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Sura 1

Sura 2, Part 1

Sura 2, Part 2

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Sura 2, Part 5

Sura 2, Part 6

Sura 3, Part 1

Sura 3, Part 2

Sura 3, Part 3

To gain a deeper understanding of how Muslims view themselves in the con…

It is referring to the gain the Christians received by rejecting Muhammad — such as the Najran delegation’s alleged rejection of Muhammad because of the goods and money they received from the Byzantines, which I discussed a couple of weeks ago.

Robert Spencer on August 12, 2007 at 5:25 PM

I missed last week, but now I’m caught up.

Reading some other sources on the net it looks like parts of the Qu’ran are borrowed from various apocrophia (clay igeons coming to life and Jesus talking in the crib). I’m guessing Mohammed got torqued when he found out he had been sold some bad scripture.

Guillaume’s Ibn Ishaq is excellent.

Lings was a 20th century Englishman who became a Muslim. His biography is a bit apologetic and whitewashed, but not as much as, say, those by Karen Armstrong.

I share your sentiments–and the “extremist” Christians (not the nutjobs, mind you) are willing to suffer what the south koreans in Afghanistan are going through because they follow a Jesus who was willing to suffer.

On another point, and perhaps OT: there are a lot of parallels between Mohammed and Joseph Smith, including the violence, treatment of women, etc. The observations you have made about the apple not falling far from the tree in terms of what a given religion breeds are the source of unease in myself at least, and I imagine others, when it comes to having a Mormon as a national leader.

Simply put, there is one helluva a big difference between Christ and Mohammad. A vast difference. A very, very obvious difference. Not just between the Christian messiah and Mohammad, but between Mohammad and the major figures of every other major religion, from Moses to Buddha.

I don’t even need to spell it out, do I?

And now I’m starting to wonder – is that difference the fundamental factor that has led to 21st century Islamo-fascism?

Or asked another way – if Christ had led armies in slaughter instead of healing the blind and submitting to crucifixion (asked historically not theologically) … would extremist Christians be flying planes into buildings?

I just don’t think it every really hit me until today. Mohammad is pretty unusual for a messianic figure (if that label can even be applied). He seemed to really enjoy blood.

It explains a lot.

Maybe the Koran needs its own New Testament.

Mr. Spencer, if the battles and other important historical narrative context aren’t included in the Qur’an, what are the Muslim sources? Ibn Ishaq? Sections of the hadith collections?

Yes, Ibn Ishaq is the best and earliest source for a continuous historical narrative, complete with copious citations of the Qur’an in the context of when each verse or section was revealed. The hadith give abundant material on individual battles and various other historical events, but not in a continuous narrative.

Eid ul-Adha is a reenactment of Abraham’s sacrifice of a ram in place of his son (whether Ishmael or Isaac, depending on which tradition you’re dealing with).

There is no theology of atonement or redemption in Islam. Allah is merciful, however, and one can hope that one’s good deeds outweigh one’s bad deeds.

Question: Is the writing style of the Koran consistent with other ancient styles? Are most ancient non-biblical texts as jumbled as the Koran?

There is a huge variety of material. The Qur’an shares some similarities with pre-Islamic Arabic poetry, but is singular in numerous ways.

Verses 156-158 and 160 appear (to me, at least) as explicitly Norse, which itself has roots in Persian mythologies.

Explicitly Norse? I’m sorry, but I don’t see any explicit avowal of a Norse influence. I wouldn’t doubt that there is a Persian influence, as there is ample Persian influence all over the Qur’an, but I would doubt that Norse mythology as such would have been available in 7th century Arabia.

How extensively does Islam borrow from the various ancient (polytheist) mythologies of the Middle East?

Quite extensively. See “Sources of the Qur’an” by William St. Clair Tisdall, which you’ll find here.

Is anything to be gleaned by examining such roots?

Yes, a great deal. Ibn Warraq has done some important work in this area. Others have also. Illuminating the origins of Qur’anic material can go a long way toward providing a context for its reevaluation by honest Islamic reformers.

Also, you write, “Verses 180-200 excoriate the unbelievers and promise rewards to the believers.” Can this indicate that only Allah can judge a person’s worthiness? It seems to me that jihad can only be a verdict that is not, and cannot be one’s decision.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand the question, or the statement following the question.

women fleeing lifting up their clothes revealing their leg-bangles and their legs,” they began to cry out, “The booty! O people, the booty!”

The origin of the booty call?

v. 161 was revealed “in connection with a red robe that was missing from the spoils of war of Badr. Some people said that the Messenger of Allah might have taken it.” But this verse exonerated Muhammad

Wow. that’s too hilarious. Mo pinches a red robe from the spoils, then has a convenient revelation explaining he’s not to blame.

Re: asking for Allah’s forgiveness: I have often asked and never had a muslim be able to explain any sort of islamic theology for forgiveness. If you are able to highlight relevant passages as we get to them, I’d appreciate it, Robert. They do seem to associate the slaughter of animals on Idul Adha (I only know the Indonesian terms, but they are ususally phoneticised Arabic) with forgiveness of sin, but that’s about it.

What is this referring to by a miserable gain purchased? Clearly it is not the rejection of Christ as savior, because Mohammed is guilty of the same.

No, clearly it isn’t, because Islam does not regard Christ as savior. It is referring to the gain the Christians received by rejecting Muhammad — such as the Najran delegation’s alleged rejection of Muhammad because of the goods and money they received from the Byzantines, which I discussed a couple of weeks ago.

Reckless abandon, yes. Bloodthirsty bravado, yes. Morbid hubris, yes.

Courage? Nah.

Point taken. But nonetheless, one man’s mortal hubris is another man’s courage — which is only a statement about perceptions, not a declaration of moral relativism.

Has such an ultimatum been given to Allah since?

I’m not sure, but I would doubt it. Who would be in a position to give him such an ultimatum once Islam had spread — as it did so quickly after Muhammad’s death — to the far corners of the globe?

If victory or defeat is the sole decision of Allah…by what standards is Allah supposed to be using? I mean, exactly what reason would Allah have to will victory or defeat?

His will is beyond our fathoming.

What a jumble. I read the bible through yearly (either OT or NT) so I’m quite familiar with the writings collected in it. By comparison the Koran is such a stream of consciousness.

Question: Is the writing style of the Koran consistent with other ancient styles? Are most ancient non-biblical texts as jumbled as the Koran?

Verses 156-158 and 160 appear (to me, at least) as explicitly Norse, which itself has roots in Persian mythologies. How extensively does Islam borrow from the various ancient (polytheist) mythologies of the Middle East? Is anything to be gleaned by examining such roots?

Also, you write, “Verses 180-200 excoriate the unbelievers and promise rewards to the believers.” Can this indicate that only Allah can judge a person’s worthiness? It seems to me that jihad can only be a verdict that is not, and cannot be one’s decision.