Netherlands Catholic bishop: Let’s ease religious tensions — by calling God “Allah”
posted at 12:57 pm on August 15, 2007 by Allahpundit
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A Roman Catholic Bishop in the Netherlands has proposed people of all faiths refer to God as Allah to foster understanding, stoking an already heated debate on religious tolerance in a country with one million Muslims.
Bishop Tiny Muskens, from the southern diocese of Breda, told Dutch television on Monday that God did not mind what he was named and that in Indonesia, where Muskens spent eight years, priests used the word “Allah” while celebrating Mass.
“Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn’t we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? … What does God care what we call him? It is our problem.”…
A survey in the Netherlands’ biggest-selling newspaper De Telegraaf on Wednesday found 92 percent of the more than 4,000 people polled disagreed with the bishop’s view, which also drew ridicule.
“Sure. Lets call God Allah. Lets then call a church a mosque and pray five times a day. Ramadan sounds like fun,” Welmoet Koppenhol wrote in a letter to the newspaper…
A spokesman from the union of Moroccan mosques in Amsterdam said Muslims had not asked for such a gesture.
Here’s background describing the latest twist in interfaith relations in Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s ex-homeland. In his own craven, dopey way, the bishop might have been trying to heal the rift. While succeeding in opening it further.
Update: More from Catholic News. It may take 100 years, says Bishop Tiny, but eventually Christians will come around.
Not the first time he’s said this, either, apparently. Nor is it the first time he’s commented on Islam:
In the past, Bishop Muskens has offended many Muslims. In 2005 he said Islam was a religion without a future because it had too many violent aspects.
If it has no future then why would Christians be calling God “Allah” in the future per his prediction?
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God, Allah, satan, mephistopheles, beelzebub, lucifer, asmodai, iblis — it’s all the same, right??
Rick on August 15, 2007 at 2:44 PM
Capital idea! I was thinking just the other day that I should buy a prayer rug so I will be ready when the servants of Allah take over…Wait a minute, I have never seen a woman praying to Mecca on a prayer rug. Well, I better get a burqa instead. Anybody know a good Muslim ‘tailor’, (holy) sheet maker?
Kini, you crack me up.
Christine on August 15, 2007 at 2:46 PM
It’s not the Catholic Church. This guy should be excommunicated. I’m a non practicing catholic but I still feel as though Catholic’s catch a bad rap by most of society due to the shameful act’s of a few “bad apples”
gberez on August 15, 2007 at 2:48 PM
At the risk of repeating myself…
I’m doing what I can to get us to 1,000…Yes, I like ellipsis
ConstantSorrow on August 15, 2007 at 2:48 PM
… and I shall refer to Allah as “Bill the sex sponge.”…
Whoops, guess my neck’s on the block now. How about Buddha (sp?) as “Truman Capote” and the Sun God as Jessica Alba…
There is no Alba but Alba!
doufree on August 15, 2007 at 2:50 PM
Why yes, yes I do.
Rick on August 15, 2007 at 2:51 PM
Hey, it’s just a name….What’s in a name????
And by that same logic, I should be able to call Mohammed “Delmer Dumbass” right?
conservnut on August 15, 2007 at 2:52 PM
Beautiful names!
captivated_dem on August 15, 2007 at 2:52 PM
The name “Allah” is derived from the pre-Islamic name for the “moon-god.” The source of this name can be traced to pagan religions practiced by the Arabs BEFORE the time of Mohammed.
Hmmm. Perhaps the bishop should be put on trial for heresy.
On the other hand, the name “Easter” is derived from the name of a god found in the pagan worship of the ancient teutonic tribes of Europe. (Correct me, if you have better information - I’m flying by-the-seat-of-my-pants here.)
Gary Schwartz recounts an amusing/amazing incident in this book where he (Gary) performs an experiment where he asks God to supply him (Gary) with a name — so that Gary knows what to call God. According to the Gary’s account, the name that Gary receives is “Sam” (or Samuel). The incident leads to some interesting discoveries. You’ll have to get a copy of the book, or I’ll ruin it for you.
So. Back to the topic at hand. My collie says:
Apologies to Mel Brooks (see Space Balls).
CyberCipher on August 15, 2007 at 2:53 PM
Let’s ease religious tensions by allowing Muslims to convert to Christianity.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 2:56 PM
Never in a millions years would I submit and call him that! The whole thing is like the dinner table scene in the movie Ricky Bobby. What can we make God/Jesus today? How can we mold him to fit what we would like instead of what should be. “I like to picture my Jesus wearing a tuxedo t-shirt. It shows he’s formal, but he’s here to party!” Europe just plain sucks anyways.
gator70 on August 15, 2007 at 2:58 PM
Call God by the name of Allah because it’s just a word? What a niggardly sense of the power of words.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 3:00 PM
Thank you! It’s kind of funny, however, that in a post about the name and nature of the Deity that some folks are confusing the names of a couple of sets of humans.
Relax, those who keep making that mistake. Here’s some assistance: the Danes (Denmark) are the ones whose ancestors refused to turn over their Jewish population to the Nazis and who published those fun Muhammad cartoons.
The Dutch are the ones who ran Ayaan Hirsi Ali out of the Netherlands.
baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 3:00 PM
Esthier, may I respectfully comment on your above points?
Concerning your above point 2, I have a comment that is a really a question/comment because I am unclear if you are thinking the same topic I was when I first read your comment. I hope I am not misunderstanding your position.
It appears that you are advocating the position that words can be reduced to community-based human usages. You write, “Words do have power, but it’s mostly the power that we give them, not powers they have innately.”
I agree that the power of semantics (or the words or sentences themselves) arise from the power that we as humans give them. But concepts and propositions are not identical to words themselves. A chair in Spanish is different linguistically from a chair in Swahili, but the concept or proposition expressed by “chair” is the same despite the linguistic differences. This is because propositions or concepts are the engines of cognitive discourse. Propositions or concepts can never be reduced to semantics or words or humanly agreed upon sentences. I agree with you that words are just semantic, helpful guides. I disagree that propositions arise from the “powers that we give them.” Propositions are independent of humans, because rationality itself is independent of humans.
I apologize if I am misunderstanding your original post.
Concerning your above point 3, I politely disagree, but because of time constraints, I cannot dive into that here.
Concerning point 4, my response is “excellent point!!”
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 3:01 PM
Allah is a very beautiful word for God.
The sound of it makes me want to puke.
Blake on August 15, 2007 at 3:05 PM
(To the melody ‘Tiny Bubbles”)
Tiiiiiny Muskens
Been in the wine
Makes him feel happy
Makes him talk like swine -
Weak, I know, but I never write rhymes.
TinMan13 on August 15, 2007 at 3:05 PM
Let’s ease religious tensions with a worldwide agreement to refer to all members of Al Qaeda as apostates.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 3:07 PM
What the hell, let’s call the Most High “Chuck E. Cheeze” and have done with it.
I mean, it’s not like they could sue.
mojo on August 15, 2007 at 3:10 PM
I have no words for the extent of this dhimmitude.
No, I have one. Disgusting.
Darksean on August 15, 2007 at 3:10 PM
The Dutch make a mean farska fiska though.
captivated_dem on August 15, 2007 at 3:12 PM
Wow that was a lot of words. If I could understand it I might even agree.
But it still counts only as one post toward the 1000 goal.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 3:12 PM
I forgot to mention…
But the point is, the concept of God is markedly different from the word, “God.”
The concept (or proposition) expressed by the word, “God” in the Christian worldview is radically different than the concept expressed by the word, “Allah” in the Islamic worldview.
I have no problem changing semantics or adapting different linguistic practices. After all, “God” in Swahili may be interpreted (on a linguistic level only) differently than “God” in Norweigian. This is not to say that as a Christian I would feel very comfortable calling God “Allah.” I would not feel comfortable precisely because I do know and I do understand clearly the concept that is expressed in the word, “Allah.”
I do have philosophical problems with redefining concepts. Because concepts are independent of us humans, and cannot be changed or redefined, at the risk of introducing logical contradiction.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 3:15 PM
“In Allah we trust”…..NO
“Allah bless America”……NO
It will be a cold day…..
cjn on August 15, 2007 at 3:17 PM
I’ve heard people say that (Allah = God) before: Christians, Jews, Muslims. But just try to get a Muslim to say Jehovah = Allah. Talk about inducing convulsions, sputtering, and all around allergic reactions.
- The Cat
MirCat on August 15, 2007 at 3:17 PM
C’mon people. The Roman Emperor Caligula made his horse a Senator and planned to erect a statue of himself in Herod’s temple in Jerusalem — so that the Jews could worship him (instead of the one true God).
Seems to me that Bishop Tiny is ONLY following in-the-foot-steps of Roman tradition. Why not substitute the “moon-god”?
/sarcasm off
CyberCipher on August 15, 2007 at 3:17 PM
Overheard in Bishop Tiny’s office:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2007 at 3:20 PM
Beauty and puke don’t typically reside in a persons’ thought process concurrently; though I somewhat agree.
captivated_dem on August 15, 2007 at 3:22 PM
Usually, “lots of words” indicate that the writer does not know how to communicate clearly or that the writer does not know enough about his subject matter. In my case, I am probably guilty of both….But it does not help when I am also trying to multi-task 3 work projects here. :-)
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 3:24 PM
What does God care what we call him? It is our problem.”…
And that’s why, instead of all this old terms for deities, we should instead adopt the name “Krydor” for the unknowable. However, you can still reach me by email. I’ll be a modern and with it type higher being.
Krydor on August 15, 2007 at 3:28 PM
Cthulhu would be my choice.
ConstantSorrow on August 15, 2007 at 3:31 PM
When I was younger I was told the name was Clapton.
Limerick on August 15, 2007 at 3:43 PM
Well, what about Krishna, or Shiva, or hey Mac? How about Quetzalcoatl? (That one would make “ho-rawl-doe” and amigos feel more comfortable.) Perhaps someone needs to see what is in the good bishops wine.
Does the bishop care what we call him? Maybe dopey, or brain-dead, or, unfit for his Holy office, or, or, or…
oldleprechaun on August 15, 2007 at 3:45 PM
Why limit to the one word? Why not have the whole continent speak only Arabic? What a clueless putz…
clghitis on August 15, 2007 at 3:47 PM
I don’t know what the fuss is.. Texas Churches have been equating Allah with God for decades.. as in..
“Allah us believe in God and Jesus”
GoodBoy on August 15, 2007 at 3:51 PM
ColtsFan, At least you didn’t use my style of trying so hard for concise that I end up with obtuse.
Words count. They are the only labels we have for concepts. (Well except for Diana Troy.) Words are used in memory to “tag” concepts. The concept I have for God is too powerful to allow changing labels.
Count words.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 3:52 PM
So what else does this Tribal Shaman recommend we change the name of?
I can call him a “tribal Shaman” correct? That’s simply a different society’s rough equivalent of “Bishop” isn’t it?
gekkobear on August 15, 2007 at 3:54 PM
demon moon god = Allah
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = God
There is a difference. The bible makes it clear that prayer to false gods is prayer to demons. Allah is just another false god in a pantheon of false gods. This bishop is a moron.
Hey bishop, why don’t you just become a Muslim? THAT would ease tensions and maybe they’d let you live.
Mojave Mark on August 15, 2007 at 3:54 PM
I suppose we should just burn those arabic-speaking Christians and Jews who have used the word ‘allah’ to refer to God as heretics, then. We should also dig up all of those who did so before Islam was invented and burn them, too. Just to be thorough. :rolly eye face here:
And by the by, the Aramaic word for God (that is to say one of the featured languages in The Passion of The Christ as filmed by Gibson) would be ‘alah’ or ‘elah.’ Guess we’d best burn them folks, too, while we’re at it.
Or we could stop being so damned parochial, and understand that Jesus didn’t preach in King James Version English. Surprisingly enough.
As someone else noted, the Christian concept of God (Dios, Gott, etc.) is not the Muslim concept of God. That is the important part, not the noises your face makes.
TABoLK on August 15, 2007 at 3:58 PM
There. Fixed that for ya’. No need to thank me. Just bein’ neighborly.
CyberCipher on August 15, 2007 at 3:59 PM
Bishop Tiny Muskens makes me long for the day when the Catholic Church burned heretics at the stake.
georgej on August 15, 2007 at 4:02 PM
My God and allah are 2 completely different deities. They are not one and the same, and it’s an insult to God for this bishop to say they are. IMO.
StephC on August 15, 2007 at 4:05 PM
It’ll never happen, this is the Netherlands so no one cares.
RightWinged on August 15, 2007 at 4:08 PM
BTW, despite my comments refuting the silly ‘moon god’ junk and other ill-informed complaints about the word ‘allah,’ I still think this is a stupid move by Mr. Tiny. Dutch has a word for God. That is the word Dutch people should use. Arabs should use their word, Jews should use theirs, Italians should use theirs, etc. That this bishop is a moron is clear. This Chick Tract retread of an argument against the word itself that fills the thread, though, is useless.
TABoLK on August 15, 2007 at 4:08 PM
Me thinks the not so good bishop has been making the Kool-Aid with his bong water.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 4:10 PM
The good bishop is obviously under the infleunce of medical marijuana
Ann on August 15, 2007 at 4:12 PM
No, he’s been driven insane by leftist dogma. Which is far more oppressive against ‘heresies’ than Christian dogma these days.
TABoLK on August 15, 2007 at 4:14 PM
Thou shalt not have false gods before me.
That is the first commandment, right?
What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form, in moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god!
Yup, jus lookin in the da mirror at my glorious naked body.
Doing my part to reach 1000 comments.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 4:14 PM
Actually, if you’ve ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), this wouldn’t be much of a surprise. The day may come when Rome joins in league with the Islamofascists.
Paragraph 841 of the CCC:
Hey, I ain’t makin’ this stuff up.
BigOrangeAxe on August 15, 2007 at 4:15 PM
Hamlet was a whiner.
Just helping out.
TABoLK on August 15, 2007 at 4:16 PM
…and if that doesn’t put the fear of God into Bishop Tiny, well then..
My collie says:
The stupid dog is entitled to his opinion, isn’t he?
CyberCipher on August 15, 2007 at 4:18 PM
Also, Hamlet would not have prayed to Allah. He would have, literally, prayed LIKE A VIKING.
Shout-out to any AoSHQers.
TABoLK on August 15, 2007 at 4:19 PM
Convert! We’ve got wine and bong juice! And you don’t have to lose your head over it!
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 4:19 PM
How about the “Grand PooBaa”
conservnut on August 15, 2007 at 4:22 PM
Let’s ease religious tensions by having an Iran and Israel recognize each other.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 4:24 PM
I’ll Go with Rush hallowed be thy name.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 4:24 PM
Yeah, it didn’t turn out well for him did it.
Sure, but since dogs can do things humans can’t, you wonder why they need us to feed them. Mysterious ways and means.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 4:26 PM
Let’s ease religious tensions by having CAIR condemn today’s bombings in Iraq.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 4:27 PM
Let’s ease religious tensions by starting an ecumenical council that drafts a resolution declaring atheists as the source of all evil in the world.
(Just doing my part to get AllahPundit to participate.)
CyberCipher on August 15, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Hehe. :-)
Could we agree on the following then?
Words count ***contingently***. They are the only ***linguistic*** labels we have for concepts, ***which are absolute and are not contingent***.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 4:31 PM
I guess if Allah and god are two different deities, then
The Judeo-Christian god is the god of freedom, invention and prosperity
And
Allah Is the god of slavery, backwardness and misery.
I am saying that because of what I saw of the several Muslim countries I’ve been to.
If I came from one of those sh*tholes I’d probably want to blow myself up too.
Have ya ever drank that crappy Murray brand scotch in Pakistan? Christ that stuff is bad!
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 4:40 PM
How we doin on the count?
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 4:41 PM
Remember. The Netherlands is the country that evicted Ayaan Hirshi Ali because it was scared of islamo-facists. No amount of cowardly behavior on their part surprises me. An Islamo Facists drives a knife thru the chest of a citizen of the Netherlands (a famous one at that) and then threatens to kill a woman…and the Dutch grab ankles and kick the woman out so they can continue to live with their heads in the sand…
I realize this Bishop doesn’t represent all of his country (especially since the Catholic Church in European countries is akin to their many museums) but all the same, when any European kowtows to Islam, don’t be shocked.
The US does owe the Netherlands a debt of gratitude though–it was their cowardice that forced Ali to find a new home, and thankfully she chose America.
Montana on August 15, 2007 at 4:43 PM
2 Peter 2:1 - “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord …”
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 - “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
Acts 20:30 - “Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaing perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”
This was all prophesied. Simply because they call themselves “ministers,” “pastors,” “reverends,” or “fathers” does not mean that they are to be believed, or trusted. Judge them by their words - and whether or not their teachings correspond with the Gospel. Some who call themselves “Christians” will, also, deny Christ and the Father. This was all prophesied.
OhEssYouCowboys on August 15, 2007 at 4:44 PM
“Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not martyrs.”-CAIR coordinated the release of this fatwa.
crr6 on August 15, 2007 at 4:44 PM
ColtsFan, Next time you meet one of those non-believers who have no logical reason to believe in God ask them: “What is the source of your faith in logic”?
Logic must be based on faith because logic cannot prove itself.
My belief in God is based solely on faith, but I have quite a bit of confidence in logic too.
Back on topic. It looks like faith is a common trait of the comments on this post. That’s a good thing.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 4:50 PM
Interesting, when last I was talking to God, he said:
“You can call me anything, just don’t call me collect”
Bada Bing!
I know, I’m leaving now…
bernzright777 on August 15, 2007 at 4:54 PM
Well, then I guess everything is okay now. How nice of them.
One thing I’d like to point out about CAIR’s release is that it sure does appear to leave some wiggle room for possibly “targeting” non-innocent lives and something other than civilians’ “life and property”, and who knows what their definition of “religious extremism” is.
Rick on August 15, 2007 at 5:01 PM
We’re taking the word to the streets to all those with the calling!
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 5:03 PM
I’m sure the Muslims will riot if Christians start using the name Allah for their god.
The Pope Panzer should be pulling up soon in order to explain the God of the Trinity and the god of Mohammad to this wayward Dutchman. I’m guessing state sanctioned suicide will be suggested by Herr Pope.
“I’m putting this luger on your desk and leaving the room. You know what to do.”
Hening on August 15, 2007 at 5:07 PM
CAIR = Al-taqiyya
Perhaps CAIR could comment on this.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 5:09 PM
I have already done that here in the past. Nonfactor and other atheists were kind enough to engage in a friendly, brief philosophy of religion discussion here as well as here. Scroll down to the end of the comments.
Of course my defense for the truthfulness of the Christian worldview does not have its origin in me. I just took it from Christian guys who are a lot, lot smarter than me. And these guys took the “Argument from Truth” ultimately from the pages of Scripture.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 5:10 PM
True, God doesn’t care what he calls him. So why not call him Stupid. The priest can say in the name of the Stupid, the Son, and Holy Spirit.
Our Stupid, who art in heaven…
Stupid blesses you my son.
Stupid so loved the world that he…
Stupid loves you…and so do I.
right2bright on August 15, 2007 at 5:11 PM
That’s what I was trying to say in my own obtuse style.
1. Concepts are not contingent with language.
2. Words are contingent with language.
3. Basic concepts are stored in memory with single word tags.
Communication across cultures and languages gets a little more complicated with complex concepts that are stored with multiple word phrases that may be syntax dependent. With syntax differences there is no longer a word-for-word translation for concepts.
But that’s a whole nuther story.
The sense of your point is that reality can’t be changed by just using different words. The Bishop will only damage the language with his idea.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 5:12 PM
Okay, some of these have been a riot, but what no suggestion of Harold?
Hark, the Harold’s Angels sing….
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 5:18 PM
And what about Andy?
Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me…
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 5:18 PM
Hate to differ with you, but logic is mathematics, by it’s very nature it proves it’s self. You can however apply logic to any theorem, belief set, or problem. and if don’t work then it is illogical or you could say “it doesn’t add up”.
The reason most all cultures conceive of God in the first place is because at the age of 4 people start asking WHY? Since people do not hold the knowledge of the universe, they proceed to make up stories to answer questions. This does not answer any question but it does stand in the way of searching for those true answers. There is not an atheist in the world that can answer those question either.
I have no answer as to the origin of the universe no more than Hawking or Einstein.
But I am sure the answer does not lye in ancient mythology of the middle east.
Why and how Europe co-opted Christianity from that land of dread is a fantastic study in history.
You’ll find that road is littered with dead bodies, money and power grabs.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Okay, not a lot Southern Baptists here, that’s okay. (Just trying to increase the count too.)
by the way, Hening, that was HILARIOUS!
A Luger should about do the trick.
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Stupid is as stupid does!
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Ah, yes, the real danger would not be in what we call God, but what He in facts calls us. I think the bishop missed that part of it. Fearing the one who can (to paraphrase) cut your head off for being an infidel is okay, but it’s better to fear the One who can not only kill you, but destroy your soul as well. Allah might be frigtening, but at last check, he’s not God.
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 5:22 PM
We need to ask Sarah Siverman. I bet she’d know, given her relationship with him.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:23 PM
God cannot be allah, allah says kill people, God does not.
VTWaldrup on August 15, 2007 at 5:24 PM
The consensus among mathematicians is that logic does not prove itself. Google: Goedel. The road to that conclusion is littered with money and power grabs probably, but no dead bodies that I am aware of.
pedestrian on August 15, 2007 at 5:25 PM
Well, there’s at least one (points to self).
BigOrangeAxe on August 15, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Why is that whenever a post has something to do with the Catholic Church, someone invariably has to say some bigoted, anti-Catholic remark….like the Pope’s a Nazi? Just because a stupid bishop says something, does not mean he speaks for the Church, let alone the Pope. Indeed this Bishop has called for the use of condoms, so in that sense he has already run afoul of Church teaching. That said, I think this guy is an idiot.
Also, it’s questionable whether the Pope really “prayed” to “Allah.” Pope Benedict went to a mosque and prayed and said that “Allah” means “God”….which indeed it does….Furthermore, a theologian of the class of Benedict’s understands the differences between the Allah of Islam and the God of Christianity….His Regensburg’s address, which provoked so much controversy a little while ago, was on this subject. It was Pope John Paul II who kissed the Koran, and indeed there is some question whether he knew he was kissing a Koran or not. That said, I am all for ecumenism, but I am somewhat uncomfortable with the Pope praying in a mosque or kissing the Koran….But you can be sure that Benedict understands the potential threat Islam poses to the West…The difference between him and some of you posters is, as Pope, he doesn’t want to nuke anybody. Shocking, I know. But it really is a shame some posters say he’s a Nazi or the anti-Christ or the Whore of Babylon or closet Muslim or whatever it is you Protestants say these days.
WillBarrett on August 15, 2007 at 5:30 PM
Did you know God is Dog spelled backwards?
I once played a Black Sabbath album backwards, I saw God!
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 5:31 PM
Close but no cigar. You were denying Nonfactors belief in logic not declaring his unfounded faith in logic.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 5:32 PM
notice how there are some topics that just bring out the responders in droves, this is a good thing
VTWaldrup on August 15, 2007 at 5:33 PM
This is just from my own personal experience. I have never met a catholic that was a bible reader. No wonder they don’t get it.
cjs1943 on August 15, 2007 at 1:31 PM
Hi, cjs1943, I’m inviolet. I’m a Catholic and I read Scripture (aka the Bible). Just about every day, in fact.
I have lots of friends I’d like you to meet. They all read their Bibles too. A lot. Maybe you should make some Catholic friends who are more your style.
And now you can say you know some Catholics who are Bible readers.
Back on Topic: I would NEVER call God Allah. He’s God, the One Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), and I speak English.
inviolet on August 15, 2007 at 5:33 PM
Andy in Agoura Hills??
Rick on August 15, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Gödel’s incompleteness theorems both preclude Formal system logic.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Hening, I fear I may have misread your post….If so, I apologize….I blame it on jetlag.
WillBarrett on August 15, 2007 at 5:35 PM
No problem. :-) I have enjoyed reading your comments in the past.
You are touching upon a very interesting subject. You have made some very good points. Here is my response.
Which is ontologically prior:
logic or mathematics?
ANSWER: logic. I would say that mathematics are derived from logic.
You are also correct to point out that it is impossible to deny the “fact” of logic, or the “undeniability of logic.”
I have found the above comments interesting.
I have heard the same theology or religion is “reducible to study of history” or various anthropological or sociological explanations given for the rise of religion in the past often.
My response is that I believe that only Christian theology can both metaphysically and epistemologically ***account*** for the everyday, practical usage of the immaterial laws of logic. Concerning the second part (the epistemological account part), I now believe that Jesus Christ is the Epistemological Logos who provides Light to every man which the Gospel of John and the Book of Hebrews talk about.
Of course, my comments are now “off topic,” so out of respect to Allahpundit and the rest of the viewing audience, I will stop my comments here.
But SiteRep, you made some excellent points above.
If you want to continue the discussion, join me and that Oakland Raiders fan (PRCaldude) over at Lion of Judah-Journal, and I will open a new thread.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 5:36 PM
Uhh, you sure it was God?
Rick on August 15, 2007 at 5:36 PM
I agree…..
VTWaldrup on August 15, 2007 at 5:37 PM
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Interesting that you, apparently, consider Christianity such a waste of time - yet, something so irrelevant to you, still has to be denigrated by you?
Your lack of faith, is your prerogative. My faith, is of my God - and that is His prerogative.
John 6:65 - “… Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
Matthew 7:7 - “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”
It’s all up to you.
OhEssYouCowboys on August 15, 2007 at 5:38 PM
Hate to differ with you, but logic is mathematics, by it’s very nature it proves it’s self. You can however apply logic to any theorem, belief set, or problem. and if don’t work then it is illogical or you could say “it doesn’t add up”.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:19 PM
I recognize your complete and absolute faith in your logic.
That’s pretty much about how I feel about my God.
And for what it’s worth my God is not now, or ever will be, called Allah.
I could stay and solve the great problems of the world and raise Allahpundit’s comment count but there is a glass of wine calling my name. I could just change my name so the wine won’t be calling me. Nah, that could never work.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 5:40 PM
Of course TheSitRep should have been commented.
TunaTalon on August 15, 2007 at 5:41 PM
Serb friend turned me on to this site
Serbianna
let me know whatcha think.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:46 PM
Thanks for your concern, but I am pretty sure you can’t do what my entire family of devout CofCers couldn’t do.
But don’t you worry, cuz I’ll fight along side the Christians to the death.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:53 PM
No, we were not discussing Nonfactor. We were not discussing Nonfactor belief’s in logic either.
We were discussing,
given Nonfactor’s worldview, can that worldview itself (as a worldview) both metaphysically and epistemologically account for the immaterial laws of logic?
My points were not directed personally against Nonfactor, or even Nonfactor’s belief in logic. My points were indeed directed at his worldview.
I want to be fair to all atheists.
There are atheists whose worldview does include a broad ontology of immaterial entities like the laws of logic, propositions, etc. These atheists are called pluralistic naturalists. Within Naturalism, there is a battle of ideas between the scientific naturalists (SN) and the pluralistic naturalists (PN). SN want to “reduce” everything to physics, and PN admits that these “reductionistic projects” cause tons and tons of more problems. But for theists to deny that PN exist is simply not true.
What theists, like myself, need to do, is to show that even given Pluralistic Naturalism, atheism self-destructs (just like SN). And with Nonfactor, I tried to politely show that even on pluralistic naturalism, atheism self-destructs on the epistemological level because there must be a Divine Mind to cause our human minds to causally interact with non-causal, immaterial, abstract entities like propositions, concepts, etc.
But it is not fair to say, “oh, you are an atheist, you must be a SN.” That is false because there are many atheists who are PN. Many atheists do admit the universal laws of logic as part of their ontology.
The problem is they cannot account for them.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 5:55 PM
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