Iraqi interpreter to Totten: “Nuke Iraq”; Update: Maliki must go, says Time
posted at 12:10 pm on August 7, 2007 by Allahpundit
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He’s half-joking. His point is that decades of Saddam has left the population psychologically unstable; without a steady hand to transition it and a stable environment in which to recover, they’re bound inevitably to eat each other alive. His Rx? Start with the basics — which, as we saw two days ago, aren’t all that basic in Iraq:
MJT: What’s it like out there now for the average Iraqi?
Hammer: If you give average Iraqis electricity right now it will be enough. This is the most important thing. Give them power for seven days in a row and there will be no fights…
Giving them electricity would reduce violence. If you don’t believe me, ask yourself what would happen to this Army base if the power was cut off forever and the soldiers had to spend the rest of their lives in Iraq. Do think think these soldiers would still behave normally
Iraqis are paid to set up IEDs. They do it so they can buy gas for their generator and cool off their house or leave the country. Their hands do this, not their minds.
TV is the most interesting thing to Iraqis. They learn everything from the TV. Right now they only have one hour of electricity every day. Do you know what they watch? Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera pushes them to fight. If they got TV the whole day they would watch many things. Their minds would be influenced by something other than terrorist propaganda.
That excerpt’s not going to get you to read the whole thing so let me quote this too. There’s much, much more along these lines:
MJT: What is the worst thing you have ever seen in this country.
Hammer: 60 guys from Al Qaeda kidnapped an interpreter’s sister. She had a baby boy, six months old. They raped her, all 60 guys. Then they cut her to pieces and threw her in the river. They left the six month baby boy to sleep in her blood.
We found him on a big farm south of Baghdad. All that was left was his legs and his shoes. The dogs ate him.
He tells Totten that if the U.S. pulls out and he can’t a Green Card, he’ll kill himself just to deny the Mahdi Army of killing him when the civil war starts and they find out he worked with the military. If you can sponsor him and his family or you know someone who can, there’s an e-mail address at the end of the post.
WaPo’s got a sneak preview today of what post-withdrawal Iraq might look like. The case study is Basra, the disintegration of which was noted by the Guardian three months ago; Steven Vincent, the art critic turned war correspondent, saw it coming two years ago and got a bullet in his head for his trouble. Follow that last link, by all means, and see what the Brits’ “sensitivity” about looking like occupiers produced. From WaPo:
But “it’s hard now to paint Basra as a success story,” said a senior U.S. official in Baghdad with long experience in the south. Instead, it has become a different model, one that U.S. officials with experience in the region are concerned will be replicated throughout the Iraqi Shiite homeland from Baghdad to the Persian Gulf. A recent series of war games commissioned by the Pentagon also warned of civil war among Shiites after a reduction in U.S. forces…
“The British have basically been defeated in the south,” a senior U.S. intelligence official said recently in Baghdad. They are abandoning their former headquarters at Basra Palace, where a recent official visitor from London described them as “surrounded like cowboys and Indians” by militia fighters…
Home to two-thirds of Iraq’s oil resources, Basra is the country’s sole dependable outlet for exporting oil, with a capacity of 1.8 million barrels a day. Much of Basra’s violence is “over who gets what cut from Iraq’s economic resources,” a U.S. Army strategist in Iraq said…
In the early years of Iraq’s occupation, British officials often disdained the U.S. use of armored patrols and heavily protected troops. The British approach of lightly armed foot patrols — copied from counterinsurgency operations in Northern Ireland — sought to avoid antagonizing the local population and encourage cooperation.
Note the bit about oil. Whichever militia emerges as dominant in the south is going to control most of it and, as with the power situation, they’re not going to be in any hurry to share it with Baghdad. SCIRI (a.k.a. SIIC) is already pushing for more autonomy for the region and some are talking about national partition; the Kurds would naturally be onboard with that idea, too. The holdout would be Sadr, whose base is in Sadr City, but if SCIRI was willing to cede to him control of Baghdad in return for Basra and promise him they’d try to meet his energy needs, who knows? Maybe he’d consider it. That leaves the Sunnis, who have no short-term means of producing energy and no reason to trust the Shiites in SCIRI if they offered them the same deal as Sadr vis-a-vis Anbar. I wonder if the Saudis wouldn’t step in at that point and hook them up with cheap crude in return for a little friendly influence in the area.
The point to take away from this is that there are no U.S. troops in the south and no British troops in any number worth mentioning anymore, so even if we can get Baghdad and Anbar under control, there’s almost bound to be a war going on somewhere in the country — i.e. the south — by the time we leave.
Update: Here’s a nice story. “The U.S. military says it believes that the Shia-led government in Baghdad is trying to cleanse the city of all Sunnis.”
Update: Following on that last update, a columnist for Time says it’s time pull the plunger on Maliki.
The resignations of Sunni and secular members of his cabinet only confirm what Iraqis have known for months, but the Bush administration has steadfastly refused to acknowledge: that Maliki is himself a hindrance to national reconciliation. Even his severest critics in Washington seem to think Maliki is guilty only of incompetence — that he lacks the political skills to bring together Iraq’s warring communities. But it’s not that he can’t reach out to the Sunnis: he just won’t.
A Shi’ite partisan, he has surrounded himself with a group of like-minded advisers and pursued policies that, far from healing the country’s sectarian wounds, have often aggravated them. While Maliki has himself been careful to act the conciliator, especially in conversations with President Bush and American politicians visiting Baghdad, his aides have repeatedly ridiculed and humiliated Sunni leaders, and ignored the advice of secular politicians.
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Why don’t you generate the electricity yourselves? Oh, that’s right, you’re animals. You should be nuked.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 12:18 PM
Well, the US is usually good about bringing collaborators out with us. I’ve worked with several former ARVN here in Cali that came through Pendleton.
Mazztek on August 7, 2007 at 12:26 PM
Terrific!
Allahpundit on August 7, 2007 at 12:32 PM
Electricity, and all the other technologies developed by the western infidels should be rejected out of hand as tools of Satan. They should only burn olive oil for light and camel dung for cooking. This would keep them pure and closer to the ways of Mohamed.
It would also be much better if they all would live in very close proximity to Mecca.
That would make the hajj much easier for them.
TheSitRep on August 7, 2007 at 12:33 PM
I don’t even know what it means to sponsor someone like that, but if anyone should be an American, that man should. The part about the American flag patch teared me up a little. It’s just a patch, yet it meant so much to him.
And he’s right. We will be a laughing stock and worse if we allow Iraq to be ruined from our departure. His idea is so simple though that I wonder if the Army hadn’t ever thought of fining the families before.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 12:35 PM
These people aren’t the enemy. There’s no valid reason to lose sight of that.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Well, I see this post has already gone radioactive…
Bad Candy on August 7, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Michael Yon’s latest dispatch talks about the difficulties of following up the military succeses of the surge with the political progress needed to make Iraq stable. Yon is always worth a read.
BohicaTwentyTwo on August 7, 2007 at 12:40 PM
Wow. The part about his son really got to me. I hope someone can help him out; he sounds like an American to me.
He paints a pretty bleak picture about the country, but knowing that there are people there like him gives me hope.
frankj on August 7, 2007 at 12:44 PM
why can’t you just delete posts like that?
ThackerAgency on August 7, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Yeah, really Allah. Just wipe it, it has no place here.
Bad Candy on August 7, 2007 at 12:47 PM
I think that comments like that sometimes need to be recorded. But that would just be my response.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 12:48 PM
I think Totten already mentioned how those who can afford them have small generators and the issue was keeping the gas available and cheap. I’d flood that country with generators of every size and description. Disperse the generation to keep it safe and prevent single points of failure until things calm down and you can go back to a centralized model – just a thought…
TheBigOldDog on August 7, 2007 at 12:48 PM
The crassness in some of these comments…
jummy on August 7, 2007 at 12:49 PM
Trolls looking to discredit the site and make us all look like lunatics. The Left are the ones that truly don’t care about these people and all you have to do is look at Murtha’s comments the other day as recorder here on HA to see that.
TheBigOldDog on August 7, 2007 at 12:53 PM
Why not pay the Russians to just build a hydro plant or something, or do it ourselves.
Bad Candy on August 7, 2007 at 12:53 PM
Let the trolls comments stand. The rest of us can be judged by our own responses.
The Iraqis are not the enemy, The islamafascists are. Thats like saying that Americans are the enemy when it is really just the liberalfascist.
Giving the Iraqis power sounds like a good idea to me. When a person is struggling to live they will focus on what they need to do to survive. When you help them set up their basic needs then they can focus their energy elswhere, like guarding their new energy transmission lines.
Wyrd on August 7, 2007 at 1:06 PM
THIS is what I said all along. THIS is the problem with how America fights wars today. EVERY leader needs to get himself/herself a copy of Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’. I don’t care how you slice it, war deals with human nature. Human nature does not change. If you go to war, do it right or don’t do it.
America needed to go in with an IRON FIST! Say, you Iraqis are free from Saddam’s rule now, but YOU WILL DO WHAT WE SAY BECAUSE WE SAY IT. Secure the boarder, allow them to vote for their representative government. THEN GRADUALLY allow them to self govern.
We just went in and turned there world upside down and said, OK, you are free, lucky you. YOU CAN’T DO THAT. War must be fought for complete victory. Nation building comes after victory is understood by ALL INHABITANTS. If you don’t do it right, you don’t do the inhabitants any favors by doing it ‘compassionately’.
Rumsfeld was in charge, and Rumsfeld wanted to win a war compassionately. You can’t do it. You must win the war and rule with an iron fist until the nation can be built. We should have said ‘DO WHAT WE SAY BECAUSE WE WON THIS WAR’. Since we didn’t we have these problems.
ThackerAgency on August 7, 2007 at 1:06 PM
whoever they are and whatever their motives are, it’s nasty and i’m glad we’re vocalising our offense taken of it. truley this belongs on the “genocide isn’t worth preventing” left.
jummy on August 7, 2007 at 1:06 PM
Disperse the power generation. Maybe some solar?
Mojave Mark on August 7, 2007 at 1:07 PM
Can’t come close to imagining the despair that the Iraqi people live with each and every day.
His comment about getting too much freedom all at once, makes sense. After being psychologically brutalized for 3 decades and then be given their freedom; asking themselves, “okay, where do we go from here?” Fear, distrust,depression,paranoia, aren’t the best foundations to rebuild a life from. We have to help these people. I like TheBigOldDogs’ suggestion for starters.
captivated_dem on August 7, 2007 at 1:07 PM
I have no doubt
bnelson44 on August 7, 2007 at 1:11 PM
Seems about right,
“no beer and no TV make Homer something something…”
“Go Crazy?”
“Don’t mind if I do!”
Much truth to that. How long would our society remain stable without decent access to electricity and all the groovy stuff it provides?
Totten’s stuff is always a must read.
Krydor on August 7, 2007 at 1:30 PM
Electricity shortage ?
Why don’t we let the French build some nuke powered generating plants… it’s a win, win, win, win.
The Iraqis are happy, they have electricity.
The French are happy, they get build their plants at last, and as an added bonus, we’ll let them bribe us.
The terrorist’s are happy, they get to spend all day blasting Zionist Crusaders in Halo 2: Jihad Edition, much more fun than getting blown to bits compliments of a F-16.
And we’re happy, we get to leave.
elgeneralisimo on August 7, 2007 at 1:33 PM
Their very religion begs to diff.
When the prophet they follow tells them to kill you, Tax you and lie to you.
You might want to rethink that.
TheSitRep on August 7, 2007 at 1:33 PM
He is half joking, I’m no joking….
Tim Burton on August 7, 2007 at 1:46 PM
About 72 hours in the urban areas before things get uncomfortable in every aspect. Things get progressively worse as time goes on. Wish I had a link, but I heard this from an electricity expert with the state police or DHS, can’t remember which.
DCA on August 7, 2007 at 1:57 PM
We are not at war with Islam. That also needs to be understood.
It’s one thing to speak about how Islam can lend itself easily, with the passages you reference, to the violence we see today. It’s another thing altogether to assume that all Muslims want to subjugate us. It’s an asinine suggestion.
ANY ideology, religious or otherwise, can be used for violence. Some ideologies are an easier tool for this purpose than others. But that doesn’t mean that we need to attack the ideology since that’s the only thing that changes every few decades.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 1:58 PM
How about something a little bit more sturdy and bullet resistant.
BohicaTwentyTwo on August 7, 2007 at 2:01 PM
We’re not?
I beg to differ.
Viper1 on August 7, 2007 at 2:07 PM
You’re welcome to, but that doesn’t change the facts. If we wanted to end Islam, we’d be doing very different things than we are now.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 2:14 PM
Build hydro, solar power, etc…
Really? Who’s going to invest in building a reliable energy grid when our enemies will just sabotage it over and over again?
CliffHanger on August 7, 2007 at 2:24 PM
It might just be simplistic-sounding answers that a deeper truth lies. I wouldn’t discount what the interpreter says…
As for Steven Vincent, I was fortunate enough to receive a note from him just a few days before he died. Here it is:
X-Originating-IP: [204.127.131.115]
Return-Path:
Hi Jauhara –
I wanted to drop you a line and thank you for recent kind words about ITRZ. I also read with some amusement your comments on the site and your dispute with Frank. You go girl!
I hope you find my latest post to your liking. Let me know what you think.
Thanks again for reading and writing and giving me a nice boost. It can get a little lonely here in Basra, so I appreciate your comments.
Yours from the banks of the Shatt-al-Arab,
Steven Vincent
I never was able to let him know what I thought. But for all those who are serving there now, you are ever on my mind and heart. I know that our small Pennsylvania town has many of you there, now.
Keep Surgin’On!
Jewel on August 7, 2007 at 2:27 PM
There is a man named Robert Spencer you should meet. Or at least read his blog. You have no clue what the west, what the world, is dealing with when it deals with islam.
I have no sympathy for the Iraqis. Sure, they suffer. But they suffer because their culture and religion is one of depravity. Both the religion and the culture lack compassion and empathy. If they had money, if they had electricity, they would be no better than Saudi Arabia, where teenage girls are raped by the government and beheaded while crowds gawk in admiration for upholding islamic law, the very same crowds you feel sorry for now simply because they have no electricity.
Islam is the enemy. It demands that the west be destroyed. If not from without, for lack of military might, then from within, and islamic agents like CAIR are actively engaged in that process for the betterment of their descendants. We have welcomed muslims into our society out of pity, believing these muslims to not be of the bad guys only in the end, to find out that with a full stomach, with an education, with a TV, with a shower and a shave, they are renewed, healthy, and ready pick up the koran and go about jihad. Witness the muslims that were taken as refugees from Kosovo. They paid America back by hatching a plot to massacre US citizens at Fort Dix.
Perhaps it is best if some people have no electricity.
jihadwatcher on August 7, 2007 at 2:35 PM
What he said…
CliffHanger on August 7, 2007 at 2:44 PM
commentors here keep on proving themselves to be completely ridiculous bloodthirsty bigots.
btw, reading two robert spencer books does not an expert in islam make.
zane on August 7, 2007 at 2:48 PM
DCA on August 7, 2007 at 1:57 PM
That sounds right. I don’t think it would be Iraq in 72 hours, but the madness would begin.
Krydor on August 7, 2007 at 2:50 PM
By not controlling the Iraq borders immediately following toppling Saddam, has allowed a slew of subversive and divisive forces to enter and negatively affect the Iraqi people.
Border security, Bush has screwed up both domestically and abroad.
Zaire67 on August 7, 2007 at 3:01 PM
Amen. It’s not that we fought a war “on the cheap,” its that we are fighting a war for a.) popularity b.) our feelings c.) careerism in the DOD & State Dept.
Most people know Sherman’s War is Hell. Fewer people remember that he said, War is cruelty. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. A horrible and sad commentary on human affairs.
The problem lies in finding the balance between the civilians- who are NOT our enemy- earnestly trying to take back their nation, and the militias and terrorists who are our enemies. We need to find more people like “Hammer,” to incentivize and foster them to take charge.
cadetwithchips2 on August 7, 2007 at 3:02 PM
adding an afterthought to my last post:
The reason not enough “Hammers” are stepping up, as he states, they think the US is going to give up and leave (as happened the last time). If we don’t fight to win, they won’t.
cadetwithchips2 on August 7, 2007 at 3:06 PM
Before I went to Iraq, I would agree with you. But an Iraqi A/C repairman (a Muslim, no less) pointed something out to me: Saddam’s reign as what he described as an awful example of Islam and terrible leader is what makes that nation remotely capable of generating some semblance of a secular government. As he put it, “For so long we were told that we should submit because he is king and a muslim and we are an islamic nation. But he was so terrible, that maybe we shouldn’t have a king who is muslim, so that we don’t have to listen to him as much.”
From the people I met down there, it seems that the majority are decent people, who just want to work, spend time with their family, and enjoy life. To that end, electricity, clean water, and some sense that they’re not going to get shot or blown up when they go to buy watermelons from the market is all they’re really after. That is to say, they want what I want from life, and what I suspect most people want.
Spc Steve on August 7, 2007 at 3:12 PM
You are right that we are not at war with Islam.
But are you sure that we should not be? Or perhaps more accurately – are you sure that we shouldn’t at least be asking the question of whether we should be?
Read the text I quoted. That act was not done despite a religion; it was done to further a religion. A significant percentage of people in that religion seem to believe it explicitly endorses – even commands – that type of behavior. As others have noted, that religion’s holy book seems to explicitly condone – even command – such conduct.
I’m no longer convinced that it’s an intellectual honest position to simply ignore these facts and repeat the trope: “Islam isn’t the problem.”
Can you imagine a scenario in which 60 21st century Christians or Jews – faithful, observant members of those religions – did something like that in the name of their faith?
Certainly I agree that any religion can be misused and even used for violence – but are you sure “any” religion can really be used so routinely, so globally, to create a worldwide pandemic of orgiastic slaughter? Really? Should I really worry that the Mormons will suddenly start raping and murdering and torturing, not occasionally but daily, thousands and thousands of times?
Really?
Or does the plain truth suggest otherwise?
Are we ever allowed to come right out and ask if Islam might, itself, be the problem? Is it possible that that is verifiable truth?
Or will we keep refusing even to ponder the question – because its ugly?
I’m not offering – or even suggesting – the answers. But I’m increasingly reluctant to dismiss the questions so quickly. I think our politically correct refusal to take a long look at objective truth about Islam is dangerous – bordering on suicidal.
Professor Blather on August 7, 2007 at 3:14 PM
PRCalDude on August 7, 2007 at 3:17 PM
Shorter me: in the past, when Christianity was abused (parts of the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.), the behavior of the abusers was explicitly in contradiction with the actual teachings of Christianity, of the explicit words of its Founder, and of the words in that religion’s Holy Book.
Can the same be said of Islam? Are these murderers acting wholly in contradiction to the tenets of their faith? Or is their action supported by their religion, and by the explicit teachings of the Koran?
And am I allowed to ask?
Professor Blather on August 7, 2007 at 3:20 PM
Maybe not but seeing the WTC fall and a plane ram into the Pentagon gies us as much insight as we need.
But yes, mindless rage does not solves anything.
TheEJS on August 7, 2007 at 3:21 PM
Are we ever allowed to come right out and ask if Islam might, itself, be the problem? Is it possible that that is verifiable truth?
Professor Blather on August 7, 2007 at 3:14 PM
“Today I bake, tomorrow I brew,
The day after that I’ll steal the queen’s baby
Oh it’s so good nobody knows
That Rumplestiltskin I am called”
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 3:25 PM
If you read the history of the Dark Ages, you’ll find that guys like Charlemagne and El Cid learned a lot of their behavior from the Muslims they fought. Almost certainly, Charlemagne got his ‘baptism or death’ concept from the Muslims. When the Muslims were finally kicked out of Spain in 1492, they had already permanently etched much of their thinking into the Spanish psyche, which caused Napoleon to remark, “Europe ends at the Pyrenees,” when he beheld their culture. Words like Mafia found in Southern Italy come from the Arabic for ‘refuge.’ People should try to keep this in mind.
Yes, there were big wars between Protestants and Catholics after the Reformation. And there was the three hundred year parenthesis of the Crusades, but a just war cause was made by Pope Gregory for them. I’m not a Catholic, but the idea of going to war to protect religious minorities in Islamic countries certainly sounds just to me. There’s not much comparison between the militaristic expansion of Islam and Christianity, IMHO.
PRCalDude on August 7, 2007 at 3:31 PM
To:
What zane said.
And please, anyone who thinks I’m stupid, I’m on this site, obviously I know who Robert Spencer is.
Of course you are, because this is something that is constantly asked, something I’ve mentioned myself.
HOWEVER, there’s something that should be noted. Christianity started out as a bunch of former fishers starting what we’d now consider a commune, living peacefully with other believers while spreading the Gospel. They weren’t building a religion; they were just spreading the Truth without worrying about what would and would not be in line with being a good Christian.
It wasn’t until much later that the New Testament came to be. Christians at one point decided what they wanted and didn’t want in their religion, knowing that how they would be perceived by the rest of the world was important.
I don’t disagree that Islam has its problems and that terrorists will continue to be spawned from the teachings of Islam if nothing in that religion changes; however, it’s not my place to say that religion cannot change, especially when Christianity has gone through as many changes as it has.
As Christians, we can excitedly point to the Bible and prove Christ would never have been cool with the Inquisition or the other horrible things done in His name, but we’re basing it on letters and other documents that other Christians decided to call holy scriptures, and they did that based on the current times.
Had the Christians picked their verses as a nation, rather than a persecuted group of believers who came from all nations, it might look much different today. As a Christian we can easily say that this didn’t happen because God is in control and guided His church to this purpose, but a believer could make that point no matter the outcome.
As it is, Islam is directly related to a nation that was, like all nations at that time, comfortable with military conquests.
Look, if Islam cannot evolve, then it will die, but if it can evolve humanity in general will benefit.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 3:37 PM
Baptist was burned at the stake for daring to disagree on nonkey issues in the Christian faith.
I’ve heard a stories about martyrs, those killed by other so-called Christians, who were about to die. They told one another, if it’s not unbearable, raise to fingers for the rest of us. And the first one did so, giving hope to the others condemned to die.
What Christians do to each other is far more f-ed up than what was done to that concubine who was torn into 12 pieces for the twelve tribes.
We are supposed to be the body of Christ, and we’re supposed to actually have the truth here.
And yet some of you want to compare us to suicide bombers and say, “at least we don’t condone rape.” It doesn’t work like that. If you actually have the truth and still bicker among each other, tearing apart what we believe is the body of our Savior, we’re much worse than people who we believe have lost the truth, since we have no excuse.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 3:44 PM
I hope he’s wrong about that, but we did it once and sadly we just may do it again.
Go away idiot troll.
infidel4life on August 7, 2007 at 3:49 PM
Just to be clear though, I did already admit that Islam is more susceptible to being used this way, especially in these post 9-11 times. I’m not even trying to say otherwise.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 3:50 PM
That has to be the biggest understatement I’ve seen in the history of HotAir comments.
infidel4life on August 7, 2007 at 3:54 PM
Fair enough.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 3:57 PM
“You may imagine how glad the queen was when she heard the
name. And when soon afterwards the little man came in, and
asked, now, mistress queen, what is my name, at first she
said, is your name Conrad Christian? No. Is your name Harry Judaism? No. Perhaps your name is Mohammad Rumpelstiltskin?
The devil has told you that! The devil has told you that, cried the little man, and in his anger he plunged his right foot so deep into the earth that his whole leg went in, and then in rage he pulled at his left leg so hard with both hands that he tore himself in two.”
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 3:57 PM
If providing the country with electricity is going to cut down on violence then get them some damn electricity.
SoulGlo on August 7, 2007 at 4:00 PM
Look, if Islam cannot evolve, then it will die, but if it can evolve humanity in general will benefit.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 3:37 PM
It has been what 1400 years and it ain’t evolved yet and it is still very much alive.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 4:02 PM
I’m sure you will hear a story in the next few days from the brits saying what the hell was that all about. Beware of your enemies at home.
These are stories, power etc…that have been stories for quite a while…they are well placed to dishearten the masses. Don’t forget that.
tomas on August 7, 2007 at 4:02 PM
That was a phenomenal story from Totten. And tragic. God Bless that interpreter. I hope he and his family are allowed to become Americans someday. Those are the kind of people we want.
Also, re: the electricity, it still amazes me that after 4 years they only have one hour a day and the grid is in shambles. Maybe the new stuff has been constantly destroyed when they put it up, I don’t know, but I hope we can fix this problem. The interpreter made a good point about the need for it.
CP on August 7, 2007 at 4:09 PM
Spc Steve on August 7, 2007 at 3:12 PM
Politically, Iraq started with an essentially clean slate with the fall of Saddam. They had every chance, and every reason, to establish a secular government founded on the recognition and protection of individual rights. Instead, they based their constitution on sharia, replacing one tyrant with a flux of tribal tyrants. No one forced them to enslave themselves anew; they did it willingly.
Those who want to be free have to do more than wave angry arms at the sky and curse the imperialist Americans for not providing them security and infrastructure. They must put their desires into action and fight for this free state they supposedly want. They have to stop sanctioning jihadist mosques, and tribal conflict, and anti-American demonstrations, and start defending those who are spilling their blood to save them, build the institutions that make civilization go, kill those who will wreck what you build, and support only those who champion your freedom.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 4:18 PM
Well. If Time says he has to go then that’s it. He’s gotta go! We all know how much integrity and honesty Time magazine has. Their hard nose un-biased and dogged fact checking is second to none within the MSM community.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 4:30 PM
This is a dangerous idea Esthier. You must understand what is happening in the context of the world for you to make blanket statements about the benevolence of the ideology.
The problem is that people (including yourself) can not distinguish between the PEOPLE (who we love) and the IDEOLOGY (which me must destroy).
Are good PEOPLE also MUSLIMS? OF COURSE. The problem is that they play a ‘good cop/bad cop’ game. The ‘bad cops’ depend on your guilt to succeed in dominating. I have no doubt there are many good PEOPLE who are also MUSLIM. But how many of those good PEOPLE are muslim because they have never been taught different?
I’m not saying they all need to be Christian (though I think it would do a world of good). They can be any other faith that doesn’t preach the need to destroy the ‘unbelievers’ for ‘god’.
People who say we are at war with Islam are not entirely accurate. ISLAM IS AT WAR WITH US. The sooner you understand that, the sooner you will understand what we are facing. We are not at war with people. We are struggling for our very survival against this corrupt ideology that depends on the destruction of modern civilization.
ThackerAgency on August 7, 2007 at 4:32 PM
This is pretty much what the fate of this interpreter and his family would end. Shocker! You have been warned! This is what the Dems are going to allow to happen to the Iraqi people for seeking power at all costs. This fate for many around the world will be similar after we give up.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 4:36 PM
HERE’S the problem. In Machiavelli, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CHOICE TO DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT!
We should have allowed them to elect their officials after we drafted their Constitution filled with human rights for them.
The problem is that they don’t understand why they need ‘human rights’. They’ve never had ‘human rights’. How can they set up a government on their own without knowing what ‘human rights’ are? They know sharia, they are Muslim, that’s what they did.
By expecting them to set up a government that respects human rights, we were expecting them to recreate the wheel by choice.
ThackerAgency on August 7, 2007 at 4:37 PM
First off, it is entirely naive to believe that we, free people, will allow Islam to kill us. If you believe that, then I must assume you’re not planning to fight, in which case you don’t believe a word of what you’ve just written.
This statement makes no sense. If good people can come in contact with Islam and still remain good people, then clearly Islam isn’t the issue.
I’ve said time and again that Islam itself has a problem, but having a problem and being the problem are two different things. To say that the “good Muslims” are simply ignorant is to be completely one-sided while approaching a rather complicated problem.
Once we can say that it is possible to be a good person and a Muslim, we’re admitting that Islam itself has no power to pronounce war on anything.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 4:43 PM
Update: Following on that last update, a columnist for Time says it’s time pull the plunger on Maliki.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Is Time advocating “Diem II” ?
“In 1963, some of Diem’s own generals in the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) approached the American Embassy in Saigon with plans to overthrow Diem. With Washington’s tacit approval, on November 1, 1963, Diem and his brother were captured and later assassinated.”
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 4:44 PM
Gruesome, but we need to see stuff like that every once in awhile, just to remind us of the kind of enemy we face.
infidel4life on August 7, 2007 at 4:45 PM
When America was first created, it condoned slavery.
What in the hell kinda chance did a country like Iraq have after Saddam was killed? What kinda chance would Cuba stand or any country with a dictator for that matter?
Try some perspective.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 4:46 PM
This statement makes no sense. If good people can come in contact with Islam and still remain good people, then clearly Islam isn’t the issue.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 4:43 PM
Huh?
By that logic if a doctor, or anyone, came in contact with some one who had cancer they would get it too.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 4:48 PM
What in the hell kinda chance did a country like Iraq have after Saddam was killed?
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 4:46 PM
Probably as good a chance as they will ever get. They were handed a gift and they appear to be throwing it away.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 4:50 PM
Disagree totally.
One can be ‘in contact’ with Islam culturally and socially and not embrace it fully as a religion and an ideology.
Those who do embrace it fully are the jihadists, they are following Islam to the letter. Muslims are not the problem, Islam is the problem. It’s in the Koran.
infidel4life on August 7, 2007 at 4:50 PM
If cancer free people can come in contact with Cancer and still remain cancer free people, then clearly Cancer isn’t the issue.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 4:55 PM
ThackerAgency on August 7, 2007 at 4:37 PM
Agreed, especially on the point that we should have installed a constitutional republic based on our Constitution. I disagree with invoking, Machiavelli, however, whose appeal as a master rationalizing manipulator provides no more cover for the fact that he was a savage brute. It is not Machiavellian to force those who live by the law of the jungle to live by the inviolability of individual rights. It is, in fact, moral.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 4:57 PM
It is not Machiavellian to force those who live by the law of the jungle to live by the inviolability of individual rights. It is, in fact, moral.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 4:57 PM
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
You can give someone the opportunity to learn or to do something, but you can never force him to accept that opportunity.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:02 PM
Unfortunately, to truly understand the realities of these brutal anti-freedom ideologies this is sometimes what it takes to get the message through. We humans have short term memories for moral lessons.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:04 PM
In what basis are you stating this as fact?
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:06 PM
That’s actually not the logic I was using. By “come in contact with” I mean those who are Muslim.
I used the words “come in contact with” because some of you here are treating it like a disease.
Actually, that’s kinda my point, in a way. If Islam is all about jihadi fascism and yet Muslims are able to be Muslims without being jihadi fascists, then the problem must not be Islam.
So were we, and so did we.
If you recall, we didn’t beat the British on our own.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:15 PM
Historical fact.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:15 PM
So basically, the ones who don’t want to kill us just aren’t real Muslims, meaning the vast majority of Muslims just aren’t actually Muslims.
I’m a little confused though. You call the one poster a troll but yet agree completely with him.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:17 PM
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:02 PM,
It will take at minimum an entire generation to reverse the effects that Tyranny and Radical ideologies have created on the psyche of the population. About 15-20 years.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:18 PM
Historical fact.
You believe the 13 Colonies and the entire population owned slaves and condoned slave ownership and was a national trend? Indoctrination really does work.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:20 PM
The Iraqis have gotten a lot more help from us than we ever got from the French. Not even close.
Your reasoning is still escaping me.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:22 PM
I’m generally in agreement with you, Esthier, except on this point.
It is the basic core tennet of the Islamic faith that Muslims are destined to subjugate the world under Islami rule and under Sharia law by any means necessary.
So we may not technically be at war with them, but they are very clearly at war with us.
Lawrence on August 7, 2007 at 5:24 PM
No entire population does anything and believes anything collectively. I know that not all of them did, but it’s also a fact that when America came into being that it did not stop it.
It’s ridiculous to even make that statement. You could also say that the entire population of America does not support abortion and that not everyone has had an abortion and therefore America doesn’t condone abortion.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:24 PM
It will take at minimum an entire generation to reverse the effects that Tyranny and Radical ideologies have created on the psyche of the population. About 15-20 years.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:18 PM
Nothing will ever be cured if you do not treat the main disease.
RumpelstiltskinIslam is it’s name.MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:25 PM
Indeed. Egfrow is absolutely correct.
Lawrence on August 7, 2007 at 5:26 PM
Historical fact.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:15 PM,
There was slavery but it was not a dominant part of the culture and was a carry over from Europe. Only the elites had slaves. Over 99% of the rest of the population never had nor considered owning slaves. The United States had less slaves compared to other countries during the same period of the revolutionary war. Not even comparable to France, England, and Spain which had way more. The people that came here were slaves from Europe.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:26 PM
Christianity also believes that one day we’ll rule the world, not through sharia law at least, but the basic idea is still there.
We also weren’t previously under the rule of a dictator. I’m not saying it’s exactly the same. In many ways we had advantages the Iraqis do not. In some, they have advantages that we didn’t.
Even still, we didn’t do it on our own, and we weren’t perfect.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:27 PM
That’s some imaginiation ya got there if you think I agree with the ‘nuke the Iraqi animals’ comment.
infidel4life on August 7, 2007 at 5:29 PM
Your point? I’m not arguing how many or how few.
Besides, you say only the wealthy had slaves, who do you think ran the country?
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:29 PM
Why not? They’re Muslims, and Muslims are at war with us. Why spare them if they’re just going to keep trying to kill us?
You can’t kill an ideology. You can only kill people.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:30 PM
No but you can make an ideology so unattractive that people don’t want to join (whether social status or health reason), like National Socialism.
TheEJS on August 7, 2007 at 5:33 PM
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 4:46 PM
When America was created, it was torn from the outset over slavery. Many in the Continental Congress threatened to veto the Constitution over that issue alone, so repugnant was slavery to their Enlightenment values. Others begrudgingly accepted it, hating it themselves, but compromising to hold the Republic together. And still others insisted on its inclusion. The compromisers “won”. Bitter disputes split the country, lasting until the Reconstruction. This essential part of American history has been virtually erased from the modern Progressive educational curriculum.
They had every political chance. The means were there to write the protection of individual rights into law. Instead, they wrote sharia. Philosophically, they had no chance, since they hold mysticism and tribalism superior to individualism and reason. That is the difference between 21st century Iraq and colonial America.
If they truly wanted to be free, they would take responsibility for their own affairs, annihilate the insurgents, shower us with oil in appreciation for unshackling them from Saddam, and proclaim to the world that they recognize that they key to civilization is not inert goop in the ground, but the freedom of man to pursue life-affirming values by the exercise of his reasoning mind.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Japan did not normalize it’s population from radicalism until the 1960’s. South Korea didn’t adapt western style capitalism and until the start of the late 1970’s. Germany was in deep rehabilitation for about the same time as Japan. There was a violent Nazi ‘insurgency’ in Germany until the late 50’s.
Unfortunately, here in the USA we are now seeing the effects of 20 years of leftist indoctrination on our society. The reversal has started but it’s still a weak effort. Mediocrity is still spreading.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:36 PM
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:02 PM
True. By “force”, I meant only that we would force them to accept such a constitution as law. I have no doubt that they would immediately devise to replace it with sharia. But, at least we wouldn’t have given it our stamp of approval.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 5:37 PM
In many ways we had advantages the Iraqis do not. In some, they have advantages that we didn’t.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:27 PM
The biggest advantage that we had compared to them is that we didn’t have Islam.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:38 PM
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 5:37 PM
I don’t think that I can argue with that.
MB4 on August 7, 2007 at 5:41 PM
And yet that one’s still alive and kicking.
Actually, it’s not. I’m fully aware of all of that, and really, it does you no good in any debate to assume the person you’re talking to is ignorant.
You’re not arguing about the internal, or even external, wars waging in Iraq over how things should be done. You’re simply talking about the results, which is really all that matters.
Whether or not the founders actually cared about a bunch of black slaves is irrelevant to the fact that America allowed slavery for a very long time before getting rid of it. We weren’t free of inhumane treatment at our country’s inception.
It’s arrogant to place ourselves so much higher than Iraq, especially considering that we didn’t have to deal with Iran and the aftermath of being ruled by a dictator.
No, they didn’t.
And how can “animals” do any of that?
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:42 PM
Wow! Stalin and Hitler thought that way also. So did Japan.
Might is right huh, Ideologies are not a group collective but simply the beliefs of individuals who converse and gather around one another. An individual is an entity and so the Ideology change or shift must be addressed in this fashion. Of course it takes longer but your way is faster. Just gas them in the showers.
Egfrow on August 7, 2007 at 5:43 PM
One point that I cannot state with any greater conviction: allowing for the unforgiveable monstrosity of institutionalized slavery of colonial America, if the Iraqis handed their country to men with one tenth the integrity, rationality, morality, and ability of our Founding Fathers, I would be their biggest cheerleader. Hell, I might even move there.
Lazarus on August 7, 2007 at 5:43 PM
Right. Because all evil in the world begins and ends with Islam.
Esthier on August 7, 2007 at 5:45 PM
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