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I was cheerleading overthrow of Saddam and the freedom of the IRaqi people.

So easy to do when it’s not your life you’re gambling with, huh?

You seem too want to cheerlead for Saddam to stay in power and keep being a threat.

William Amos on August 12, 2007 at 4:14 PM

Lets play Guess the Fallacy! Hint: more than one answer is acceptable.

I know this isn’t exactly a current event, but this was a chunk of logic that had always perplexed me.  Consider this another one of my open discussion threads, where this time I revisit the “Why the heck did we invade Iraq, again?” …

William Amos on August 12, 2007 at 2:09 AM
When and where did I say that? I simply stated that you were cheerleading people to death to “set and example.”

I was cheerleading overthrow of Saddam and the freedom of the IRaqi people. You seem too want to cheerlead for Saddam to stay in power and keep being a threat.

Read Bryan’s post on illusory 9/11 unity

.

Thanks for the heads up.

Accurate.

The perennial kneejerk anti-American anarchist part of the disunity is to be expected, but, although I supported hitting harder than was done by GWB and his team on 9/12, I also was enraged that such a ridiculous Jihad plan as boxcutters and video-trained “pilots” could pull off this mass-murder with NO sky marshalls anywhere in sight.

The first thing I said to a guy, on 9/11, as we stood in line at a gas station’s convenience store, watching the Twin Towers burn on their tv that morning, was: “Where the hell were the sky marshalls?”

The guy shrugged.

(There were 12 of them in the entire country, and they were all on international flights. The airlines and the U.S. government had abandoned us to terrorists, and were criminally negligent and criminally derect in their Constitutional duties.)

Even loathing their incompetence, I still had to support our government’s reaction.

I only wish it had been more serious.

William Amos on August 12, 2007 at 2:09 AM

When and where did I say that? I simply stated that you were cheerleading people to death to “set and example.”

Seixon on August 12, 2007 at 12:20 PM

Agreed completely. One country at a time. Wait Saddam out. And then if we need to–take him or his sons out. It’s obvious the focus was taken off of Afghanistan soon after we realized we wouldn’t be getting Osama as quickly as predicted.

jihadwatcher

you should prolly be posting that stuff on your Kos Home page… cuz it’s just Nutz…

do you even understand the capabilities of the CIA? they can kill anyone… anywhere… anytime… if the Bush Family truly wanted Saddam dead he would have been dead years ago… do you know who 41 is? HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE CIA! this guys knows all the secrets… he doesn’t need his son to do his dirty work and certainly would never wage an entire war to do something as simple as kill 1 man…

you sir, are straight out of the funny papers…

I wonder with your name if you are watching or rooting?

It made no sense to go further on Saddam back then, precisely because of these two facts. The entire idea of the USG was to weaken Saddam over time, and then overthrow him.

I believe that the Bush administration caved, to an extent, to the tsunami of anti-American “world opinion” that swept the globe at the beginning of 2003, causing us to fight the front in Iraq as “nicely” as we possibly could, instead of using the full extent of our power to attain victory. We’re still doing it, and paying the price.

Halley on August 12, 2007 at 3:49 AM

Agreed.

Im sure you’d rather have 9/11 as an example for our enemies ?

William Amos on August 11, 2007 at 10:36 PM
What the fuck?

Nonfactor on August 11, 2007 at 10:42 PM

In other words you’d rather do nothing because it might upset our enemies. And let 9/11 stand and take the losses ?

Remember early on when Generals Scales and Mckinnerney (iirc) came out and said on Fox they knew Saddam’s WMDs were transfered to Syria and hidden in the Bakar Valley?

I don’t recall that, but I might have just missed it. I’m gonna do some googling on that tomorrow and see if I can dig up some info.

it also explains why we backed off the Syrians so quickly even though we know they are funneling fighters and arms into Iraq. Otherwise, why not rattle their cage hard to get them to stop?

I agree.

Spirit of 1776 on August 12, 2007 at 12:28 AM

One other data point. Remember early on when Generals Scales and Mckinnerney (iirc) came out and said on Fox they knew Saddam’s WMDs were transfered to Syria and hidden in the Bakar Valley? Then all of a sudden (it seemed) they stopped talking about it at all.

it also explains why we backed off the Syrians so quickly even though we know they are funneling fighters and arms into Iraq. Otherwise, why not rattle their cage hard to get them to stop?

profitsbeard on August 12, 2007 at 12:19 AM

You need to read Bryan’s post about this illusionary 9/11 unity.

Exactly. Why not simply destroy the stuff and document it and then get the sanctions lifted? I mean who would be stupid enough to destroy it and not tell anyone or document it?

Remember early on, the Russian convoy that was attacked by us from the air? The one headed for Syria? Remember the Russians claiming it what their diplomatic staff?

I do remember that, yes.

Sure, why not if he was going to go that way. Honestly, I just don’t see him destroying it, though, because I don’t think he ever thought we were going to do anything about it. And oil for food was a nice little bribe buffer.

I feel like to Oracle from the Matrix at times…I see the darkness spreading… I hope I am wrong. I really do but it’s the only scenario that makes any sense to me right now…

Heh. I don’t usually comment too much on the ‘war’ threads – I don’t presume to know the answers, because I can’t make the pieces fit – & what I’m left with is questions about what seems to be an ever-expanding hornet’s nest.

Because we then could have cleaned the Jihad House of all of its nest of murderous lunatics, from Tehran to Islamabad, Baghdad to Jakarta.

But striking without unity in the West, we failed to crush the Jihad, and divided the West (and America even more).

Better to be hit brutally then righteously destroy the enemy honestly, than to half-hit a part of the enemy and neither win against the Islamodascist attacker nor galvanize your people and your allies into joining the battle.

As it is, we were left open to the predictable anarcho-leftist criticisms of being “a bully“, of “starting a war of choice“, of engaging in “an un-American pre-emptive war“, and of “lying about the reasons for going to war” (even though the Democrats gave those same reasons when they were in power), ad nauseam.

9/11 did not unite the country for several reasons.

One being that a lot of people thought that the government (R and D) had betrayed them by not having the brains to stop such an act (firing all but 12 sky marshalls, and all of them being on international flights only, and the Air Force CATASTROPHICALLY NAIVELY told to “stand down” after the Cold War was “won”, guaranteed NO security in the air).

And then Osama NOT being tracked down and killed, whatever the hell it took, and wherever the hell he ran to.

The unity was Bush’s to lose.

And he did an amazing job of it.

Cheney, like Rumsfeld, is good at dismissive phrases, but not so bright at convincing the public to back this fight.

If your don’t inspire the public, you lose.

RightWinged on August 12, 2007 at 12:09 AM

That’s right out of the liberal playbook

So is much of what got posted here today. Start at the top…

But I just don’t think the collective intelligence agencies of the world would be that far off.

Exactly. Why not simply destroy the stuff and document it and then get the sanctions lifted? I mean who would be stupid enough to destroy it and not tell anyone or document it?

Years ago I read every line of the last official UN inspector report (the one submitted when Clinton was in). Iraq had tons of stuff that had been tagged but never destroyed when Saddam kicked them out iirc. We are supposed to believe he destroyed it after he threw them out and didn’t even document it?

Remember early on, the Russian convoy that was attacked by us from the air? The one headed for Syria? Remember the Russians claiming it what their diplomatic staff?

I feel like to Oracle from the Matrix at times…I see the darkness spreading… I hope I am wrong. I really do but it’s the only scenario that makes any sense to me right now…

But I do have to respond to this specific comment

So, George created a reason to get Saddam. He tied him to 9/11 in some convoluted way and the rest is history.

jihadwatcher on August 11, 2007 at 11:23 PM

That’s right out of the liberal playbook. Bush didn’t “tie him to 9/11″ and anyone who thinks he did is lying or incredibly dumb. That has been a consistent liberal talking point “Bush tried to tie Saddam to 9/11, but he had nothing to do with it!”… This is just like Joe Wilson saying “Saddam never bought yellow-cake!”. No, he “SOUGHT TO BUY” it, which is all Bush said. But media spin has lead to a large portion of the country believing that Bush lied based on a document he knew was forged, which had nothing to do with his comments. Likewise, Bush never claimed Saddam was “tied” to 9/11, he made the case very clearly and that wasn’t it.

Anyway, your opinion that Cheney just “went along” with the boss in invading Iraq is one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard. I’m not like the left who says that he is the true current president, but he’s certainly played a major role in this thing.

Look, Bush may be a b**ch on immigration, but for you to assert that this war is about a petty family beef is outrageous. Had that been the case, it could certainly have been handled in many other ways.

Saddam having had an empty plate would be great. But I just don’t think the collective intelligence agencies of the world would be that far off.

That really does dice up the situation over there. There has been a lot of movement with Syria, both into Lebanon and pressuring Israel. That maybe of the root causes. I think your assessment maybe more correct then I’d like it to be.

Spirit of 1776 on August 11, 2007 at 11:43 PM

I think they have a good idea what Syria got and are afraid they’ll use them. And, if they do, you know Israel might unleash the atom and then… I hope I am wrong. I hope those reports are wrong. I hope Saddam really didn’t have anything…

TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 11:26 PM

That’s an interesting theory, might have some legs to it. If that were the case, I would have hoped that they would have done some anyway, but I can see the reason to accept the status quo for the reasons you implied.

That makes the current situation regard the push for Israel to cede Golan Heights back to Syria even more convoluted. I’ll be interested in what the US response/diplomatic pressure plays out to be there. That might have encouraged Assad to press the issue more.