The Ruger P95 is a joy to hold and the Baretta is awkward. I like shooting the former, but not the latter.

That’s just me.

Anyone remember the discussions and claims of bias when the Baretta 9mm was chosen over among others, the Ruger, The Glock, and the Sig Sauer? Half the cops in the country ended up carrying a Baretta 9mm. Now, the weapon of choice is the Sig Sauer, after it was the Glock. The Military is buying Rugers among others, including the Sigs. The Secret Service issues Sig Sauers to it’s agents. What happened to the Baretta? Hello? Anyone? Sure the Military is still buying it, but I thought it was hands down the best pistol after two rounds of testing.

Snake, the Ruger P95 outperformed the Baretta in EVERY SINGLE TEST the Army conducted in that series in 1988 (as did the Glock and the Sig Sauer). The Army decided that the difference in performance wasn’t enough to justify a $65 higher price tag per weapon for the Ruger, and even higher prices for the others. The reason why most services later turned to the P226 (other services following the Navy Seal’s lead) was an all-too-common catastrophic slide failure that resulted in injury to the user.

It was never “hands down the best”. it was the cheapest, and from a bean-counter’s perspective, that outweighed the “minor” performance deficit.

I have bet my life on the efficacy of Interceptor, and I will again, soon.

But I imagine that after garnering this much ill-will with a product that was simply not ready for prime time … Well, who knows if any gov’t agency will ever buy from them.

Bryan, you should post the video the Army made showing Dragon Skin failing

I looked at Ford, GM, and Dodge before I bought the Kia. The closest in features was the Ford, and they wanted $10,000 more for similar mini-van with a 36 month warranty.

It’s a car, not a child. If it get’s destroyed, and no one get’s hurt (Kia had the higher safety rating BTW) I don’t care if the car is totaled out. I’ll take my insurance check and get another one.

The topic is body armor, not cars, and soldiers, not children. If Dragon Skin gets totaled, will you be so cavalier about the person inside it?

Firepower, or in this case, armor versus Manuverability is one of the long standing debates. It has been going on since before World War 1.

Yeah all very fine and if you were talking about its use on a tank and needing to build a bigger engine that burns through more gas then I’d say great, let’s discuss it.

But we’re talking about people wearing these and carrying all the other gear that, and you, have experience with humping. There comes a point where soldiers just can’t carry any more and be effective. You can start getting heat and orthopedic injuries if nothing else not counting letting the enemy escape or outmaneuver you because of your fatigue and snail’s pace.

Plus, the armor doesn’t work worth a tinker’s damn for side shots and that counts for a lot of the ones police and soldiers receive in combat.

Good call on the DoJ.

The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.
Snake307 on August 8, 2007 at 5:06 PM

Good emotional appeal. But in just this one case:

1. Pinnacle’s expert said under oath that the armor was not ready for prime time.
2. The Military’s experts said under oath that the Pinnacle armor failed the standard tests.
3. The Dragon Skin armor is too heavy for use in combat.

If the facts fail to fit your formative world model then fine.

In Panama, we didn’t have Flack jackets at all. In Iraq, Gulf War 1 we did get issued the flack jackets. I thought they were heavy, unweildy, and hot as hell. I wore it because it increased chances to survive. It wouldn’t stop a rifle bullet, nor did it provide the protection of modern systems. One thing I don’t like about the plate system the Army was using in Somalia is that once the ceramic plate took a hit, it was often reduced to powder. Yes, it stopped the bullet, but the second shot wasn’t going to be stopped as easy.

The current system may be better, and the Pinacle may be better. I don’t know, and never said I did. Here is the thing though. I don’t always assume that because someone says it’s better, that it automatically is. This is the reason we are even debating Global Warming. The “experts” have announced it is a fact, it’s caused by human activity, and there is no more need for debate or discussion much less review of evidence.

If the Military announced that after a year of study they have determined that the sun rises in the west after all, some of you all would declare it to be gospel because the military said so. I on the other hand would ask if anyone had a hammer so I could adjust my compass until it agreed with the official version. That smart assed comment would anger some of you.

The army way isn’t automatically the best way. We used to joke that there were three ways of doing things. The right way, the wrong way, and the Army way. How many of you have been in a Bradley? When I was in, every crew would purchass a Craftsman Socket wrench to use while loading the gun. It was better than the army supplied tool. It probably wasn’t authorized, hadn’t been tested, but it worked. When I was squad driver, I bought a complete set of tools to work on the truck. Not because I thought I was a mechanic from hell, but because I found that the supplied tools didn’t always let me do the job I could do.

The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.

When someone opens their SUV door next to your kia in the parking lot, and your insurance adjuster totals it for the resulting dent, come back in here and tell us how much you love that 10 year warranty.

RushBaby on August 8, 2007 at 4:08 PM

Sure, considering that I paid at least 10 grand less than the SUV guy, after I pay a minimal deducatable (I have a $200) I’ll go get another Kia. I much prefer to have the cash in my pocket, rather than paying half again, or even twice as much for no more utility vehicle.

FYI, I looked at Ford, GM, and Dodge before I bought the Kia. The closest in features was the Ford, and they wanted $10,000 more for similar mini-van with a 36 month warranty. Now, how smart would I be to pay more, and get less? Perhaps if I was a Liberal, I would feel like it was my duty to do that.

It’s a car, not a child. If it get’s destroyed, and no one get’s hurt (Kia had the higher safety rating BTW) I don’t care if the car is totaled out. I’ll take my insurance check and get another one.

Tell you what guys, set up your own test. Buy a Pinnacle Vest, and buy a Military vest, and put them downrange and blast away. Shoot one, then shoot the other. See which one lasts longer. Interesting thing about all these who are denouncing the test, they won’t go see for themselves.
Snake307 on August 8, 2007 at 3:28 PM

Just the type of argument to be expected from a moniker of “snake”. The set up revealed your expectation that the military can’t be trusted. You have to do your own tests only if military has no credibility (in your own mind). In my world the military is a trustworthy source and they provide lots of documentation and video to keep it that way.

Just blasting away makes fine television but is no way to simulate combat conditions. The military tests used temperature extremes and oil, diesel fuel exposure as found in the field in Iraq. Body armor was also dropped to simulate combat conditions. The Dragon Skin vests failed miserably. Scales came off and dropped to the bottom of the vest leaving areas with zero protection. The Dragon Skin armor failed abjectly early in the test process.

The facts are clear, Dragon Skin is “not ready for prime time” as admitted under oath by Pinnacle’s expert consultant in front of Congress.

Only appeals to emotion can make this a political issue.

Oh, as BadBrad said it’s too heavy to be useful even if the obvious problems are fixed.

I heard lot’s of people talk bad about Kia, but I went to see for myself, and their warranty of 10 years sold me. I didn’t just toss a coin and decide that they couldn’t possibly meet that. I looked for myself.

Snake307 on August 8, 2007 at 3:28 PM

When someone opens their SUV door next to your kia in the parking lot, and your insurance adjuster totals it for the resulting dent, come back in here and tell us how much you love that 10 year warranty.

Who cares if it works… it’s more than 20lbs heavier. That alone is enough to say “Thanks for coming”.

BadBrad on August 8, 2007 at 12:14 PM

Almost from the inception of the Special Operations Aviation commands, they ordered the Smaller, faster, and more manuverable 500, we call Little Birds today.

The question is what would possess the Military to choose the Bell Helicopter over the apparently superior Hughes product? Some say Politics. They claim that Lady Bird Johnson owned a bunch of stock in Bell Aircraft. I don’t know myself, however I know that the Little Birds are chosen for the reasons I stated above.

Anyone remember the discussions and claims of bias when the Baretta 9mm was chosen over among others, the Ruger, The Glock, and the Sig Sauer? Half the cops in the country ended up carrying a Baretta 9mm. Now, the weapon of choice is the Sig Sauer, after it was the Glock. The Military is buying Rugers among others, including the Sigs. The Secret Service issues Sig Sauers to it’s agents. What happened to the Baretta? Hello? Anyone? Sure the Military is still buying it, but I thought it was hands down the best pistol after two rounds of testing.

The DOJ decertified Pinnacle after deciding that they couldn’t meet the 6 year warranty claim. Wait a minute, now a beurocrat has decided that the 6 year warranty is more than the company can possibly meet. Do we have examples of the 6 year warranty not being met? Do we have examples of the 6 year warranty failing? Or is it an idea that they couldn’t possibly meet the 6 year warranty claim?

Pinnacle may have a superior product, and they may not. They may have a product that could save lives, and they may not. However, I’m not about to jump on the “they are evil” bandwagon just because NBC did a report.

Remember Murphy’s Law of Combat. Your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.

I don’t see the presence of Pinnacle’s President of Vice President on the range as proof of tainted testing. If they were a thousand miles away, and I shot the armor 20 times and didn’t acheive penetration with armor piercing rounds, does that make the test better?

Tell you what guys, set up your own test. Buy a Pinnacle Vest, and buy a Military vest, and put them downrange and blast away. Shoot one, then shoot the other. See which one lasts longer. Interesting thing about all these who are denouncing the test, they won’t go see for themselves.

I heard lot’s of people talk bad about Kia, but I went to see for myself, and their warranty of 10 years sold me. I didn’t just toss a coin and decide that they couldn’t possibly meet that. I looked for myself.

But NBC’s hit piece was a completely different matter. As bizarre as it sounds, that network still tries to portray itself as carrying “news stories.” They directly slandered Dragonskin’s competitors, and they effectively accused the DoD acquisition system of murdering US soldiers.

If a defense contractor wants to do a little free PR on shows like the first two, more power to them. But what NBC did was correctly labeled as “emotional terrorism.” Those guys aren’t just incompetent; they are intentionally trying to hurt American troops and the war effort.

duuuhhh…

Dragon Skin is still an open issue , what has happened here is that some shipments of them were tagged as being certified to meeting a certain spec which they were never certified for.

That was potentially a fraudulent action which will be determined.

The issue of that vest v the current vest is being totally retested because of the attention and has not yet been settled.