
Tanya on August 21, 2007 at 7:33 PM
Can’t we all just get along.
terryannonline on August 21, 2007 at 7:33 PM
Amen! That’s what this Atheist does…good thing, too, based on what I’ve seen on this thread.
Because I don’t believe means I should forego any common courtesy?
Bring it, Nonfactor…I know you’re waiting to respond. Let’s see what you got for the B*tch.
Miss_Anthrope on August 21, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Just because you feel better for believing in something you call “God” doesn’t mean he exists. If this thing makes you feel better more power to it, but then to claim as if these experiences of yours are proof this thing exists is something else entirely.
And while talking about “understanding” (I’ll make sure to be purposefully ambiguous when saying that word from now on) I don’t think the religious understand much at all about atheists. Believe it or not I’m a happy person. I find meaning in my life because I’ve given myself meaning. I do things not because I fear consequence, but because I feel like doing them. But I really don’t expect you people to understand the concept.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:34 PM
I just prayed that God opens you heart and enters your soul so that you will know his love for you and that you are not alone even when you are all by yourself.
TheBigOldDog on August 21, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Nonfactor prefers arguments where she insults the hell out of people and if they try to defend themselves, she deletes their post, bans them, and closes down comments.
Blake on August 21, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:26 PM
You know what they say…If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and has a water tight a$$hole…
Well actually inconvenient for you, since no matter how hard you try you will never understand things of the spirit unless they are reveled to you by the spirit.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 7:35 PM
I see. I kinda felt the “I’ve been on it for years” comment stood alone without me having to say I don’t listen to the pope.
Guess in this time I don’t see that one as sharing too much, especially when you’d guess it if you knew I’ve been married for years and have no children.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:35 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to stir a personal experience into the cauldron, only in the service of adding to the comment count, you understand: What is the opinion of my fellow Hot Heads WRT born-again Christians:
My stepson, brought up attending church, is a self-described “born again Christian” and he sure enough is transformed. He is now a smug, self-righteous, more pious than thou, prig. Repercussions of his new identity made him a virtual stranger to his family and cost him a job. He feels transformed into new person alright, one who is persecuted that everyone is out to “judge” him.
RushBaby on August 21, 2007 at 7:36 PM
My heart is wide open. Anytime the invisible man who doesn’t exist wants to enter, he can.
Allahpundit on August 21, 2007 at 7:36 PM
I’ve already stated in the very same comment to which you’re replying that I’m not Catholic, but I hope that a Catholic would explain this proscription. “Seriously.”
Okay, Now I’m really gone, but it looks like 600 will be here soon.
baldilocks on August 21, 2007 at 7:38 PM
There’s only one “proof of God’s existence”- to become God.
Anything less is open to endless philosophical quibbles.
Till that time, mere decency will have to suffice.
I’ll fight anyone who tries to establish a theocratic tyranny.
(Derbyshire should read this thread for a demonstration of the instinct for fighting still evident in Christians.
And take heart.)
profitsbeard on August 21, 2007 at 7:39 PM
That’s certainly not the transformation I’m talking about.
So you’ve opened your very heart to something you know doesn’t even exist?
How very strange.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:40 PM
AP, I used to get mad at this comment when I was young…I learned the best response is to thank them for their concern, but that was something I’d have to handle on my own.
That’s sympathy, not pity. Learn to recognise someone who is genuinely concerned for you rather than lording it over you.
I feel bad for you, because you sound bitter. If you’re going to live with no faith, it helps not to be angry or bitter about it, or sound like you bitter when you’re not.
Miss_Anthrope on August 21, 2007 at 7:41 PM
I didn’t mean that “seriously” to be snarky, I really wasn’t sure if you were being serious or not.
I’m amazed that anyone can not know that birth control is illegal in the Catholic church, as much as we exes gripe about it.
Tanya on August 21, 2007 at 7:42 PM
Ask him how he knows he’s saved.
PRCalDude on August 21, 2007 at 7:43 PM
And yet I still require absolutely no information about your sex life. Procreative or not.
Tanya on August 21, 2007 at 7:44 PM
Allahpundit on August 21, 2007 at 7:31 PM
Never…pity is an utter worthless emotion that has never done one single ounce of good for anyone, I will have compassion on you though and moved by my compassion I will pray for you.
The logic fallacy here is mind numbingly obvious, no one is ever born a Christian, it’s a conscience decision that you have to make. However all of us are born as atheists, hence the ability of Christians to understand atheists since we were all atheists before becoming Christians.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 7:45 PM
What bothers me the most about these discussions is seeing people who are otherwise logical turn into absolute slugs when the topic of God arises. You might hold things to a certain standard of proof, evidence, logic, or reason on topics such as gun control, but then you act as if the things don’t exist or are only suggestions when professing your love for your God. No proof? That’s okay. No evidence? Fine by me. Yet if this were a topic about gun control and somebody made a claim sans proof you’d be all over them. I see your responses in threads like these and I can’t take you seriously outside of them.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:45 PM
I know that one but really don’t get it. If the only reason to have sex is to produce a child, then are barren women evil or something?
Also, does that mean no sex after menopause?
Plus, if waisting sperm is a problem, then shouldn’t men be out sleeping with as many women as possible in order to ensure the most amount of sperm possible make it to being a person?
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:46 PM
He’s not here to speak for himself, but I am quite confident that he would agree with the transformation you spoke of. Internally, he feels like a new person. To the rest of the world, he just became a stranger.
RushBaby on August 21, 2007 at 7:46 PM
So former Christians can understand Christians just as former atheists (you) can understand atheists? Or does it not apply when it doesn’t work in your favor?
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:47 PM
OK, what am I to listen for?
RushBaby on August 21, 2007 at 7:47 PM
Allahpundit on August 21, 2007 at 7:36 PM
Sorry it doesn’t work that way, the Holy Spirit is a perfect gentleman, he never goes anywhere he is not invited. You have to ask him in, not say that the door is open for him to come in any time he wants.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 7:47 PM
Just because someone takes birth control doesn’t mean that person is having sex. There are plenty of other reasons to take the pill.
Esthier on August 21, 2007 at 7:48 PM
At first I thought that was a joke, but given the recent AP-BigDog tension and the following comments I was wrong. Allah, I think all the Christians here trust you or we wouldn’t come here for our news.
I also think it’s amusing how with two words you pretty much guarenteed another 30 comments. Peace be with you.
BadgerHawk on August 21, 2007 at 7:56 PM
He should say something to the effect of, “I’m saved because of Christ’s righteousness, but I see the evidence of my salvation in my actions,” to which you’ll reply,”Why doesn’t anyone else see them?” If he leaves out the part about his actions speaking in favor of his salvation, you should bring it up. Lots of people think they’re saved, but demonstrate that they’re not by living just as wickedly as before:
and the oft quoted Matthew 7:
So if your step-son is blind to how he’s treating others, maybe he’s like one of these. It’s one thing to say, “I know Jesus.” It’s quite another for Jesus to say, “I know you.” It’s not good if he’s self-righteous (I say as I condemn myself.)
PRCalDude on August 21, 2007 at 7:57 PM
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 7:47 PM
There is no such thing as a former Christian, you either are a Christian or you never were a Christian.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 7:59 PM
And yet you will have another Christian impose that ALL humanity is born with the innate knowledge of God.
frreal on August 21, 2007 at 8:01 PM
How convenient. For you, of course.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 8:01 PM
More sarcasm? Or just an imperative?
Speaking of pity, my collie says:
CyberCipher on August 21, 2007 at 8:01 PM
*sigh*
So you’ve been married for years and you’re NOT having sex.
Still more information than I need.
Tanya on August 21, 2007 at 8:03 PM
Thanks. I knew you would give me valuable advice. I’ll practice and give it a go.
RushBaby on August 21, 2007 at 8:03 PM
PRCalDude on August 21, 2007 at 7:57 PM
Or it’s quite possible that he is just very immature in Christ.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 8:04 PM
People are most impressed with what they value most. How many examples shall I provide of atheists who are impressed with their own intelligence?
Anyway, after saying that at the beginning of the thread, you later said…
I’m not sure but I think you just congratulated yourself for moral superiority.
No, wait, I’m sure.
John on August 21, 2007 at 8:07 PM
Nonfactor,
My personal apologetic regarding my Christian faith is threefold and touches on the areas of reason, reality and relationship.
In the area of reason, many other Christians are far more gifted than I in the areas of logic and philosophy. I will simply say that there are excellent reasons to view the New Testament as an accurate historical document. (See John Warwick Montgomery’s History, Law and Christianity and F. F. Bruce’s The New Testament Documents Are They Reliable?
A person can therefore read the gospels as history and then an unavoidable question arises—what does the reader think about Jesus Christ? The New Testament gives me the knowledge I need to understand Jesus Christ, about repentance and sin, His death and resurrection and to be able to decide the question of faith. In the New Testament faith is not presented as an irrational leap without content—there are truths to be understood and knowledge to be comprehended. Faith is presented as believing into Jesus. We don’t merely acknowledge that He exists or is the Son of God, but we trust in Him—as Lord and Savior.
(BTW, there is no middle ground, Jesus said, He who is not with Me, is against Me. See C. S. Lewis’ essay What Are We to Make of Jesus Christ?What Are We to Make of Jesus Christ? from his book God In The Dock.)
INC on August 21, 2007 at 8:10 PM
Next is the area of reality. Francis Schaeffer had immense insight into this area. Towards the end of his book The God Who Is There, he states there are two realities we can’t get away from: internal reality and external reality–who we are and what the world is. Schaeffer said, No matter what a man may believe, he cannot change the reality of what is. He explains we get caught in a tension between two sides: the real world (external and internal) and the logical conclusion of our presuppositions (whatever belief system we have about life, truth, meaning). We can make some presuppositions about life or self, only to find out that life and self will turn around and shoot those presuppositions full of holes. The question for any belief system is how well does it correspond to reality.
Let me mention a few things I think we experience in reality that I believe point to the truth of Christianity.
Take the desire and yearning for significance and justice that I believe can be observed from the behavior and words of each person. Who among us does not want to know that we matter to someone? That our lives have significance in some way? Who doesn’t yearn to love and be loved? Why do we think like that? Where do these feelings come from?
Even those whose belief system presupposes randomness and lack of meaning to existence, for the most part will live their lives as if their lives have significance. Their system of belief may deny meaning or purpose but they won’t live like that. And to those who say you have to make your own meaning, I would ask why? Why do you even want to have meaning?
Christianity teaches we each have significance because we are each made in the image of God. Our yearning to love and be loved is a reflection of the loving person of God.
And take our desire for justice. Who among us, whatever your code of morality may be, has not at one time cried, “That’s not fair!” and yearned to see justice done. I think our desire for justice is a reflection of the holiness of God. Even those who may rail against a God they say only exists in the minds of men to give condemnation and guilt trips, have at some point in their life cried out to see wrongs made right, even if only in their own life.
Whatever the presuppositions of our belief system are, at some point we want significance and we want justice, whether or not that belief system supplies that.
The fact that this world is seriously skewed with wrong, injustice and suffering is a reflection, according to Christianity, that we have each turned aside from God and gone and lived life in our own way and that in turn has brought things crashing down around us. Repentance and faith bring us back into relationship with a loving, right and true God and He begins to change us to learn to live in truth. Admittedly, we have a ways to go, but hypocrisy is pretending you do things right, it is not acknowledging that you need to change.
The question for each of us is, does the pull of reality without and within rip our presuppositions to shreds or can they stand the strain? During my years as a Christian I’ve known great personal loss, both in emotional and physical suffering. Reality had ripped and roared, but the solid ground has held.
INC on August 21, 2007 at 8:11 PM
frreal on August 21, 2007 at 8:01 PM
There is profound difference between not believing in God, and having god’s laws written in your conscience. Nobody is born innately knowing that God exists, but everyone is born innately knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Nonfactor on August 21, 2007 at 8:01 PM
No again it is not convenient for me, it is what it is.
doriangrey on August 21, 2007 at 8:11 PM
That leads me to the final area of my apologia—that of relationship. I realize this is subjective, but not only do I bear witness to the reality of knowing God, but so have myriads of Christians through the years. There’s a very old hymn Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee that has the lines,
But what to those who find? Ah, this
Nor tongue nor pen can show;
The love of Jesus, what it is,
None but His loved ones know.
When I became a Christian, in the following weeks, to my delight and astonishment, I realized that I had entered into a new and real relationship with God. Not as a result of any mystical effort on my part, but as a result of coming to acknowledgement of my sin and repentance and faith. I found to my surprise, as those who know Jesus Christ have experienced over and over to their amazed joy, the very Spirit of God confirm in my heart that I was His beloved child and He was my loving Father. Through the Bible, through prayer, through the lives of other believers, in my relationship with Him, He continues to help me and change me.
Jesus said “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”
This is my witness to the truth of Christ. But see for yourself and read the apologia of others—one of the most famous is the gospel of John.
I have to go do some other things that are past due right now, so it might be tonight or tomorrow before I can check in again.
INC on August 21, 2007 at 8:11 PM
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