Netherlands Catholic bishop: Let’s ease religious tensions — by calling God “Allah”
posted at 12:57 pm on August 15, 2007 by Allahpundit
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A Roman Catholic Bishop in the Netherlands has proposed people of all faiths refer to God as Allah to foster understanding, stoking an already heated debate on religious tolerance in a country with one million Muslims.
Bishop Tiny Muskens, from the southern diocese of Breda, told Dutch television on Monday that God did not mind what he was named and that in Indonesia, where Muskens spent eight years, priests used the word “Allah” while celebrating Mass.
“Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn’t we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? … What does God care what we call him? It is our problem.”…
A survey in the Netherlands’ biggest-selling newspaper De Telegraaf on Wednesday found 92 percent of the more than 4,000 people polled disagreed with the bishop’s view, which also drew ridicule.
“Sure. Lets call God Allah. Lets then call a church a mosque and pray five times a day. Ramadan sounds like fun,” Welmoet Koppenhol wrote in a letter to the newspaper…
A spokesman from the union of Moroccan mosques in Amsterdam said Muslims had not asked for such a gesture.
Here’s background describing the latest twist in interfaith relations in Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s ex-homeland. In his own craven, dopey way, the bishop might have been trying to heal the rift. While succeeding in opening it further.
Update: More from Catholic News. It may take 100 years, says Bishop Tiny, but eventually Christians will come around.
Not the first time he’s said this, either, apparently. Nor is it the first time he’s commented on Islam:
In the past, Bishop Muskens has offended many Muslims. In 2005 he said Islam was a religion without a future because it had too many violent aspects.
If it has no future then why would Christians be calling God “Allah” in the future per his prediction?
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This is a lot of hooplah over something that doesn’t exist.
Nonfactor on August 15, 2007 at 5:55 PM
Logic through human reason. It’s not a new concept.
Nonfactor on August 15, 2007 at 5:56 PM
I often lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.
But then again I am a dyslexic agnostic insomniac.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 5:58 PM
I am unclear as to what particular angle (political? or religious?, etc.), if any, you want me to comment on.
My brother-in-law is Serbian. He is a great guy. So I have had plenty of conversations with him about things pertaining to the “Old Country.” Your website link was the first time I have seen that though.
PRCaldude did write this recently on Lion of Judah-Journal. I found it very interesting.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 6:04 PM
I understand fully what you were responding to, but nowhere in the Old Testament did God say call me by these names and these names only. On top of that, none of those names were given to the Jewish people in English, and Jesus spoke Arabic.
In our general public yes, and this is mostly true in a post 9-11 world, but that doesn’t mean that all view the word this way.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 3:01 PM
I think I agree with you, and if I do, that’s part of the point I was making. But it’s been a long day, so I’m not entirely sure if I understand you here.
Fair enough. If you get time, I’ll read it.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 3:15 PM
Yes.
Yes, but the concept expressed by the word “Allah” in the Christian worldview is also different.
I agree completely with your feelings and do not imagine I would ever call God “Allah” either, but I disagree that it has to be this way. The word right now is practically synonymous with terrorism since it’s frequently been one of the last words of those who wish to kill us.
If things changed, if Arab Christians become more well known, or if moderate Muslims are ever able to shake out the radicals, I don’t think the word will continue to have those associations.
Esthier on August 15, 2007 at 6:07 PM
That’s OSU’s point. It isn’t up to him or your family to do the seeking or finding for you. And it isn’t up to them to call you.
However…I’ve got you back also.
baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 6:08 PM
you=your
baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 6:08 PM
The problem with this position is that you can’t account for them either. You say you can account for them, but saying something doesn’t make it true. “God did it” isn’t an “accountable” answer.
Nonfactor on August 15, 2007 at 6:12 PM
Based on your new comments, I think we are expressing the same idea. Sorry for “splinting hairs” earlier.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 6:12 PM
I suppose I was being a little to flip.
It’s too often worship of any God gets over analyzed into the general understanding of the question; Why.
The Priest or Mullah interpretations of God or Allah seems to me a blend of faith and extremism which, depending on which side of the question you are on, will depend on your longevity in this world.
In short, is this name of God all taken rather too seriously? I mean, it boils down to my god is greater than your god and he’s gonna kick your god’s ass.
I wonder sometimes, without faith, if atheism has a point.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 6:14 PM
My worldview, Christian theism, can indeed both metaphysically and epistemologically account for them because we have a non-natural solution for the problem of knowledge that inherently afflicts naturalism. God made mankind in his (non-natural) image. Jesus Christ, the Epistemological Logos of the Gospel of John and the Book of Hebrews, provides epistemological light to fallen mankind.
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 6:16 PM
No problem whatsoever. You expressed it better anyway.
Esthier on August 15, 2007 at 6:17 PM
Oh sure, you can “account” for something. So long as your definition of “accounting” means ‘without evidence and void of logic.’ Is that the definition you’re using? Because if so any cult or science fiction theory would hold up just as well.
Nonfactor on August 15, 2007 at 6:21 PM
I will not follow you in the direction that you are wanting
this discussion to go.
I have taken the time to carefully explain my position in the past. You already know what definition of logic I am using. And we both know it is not equivalent to “science fiction” or a “cult.”
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 6:29 PM
Yeah,, that’s a great idea. Maybe Christians should just start reading the Qur’an too,, in fact,, maybe we could all get along a lot better if Christians just came our and denounced Christianity,, spit on the cross and beheaded a few infidels, while we’re at it! We could all be friends then!
JellyToast on August 15, 2007 at 6:42 PM
Just doing my part to get the comments to 1000.
Oh, the idea of Catholics calling God “Allah” is sickeningly absurd.
PBoilermaker on August 15, 2007 at 6:45 PM
If god doesn’t care what he is called then I’ll stick to God or Heavenly Father. Allah is too restricted in my opinion, and allows only for those of Arabic descent or Muslim.
TFM
ThinkingForMyself on August 15, 2007 at 6:51 PM
allah is not the arabic name for “God”. They have no such concept because no such concept existed in pre-islamic arabic pagan culture, in which there were many gods of all kinds of disciplines. Allah is actually a proper name, like Steve or Joe. The muslims actually have 99 proper names for God, almost all of which start with al-, meaning “the something” and allah is the one they used most commonly. Less common names are such pagan-style labels as “The bestower” Al-Wahhab, or “the fashioner of forms” Al-Musawwir, and other pagan honor titles.
Muslims do not know who God is, what God is, much less know His name – witness the irrational behavior of the entire sect. And yet this priest wants the Christians in the Netherlands to mimic this nonsense?
jihadwatcher on August 15, 2007 at 6:52 PM
Oh really?
How about backing up that claim with some credible evidence, hmmm?
infidel4life on August 15, 2007 at 6:53 PM
Esthier said:
You might be thinking of Aramaic. Jesus also spoke Hebrew (old skool version) and Greek.
baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 6:59 PM
“Allah” was a pre-existing name for an Arabian deity.
Mohammad grafted his plagiarized Talmud/Torah/gnostic Bible bits together -and then pasted this old Arabian word over “Yaweh”- and got over 1.2 billion suckers to swallow the deception, so far.
profitsbeard on August 15, 2007 at 7:02 PM
You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me allah, or you can call me Yahweh, but ya doesn’t have to call me God.
TC on August 15, 2007 at 7:04 PM
I suggest we call the bishop “Krankzinnig“.
A fine Dutch word. The root of “crank” in English, perhaps.
But meaning “Madness” in Nederlands.
How does a follower of Christianity determine what God (”God” in Dutch, also) wants- or doesn’t want- to be called?
Wouldn’t, shouldn’t, they go to the Bible?
And not the damned Koran?
(Or is that the goddamned Koran?)
profitsbeard on August 15, 2007 at 7:17 PM
Okay, I’ll bite. Gotta do my part in getting this comment count higher.
There was a certain man who was of… some… importance to Judiasm and Christianity who had a problem of what name to use for the God of the Bible.
The difference between him and us is that according to the Bible, he actually asked God, and God answered him.
I like “Howard” though, as in “Our Father, who art in Heaven, Howard by Thy name…”
angryoldfatman on August 15, 2007 at 7:24 PM
“Howard be Thy name.” Sorry.
angryoldfatman on August 15, 2007 at 7:25 PM
heh. Why is it crazy to suggest that immigrants to a foreign country adapt to at least some of the culture of said country? Why should Europe, or the US, bend over backwards in the name of multiculturalism? It should be the people moving here who adapt.
BadgerHawk on August 15, 2007 at 7:27 PM
Jesus and I went to different schools together.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 7:28 PM
Okay, boys, I’m back.
Just was out performing some ritual sacrifices and what have you.
What’s the count?
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 8:45 PM
Actually I think we are expected to bend over forward…
infidel4life on August 15, 2007 at 8:48 PM
Okay! Now you’re talking absolute crap!
I have seen dozens of Jesus movies, and he
speaks perfectly fluent English with a slightly British accent.
He also has pale blue eyes.
Go sell your lies somewhere else! I ain’t buyin’
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 8:56 PM
Didn’t he do something something superstar?
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 9:00 PM
Just to clarify, I asked “what was wrong with the Catholic church” in regards to this advancing through the ranks into a position of leadership. How could a Bishop say that? I also wonder how a homosexual Episcopal Bishop can be ordained. Homosexuality and Christianity are mutually exclusive – what has happened to the hierarchy of the Church, in other words. I have my theories.
But no disrespect intended towards the Catholic church; indeed if this guy is disciplined I would approve. I don’t know about excommunication. I don’t think he should be in a position of rank if his theology is that flawed and his commitment to Christ is this compromised. I would say let him serve, but not teach.
As for all of the posters who have had fun with this thread, including the agnostics and the jokesters – imagine being executed by our government for joking about Jesus or for making corny comments about the name of Yahweh. Imagine worldwide riots killing innocent people caused by artwork critical of the Christian God. Ridiculous, right? Well, that’s one of the more obvious differences between God and Allah, and perhaps a good illustration as to why this is an insult to the body of Christ and to every christian matyr who has sacrificed for the faith that has contributed more to the betterment of the worls than any other.
Dork B. on August 15, 2007 at 9:02 PM
And I’ll clue you in on another little FACT, Sonny Jim!
Moses was the president of the NRA, so put that in pipe and smoke it.
And Ramses was in Westworld which was written by none other than Michael Crichton.
Who also wrote Jurassic Park.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 9:03 PM
Wait one, while I go check the original sacred source material for the Bible, Tora and Koran.
wikipedia
Yep, says so right here.
Kini, you are a beacon of erudition
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 9:19 PM
Heh.
baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 9:28 PM
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Are Dutch bishops allowed to toke Blonde Lebanese?
Or do they have to stick to SpaceCake?
It would explain things.
Two hits and it’s All…..ahhhhhhhh!
profitsbeard on August 15, 2007 at 10:27 PM
But, no one’s mentioned Victor
“Up from the grave, He arose a Victor…”
(Okay, that’s technically refering to Christ, but since He is God, it counts).
For the record though, I’m a Christian and other than the humorous aspect of all this, I’d rather call God – Father. Especially since He said we could.
It’s been an interesting read, sorry you’ve not gotten your 1000 posts yet, allah. (Though the night is young, perhaps you’ll get it and that elusive iPhone.)
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:27 PM
238
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 10:28 PM
How we doin on the count?
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 4:41 PM
Ya don’t say!
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 10:29 PM
kybowexar-
And forget not Gladly, The Cross-Eyed Bear.
profitsbeard on August 15, 2007 at 10:29 PM
Yep, atleast.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 10:29 PM
Thanks SitRep,
you’re so kind.
TheSitRep on August 15, 2007 at 10:30 PM
Hahahahaha…ha…I liked that….
ColtsFan on August 15, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Just trying to be obedient to Allah(Pundit).
Add comments, Infidels!
baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 10:35 PM
The SitRep-
You’re never alone with a schizophenic.
I think I see The Face of Mohammad in that piece of steak.
Right near the longitudinal fat streak.
Or is it merely marbling?
Call the Danish!
(Cartoonists, not the pastry.)
profitsbeard on August 15, 2007 at 10:36 PM
Profitsbeard, I had to read that one a couple times before I got it.
Sad….
But hilarious at the same time.
It’s probably on the good bishop’s play list. (laugh)
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:36 PM
So…. is there a time-limit or can allah claim a 1,000 posts if they come in before the new year?
(Hey I did my part, I sent the link to all 12,0000 of my closest friends, just like a good Netizen – along with all my other forwards.)
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:40 PM
kybowexar-
I think the bishop is probably more familiar with a bi-shop than a hymn.
TO The SitRep-
How’re we doing, numbers wise?
profitsbeard on August 15, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Say, as far as earthly timelines go, isn’t Islam the Johnny-come-lately of the five major religions?
If so, then shouldn’t it need the guidance of a more established peaceful religion, like er, say, Christianity?
After all, Christianity went through it’s violent phase.
Assimilation can help. Just throwing that out there.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 10:42 PM
Okay, that last part was an obnoxious lie – I sent the link to four people, but two of them are the sort who foward everything to all 12 thousand of their “closest friends and family”.
Sadly, I see almost every scam that hits the Net about thirty times before I can them all going to Snopes to see for themselves.
It’s tough to be snarky!
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:42 PM
Christianity, went through its violent phase, but Christ didn’t. Methinks the religion of peace is violent from the get go.
Therein lies just one of the enumerable differences between the two.
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:45 PM
It’s also tough to assimilate with a scimitar. Or at least unless you also capitulate.
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:46 PM
You know, you’re right! It’s in their rule, play book. That Quran thingy.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 10:47 PM
Correct kybowexar,
It’s hard to read when you don’t have a head…, anymore.
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 10:49 PM
Try not to be so technical. (laugh)
My brother (aside from being a master mechanic and machinist) always says the problem is either the dumaflatchy, the whatits, or the thingy.
The Bible points to a few times where God instructs from killing, but the killing does end. The religion of peace just keep right on killing or “converting”.
kybowexar on August 15, 2007 at 10:52 PM
Convert or receive your 72 virgins.
Strikes Jack Benny pose and says, “I’m thinking!”
Kini on August 15, 2007 at 11:44 PM
I been waiting for this story to pop up here.
This guy’s argument is that Indonesian Christians and Muslims use the same name for God, so why can’t we all.
I call BS.
I lived and prayed in Indonesia for three years with Christians there. They do sometimes use Allah for “God”, but far more frequently they(we) use “Tuhan” (Lord), Yesus, or another of God’s names (e.g. Father, Father in Heaven, etc.) Do Indonesian Christians sometimes use “Allah maha esa?” Yeah, but it was always more of a sop toward Muslims that were around, or in an effort to open the door by being inclusive and ecumenical. I think “Almighty God” is translated Allah Maha Esa in the Indo OT, but in pracitce it often feels Islamic to Indo Christians, in my experience, and they tend not to use it.
Furthermore, and this is my biggest point, Indonesian Christians and Muslims pronounce the word Allah differently, to differentiate whom they mean. Chritians say it more the way that we westerners do, while the Muslims there intonate as closely as they can to the Arabic pronunciation. To proclaim that they use the same word while ignoring the glaring difference in usage and pronunciation is incredibly disengenuous.
Everyone is aware of this, and I frequently had Muslims pointedly try to alter my pronunciation away from the Christian style. You feel the struggle over the way it’s pronounced when you enter into conversations there. Not the same word at all, and it doesn’t mean the same person, and everyone there knows it.
TexasDan on August 15, 2007 at 11:56 PM
Furthermore, he ought to come out with fun tidbits like how Muslims have tried to pry traditional Christian holidays, like the birth of Jesus, into the Muslim camp and have them formally named “birthday of the prophet Isa.”
Plus shutting down Churches all over the place. And jailing Christians if they talk about their faith with a Muslim. Or lead a bible school and some muslim kids sneak in the back door. and on and on.
Go on Bishop. It’s working so well to soothe tensions in Indonesia? get your head out of your rear.
TexasDan on August 16, 2007 at 12:00 AM
I’m not sure if there is a God or not, but whatever, or if ever, I will never ever call him Allah.
4shoes on August 16, 2007 at 12:09 AM
We say your paronoid and delusional if you think that about Protestants.
right2bright on August 16, 2007 at 12:36 AM
With so many thousands of comments already this may have been covered, but…in the name of diversity, could maybe the jihadists meet us halfway and start referring to Allah as “Big Guy” or “Hey You”?
Doug on August 16, 2007 at 12:47 AM
While we’re at it, let’s call pedophiles “overly affectionate loners“.
And murderers “unscheduled death enablers“.
Isn’t Allah short for AAllahbunchacrap?
profitsbeard on August 16, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Ummmmm
I think not.
Herikutsu on August 16, 2007 at 1:21 AM
How about my favorite? “Dude!” As in “Dude, what are you doing here?” Or “Dude, thanks!” (Yes, I’m a native Californian and God and I are familiar; I talk to Him a lot.)
baldilocks on August 16, 2007 at 2:20 AM
Ha ha Yeah There seems to be an evolutionary process for religions kinda like a life cycle.
Conception
Gestation
Birth
Maturation
bar mitzvah
adolescence
adulthood and so on.
And just think. In about another 1000 years there will be guys on TV like:
Al Jimmy Al Swaggert al mufti
Sheik Al Pat Roberts Al Tikrti
Great quotes to come:
If I don’t raise 3 billion dollars Allah will take me home.
News headline of the future:
Madrassa students settle sex abuse case.
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 6:52 AM
Major US study confirms, poorly endowed men desire virgins.
Cambridge University Scientist study concludes that men with smaller than average penises desire virgins for lovers. Like wise the study goes on to find that men with a condition known as micro penis desire 72 virgins and are willing to die for it.
Yeah I know Oniony but true.
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 7:02 AM
Hey guys, we are only at 267. If we are gonna get to 1000 we will need to have a SURGE.
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 9:34 AM
I’d do more to push this over the top, but these religion threads tire me out. Just not feeling it this week.
Krydor on August 16, 2007 at 10:42 AM
If
profitsbeard on August 16, 2007 at 11:17 AM
we argue over the names of God, the Hindus have everyone beat.
6 million and counting.
profitsbeard on August 16, 2007 at 11:19 AM
It doesn’t help that Allah didn’t move this thread over to “Top Picks”. You’d think that he’d be a little bit more enthused about this thread, given the topic (having Catholics worship him).
Rick on August 16, 2007 at 11:59 AM
You left out liberal Jewish Communist.
aengus on August 16, 2007 at 12:52 PM
Ok, Allah is a foreign word meaning God.
And we should pick a foreign language and use it’s words instead of the words in our language… gotcha.
Good idea, but why not Chinese? Isn’t Mandarin considerably more in use in the world; and of more value in trade/business (especially in the probable future) than an Arabic language?
So if we’ve decided that removing an English word in favor of a foreign one is good, why this language?
gekkobear on August 16, 2007 at 2:09 PM
Man, I am sitting here in Houston in my car stranded due to flooding. Allah works in mysteriuos ways. Anywho I’m wondering if I brought this fate upon me for my previous comments. If so I wonder what all the other people here did to share this hell I am in.
How we doin on the count?
Bb post
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 3:14 PM
It ain’t gonna happen. It was a nice try though.
Goodbye Allah
Kini on August 16, 2007 at 4:03 PM
Corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking. Just a moment.
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 7:23 PM
Corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking. Just a moment.
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 7:23 PM
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 7:23 PM
Corporate accounts payable, Nina speaking. Just a moment. .
TheSitRep on August 16, 2007 at 7:23 PM
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