Not gonna happen. Japan has a bad habit of passing our high tech weapon secrets along to our enemies. No Raptors for them.

Tantor on August 10, 2007 at 6:05 PM

But they already have so much of our weaponry or a copy of it. F-15’s and Aegis destroyers to name just a couple.

Still, I can see the USAF wanting to keep the Raptor all to themselves. That is such a kick ass bird.

Not gonna happen. Japan has a bad habit of passing our high tech weapon secrets along to our enemies. No Raptors for them.

I don’t think there are gonna be any foreign sales of Raptors. At best, there will be a British foreign exchange pilot in the USAF Raptor wing, just like they’ve done with the F-117.

The Saudis launched a worldwide jihad in the 1980s with billions of surplus petrodollars. The $500k which funded the Sep 11 attacks came from Saudi Arabia. Take any terrorist atrocity and there is a tie back to Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism. Saudi Arabia is the nexus of all Islamic terrorist evil.

While the Saudis funded the hard jihad of terror bombings and beheadings, they also fund the soft jihad which shows itself in a dozen ways in America: by funding CAIR to mount a PR and legal assault on America; by controlling the organization that supplies Muslim clerics to our prison system through which they radicalize prisoners; by building mosques in America and populating them with Wahhabi-trained imams who radicalize them; by spreading hate literature throughout every mosque in America; by distributing tourist brochures at their Washington embassy that reminds Muslim tourists it is their religious duty to hate America, etc ad infinitum.

The ultimate solution is to destroy Saudi Arabia. The princes are the petrodollar pipeline for the evil Wahhabi clergy who are blowing people into bloody chunks from New York to Bali. Sever that pipeline and let the Wahhabis whither in the desert.

That said, selling Saudis high tech weapons is the optimum course of action. It doesn’t matter if we sell them the friggin’ Klingon death ray because they’re too stupid to use these high tech weapons effectively. They have a severe cultural handicap in training in anything like fighter jets effectively. The whole Saudi military enterprise relies on American contractors keeping it going and that essential flow of spare parts and service. America can pull the plug on the Saudi military by simply pulling the contractors and stopping the support contracts.

However, the ultimate reason that it doesn’t matter if we sell the Starship Enterprise to the Saudis is that they lack the will to defend Saudi Arabia. When Iraq attacked Iran, Iran responded with a desperate defense of hundreds of thousands who used human wave tactics, fought without weapons, and never gave up. They memorialized their dead as martyrs in a huge cemetery crowned with a fountain of fake blood.

By contrast, when Iraq invaded Saudi Arabia, the Saudis blanched and outsourced their defense to America. Saudi kids did not rush to the front to defend their homeland. They stayed home with their GameBoys. The Marines had a hard time getting the Saudi military to move when the Iraqis took their border town of Khafji. The Marines had to clear the town with artillery and air support before the timid Saudis felt safe enough to reenter the town.

Saudi Arabia is a Saudi empire. Many of the people of the Hejaz, which includes the relatively more liberal population of Jeddah on the west coast, do not consider themselves Saudi and hate the Wahhab rule. The east coast where all the oil fields are is full of Shiites who hate the Saudi Sunnis, who treat them as heretics. There is only a fraction of the Saudi population who are loyal to the nation.

Even the real Saudis have no loyalty to the nation. They are loyal to their family and tribe. The idea of service to the public is alien to them. They’re not going to risk their lives or fortunes for fellow citizens they don’t know and who are not their blood. They’d sooner pack up and leave. That’s why many Saudis with money maintain residences they rarely use in the West. They are there in case they need to escape.

That said, selling weapons to the Saudis is no defense against the Iranians. First, the Persian Gulf separates Iran from Saudi Arabia. Iran doesn’t have the amphibious capability to transport an army across it. If they did, it would be a turkey shoot for the US Navy. However, if the Iranians were serious about invading Saudi Arabia and found a way to pull it off, the Saudis would be no match for them. The Saudis are an effete, weak, and incompetent people compared to the Iranians.

That said, what would be so bad about the Iranians invading Saudi Arabia, aside from the gi-normous spike in oil prices? Who wouldn’t trade a month of ten dollar gas to see the Saudis get the paste beat out of them? I would imagine those Sunni Wahhabi clerics would be at the top of the murder list for the mad mullahs of Tehran. Have at them, I say! Let the Saudi nutcases run suicide misssions against the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Let Iran and Saudi Arabia fight it out like scorpions in a bottle. Maybe Bin Laden and Zawahiri will return to Saudi Arabia and spend what’s left of Al Qaeda fighting off the Persians.

Should this happen, everyone from Hot Air can come over to my place and watch it on Fox News. I’ll pop the popcorn.

And when it’s done, the fires have died down, and the surviving combatants are exhausted, the US swoops in and mops the place up. We subtract the Saudi from Arabia and divide it into three countries: 1) Hejazia, which suvives on trade and the pilgrimmage to Mecca; 2) East Arabia, which is one big oil field run by the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; and 3) the Nejd in the north with no natural resources at all but home to the Wahhabis, who can return to the desert in abject poverty and preach their religion of hate to the camel spiders. Perhaps the Saudi princes can find jobs as hotel doormen in New York like the White Russian generals did before them. I fancy the idea of shouting at Sheikh Abdullah Wahhab through the drive through window to put extra pickles on my cheeseburger and be quick about it. Hubba, hubba, Wahhabi.

How’s THAT for a plan?

For better or worse, they are still considered an ally. An Alliance is not always built on closeness or cultural sameness–sometimes alliances are born from necessity. And they shift. Sad, but true. This is another case of “support your lesser enemy against your greater enemy”.

On Nuclear Weapons and America’s use of them (speaking to Bryan’s last comment):

If you build a tool, then know how, when, where and why to use it. Period. With nukes, be extra careful, but never take their use off the table. Ever.

On God’s role (in reference to Doug’s post):

I believe God gave us minds and free will for a reason. It is not through our inaction that good prevails. It is, instead, through our actions. To not worry, or to not take action based on those worries in perference for divine intervention seems unwise. It is to be a passive victim. What is that famous quote? “For evil to triumph, all that is required is for good men to do nothing”.

Plus, there is always the debate on whether God exists! (I can say that in a free country, not in Iran…) Wouldn’t it be prudent (echoes of G. Bush Sr.) to be prepared to take action ourselves versus waiting for divine intervention from something that may not exist? Just, ya know, speaking from a risk management perspective! (looks for lightning bolts)

The F-22 Raptor is way ahead of the latest F-15:

If we ever decide to buy enough of them at their high price!

fred5678 on August 8, 2007 at 7:14 PM

I’ve heard a rumor (and I can’t remember the source.. it might’ve been here actually) that we might sell the F-22 to Japan. That might help bring the price down a bit.

I don’t worry. Period. Not about Islamists, terrorists, nor earthquakes, tsunamis, bridges falling, etc.
Don’t worry. Trust that God knows what He’s doing.

Doug on August 9, 2007 at 1:51 AM

Not to be mean, but that comment reminds of the old joke that ends:

I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want?

Just as long as all of the most hi-tech devices (jet fighters, anti-missile bateries) have a new built-in remote “off” switch that we can activate at will, then let the Saudis buy ebough arms to fill the Ka’aba.
profitsbeard on August 9, 2007 at 12:53 AM

profitsbeard, if every hi-tech device sold to a potential enemy does not have a means prevent it use against an American target a whole chain of command in U.S.A. intelligence needs to be transferred to IED clearance.

Also this thread has no mention of spare parts. The higher tech the weapons system the more dependent it is on a steady stream of spare parts. We cannot just shut off the spare parts for Russian weapons. Money is good but spends quickly; the spare parts tail brings a long term commitment.

Don’t worry. Trust that God knows what He’s doing.

Doug on August 9, 2007 at 1:51 AM

You do mind that after hearing roseanne barr had a sex tape, I’d rather take my chances then wait for God.

Well said well said….personally I would like those deaths pushed hard to the foreigners side rather than our civilians. I don’t get but do recognize the existence of many amongst US who believe for some long passed historical evil/wrong those deaths should be here amongst US because we deserve them or some such idiocey like that.

Whatever you are smoking you need to share.

F15Mech on August 8, 2007 at 11:01 PM

Indeed. Convincing New Hampshirites and Connecticans (no idea if that’s even close to the right words) would be an impressive feat. Get the Jews to leave Jerusalem and the Muslims to leave Mecca? You’re going to need something much stronger than anything you can smoke. That’s some mainline straight-into-the-vein kind of stuff.

We seem to be moving toward a point in time that is not unlike the situation faced by President Truman in August 1945: No good options on the table, lots of wrenching choices, and no matter which path you choose, your decision will send many people to their inevitable deaths.

Indeed. And all I can guarantee in this is the same thing that was guaranteed to Truman: that the Law of Unintended Consequences will come into play.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki triggered a long chain of events. Would the Cold War have happened otherwise? Korea? Vietnam? Or would the Soviet Union have expanded into Manchuria and China – perhaps achieving global domination? Who knows? All that is certain is that his actions led to future unintended actions – and if he’d done differently, there might have been other consequences, for better or worse.

The same thing is at play here – in Saudi Arabia, in Iraq, and in Iran. Whatever we do – including doing nothing – is going to have long-ranging unintended consequences.

Selling arms to the Saudis might just save the world. Or maybe our children will be facing those same weapons.

This is why I laugh at people who suggest they could have done better than Truman – or that they have better answers than the current President. In the real world, there are consequences for everything. Hard consequences. A century from now, this is going to seem easy to some people. It’s not now. Frankly, compared to the choices facing President Bush at the moment, I think Truman had it easy.

I’m glad I don’t have to make these calls.

And I wish we could all – everybody – agree on one thing: that we can really pray that our leaders, of whatever party, have the foresight and wisdom to proceed carefully.

Turn Saudi Arabia into Israel.

jihadwatcher on August 8, 2007 at 10:20 PM

Whatever you are smoking you need to share.

So you suggest to the Jews that they give up a holy city in exchange for asking the Muslims to give up a holy city.

Let me know how that works out.

That’s right. Kick those lazy Saudis to the curb. Give Saudi Arabia, oil rights and all, to Israel. In exchange, Israel goes to the Palestinians. That makes the Palestinians happy, makes the UN happy, makes bin laden happy, it stabilizes and safeguards our oil supply, provides Israel with untold wealth, and removes the number one engine for the global jihad – the Saudi oil money. In one master stroke, this mess is fixed.

And for the Saudis? Send them to Iraq. They will hate the US, but they will also hate the Palestinians. That will throw a monkey wrench into the politics of the jihad, from which it may never recover.

So we should not arm Saudi Arabia. We should disarm it. Occupy it, displace the population and turn it over to Israel. Everyone will be happy, except the lazy Saudis, who until this point, never worked for an honest day’s pay in their lives.

The Dems, and our nations other enemies want to see us fighting for our lives…and it’s coming.

In my view, and you touched on an important point, China and Russia (to a lesser extent) are the “head waters” of all this tumult. China has been building up their military faster than any other country, other than us. A blue water navy, modern Air Force with aerial refueling capability, advanced missiles (thanks to Klinton), a manned space program, and over a billion people to operate all that stuff.

A revival of the democracy movements in both countries (China and Russia) would be a great turn of events and a welcomed change for our troubled world. I fear it may be the only way out of this Truman like conundrum.

If we ever decide to buy enough of them at their high price!

fred5678 on August 8, 2007 at 7:14 PM

Part of their high price was also caused by the addition of Air to Ground capabilities added mid-design. Not to mention the price per jet will go up if you cut the number of jets ordered.

I’m no fan of Saudi society, either, but balancing the pros and cons here, deals like this seem a no-brainer. The pros are numerous and clear, and the cons tend to boil down to little more than “We don’t like them.”

Blacklake on August 8, 2007 at 8:24 PM

I agree.

Oh, on an interesting little aside: The first operational V-22 Osprey squadron is scheduled to deploy to Iraq next month.

Blacklake on August 8, 2007 at 8:38 PM

4 out of 5 times I go to Amarillo, I get to see one of those out circling around the factory…awesome.