The American people coughed up more money to help the people after the sunami then any other entity on the planet and that doesn’t even include what our government gave. And yet they hate us

I was in Banda Aceh about three weeks after the tsunami, and several times there and elsewhere in the following months. This statement could not be further from the truth.

There’s a lot to be said, in my experience, for the potential of winning hearts and minds. In this particular case, the incredible lies and vitriol which had been spread about the west and the U.S. in particular, and the fairly isolated nature of the Aceh provice played in our favor. They were really expecting depraved monsters.

The reality was that their Muslim brothers responded almost not at all to help them in their plight, and the west and Christian agencies came out in spades.

I had many people say to me, and it was a refrain repeated to other aid workers as well, “Nothing I was told about you is true.” They meant “you” both as Christians and westerners, a distinction they do not make.

The icing on the cake was a man who told me how wonderful it would be if only it was possible for Aceh to become a part of the U.S. And he didn’t have stars in his eyes. He was yearning for political change.

So, yeah, hearts and minds can be won. That was a [tragically sad] golden opportunity, and we weren’t at war with any jihadis in their midst. Nevertheless, the transformation I saw was pretty staggering.

if you were first to destroy the capacity of the Americans’ enemies to make war against them, and if you seized their resources so that they couldn’t regenerate their war-making capacity, you would afterward have both greater leisure and greater resources for winning whichever hearts and minds on which it pleases you to make an attempt.

Kralizec on August 11, 2007 at 6:46 PM

Excellent point, after all we didn’t begin to “win the hearts and minds” of the Japanese and Germans until after we had effectively destroyed their war-making capabilities as well as their ability to reconstitute their war machine and they had no choice but to unconditionally surrender.

Now carpet bombing is not the only answer, granted, and I agree it will take several avenues of thought and action to effectively win the GWOT and defeat our enemies, however, until we effectively stop our enemies ability to wage war and attack us it seems somewhat futile to provide schools, roads, public works, and civil services when our enemy continues (as they do now) to destroy all these good deeds and services we have provided in the hope of winning their hearts and minds.

So John while I agree we will not win the GWOT with only bullets and bombs I have to respectfully disagree with you on when it is appropriate to focus on the “winning hearts and minds” part of this war. In my humble opinion trying to “win hearts and minds” before we have defeated our enemies ability to wage war is placing the cart before the horse.

Stick first, olive branch second.

The Koran closes their hearts and minds if they believe its dogmas.
…
The war against the ideology hasn’t begun.
profitsbeard on August 12, 2007 at 2:08 AM

Emphasis mine.

Now there’s a great nugget of understanding. Muslims have the human tendency to disregard things that make them uncomfortable and accepting things that reinforce what they already believe. Over the generations of this war we can/must affect how the Muslim ideology controls lives.

Not all Muslims believe the same things. Treating Islam as a single stereotype requires making war on over a billion people. Fortunately for us General Petraeus can see even small differences and knows how to drive wedges between groups to our advantage.

AQ beats people up for chilling water.
The Marines hand out cold water at meetings.

AQ cuts off two fingers to punish Muslims for smoking.
The Marines hand out cigarettes.

General Petgraeus has a good plan, it seems to be working. Seeing THE enemy as a single block leads to a simple single solution( See the Cheney thread). Recognizing that we have many enemies complicates our life and requires many different battles. But it will be a long war with many battles.

This is not a war. We are in a gang style street fight. Commonsense should prevail over rules of engagement. These countries are basically run as an on going criminal enterprise as compared with our standards. This was another missed opportunity as far as I am concerned.

Any hint of Crusade scares the crap out of them.
William Amos on August 12, 2007 at 2:22 AM

Yeah, a loaded word for sure, full of multiple meanings. Kind of like “jihad.” The word should be used often. Might save an American life or two.

Japan became more aggressive because it went so long without a defeat. From the 12th century on Japan had a string of unbroken military victories. It all started with the attempted mongol invasion of Japan and when it failed.

Then Japan embarked on a frenzie of self killing in the Bushido era. They were later able to invade and conquere Korea. Then Came the Russo Japanese war and Their victories in WWI. This led the Japanese to believe that they were invincible.

The same thing is going on in Islam. The last time Mecca was threatened by a non Muslim force was during the Crusades in 12rh Century. That is why the Crusades resonate so greatly in Arabic Culture. It was the time their religeon faced the greatest threat to it.

The Crusaders got the closest any enemy ever got to Mecca. That is in their lore and in their belief system. Any hint of Crusade scares the crap out of them.

Since that time Islam has had no direct threat to it. They were part of the Ottoman empire but never really involved in WWI.

So its been almost 10 centuries since a direct threat to Islam has surfaced. They suspiciously veiw the Israeli state as a great threat to them. Hence the belief that they cant let the Jewish state to continue to exist. It is a direct threat to their beliefs and their veiw of invinicibility.

“verse” not “cerse”

“farce and fraud”

The Koran says so.

Try disagreeing with it to a believing Muslim as a despised and lowly infidel.

The Koran closes their hearts and minds if they believe its dogmas.

Psyops and propaganda need to attack the Koran.

It has fatal flaws that Muslims are not being allowed to learn of (e.g.: alternate suras on earlier-than-the-current-orthodox Koran on fragments found in an old Yemeni mosque being refurbished, and the fact that Mohammad child “bride” recalled one cerse being eaten by a goat before it was enver enetered into the now-offical Koran, rendering the myth of the “perfect transmission of Allah;s words” a frace and a fraud, etc., etc.).

The war against the ideology hasn’t begun.

Because too few bother to learn it.

(And sometimes you have to carpetbomb if the ultimate gains outweigh the temporary rebounding costs.)

I’m sure there’s a really good reason and everything… :BIGGESTROLLEYESONEARTH:

TunaTalon on August 11, 2007 at 10:02 PM

To conquer the enemy without resorting to war is the most desirable. The highest form of generalship is to conquer the enemy by strategy.
-Sun Tzu

If your enemy wins the war, you are defeated.
- Sun Tzu’s nephew

Few fully comprehend the global muslim dynamic as well as Hugh Fitzgerald can explain it either in a macro or micro view. Our State Dept. would be well advised to seek his counsel.

I have wrestled with the japanese aspect of this as well. there is a big difference though. true it was a religion but it was the government we were worried about not cells of japanese all over the world.
CaptainObvious on August 11, 2007 at 10:13 PM

The obvious difference is that the Japanese had a rigid hierarchical structure while Islam is a completely flat structure. There is no head of Islam to cut off, no command and control system to sever.

A recent episode of Star Gate SG-1 had an alien intelligence suddenly understand “Ah an assumption of hierarchical command structure”. This is a natural assumption of our western culture, but not true of Islam. Just as there are cells of Islam that are our deadly enemy, there are cells that are our natural allies.

Assuming that all Muslims are alike makes our thinking easier. Getting some of them as allies makes the fighting easier.

It will be a long war. Who wins depends on who fights.

I know that sounds harsh, but that’s exactly what we did with Shintoism (and Nazism, for that matter) , and we can do nothing less now. As you’ve pointed out, the stakes are higher than they’ve ever been.

But it is going to only come from inside their own communities….CaptainObvious on August 11, 2007 at 9:56 PM

would you please read the entire thing before jumping on a strawman

CaptainObvious on August 11, 2007 at 9:56 PM

You’ll have to show us in the Koran where it teaches them to accept the infidel after said infidel has saved them from their enemy.

The point is to show that we are not the ones who are putting them into their situation. in fact we can very easily show them that we are actually the ones who do most good in this world.

The Koran teaches them not to CARE about those points. It teaches them to observe the teachings of the Koran without question. If the infidel is stupid enough to defeat their enemy for them, then a pox upon them because until the infidel converts to the Muslim faith, they are of less worth than a cow.

Now tell me, just how much good can a cow do that a follower of the true God should reject the true Gods teachings and listen to the cow?

We do agree, we need to encourage our “allies” to kill our enemies. The only problem with that is it’s inefficiency and slowness. Meanwhile, lots of Americans die.

I guess the bottom line is: never send a Muslim to do a free man’s job.

Islam must be defeated and marginalized…
Redhead Infidel on August 11, 2007 at 9:46 PM

I prefer to keep my stereotypes to fewer than one billion people.

I’m not a student of military strategy but I’m pretty sure that Sun Zu never taught “Unite your enemies”.

Whether I’m right or wrong, as you say, a hell of a lot of Muslims will have to die before Islam can be backwatered like Shintoism. Who kills them is a matter of us deciding how many we’re willing to sacrifice of our own while we’re dicking around with them. Do we have the intestinal fortitude of our forebears?

There is no room in Islam for co-existence with infidels. There is no room in Islam for reform. Islam cannot be reconciled with the kuffir. It’s them or us. Their “religion” will allow nothing less.
Redhead Infidel on August 11, 2007 at 8:56 PM

Redhead,
If you are right then we should continue to encourage our Muslim allies to kill their Muslim enemies so that in the end we will have fewer Muslims to fight.

If you are wrong then we should continue to encourage our Muslim allies to kill their Muslim enemies so that in the end we will have no one else to fight.

My preference is for you to be wrong.