Video: Cheney on Iraq, 1994 edition
posted at 12:20 pm on August 11, 2007 by Allahpundit
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I’m going to try one more time with you. Let’s see if I can catch your eye this time and you seems to be cherry picking to whom you reply.
I don’t know.
Not really.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 3:19 PM
Exactly!
Weight of Glory on August 11, 2007 at 3:21 PM
Michael, emotion has it’s benefits in situations like this.
You were fine.
csdeven on August 11, 2007 at 3:22 PM
This is exactly what you stated, John:
Calling post-invasion Iraq a poorly planned goat screw is a bit ridiculous. It only seems poorly planned in hindsight, now that we have seen the results of those plans. There were pros and cons to every plan that was implemented post-invasion. Obviously, NOW, we can see that that cons outweighed the pros and can call things “wrong, wrong, wrong wrong”.
We could probably go case by case on all the decisions made for the post-war invasion and find good things and bad things about all of them, including having a 500,000+ occupation force and keeping the Iraqi Army/Police together. There were drawbacks that we never saw from those strategies, because we did not implement them.
So for people to act like geniuses now saying things were “obvious” is disingenuous.
Things were going well in Iraq at many points in time from 2003 to 2006. Then big scandals happened (Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Mosque Bombing) which were touted by the media and the Democrats which hampered our efforts. Not to mention the propaganda war which has hampered our unity here and our support in Iraq. In addition to how the propaganda has hurt our efforts to gain the trust of the locals until recently.
Basically, I see this Cheney video equivalent to the Left bringing up President Bush’s “I am against nation-building” position. Things change. The cost of not acting outweighed the risk of acting. Back in 1991, that was not the case.
Michael in MI on August 11, 2007 at 3:25 PM
Right. You have no clue yet you have no problem criticizing them as if they are idiots.
A very famous professor taught me many years ago to always ask myself an important question when analyzing situations, “why did they do it? Are they stupid?” When you try to answer that question honestly you’ll often find they weren’t.
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 3:28 PM
Dude, what?
Yah, they didn’t help. I’d say not having enough troops, trying to fit Rummy’s square transformation policy into Iraq’s round hole, and not employing a dedicated COIN strategy hurt us more.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 3:29 PM
Are you claiming that the Military leadership did not participate in developing the strategy? Are you claiming they signed off on a strategy they did not agree with? Are you claiming the executed a plan they had no faith in? Are you claiming Bush lied when he repeated stated he polled the commanders individually and asked each if they were comfortable with the plan and had everything the needed to carry it out?
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 3:34 PM
Not me. Uncanny how he lists almost all the problems being faced today.
aengus on August 11, 2007 at 3:34 PM
Are you referring to GEN Petraeus’ COIN strategy that he only finished in 2006? We were supposed to implement that in May 2003?
Also, I would like to know how this war effort could have been so much better. We are but 4+ years into a historical war effort in the heart of 7th Century-mentality, completely ignorant, brainwashed and propagandized Middle East.. yet we have lost an amazingly low amount of troops and are making significant progress. In a little over 4 years time!
Maybe everyone is not looking at this in terms of The Long War, as many have noted (most notably Greyhawk at Mudville Gazette). It seems to me that some people think this war effort should have been over by now or something, with absolutely no mistakes or strategies that did not pan out, etc. Hell, the United States wasn’t formed in 4 freaking years and we had the Founding Fathers. I really don’t understand this impatience and 20/20 criticism.
Also, as I noted, having more troops causes OTHER problems. The only reason we did not see those problems is because we did not implement that strategy. You make it seem like had we just fired SECDEF Rumsfeld and had a 500,000+ occupation force from May 2003-present, things would have been fine. Not true and you know it. Other problems would have surfaced and we would be sitting here saying “why didn’t those idiots do it this other way”.
Michael in MI on August 11, 2007 at 3:38 PM
So you knock John for not knowing how everything would have shaken out, then blithely assert that you know how things would have shaken out. How do you know things wouldn’t have been much better now with a bigger force? No one’s demanding perfection, just a scenario in which 60+% of the country isn’t in favor of pulling out and abandoning the country to its fate.
Here’s the bottom line: Shinseki and others warned them they didn’t have enough troops for an occupation force. Cheney et al. seemed to dismiss the prospect of an insurgency out of hand: hence, “last throes,” “a few dead-enders,” etc. Given that we are where we are, you go ahead and explain why 500,000 troops would have created a worse scenario than we have now. Be sure to explain how having lots of extra troops on the borders to intercept incoming suicide bombers would actually be a bad thing.
Allahpundit on August 11, 2007 at 3:47 PM
Uh…
Are you wearing pink underwear right now? Do you prefer baths or showers? Do you think Tay Zonday is more talented than William Hung? Who is your favorite Power Ranger?
See! I can ask completely weird, dumb, and irrelevant questions too!
I’m in the military dude. We’re changing our strategy because the first one didn’t work. Because it was universally agreed that General Sanchez was the wrong man for the job. Because we know that we went in with too light of a force. Because we recognize that transformation was the right plan for Afghanistan, wrong plan for Iraq. Because we didn’t plan for a counterinsurgency. Because we’re pros and we can acknowledge the fact that we made mistakes that need to be fixed without it having any political slant.
Oh and this…
That’s not even a serious comment. Unless your military expertise is so profound and so stunning that you can tell me precisely what would have happened.
Me? I don’t read tea-leaves.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 3:48 PM
I haven’t seen this video before, but it makes me wonder about Bremer’s role in screwing things up.
I mean, it looks like Bremer did a bunch of things that maybe Cheney hadn’t planned on.
Why doesn’t anyone ever find out why Bremer did what he did, or whether or not Bremer was breaking the plans that were already established? And what the hell was with that medal?
It’s possible that Cheney was quite prescient as to what would happen, but it’s also possible Rumsfeld convinced the President that Cheney was wrong.
We’re working on so much complete information.
This is quite surprising though! It makes figuring out what happened in the beginning even more difficult.
apollyonbob on August 11, 2007 at 3:49 PM
What in Mosul? That was the one place where we did succeed because we did have the right strategy. The rest of Iraq? Not so much.
That’s why my man Petraeus got the job back in December.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 3:50 PM
Exactly. Transformation was supposed to be lighter force, with technology empowering one soldier to do the job of ten. That was Rumsfeld’s vision, and it worked phenomenally in Afghanistan. But you can’t win hearts and minds with heartless and mindless gagdets, and that’s why Transformation has failed in Iraq.
We went in too light, that’s a fact.
Unless you think that we’re surging troops into theater because we have too many there already…
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 3:54 PM
Sad isn’t it? I get this all the time and especially around voting time as I’m very outspoken about not voting for Republicans or Democrats. So around the time to vote I’m always called a Democrat shill on sites like these.
But hey, if being ripped off and lied to is your thing, keep voting for these same two parties by all means.
Benaiah on August 11, 2007 at 3:55 PM
AP. It seems that with the success we have been gaining with the current strategy, troop levels in the beginning may not have been too off the mark; we may have just been using the numbers incorrectly. In other words, using the current troop levels to enter problem areas and then remain in those areas, seems to be working. Honestly I don’t know what the effect would have been if it were closer to 500,000, but what I do know is this: if you were to go back and dramatically increase the amount, other conditions would most certainly have changed; positive ground gained may very well have been lost. In other words when reevaluating, you can’t assume you could have changed only one variable to deal with the problems and at the same time assume that all the positive ground would not have changed as a result of the new variable.
Weight of Glory on August 11, 2007 at 3:57 PM
Or it may have been gained. There might at last have been enough security to protect reconstruction projects, which would have employed Iraqis; the Army Corps of Engineers might have had enough breathing space to upgrade the power grid, providing more air conditioning and raising the quality of life to give the new government some political capital; patrols would have certainly intercepted more suicide bombers, reducing sectarian reprisals. Etc etc etc.
Allahpundit on August 11, 2007 at 4:01 PM
Is it that much of a stretch to think Saddam had his hands in Terrorism against the US??? the 93 WTC attack was definitely linked to him and it was ‘payback’ for Kuwait.
http://husseinandterror.com
There’s also a pretty good chance Ok. City had his hands on it, I’ve heard several terrorism analyst say that and of course Jayna Davis has a book on it
http://jaynadavis.com
bottom line is with the articles of war at play, there is no telling what is classified that they know and we may not find out about for decades(see Venona Decrypts for Cold War example, clearing Sen. McCarthy). Also the obvious strategic implications of having our military based and surrounding both Iran and Syria on both sides.
jp on August 11, 2007 at 4:09 PM
All reasonable assumptions. Really AP you have a Newt post, a terrorism post, a Cheney post, and a UFO post; I can’t freakin’ keep up. Please, slow down…the PGA tourny is on!
Weight of Glory on August 11, 2007 at 4:09 PM
Again alot of hindsight here. If someone in 2003 could have told me that Gitmo and Abu Girahb would occur and change public opinion around the world to a more negative stance then I think you’d have an effective argument.
The entirety of what happened has to be veiwed. The protest marches of the anti war, Cindy Sheehan, The death of Tillman all had have a bearing on this war. This stories all emboldened Islamic to believe the world agrees with them. The reason we castigate someone like Murtha isnt because he is wrong to want to check for misdeeds by US soldiers but rather for the fact that his grandstanding can be used by the enemy to make the war easier for them.
We have forgotten since the time of WWII that propaganda is as much a weapon of war as any other. And when our own side builds weapons of propaganda we give the enemy an advantage.
William Amos on August 11, 2007 at 4:11 PM
Traffic is weak lately. I’ve got to do what I can to boost it.
Allahpundit on August 11, 2007 at 4:11 PM
Michael in MI on August 11, 2007 at 3:38 PM
Stop being a tool! I’m sick to death of this “dont you dare question Rummy and co.” attitude. We don’t need to critize their post-war plan in hindsight, because guess what, there was no plan. I was with the 1st Armored Division in 2003 to 2004. Before going to Iraq we just did the same old Cold War training BS. Fighting the soviet hordes and that stupid “prepare to fight the last war” mentality our military has been stuck on since World War II. Everything was made up as we went along once in Iraq, everything. So if there was some grand plan, most of the military sure as hell didn’t know it.
matthewbit07 on August 11, 2007 at 4:12 PM
I haven’t read “Fiasco” or “Cobra II” yet but my understanding is that that’s the main thrust of both.
Allahpundit on August 11, 2007 at 4:14 PM
Summer slump. Happens to everyone. Even ridiculously enormous blogs like yours.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 4:15 PM
The great tragedy of Fiasco is that Ricks chose a polarizing title that kept the true believers away.
I found it to be an even, logical, and professional analysis of the occupation. His research and conclusions came from the American military, not diarists on the Daily Kos.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 4:18 PM
There is more than one kind of true believer.
William Amos on August 11, 2007 at 4:20 PM
Okay….
what does that have to do with anything?
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 4:23 PM
The point being that nothing is to be automatically assumed. yuou keep saying that there was poor post war planning. I simply want to remind that we know far more about the situation now then we did before. Its easy to second guess the past. But its far harder to predict the future.
So while you may be right that the planning was wrong it doesnt follow that means it was the wrong way to do things. We did get rid of saddam and in record time. We just never figured on the insurgency and I think its unfair to assume that anyone would have predicted what was to follow.
William Amos on August 11, 2007 at 4:33 PM
Okay. It is not about assigning blame. It’s about understanding mistakes so that we can adjust, adapt, and win.
Everyone keeps saying “yeah but you have the benefit of hindsight.”
I keep saying “so what!?”
This isn’t about being right or being wrong. It’s about winning the war. Step one is to recognize why we’re losing it.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Or “were losing it,” I should say.
Some incredible things are happening over there, now that we’ve shifted gears.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 4:53 PM
We did get rid of saddam and in record time. We just never figured on the insurgency and I think its unfair to assume that anyone would have predicted what was to follow.
William Amos on August 11, 2007 at 4:33 PM
Just a personal opinion here, but I think that fast drive to Baghdad might be a large part of why we are where we are today in Iraq. Anyways, as for the insurgency, I don’t buy that no one thought that would happen. Anyone with an elementary understanding of Arab and Islamic culture/history could see something like that coming. Think Britain in the early twentieth century and Russia in the 1980s for just two examples.
matthewbit07 on August 11, 2007 at 5:13 PM
I’d be careful treating OIF and the occupation as the same conflict. They’re really two different wars.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 5:45 PM
Don’t make me go to Drudge to stay updated on the news in the last 24 hrs.
Drudge is old style blogging. Still informative, but old.
Mcguyver on August 11, 2007 at 5:53 PM
Absolutely, but they are linked together. Some of the problems we have seen during the occupation phase do have roots in the original ground war. I would argue that the insurgency is one such problem.
matthewbit07 on August 11, 2007 at 5:55 PM
Yeah, I agree with that.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 5:56 PM
That’s all you and AP have done this entire thread. Others, like me, are trying to point out that there were elements of the plan that were bleeped up in execution, like the 4th coming in from Turkey and the IA being keep together and used for security that had they happened we might be looking at a different Iraq today. I realize you don’t like to be challenged given you’re currently in the military. I guess those of us who served decades ago should not question your superior knowledge….
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 5:58 PM
By the way, digging up old news has nothing to do with winning the war today. Nothing. And that’s what this post it about, old news that anybody who runs a political blog should have known about and dealt with a long time ago. This whole thread was started to criticize and place blame not talk about the best way forward so spare us the lecture.
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 6:02 PM
All plans are bleeped up in execution.
So we might be looking at a different Iraq today, but we’re not. There still weren’t enough troops, the footprint was still too small, we still appointed the wrong leadership in General Sanchez, and we still failed to implement an effective COIN strategy.
Deal with what-ifs all you want, if it makes you happy. I’d prefer to deal with the actual situation.
John from OPFOR on August 11, 2007 at 6:18 PM
Ya, nothing political about digging up a 1994 interview which has been shown many times in one form or another since 2003
I haven’t seen that video, But I remember the interview of Cheney arguing this point. It was all over the news at the time.
So in that sense it’s old news (or Snark).
Damn it, AP Don’t make me go to Drudge and contribute to his over 10 million hits a day!!
I want one site to get all my news of the day and interact/comment with.
It’s just really very simple…. have a link where the news headlines you highlighted of the last 24 hrs (or even 48 hrs.) are available to me if I so choose.
Mcguyver on August 11, 2007 at 6:18 PM
TheBigOldDog,
Its good to vent every once-in-awhile. I spent thirteen months over there in 2003/2004. I get very frustrated with the way the war has been managed. The main focus should be on winning the war and the best way forward, but like that recent CNN poll shows, I also highly doubt we will do what it takes to win. We seem committed to a squishy half-heart attempt in Iraq.
matthewbit07 on August 11, 2007 at 6:19 PM
No plan survives contact – Rommel. Ya, I’ve actually heard that one 25 years ago, Imagine?
Yes, it worked out badly. That speaks more to the ability to adjust to conditions than it does to initial planning, which is one of my points. Going back to 1994 and rehashing the same arguments that have been going on for years does nothing to win the war today. All it does is give the opponents nails to hang their “pull out now” hats on and make the fence sitters go weak kneed.
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 6:34 PM
Where was this discussion before we took down Sadaam’s government this time? Good grief!
sabbott on August 11, 2007 at 7:37 PM
Chaney’s particular grasp of the situation does not necessarily translate:
a.) to anyone listening to him
b.) to anyone acting upon his advice
c.) that he’s speaking for himself
cadetwithchips2 on August 11, 2007 at 8:09 PM
Ok the community (and the page count) is thoroughly stirred up.
Cheney was refusing to dump on our Islamic allies for not deposing Saddam. So he lied a little about not trusting our Muslim allies to back us up while deposing a Muslim ruler. Is that a good reason to dump on General Petraeus? That’s where this thread is leading.
The country has pretty much connected errors in the past as reasons to pull our now. So Cheney was
lyingbeing diplomatic in 1994, the country still needs to defeat AQ in Iraq.TunaTalon on August 11, 2007 at 8:40 PM
LOL
Pathetic. I guess it’s all well and good to cheerlead people to death so long as you make an example to your enemies.
Nonfactor on August 11, 2007 at 8:42 PM
Gosh, Spirit, I’m sorry it has taken me this long to respond; I really didn’t see your post at 1:14. Yeah, I know. I think it was crazy that the Admin. didn’t make more of a case. Really, there have been so many cards I would have expected Bush to have played that he simply didn’t. Hope youre still out there. If I catch you on another post I will answer you there. Again sorry.
Weight of Glory on August 11, 2007 at 9:07 PM
it’s called common sense and intelligence… and Dick has both in spades…
Cheney in 08
Kaptain Amerika on August 11, 2007 at 9:12 PM
This will help you understand why.
Those missing WMD, again
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 9:17 PM
You too Spirit. Read that at Melanie Phillips when you get a chance.
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 9:18 PM
thanks for the link. I’m checking it out
Weight of Glory on August 11, 2007 at 9:24 PM
Alright I’m way late to this debate, but I’ve got to throw in my two cents…. First, I think this was a dumb post, because it only looks like it’s fracturing us, and to weaker minded conservatives who may not be that in to all of this, might think this is the new shift, to join the Bush lied, etc. etc. crowd, and turn on the war.
First of all, I think the only thing “new” here is the video, no?
Secondly, here’s the deal, as many others mentioned a post 9/11 world changed everything. Secondly, we tried to build a coalition, and if anyone thinks we’d have EVER gotten the French, the Russians, etc. on board, then they’re either lying or crazy. Nothing we could do would have gotten these people on our team, NOTHING!
So resolution after resolution were passed and ignored, and everyone’s intelligence showed the WMDs were there and Bush (correctly) saw the need to act. How could he sit on his ass, after freakin’ 9/11, knowing that the Democrats had been insisting Saddam had WMDs for 13 years, after the Democrats had argued he was trying to get nukes, etc. etc. etc. Can you imagine if we were attacked again on Bush’s watch, by terrorists using Saddam’s WMDs? (I think you recall the recovered tapes ABC got hold of, in which Saddam vaguely talked about an attack on our soil, I think he may have even specified DC, and saying something to the effect of “it wouldn’t even have to be us who did it”). He was pissed, and knew what he had to do.
So again, he went to the UN and got nothing but bulls**t, which is all the UN is good for. Upon recognizing what was going on, he did what he had to do. Could planning have been better? Of course, hindsight is always 20/20. Would I have bombed a little less mercifully? Absolutely. But I maintain the chaos has only grown as terrorists and outside elements recognized the rallying cry it would be if they could defeat the great Satan, and the Dems have increasingly promised to surrender to them. Remember, the surrender movement began 6 months in to a war that was going arguably swimmingly, when the Dems knew a presidential election was just a year away and they could pull the “Bush lied on WMDs” crap to divide the country. The enemy has responded.
By the way, I know you talk about Iran maybe being more of a priority, but recall that Saddam had a habit of using WMDs, while Iran had a nuke program in the earliest of stages.. they weren’t aiming a missile at NYC or something. We’ve tried to deal with them in other ways, just as we’re doing with North Korea. Each situation is unique.
At the same time, do you not see why we might have wanted to handle Iraq first? We’ve made an Iran sandwich, where Iraq and Afghanistan are the bread. If/when Iran has to be dealt with, outside of “you better not!”s from the UN, we were trying to have a better strategic launching point. Obviously no one is going to say that, but I feel like that has been obvious since day one.
I understand your points on this AP, but I don’t think this serves anyone well, especially when I’d like to know Cheney’s answer to the possible discrepancy is first.
RightWinged on August 11, 2007 at 10:09 PM
His answer (Cheney’s) is in the comments. I posted the response he gave in February to ABC News.
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 10:22 PM
Actually just got back awhile ago, so your timing is fine. I’m not trying to make an issue of it, but that was extremely confusing to me. If that’s our cause, why not make some noise about it – seems to me they let it fall to talk radio without support.
Did. Thanks for the link. Summed up: so the Russians moved them, but the CIA and Bush at loggerheads, so undermined the story. Does the impetitous then become create a friendly democracy so that they, the weapons, don’t have a place hostile to US to come home to? That would account partially for the moving goalposts here.
Spirit of 1776 on August 11, 2007 at 10:28 PM
Im sure you’d rather have 9/11 as an example for our enemies ?
William Amos on August 11, 2007 at 10:36 PM
What the fuck?
Nonfactor on August 11, 2007 at 10:42 PM
Cheney got it right in 1994.
In 2003, he was VP. Vice presidents do not set policy. George Bush wanted to get Saddam for personal reasons. Not one of them had to do with 9/11 or WMD. If tackling terrorism was the motive behind the iraq invasion, Bush should have invaded Saudi Arabia, since their connection to 9/11 was far greater than Saddam’s, and the money for the global jihad comes mostly from Saudi Arabia.
So why did he target Saddam? Why not Iran with their bomb program? Why not North Korea? Why not Syria and their terrorists connections? Why not Libya? Why not Pakistan since they are the benefactors of the Taliban? Why not Saudi Arabia, the heart and soul of islam, the center of jihadi finance, and the headquarters for Wabbahism worldwide?
Why not any of these much bigger terrorist fish?
Answer?
It was personal. There was huge animosity between the Saddam clan and the Bush family. Remember the video of Saddam on his balcony victoriously shooting his pistol into the air at the end of the gulf war? He claimed he had won a great victory over Bush even though his armed forces were in tatters. But he survived. And for Saddam, surviving was everything because it meant victory.
Saddam couldn’t believe that he was not out of power at the end of a rope. He couldn’t understand why Bush didn’t go after him. He lost the war but he was left alone to claim victory from his palace. As an arab, as a dictator, that does not compute. In the arab culture, as in the Sicilian culture, when you win, you show no mercy. Showing mercy, means showing weakness. So, in the arab mind, he was the victor. And it was a personal victory over his arch nemesis, George Bush.
At this time, when Bush kicked Saddam out of Kuwait in ‘91, Bush Sr had a 92% support rating. Re-election seemed certain. However, unlike for Saddam, fate was not kind to Bush Sr. A slimey car salesman named Clinton, and a wiseguy billionaire named Perot, and a slowly recovering economy, conspired to throw a monkey wrench into his popularity, and a year and a half later, George Bush Sr. was out on the street, a commoner again, while Saddam was living the good life.
That really stuck in his son’s craw. He is a very proud man. Fiercely proud. Perhaps that was the time at which George decided one day he would be president, on a personal mission to restore his father’s honor. Or maybe it came later.
On April 13, 1993, a group of terrorists sent by Saddam smuggled a car bomb into Kuwait to kill former president George Bush as he was speaking at a university. The plot was foiled. But the salient point was that George Bush was not even president at that time. He was an ordinary citizen. Yet, Saddam wanted him dead simply out of spite.
You can be sure that did not sit well with his son. His father spared Saddam, and Saddam repaid the kindness with an assassination plot. Bush 43 mentioned this in September 2002, just around the time he stopped talking about bin laden as a source of terror, and started to talk about Saddam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCfJBe9nKKQ&mode=related&search=
So, when Bush became president, he was already occupied with Saddam as a personal enemy of his family. He was fully aware of Saddam’s brutality. In addition to his massacre of the Kurds, George knew of the torture chambers, he heard about the rape rooms, he heard about the depraved proclivities of the father and his two sociopathic sons. He heard about the abduction and rape of Iraqi brides and brides-to-be. Indeed, after 9/11, George is on record mentioning the existence of the rape rooms on five separate occasions. It was obviously a personal issue with him. The fact that they were Saddam’s rape rooms was more salt in the wound.
So you can begin to see the confluence of factors at work in George’s mind. Saddam humiliates his father, he persecutes the Kurds, he rapes Iraqi women, tortures his people, and thumbs his nose at the international community. And if that is not enough, then, out of spite, he tries to murder his father.
Saddam was a bad seed and he, and his sons, had to go.
A mere 8 months after being sworn in, 9/11 happens. The first question George asked on that morning was: “Did Saddam have anything to do with this?” There was only one answer that George wanted to hear.
As it turns out, however, it was bin laden and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan that were responsible. But by September 2002, major combat in Afghanistan was winding down, it was not a target-rich environment, and bin laden was no where to be found. And it looked as if he may never be found. This was the point at which George changed targets – from Osama to Saddam.
This change took place not just because Saddam was now a surogate target for the unavailable Osama, but now George had a legitimate reason to go after his family’s old foe. It was the perfect opportunity to settle old scores. In that respect, I don’t blame him. If someone tried to murder my father, and I was president, I suppose I would go after him, too. But you just can’t send in the US army for personal reaons. So, George created a reason to get Saddam. He tied him to 9/11 in some convoluted way and the rest is history.
By 2003, Cheney was no longer free to speak his mind. He was VP and had to support his president on his mission. He understood the sitation in Iraq, but Cheney is a loyal man. George wanted Saddam and that was what George got. Good for him. Saddam deserved a lot worse. But don’t think for one second that it had anything to do with WMD any more than it had to do with oil. Saddam locked horns with Bush and lost. Fighting terrorism, looking for WMD, and spreading democracy, or stealing oil and enriching Haliburton, none of that is true.
It was about a mutual personal vendetta with the Saddam clan. They were obsessed with each other. Saddam went after Bush 41, Bush 43 went after Saddam. It was the Hatfields and the McCoys writ large.
jihadwatcher on August 11, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Another way to look at it is, the worst has happened. The weapons wound up in the hands of terrorist states and maybe even terrorist themselves – exactly what the war was supposed to prevent. Think they want to talk about that in public? And, what do you say and do about the Russians or Syrians? So, tight now they are happy to just say, oops bad intel…
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 11:26 PM
That’s an interesting theory, might have some legs to it. If that were the case, I would have hoped that they would have done some anyway, but I can see the reason to accept the status quo for the reasons you implied.
That makes the current situation regard the push for Israel to cede Golan Heights back to Syria even more convoluted. I’ll be interested in what the US response/diplomatic pressure plays out to be there. That might have encouraged Assad to press the issue more.
Spirit of 1776 on August 11, 2007 at 11:43 PM
I think they have a good idea what Syria got and are afraid they’ll use them. And, if they do, you know Israel might unleash the atom and then… I hope I am wrong. I hope those reports are wrong. I hope Saddam really didn’t have anything…
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 11:51 PM
TheBigOldDog on August 11, 2007 at 11:51 PM
Saddam having had an empty plate would be great. But I just don’t think the collective intelligence agencies of the world would be that far off.
That really does dice up the situation over there. There has been a lot of movement with Syria, both into Lebanon and pressuring Israel. That maybe of the root causes. I think your assessment maybe more correct then I’d like it to be.
Spirit of 1776 on August 11, 2007 at 11:56 PM
jihadwatcher, that sure was a lot of bloviating… a lot of ridiculous bloviating, but it’s really not important. It’ll just come down to a matter of opinion if we try to argue about it, so whatever.
But I do have to respond to this specific comment
That’s right out of the liberal playbook. Bush didn’t “tie him to 9/11″ and anyone who thinks he did is lying or incredibly dumb. That has been a consistent liberal talking point “Bush tried to tie Saddam to 9/11, but he had nothing to do with it!”… This is just like Joe Wilson saying “Saddam never bought yellow-cake!”. No, he “SOUGHT TO BUY” it, which is all Bush said. But media spin has lead to a large portion of the country believing that Bush lied based on a document he knew was forged, which had nothing to do with his comments. Likewise, Bush never claimed Saddam was “tied” to 9/11, he made the case very clearly and that wasn’t it.
Anyway, your opinion that Cheney just “went along” with the boss in invading Iraq is one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard. I’m not like the left who says that he is the true current president, but he’s certainly played a major role in this thing.
Look, Bush may be a b**ch on immigration, but for you to assert that this war is about a petty family beef is outrageous. Had that been the case, it could certainly have been handled in many other ways.
RightWinged on August 12, 2007 at 12:09 AM
Exactly. Why not simply destroy the stuff and document it and then get the sanctions lifted? I mean who would be stupid enough to destroy it and not tell anyone or document it?
Years ago I read every line of the last official UN inspector report (the one submitted when Clinton was in). Iraq had tons of stuff that had been tagged but never destroyed when Saddam kicked them out iirc. We are supposed to believe he destroyed it after he threw them out and didn’t even document it?
Remember early on, the Russian convoy that was attacked by us from the air? The one headed for Syria? Remember the Russians claiming it what their diplomatic staff?
I feel like to Oracle from the Matrix at times…I see the darkness spreading… I hope I am wrong. I really do but it’s the only scenario that makes any sense to me right now…
TheBigOldDog on August 12, 2007 at 12:14 AM
Nothing surprises me anymore.
John on August 12, 2007 at 12:17 AM
So is much of what got posted here today. Start at the top…
TheBigOldDog on August 12, 2007 at 12:17 AM
As I’ve thought since the lack of Shock and Awe became appparent in this warplan: it would propbably have been better for no invasion of Iraq, and then having a WMD -traceable back to Saddam- transfered to a terrorist group, and then used on us.
Because we then could have cleaned the Jihad House of all of its nest of murderous lunatics, from Tehran to Islamabad, Baghdad to Jakarta.
But striking without unity in the West, we failed to crush the Jihad, and divided the West (and America even more).
Better to be hit brutally then righteously destroy the enemy honestly, than to half-hit a part of the enemy and neither win against the Islamodascist attacker nor galvanize your people and your allies into joining the battle.
As it is, we were left open to the predictable anarcho-leftist criticisms of being “a bully“, of “starting a war of choice“, of engaging in “an un-American pre-emptive war“, and of “lying about the reasons for going to war” (even though the Democrats gave those same reasons when they were in power), ad nauseam.
9/11 did not unite the country for several reasons.
One being that a lot of people thought that the government (R and D) had betrayed them by not having the brains to stop such an act (firing all but 12 sky marshalls, and all of them being on international flights only, and the Air Force CATASTROPHICALLY NAIVELY told to “stand down” after the Cold War was “won”, guaranteed NO security in the air).
And then Osama NOT being tracked down and killed, whatever the hell it took, and wherever the hell he ran to.
The unity was Bush’s to lose.
And he did an amazing job of it.
Cheney, like Rumsfeld, is good at dismissive phrases, but not so bright at convincing the public to back this fight.
If your don’t inspire the public, you lose.
profitsbeard on August 12, 2007 at 12:19 AM
I do remember that, yes.
Sure, why not if he was going to go that way. Honestly, I just don’t see him destroying it, though, because I don’t think he ever thought we were going to do anything about it. And oil for food was a nice little bribe buffer.
Heh. I don’t usually comment too much on the ‘war’ threads – I don’t presume to know the answers, because I can’t make the pieces fit – & what I’m left with is questions about what seems to be an ever-expanding hornet’s nest.
Spirit of 1776 on August 12, 2007 at 12:28 AM
One other data point. Remember early on when Generals Scales and Mckinnerney (iirc) came out and said on Fox they knew Saddam’s WMDs were transfered to Syria and hidden in the Bakar Valley? Then all of a sudden (it seemed) they stopped talking about it at all.
it also explains why we backed off the Syrians so quickly even though we know they are funneling fighters and arms into Iraq. Otherwise, why not rattle their cage hard to get them to stop?
You need to read Bryan’s post about this illusionary 9/11 unity.
TheBigOldDog on August 12, 2007 at 12:33 AM
I don’t recall that, but I might have just missed it. I’m gonna do some googling on that tomorrow and see if I can dig up some info.
I agree.
Spirit of 1776 on August 12, 2007 at 1:01 AM
In other words you’d rather do nothing because it might upset our enemies. And let 9/11 stand and take the losses ?
William Amos on August 12, 2007 at 2:09 AM
Saddam also hadn’t shirked numerous UN resolutions against him and failed to account for the destruction of 80,000 liters of toxin in 1994.
Black Adam on August 12, 2007 at 3:45 AM
I believe that the Bush administration caved, to an extent, to the tsunami of anti-American “world opinion” that swept the globe at the beginning of 2003, causing us to fight the front in Iraq as “nicely” as we possibly could, instead of using the full extent of our power to attain victory. We’re still doing it, and paying the price.
Halley on August 12, 2007 at 3:49 AM
Agreed.
Black Adam on August 12, 2007 at 3:51 AM
Just one little niggling fact: Iraq still had chemical weapons in 1991. Oh, and another little niggling fact: Iraq’s military forces were much, much stronger back then than in 2003.
It made no sense to go further on Saddam back then, precisely because of these two facts. The entire idea of the USG was to weaken Saddam over time, and then overthrow him.
Seixon on August 12, 2007 at 12:20 PM
you should prolly be posting that stuff on your Kos Home page… cuz it’s just Nutz…
do you even understand the capabilities of the CIA? they can kill anyone… anywhere… anytime… if the Bush Family truly wanted Saddam dead he would have been dead years ago… do you know who 41 is? HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE CIA! this guys knows all the secrets… he doesn’t need his son to do his dirty work and certainly would never wage an entire war to do something as simple as kill 1 man…
you sir, are straight out of the funny papers…
I wonder with your name if you are watching or rooting?
Kaptain Amerika on August 12, 2007 at 12:26 PM
When and where did I say that? I simply stated that you were cheerleading people to death to “set and example.”
Agreed completely. One country at a time. Wait Saddam out. And then if we need to–take him or his sons out. It’s obvious the focus was taken off of Afghanistan soon after we realized we wouldn’t be getting Osama as quickly as predicted.
Nonfactor on August 12, 2007 at 2:44 PM
TheBigOldDog-
.
Thanks for the heads up.
Accurate.
The perennial kneejerk anti-American anarchist part of the disunity is to be expected, but, although I supported hitting harder than was done by GWB and his team on 9/12, I also was enraged that such a ridiculous Jihad plan as boxcutters and video-trained “pilots” could pull off this mass-murder with NO sky marshalls anywhere in sight.
The first thing I said to a guy, on 9/11, as we stood in line at a gas station’s convenience store, watching the Twin Towers burn on their tv that morning, was: “Where the hell were the sky marshalls?”
The guy shrugged.
(There were 12 of them in the entire country, and they were all on international flights. The airlines and the U.S. government had abandoned us to terrorists, and were criminally negligent and criminally derect in their Constitutional duties.)
Even loathing their incompetence, I still had to support our government’s reaction.
I only wish it had been more serious.
profitsbeard on August 12, 2007 at 2:56 PM
I was cheerleading overthrow of Saddam and the freedom of the IRaqi people. You seem too want to cheerlead for Saddam to stay in power and keep being a threat.
William Amos on August 12, 2007 at 4:14 PM
So easy to do when it’s not your life you’re gambling with, huh?
Lets play Guess the Fallacy! Hint: more than one answer is acceptable.
Nonfactor on August 12, 2007 at 7:35 PM
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