Video: Michelle & Co discuss the Arellano case on The Factor
posted at 9:07 pm on August 20, 2007 by Bryan
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The dearly deported Elvira Arellano was in this country illegally, and she used a fraudulent Social Security number to obtain a job at O’Hare airport, where she washed airplanes. But Kirsten Powers doesn’t see any problems with this. She said repeatedly during tonight’s segment on The Factor that being able to come to the US is a “human right” in the context that freedom of movement is a human right. By that logic, the entire world ought to be made US citizens by fiat. Why not, if we’re going to just let them all violate our sovereignty and traipse across the borders without any semblance of order or any attempt to keep foreign criminals, terrorists and the like out of our country? This point of view makes hash of any attempt to secure the nation from any threat whatsoever, be it terrorism, narcotrafficking, human smuggling, whatever. If you live in Laredo, TX or any of the other US cities under constant threat from Mexico’s drug wars, your right to live in peace in your own country is of no concern. If you work in an industry in which illegals depress wages by working for less than you can afford to, and upon which they pay little or no taxes, your right to work in your own country for a fair wage is of no concern. If you live in a city or state where social services are being pillaged by illegal aliens and their children at your expense, tough. And don’t you dare complain about any of this, or you’ll get called a “nativist” or worse. Your emphasis on having an orderly system of migration is an unhealthy obsession. Your attempts to impose order on chaos are either misguided or racist.
If you’re a legal immigrant who waited your turn, paid the fees and live by the law now that you’re here, you’re a sucker. The respect that you pay to US law and sovereignty is not appreciated in the least.
And Powers is one of the reasonable Democrats. Let that sink in. And then watch tonight’s Factor segment with Michelle, Kirsten and Bill. The boss and Bill make all the right points, but they fall on deaf ears.
Fraudulent use of a SSN is a crime. Elvira Arellano broke US law to get here twice, and had a sensitive job that ought to have required a thorough background check that would have found her out. Since she had that job, presumably someone else who lives in this country legally couldn’t have that job. That’s three crimes en route to a job that she should not have held in a post 9-11 world. Then, when deported Sunday night, Arellano chose politics over her son and left him here in the US with strangers, while once again slamming the US (which is far more welcoming of immigrants than Mexico is or ever will be) on her way out. This is a hero? According to reasonable Democrat Kirsten Powers, yes. One who ought to be allowed to live in the US regardless of her crimes or her attitude of entitlement toward a country of which she is not a citizen or legal resident, and against which she committed fraud.
If you peel the skin off this thinking, the law is meaningless and US citizenship is worthless, not something to be striven for or sought through effort. It’s just a human right to grant to any would-be identity thief on the planet, no matter what effect that has on US security, sovereignty or economics. In a world run along this kind of thinking, there is no reason whatsoever to obey the laws. Manufacture SSNs to your heart’s content, no matter whose identity you steal or what effect your actions have on the integrity of the American legal system. Don’t concern yourself about that. Just get what’s yours as a “human right.” If you’re a photogenic person with a sob story, all the better. You’ll make a great prop.
Update (AP): What Powers is saying isn’t even left-wing; it’s simply insane. It amounts to a United States without borders, an idea you’d be hard-pressed to find a single prominent Senate Democrat willing to agree with publicly, I suspect.
I don’t know if she’s sincerely drifted left in her thinking, if she’s feigning it as part of the center’s grand pander to the nutroots, or if she was always this nutty and I just didn’t see it, but I’ve misjudged her significantly enough that I think it warrants some sort of formal acknowledgment. Sorry for the error and for having wasted your time.
Update (BP): Sevenload did something strange to the video. I’m in the process of fixing it.
Update (BP): Video fixed.
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Glenn Beck does an equally awesome job with this subject on Headline News tonight too… check it out if you can.
MT on August 20, 2007 at 9:09 PM
So if this woman wanted to get in legally, could she have done so?
I tend to doubt it, but I dont claim to know for a fact. I still have a hard time despising the woman for coming here from Mexico (or wherever) to wash planes because she wanted to make more money. As I said if I was born in MOST places in the world I’d want to come to the USA or the UK or Canada or hell any modern western democracy.
Yeah she’s a moonbat for bashing this country and using her kid, but overall I come away thinking she’s an idiot, but an idiot that was in a bad situation and was trying to make it better… in a very misguided way. So fine no points for being smart and savvy.
Dash on August 20, 2007 at 9:18 PM
Good riddance and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out honey.
repvoter on August 20, 2007 at 9:20 PM
Yep, Glenn Beck rocks, If they could get Michelle and Dennis miller over there, they could give Fox a run for their money.
TheSitRep on August 20, 2007 at 9:23 PM
I was surprised that KP basically said we shouldn’t be allowed to have any border control. I know many think that, but I’m surprised to see someone say it out loud.
frankj on August 20, 2007 at 9:26 PM
Unfortunately, Arellano’s son demonstrates the true purpose of anchor babies…to gain political and social sympathy so that she can stay in America illegally.
There are some cases where people are deported along with their children even though the kids were born here.
Kirsten is dead wrong here when she believes that illegal aliens have a right to come here. It is not America’s fault that many countries south of the border do nothing to give their citizens a reason to live in their countries.
It is anarchy, Kirsten. Michelle and Bill are quite correct that it is not an entitlement to come here…it is a priviledge to do so.
The False Dervish on August 20, 2007 at 9:28 PM
He absolutely nailed it tonight… wish I had the video link to post here. Glenn is fantastic. Hannity, on the other hand, just did a really poor job on this tonight in my opinion. Colmes was allowed the high ground saying “I’m for family values… they should be allowed to stay together” and Hannity blew the obvious… that it was her decision to leave her child here.
MT on August 20, 2007 at 9:28 PM
Count Liberala has once again bitten the neck of KP.
The False Dervish on August 20, 2007 at 9:29 PM
Kirsten and other Leftists support the murder of children by the millions if the liberties of a mother are threatened by giving the child a life, but have a Mexican mother desert her child to get some press time, and motherhood becomes sacred and above all borders.
..and her comment about hiding criminals in churches being the Christian thing to do? Leftists now are experts on what Christianity stands for. Get a Bible (not Sharpton’s or Jackson’s),turn to the New Testament and read it, Kirstan.
All hail the new Latino Sheehan.
Hening on August 20, 2007 at 9:30 PM
Kirsten is pro-life, actually.
Bryan on August 20, 2007 at 9:31 PM
Nothing new there, what’s different; after last year is the huge numbers of American citizens who regardless of political affiliation are ready to get up in arms about the fiasco that is the illegal immigration ‘problem’.
If KP thinks it’s a human right to live where ever anyone pleases she may as well hop a Weasua airlines flight to Liberia and purchase a nice new corrugated steel home because according to her application of human rights there won’t be any future difference.
Speakup on August 20, 2007 at 9:34 PM
The make-up staff at FOX was not kind to Michelle tonight. Probably friends of Geraldo.
jaime on August 20, 2007 at 9:40 PM
When did she sneak across for the second time, and when did she have the kid? Seems to me like she broke the law for (at least) the second time, after she was deported in ‘98, to have the kid here. These anchor babies are killing us in multiple ways as well. Wait til he’s old enough to join a gang or something similar since he has no parent at all now.
Now if KP can say this on the biggest cable TV show on air and she IS the moderate voice of the left, I fear for our country more than ever.
I just can not fathom that type of thinking. What can they base this open border lunacy on? Do each of us get to choose which laws we will abide by and which we will not?
Say nothing of the terrorist factor and it is still lunacy.
I’m starting to believe deeply that we need Tom Tancredo in the White House or at minimum head of Homeland Security for a decade or so.
shooter on August 20, 2007 at 9:41 PM
Yeah, I caught what KP said about what the church did as the Christian thing to do. Uh… no. Romans 13 is pretty clear that we are to obey the law. I could see Christian counseling that would assure a law breaker, “Jesus loves you and will forgive you if you ask, but you really need to turn yourself in to authorities.” From what I’ve heard, the church in this case is acting politically, not spiritually.
Ordinary1 on August 20, 2007 at 9:42 PM
Actually in the UN general assembly you have the right to a job,a right to move whereever you want and the right to healthcare.
The have been expanding human rights for a while
William Amos on August 20, 2007 at 9:49 PM
She’s obviously not a moderate; you should get out of the habit of saying that. I realize I led you to believe that she is, but I added an update about that above. Sorry to all the HA readers for misjudging her.
Allahpundit on August 20, 2007 at 9:52 PM
CBS video on this
This deportation takes us back to the days of slavery
William Amos on August 20, 2007 at 9:54 PM
Didnt work try
HERE
William Amos on August 20, 2007 at 9:56 PM
Perhaps Kirsten isn’t too bright?
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 9:57 PM
I know I’m preachen to the choir here. However, some hard knoxs facts of the “American Kind” are also in order. I lost a good paying/good benefits job over 7 years. Because of her and all the illegals ANCHOR BABIES I now pay close to 6 grand a year for health ins. and we used it twice in the last 6 years for minor stuff.. I am making less per hour than I made 15 years ago. My taxes like yours keep going up to pay for all these ANCHORS schooling and jail time..When the ANCHORS grow up they like to drive by our house’s blasting loud music and rattling out our windows, its their way to say hi (I guess) and remind us who we are dealing with. I already have two familys of them out here in the suburbs and you would think it was 10 familys or more. They drove me and my family out of our last home, and it’s not looking good here either. Why can’t that ANCHOR just go back to mexico with mom.
Legions on August 20, 2007 at 9:58 PM
I do not despise this woman. I despise what she stands for - disrespect and maligning of American laws and sovereignty. She created and exploited serious security flaws by gaining access to our airlines post 9/11. To give her a pass is to give a pass to anyone else who can muster up a sob story, gang members, drunk drivers and child rapists notwithstanding.
Furthermore she echoes the rhetoric about America being racist and anti-immigrant. She used a stolen SSN possibly creating massive problems for some unsuspecting citizen.
She was not misguided. She was selfish and jumped ahead of the tens of thousands of other applicants who are waiting in line to become legal citizens. Some of those patient people are in situations worse than hers. But they did not violate our laws then spit in our face.
I understand her situation, but I will reserve my sympathy for the truly deserving.
I think you should examine the facts and consider speaking up on behalf of American citizenship as opposed to document fraud, race-baiting and arrogant scofflaws.
The Race Card on August 20, 2007 at 10:02 PM
Hey, no big deal. I figured you had the hots for her and were giving her a pass. We all misjudge.
repvoter on August 20, 2007 at 10:07 PM
Hey, I said that to prod you, AP, before I saw your update:
Wow. That’s some clarification.
I think the answer is simpler. She’s letting her heart speak for her mind:
And such a person can’t be trusted with border security and respect for or enforcing law.
Kirsten seems pretty maternal today. I dunno. Maybe she’s preggers or something.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 10:07 PM
No need to be sorry. We all make judgements, then adjust them when more facts are available. Ten years ago I sort of liked McCain.
jaime on August 20, 2007 at 10:08 PM
This liberal attitude toward illegal immigration borders on bizarre, and yet KP is an intelligent, thoughtful commentator? The list is literally endless on the negative effects of illegal immigration on our communities.
Lets just list one, HEALTHCARE:
As someone who worked in the hospital industry for many years, I can tell you that the single biggest contributor to spiraling healthcare cost is “indigent care”, or providing healthcare to those that cannot and/or will not pay for it. Illegal immigrants are the biggest portion of indigent care. A single hospital will literally provide MILLIONS of dollars each year in “FREE” healthcare to illegal immigrants. This “FREE” healthcare has a direct (negative) impact on everything from a community’s healthcare services to local, state and federal taxes. The issue to way too complicated to discuss any further.
You could list another 100 BIG issues like this. A country that chooses to create an entirely new class of undocumented people that are allowed to roam the country without “paying into the system” are asking for a future where your liberties will oneday have to be retracted in order to regain control of communities that have been lost.
realVerse on August 20, 2007 at 10:09 PM
Arellano is the latest Cindy Sheehan.
BobH on August 20, 2007 at 10:13 PM
Maybe KP has something in the works that has changed her point of view? How can she be so off on this issue and almost “right” on others? Maybe she and Geraldo have a new show coming up…
d1carter on August 20, 2007 at 10:14 PM
Kirsten’s site is on your blogroll.
Wow, I just went to Powers Point and I realized Hot Air didn’t even make it on her list of Daily Reading.
Screw her, no pun intended!
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 10:16 PM
I can see why she is for open borders. Unrestricted immigration means millions of Dim voters when they all migrate to states with Moter-Voter laws. When that happens, and Dims control absolutely all aspects of gummint, our way of life will swirl down the can.
geekrunner on August 20, 2007 at 10:27 PM
So. Who is responsible for this situation?
1. Cindy Sheehan
2. Christianity
3. Ms. Arellano
4. Government
5. Some other idgit.
Randy
williars on August 20, 2007 at 10:29 PM
The kid’s an American citizen. Just as much as you are.
Big S on August 20, 2007 at 10:29 PM
Bryan,
I agree with you on her first two crimes, but I think the third is a reach. Having someone perform the same job equally well for less money would push the cost of goods lower and ultimately benefit consumers of the product.
For national security reasons I agree with stepped up enforcement across both borders and better policing of illegal overstays of visas. However, given the current 4.5% unemployment rate the country is at full employment and requires an increase in legal immigrants, especially given the native population growth is below 1%.
dedalus on August 20, 2007 at 10:30 PM
If you had a kid overseas, don’t think you’d leave him/her there, even if u could.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 10:33 PM
Kirsten Powers is an idiot. It was easy to see that she had no idea what she was talking about. To actually say out loud that all people should be allowed to move and live wherever they want (her “free movement”) shows what childish and naive reasoning rules her mind. Someone should have simply asked her what the word “sovereignty” means.
By extension, I guess she also thinks that everyone in the world should be able to vote in American elections.
Kirsten Powers sounded like a 10 year old. Amazing.
progressoverpeace on August 20, 2007 at 10:33 PM
Someone needs to tell Kirsten that there’s actually a way to come to this country legally. I don’t think she’s aware of that.
redzap on August 20, 2007 at 10:35 PM
Not your deal, AP. Stupid people don’t have a method for evaluating issues, and they stumble into positions we agree with sometimes. It makes it very hard to understand their thinking.
And make no mistake, her position is stupid = “it’s a human right to sneak into the country, defy the Federal judicial system, steal my ssn and go to work”.
Jaibones on August 20, 2007 at 10:35 PM
I think you miss the point. Her lefty friends are trying to build an argument that she shouldn’t be removed from this country because her son is a citizen; Anchor is suggesting that this issue works both ways.
And it does.
Jaibones on August 20, 2007 at 10:37 PM
That’s an individual decision, based on circumstances here and there (wherever there is.) Vague hypotheticals are of no use in determining what one person chooses to do in a situation like this.
Big S on August 20, 2007 at 10:37 PM
KP’s smart. KP’s honorable, she’s intellectually honest, and she has our basic values. Not driven so much by an agenda as the Dem leadership nowadays. With KP, it’s a difference in judgment more than values and worldview.
Sure, KP’s nutty on some isues. It’s her lib gene acting up.
petefrt on August 20, 2007 at 10:37 PM
She’s not an idiot. That’s what’s so mystifying about this. I don’t know what the hell happened to her.
Allahpundit on August 20, 2007 at 10:38 PM
You misunderstand. Crimes one and two are the two times she snuck into the US illegally. Crime three is the fraudulent of a SSN. Taking the job isn’t a crime, but is unfair to whoever would have had that job (assuming that they’re here legally), and does point to gaping holes in our security.
Bryan on August 20, 2007 at 10:38 PM
Jaibones on August 20, 2007 at 10:37 PM
I was responding to a specific comment, not judging the merits of whether she stays or goes. Deport her, fine, but having people here argue that she should take the kid with her without knowing the circumstances he would find himself in in Mexico, bugs me a little. The attitude of the commenter I initially responded to seemed to indicate that he/she wants to remove the kid from the country, whether or not it is in his best interest. My response was simply that you can’t do that, since the kid is just as much of a citizen as anybody else.
Big S on August 20, 2007 at 10:43 PM
This is possible. But we might do well to reserve our venom for our larger enemies…. not 10 year olds but those among us who actively seek to undermine our values, our government… indeed western civilization.
petefrt on August 20, 2007 at 10:43 PM
Isn’t lying on a security background check document another crime?
She would — surely — have had to sign such a document.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 10:44 PM
Hi Bryan,
Thanks for clarifying your point. I agree on the SSN fraud. It is alarming how many places my SSN resides unsecurely. Though some of my libertarian friends disagree, I’d like to see a tamper-proof, biometric, ID for all citizens.
dedalus on August 20, 2007 at 10:44 PM
It’ll never happen.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 10:45 PM
I’ve been around for a while, I’ve seen her on couches with Michelle and the gang, TV, radio, etc. I think she WAS moderate. What happened? The dems attacked her and set her straight. Notice how many people around Michelle are hitting it big? So the left had to silence or change her voice, a voice heard all over the country on Fox and blogs.
I could be wrong, but I dont think she’s sincere in her far left rhetoric now….look at her eyes, she forces it. But give it time, she could be moonbatty as any of ‘em soon enough.
There is something on the left that runs many things. Soros? I dont know. Look at that ninny, the past president of the Dem youth Jane Flemming…one mistake, and she is gone.
shooter on August 20, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Hopefully she’s not being influenced by evil forces, shooter. Her pro-life views could be next to fall.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 10:48 PM
That’s only true if the taxpayers were not subsidizing the cost of performing those jobs with health care, food stamps, child care, education, and so on. Illegals sucking U.S. social services dry only serves to shift the cost of doing business from the employer to the taxpayer.
When you see employers having to hire legal residents, you will see tax burdens decrease and/or social services improve.
I think most of the difference between labor market wages and illegal wages goes into the pocket of the employer, not to lower prices.
jaime on August 20, 2007 at 10:52 PM
It is not a right for any person in this world to be an American. It is a privilege. Big difference.
katieanne on August 20, 2007 at 10:56 PM
I understand your thinking on this. She has been able to put together decent arguments in the past, and has, at times, shown inklings of understanding. I agree with you that there have been some circumstances in which she was much more sane than the rest on her side, but this performance said something about the deeper workings of her mind.
I was a bit harsh with the label, but I do think that she is not smart, at all. I am as disappointed as you, but this was such a fundamental flaw in her logic as to leave little doubt in my mind about what she is truly able to comprehend.
She seems like a nice person, and she’s obviously cute, but her argument was really stunning, to me. She doesn’t seem to understand that she is just against the notion of the nation-state. I wonder how this impinges on her attitude about the UN?
I was just floored by what she said. Really.
progressoverpeace on August 20, 2007 at 10:56 PM
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 10:48 PM
I cant tell if your kidding or not. Evil being the far left? or evil as in spiritual war? Either way, I hope she doesn’t fall that far either.
shooter on August 20, 2007 at 10:57 PM
Don’t get that. Clearly not all libs are idiots. But they can be delusional, or power hungry, or any number of other things.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 10:57 PM
The phrase open borders is an oxymoron. If they’re open they’re not borders.
aengus on August 20, 2007 at 11:00 PM
Both, not kidding.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 11:00 PM
Maybe, but hope not.
An earlier post suggested we reserve our venom for those among us who would undermine our country. By that I meant the Stalinist left in general, and the useful idiots of George Soros in particular.
petefrt on August 20, 2007 at 11:02 PM
That’s precisely what she is doing by negating the notion of sovereignty and borders and nationality.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Say, for example, people who think it is a “human right” to invade America, steal my ssn, and go to work at O’Hare, *cleaning airplanes for international flights*.
Right?
Jaibones on August 20, 2007 at 11:07 PM
There’s nothing “the left” can do to her to change her opinion. That’s just conspiracy theorizing. I do wonder, though, if she’s angling for some sort of job in politics again if and when Hillary is elected. (She worked in Bill Clinton’s administration so it’s not far fetched.) That would at least explain why she’s suddenly moving left on issues like these and why she’s so very polite in refusing to criticize Hillary for kissing Kos’s ass.
Ultimately, I reject that theory just because I don’t want to believe Powers is a liar who’d shape her opinion for personal gain. I don’t think she is. So I’m forced to conclude that she really does believe this crap. I’m not sure which is more depressing.
Allahpundit on August 20, 2007 at 11:09 PM
Jaime,
Your first point is well taken. A similar argument is made with regard to the “fully-loaded” cost of a gallon of gas, given the externalities.
Your third point isn’t strictly related to illegal immigration. My observation of free markets is that consumers ultimately benefit from decreased labor costs, whether that is from moving jobs to cheaper labor market or through technological efficiency.
Employers will add to their margin when they can but market forces will usually have competitors forcing prices lower.
dedalus on August 20, 2007 at 11:09 PM
She wants to be kind, and good and decent. She doesn’t want the world she once lived in to go away. She can’t face what she knows. She’s also a she.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 11:13 PM
Exactly.
There are conflicting figures about just how many hospitals or emergency rooms have actually closed due to indigent care expenses. But between 30 and 75 reportedly closed in the past decade as a result of rampant illegal immigration and its impact on our health care system.
Is invasion too harsh of a word?
The Race Card on August 20, 2007 at 11:18 PM
AP, if you look at her face in the beginning she looks totally uncomfortable, like she’s not acting completely of her own agency.
I think she’s being disingenuous. She’ll say and do things she doesn’t believe and, as she gets more committed and rewarded, she’ll believe them.
This is a pattern that’s repeated itself throughout history.
That’s what I meant more than anything by evil (or “dark”) forces.
She’s making a deal with the devil and it’s a slippery slope.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 11:22 PM
JiangxiDad has the other possibility.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 11:22 PM
There is a germ of truth in this:
I call it the Berlin Wall Principle. No government should restrict emigration. When a government decides to build a wall to keep people in, giving the border guards orders to shoot to kill anyone who tries to leave, that’s prima facie evidence that the government is evil.
One of the reasons I get so pissed off at the leftists who talk about our border or the Israeli fence as equivalent to the Berlin Wall is that they’re missing the key difference between keeping people out and in.
The Monster on August 20, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Is KP watching too much Geraldo or worse. . .
Dang ! ! !
Texyank on August 20, 2007 at 11:24 PM
I know it’s depressing AP, but my heart is light. I can’t be mad at Kirsten, or Kos, or Javier, Elvira, Alex Jones, or Mitch McConnell.
I am just having a field day emailing the link from YouTube of that Islamist Piece of Shiite blowing himself up with the mortar launcher.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, thank you…
Jaibones on August 20, 2007 at 11:24 PM
And I believe this theory. Personal gain is motivating her whether it’s forced to comply for a job with Shillary, or to stay ahead in the news game.
I don’t think she’s a liar, or that she thinks she’s a liar, but listen to her. She has a suddenly new vocabulary, or maybe an extended lexicon and coaching from the far left.
Admittedly she changed. Why? And how did she change so drastically and so fast?
This is NOT the KP we used to know and love.
shooter on August 20, 2007 at 11:26 PM
And the US has a proud record of granting political asylum. We have nothing to apologize for in this regard.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 11:29 PM
Power is pretty religious so she wouldn’t be likely to lie.
Allahpundit on August 20, 2007 at 11:29 PM
JiangxiDad and Jaibones:
I can respect folks with different views, even naive or counterproductive views, so long as their values are honorable, and their views are honest and in good faith. I put KP in the honest and good faith category. Sure, the unintended consequences may, indeed probablty are as you say. But still, I believe she speaks in good faith. Wrong, with likely ill consequences, but not ill-willed.
Contrast KP to Reid, Pelosi, Kennedy, Kerry, H. Clinton, et al. who use words not for message but for effect, INTENDING to use their words and influence to undermine our society, culture and government, to the end that they gain control and transform this land into the antithesis of America as we know it.
petefrt on August 20, 2007 at 11:30 PM
Har har. Me too, AP. Me too.
petefrt on August 20, 2007 at 11:33 PM
There is so much that is wrong in this country concerning the illegal immigration situation but that this woman was working at an airport from illegal documents is just terrifying beyond words. This time it was a single mother from Mexico, next time it could be an Islamist planting bombs in the cargo holds of aircraft. Even the most hardcore open borders supporter needs to consider this risk but they seem unable or unwilling to do so and KP unfortunately fell into that group that is unwilling to consider those risks for their own personal feel good reasons.
Yakko77 on August 20, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Don’t know. If so, that just get’s us back to dumb which AP rules out.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 11:35 PM
this gets my vote. In other words, typical.
JiangxiDad on August 20, 2007 at 11:38 PM
That’s my deepest fear, AP. That she may be having a spiritual crisis.
Religious people like her and I — whether our religious ideas are objectively true or not — are affected by our decisions and see them in spiritual terms.
I’m just saying she didn’t look entirely comfortable. On many issues, for example her being pro-life, something I view as an acid test of morality and spiritual decency, I salute her.
This issue her position was similar to Bush’s, but much more extreme: Not evil, not at all, just foolish, indeed motivated by goodness that both people should be smart enough to realize isn’t possible in the world as it exists.
However, I do fear KP may be letting herself for personal gain or otherwise be influenced by leftist/spiritually dark forces.
I don’t know her. You do. But obviously you’re concerned about her in some fashion if not spiritually.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 11:42 PM
I really don’t know and haven’t spoken to her for awhile now. I’m concerned that she appears to have lost her mind, but she is after all a liberal and has been pretty consistently nutty on this issue. I think it’s just her being her.
Allahpundit on August 20, 2007 at 11:47 PM
Oh, and newsflash: Religious people lie.
Christianity teaches Christians to acknowledge their sinfulness and seek forgiveness.
Religious people strive for truth, yes… but don’t count on this. You’re not saying you and your fellow atheists are dishonest and religious fundamentalists (I assume you mean Christians, but do you mean Jihadis too? I mean, THEY’re pretty religious!) don’t lie?
Not your finest argument. KP could be lying.
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 11:48 PM
I’m thinkin’ it was the Democratic Leadership Council’s Summer meeting. Maybe she attended some workshop that got her all pumped up. Perhaps she is trying harder to represent the left “better” (in their opinion) and to help get Hillary elected. Not lying, per se’, but maybe some sort of renewed sense of duty to the party. She’s not dumb, but she didn’t do a very persuasive job tonight. Maybe by trying harder to represent the left she’s becoming less effective in her arguments because she’s not so passionate about those positions.
Ordinary1 on August 20, 2007 at 11:49 PM
dedalus,
I agree with you, competition will lower prices. But that assumes a level playing field - either no employer in a given product/service market is hiring illegal workers, or all employers are hiring illegal workers to the same extent.
When a subset of employers gain a cost advantage over their competitors either one of two things will happen:
1- they will drive their competitors out of business by lowering prices below the point where their competitors can be profitable;
2- they will increase their margin.
Since I haven’t heard shouts of unfair competition I can only conclude that employers who hire illegal aliens choose to increase their margin rather than lower prices.
If I thought that all employers (in any given market) were hiring illegal labor, it would mean that the left has been correct all along and the business class in this country is totally corrupt. I’m not prepared to go there yet.
Anyway, one of the reasons the economy has historically been so strong is not because of cheap labor, but because of efficient labor through improved technology and processes. Cheap labor undermines the economy because it takes away the incentive to innovate. It allows cheaters to remain competitive in the short term, but lowers the total value of the economy in the long term because we’ll be outperformed by innovative economies. In other words, if cheap labor and corruption were the key to a strong economy, Mexico would be a powerhouse.
jaime on August 20, 2007 at 11:50 PM
– AP
I tend to agree with AP. I also agree that KP wouldn’t lie. I think that there’s more to KP’s left-ward moves of late and they may have to do more with external forces we cannot understand. For example you never know if someone like KP is trying to re-negotiate her TV contract and the network is pushing back by telling her she’s not controversial enough.
realVerse on August 20, 2007 at 11:52 PM
Based on…?
Christoph on August 20, 2007 at 11:54 PM
Yes but by that logic the Democratic Party who are overwhelmingly pro-illegal immigrant are totally corrupt. Not that I expect anyone to disagree with me but it’s worth pointing out. If it’s corrupt for business reasons then it’s also true for politics. Multicultural fantasies aren’t an excuse, it’s still a fundamental betryal.
aengus on August 20, 2007 at 11:56 PM
My view of it also. Well put.
petefrt on August 21, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Character. If that doesn’t wash then wishful thinking.
To say someone would not lie and then ascribe their nuanced change of opinion to external forces like lucrative TV contracts is to deny the basic point of morality, that people are responsible for their own actions and principles. Altering your political beliefs to secure your economic intersts may be practical but it doesn’t make you someone who “wouldn’t lie”.
aengus on August 21, 2007 at 12:02 AM
Honestly, the thought that she had been angling for a position if Hillary wins crossed my mind too. I just don’t get it, there are times where she’ll use some logic, then there are things where she just slips into nonsensical liberal doublethink. Don’t feel bad for misreading her, I had too, I’m disappointed.
Bad Candy on August 21, 2007 at 12:03 AM
I should clarify my 12:03, I agree that its probably just lefty doublethink, less her angling for a Hill gig.
Bad Candy on August 21, 2007 at 12:07 AM
KP, et al, refuse to acknowledge that this a nation governed by LAW. KP would like to stop enforcement of immigration laws. Great. I’d like to put in my bid to violate laws which require me to pay taxes. What libs can’t seem to grasp is that when you start picking and choosing what laws you personally want to obey, you have chaos. I listened to the exchange on XM radio while driving. Got so upset I switched to the Forties station.
oldleprechaun on August 21, 2007 at 12:09 AM
The security/terrorism argument is bad argument selection. So is the appeal to abstract national sovereignty. Thought so today when I listened to Ingraham vs Geraldo and when O’Reilly and Malkin went for it too against KP. Neither argument persuades many people who are not already persuaded that illegal/undocumented immigration should be stopped and borders enforced.
So why doesn’t Michelle et al. go for the argument that has more rhetorical force: illegal immigration is de facto racist and impoverishing because at best it depresses the wages of those who do manual labor. At least Walmart helps the middle and lower class by lowering the prices consumer goods and food. You can’t even say that for illegal immigrants–those who most benefit from them are the rich.
I’d think you could bludgeon KP and Geraldo pretty badly with that. Even if they respond that it’s helping out the impoverished who originate from outside the U.S. you can flip the argument: so now KP and Geraldo are in favor of ‘outsourcing’ just as long as its within the U.S. boundaries; convenient for them because their jobs are not at stake. KP can have her human right of free movement across any border at the cost of jettisoning her bona fides on being a defender of the lower and middle class–sure, they are, as long as the persons are not U.S. citizens.
That and a better stated argument about crime. The point is that we have to tolerate more bad behavior with ex-con citizens, but why with non-citizens and non-prs. If you have a rebellious kid there are certain expectations for how much you tolerate from them, but those expectations are much lower for strangers. If so, then why not with non-citizens too? Or can me and my buds crash at KP’s place next time we’re in town. She and Geraldo are buying the beer.
jaychandra on August 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM
It’s pretty astounding that KP wears such a bleeding heart on her cuff.
She knows America didn’t survive and prosper because we supported the entire world inside our boundaries.
Is she really willing to live in a country called Mexico Del Norte to satisfy her compassion, is it that important to her?
Speakup on August 21, 2007 at 12:12 AM
KP is a clear example of the Golden Rule run amok. Empathy is one of the bases of Judeo-Christian culture, but many in our society are unable to control their feelings of empathy and often misunderstand them. Empathetic notions are rarely accurate, and have horrible track records in cross-cultural contexts.
Most liberal positions can be easily explained in terms of runaway guilt or runaway empathy. It is part of the bad that comes with the good of Judeo-Christian culture.
progressoverpeace on August 21, 2007 at 12:18 AM
You’re right, I won’t disagree. Especially with this: it’s still a fundamental betryal.
jaime on August 21, 2007 at 12:20 AM
Jaime,
Good points. Agreed that exclusivity is key to high margins. A non-exclusive innovation (e.g., faster computers, cell phones (inclucing iPhones)) will send prices lower since all competitors have the same access.
How pervasive is illegal labor? Does it manifest itself within individual “cheater” companies or across industries? My ad-hoc observations are that there are some industries–landscaping, restaurants, construction–and local markets where illegals become a competitive need for small businesses where a few rivals use the cheaper labor to lower prices and gain market share. In other words some of the estimated 12 million illegals have been hired by enough different employers in these markets that, absent collusion, it should be lowering prices.
We should level the playing field. Ideally, the best companies would win by having a higher quality product. However, price is often king and I do know some small business owners who have lost out to bids that seemed inconceivably low, absent the use of illegal labor.
dedalus on August 21, 2007 at 12:21 AM
Yeah, it’s really just a question of character. Of course some religious people lie, but knowing her the very little that I do and knowing how seriously she takes her faith, I’d be very, very surprised if she was dissembling.
To be clear: nothing she’s said recently is starkly contradictory to anything she’s said in the past. It may well be a simple case of me having misjudged her opinion of the nutroots and her willingness to spin for Hillary. That is to say, she may be behaving perfectly consistently and only now do we see the true tool within.
Yeah, I’ve been wondering that myself. I find it suspicious that she and Harold Ford end up taking the same see-no-evil line when it comes to the nutroots these days. The DLC wants Hillary elected and they’re willing to soft pedal their criticism of the douchebag left to make the peace needed to win votes. I expect that of Ford; he’s the chairman, after all. I didn’t expect it of Powers, who I thought had more integrity than that. I feel like Andrew Sullivan here: I fooled myself into thinking someone I admired was more admirable than they really were, and now that I’ve been disillusioned I’m going over the top in letting them have it. I’ll try to lay off her going forward. She’s not who I thought she was, but oh well.
Allahpundit on August 21, 2007 at 12:22 AM
Wondering the same.
petefrt on August 21, 2007 at 12:24 AM
As a liberal I feel that Illegal Immigration is to the right as environmentalism is to the left. I live up north and am pretty insulated from the issue, so i have sympathy for those who view it as important because it’s salience as an issue is often geographic. But as many conservatives get turned off to environmentalism because of the hysterical rhetoric surrounding it I get turned off to immigration hardliners who try to portraty illegal immigrants as some sort of violent, soulless population, raping and killing throughout the country. Maybe if there was a change in tone on immigration from the right America as a whole (namely the northern half) would become less indifferent. Irrationally demonizing immigrants (like with the b.s. statistics Ingrahm was throwing at Rivera earlier) makes a side with legitimately reasonable views seem desperate and frankly racist. Its like some sort of mass ad hominem.
crr6 on August 21, 2007 at 12:24 AM
First off, great piece Bryan. It truly reads like a nightmare in a novel about some country other than America. Is the Boss right? Are we just becoming a sanctuary country? It looks like all you got to do is show up in the U.S. and you’re automatically a defacto citizen. What’s it going to take to make us soverign again? Is KP insane, or does she really represent the Dems in this? What the hell do they think is going to happen if this continues? Is it going to take the righteous guys in the street to rise up and defend the country, as they always have done in the past, and physically throw these ‘illegals’ out in deference to the Federal Government? If the ‘G’ don’t do it, who will before it’s too late and we lose any control we have now. It seems like something crazy out of an apocalypse novel, doesn’t it. If the Democ-rats get in the White House and more seats in congress next election, what’s going to happen? Are we witnessing the end of our beautiful country as we know it?
countywolf on August 21, 2007 at 12:25 AM
Give US citizens full rights to their citizenship, which includes the right to sell it (after appropriate security checks, as with all immigrants). US citizenship is probably worth more than $400,000 (just seeing how much people pay to get forged documents) and if people saw how an invasion of illegal aliens lowered the price of US citizenship, they would react. For many people, their citizenship is the most valuable asset they have, and they should have the right to sell it. Right now, the government just prints them up and gives them away for nothing, which steals from us all.
That’s how I would solve the problem of people not understanding what US soveriegnty really is. And I’d rather have people here who want to come and are willing to pay, and I’d rather have people leave who don’t value their US citizenship so much - though the sale possibility also offers opportunities to poor citizens to start somewhere else with a decent nest egg.
progressoverpeace on August 21, 2007 at 12:31 AM
dedalus,
This is the worst situation:
because that would mean cheaters are driving honest employers out of the market. That would mean that those markets are pushing some of their costs off onto the taxpayer. Prices in those markets seem low, but when you add in the costs of social services and the cost of having the government administer them, prices are actually higher than they would be without illegal labor. Also, add in the cost of disruption caused by document fraud to government services for citizens and the true price is higher with illegal labor than it would be without it.
I suppose they don’t have any recourse given the government’s unwillingness to pursue immigration violations. Too bad. I’m glad I’m not in the position to have to compete in that environment. When the government allows lawlessness the results are never good.
jaime on August 21, 2007 at 12:43 AM
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