Two men arrested in SC bomb scare charged with possessing incendiary device; Update: Pipe bombs?
posted at 2:51 pm on August 6, 2007 by Allahpundit
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They’re looking at anywhere from two to 15 years in prison, but if the Blotter’s right it may be a huge misunderstanding.
Two Egyptian nationals [Some reports claim one is from Kuwait. -- ed.] stopped for speeding in South Carolina Saturday evening were carrying precursor chemicals, used in improvised bomb-making as well in as model rocketry, lengths of plastic pipe and twists of hobby fuse, and model rocket launchers, according to investigators…
When stopped along I-76 at 6 p.m., about seven miles from a U.S. Navy weapons station, the driver, who said he was a hydro-engineering major at South Florida University, told a deputy he was carrying explosives. When a bomb technician and additional officers arrived, the driver stated he and his passenger were using the materials to make homemade rockets…
In the vehicle, investigators say they found potassium chlorate and sugar, which when combined with a catalyst create what has been dubbed “instant fire” releasing heat, flames and smoke in a spectacular fashion. As a result, they are used in making fireworks and as a fuel for model rockets.
In addition a can of gasoline, PVC pipe, four hobby store brand rocket launchers and hobby store brand fuses were found, investigators said. The four PVC pipes contained an unknown substance. Also taken into evidence was a laptop computer, a GPS unit and Trac cellular telephones.
The GPS unit is a bit odd but it may be they were simply looking for a field to fire rockets from. The one genuinely suspicious detail (well, two, depending upon what they find in the pipes) as first noted by Dan Riehl yesterday is that one of them tried to hide the laptop when they were pulled over. Unless he had some porn on there and was unusually paranoid about the cops finding it, it’s hard to understand why he makes that move.
Anyone here into model rockets, incidentally? How do you transport this stuff if it’s so explosive as to risk a 15-year jail sentence if you get caught with it in your trunk?
Update: Via Dan Riehl, things are starting to look less innocent.
Authorities say two Middle Eastern men arrested near a Navy base had several pipe bombs in their car…
According to an affidavit with his arrest warrant, Mohamed admitted he made the pipe bombs from items he bought at Wal-Mart.
Defense attorney Dennis Rhoad says Mohamed and Megahed have a reason for having the devices, but he declined to comment further during their bond hearing.
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I used to do model rockets a long time ago. If they were mixing their own propellant for engines than they were playing with some big rockets.
For big rockets, you usually have to go to designated launching places to do it IIRC. I’m not real sure, its been a long time. The GPS could have been for fields, but I doubt it. They could have been using it to track rockets as they came down.
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 2:59 PM
Most people use a cardboard tubing with some kind of treatment on it so it doesn’t burn up, when you use PVC and other stuff, you’re playing with more serious stuff.
Upon reading wiki, they might be using reusable engines.
Ah, wiki says that the FAA regulates High Power launches, which is what I thought.
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:07 PM
Google maps have GPS coordinates. And are registered to true north, and are to scale, and have recognizable land marks.
If I wanted to fire rockets to an out of sight target I would use Google maps satellite image to find a good launch point with a known range, and use GPS to verify the location.
Of course it could be all coincidence. The real Al Qaeda is only in the mountains of Pakistan. Anyway we all know that a shared philosophy means nothing.
TunaTalon on August 6, 2007 at 3:10 PM
The stuff itself isn’t exposive, unless you ignite it, however, it is more regulated since 9/11. After 9/11, you have to actually carry a license to be in possession of the propellant material, which may be why they’re in trouble.
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:11 PM
The Trac phones add to the suspicion as well. They are untracelable and considered as disposable. Perfect for those who are worried about being monitored. Also good for poor or transient people, too, of course.
RW Wacko on August 6, 2007 at 3:11 PM
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 2:59 PM
Now if I recall correctly in order to do anything with the big rockets you have to be certified by a state approved model rocketry association, so these guys claims should be quite easy to check out. Attempting to fire off a large non commercial model rocket without the proper certification is a criminal offense.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 3:12 PM
I think that the “OMG, I just got walked in on while looking at porn, must hide it” reflex is so ingrained in men that it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s all it was in this case.
And if you ever have been walked in on, “must hide it” doesn’t necessarily refer to the porn…
Enrique on August 6, 2007 at 3:13 PM
Egyptian nationals probably shouldn’t be in the country in the first place, and if they are, they shouldn’t be stupid enough to shoot off rockets, if that’s really what they were doing.
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on August 6, 2007 at 3:13 PM
Model rockets aren’t targeted, though, are they? If these guys were using them as mortars, the GPS wouldn’t do them any good. They’d have to “dial in” through trial and error.
Allahpundit on August 6, 2007 at 3:14 PM
Yeah, and model rocketry will definitely put you in the poor house. Seriously, I can’t tell you how much cash I dropped into rockets, that was some serious chore/birthday money for a kid. Though I only used from AA to E sized rockets, which are all pretty small. I oughta dig out some of my old rockets…
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:14 PM
Just my 2 cents from another guy that’s spent “some” money on Model rockets.
The GPS could/would be used for calculating distances from the launch site.
HarryStar on August 6, 2007 at 3:17 PM
No, you can’t really control a regular rocket. Its more likely they were either looking for a secluded field where they could fire them illegally, or a GPS tracker to find downed rockets, because big ones can really go far, even with a really light wind.
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:17 PM
More likely is that the GPS would be used to track how far the rocket went. Take a bearing at the lauch site, and another when you finally find your rocket.
bnelson44 on August 6, 2007 at 3:19 PM
If nobody has told them this before, welcome to South Carolina!
Although Muslims are moving into our state in increasing numbers, most of them seem to be friendly and harmless.
That aside, I wonder what CAIR is saying about all of this?
Note: If anyone had a rocket and an “excuse,” I would be somewhat worried (whether they were white/black/yellow/blue).
Darnell Clayton on August 6, 2007 at 3:20 PM
Allahpundit on August 6, 2007 at 3:14 PM
Here’s the thing though AP the model rocketry industry is a regulated industry, you cant just fire off any old model rocket anywhere you want. Once the rocket in question has the capacity to reach a certain altitude, 300 feet if memory serves correctly then the Fed is quite restrictive about where you can launch them. Wouldn’t want Joe Sixpack accidentally shooting down a passing aircraft you know. Oh and its been this way since long before 9/11.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 3:20 PM
GPS and Google Maps give range and bearing. Dialing in could have already been done somewhere. Like the IRA and home made mortars.
TunaTalon on August 6, 2007 at 3:21 PM
Yeah, that’s right, thanks for reminding me. You usually have to be with a Rocketry club (NAR usually, I think) and be OK’d to make and launch large rockets, it would be easy to check. Of course this makes me think that whatever they were launching they were doing so illegally, because most big rockets are launched at rocket club meets where the FAA has cleared the launch zone, and there are strict regulations about wind and rockets.
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:21 PM
A simpler explanation for a GPS unit is for driving/navigation for a road trip. Y’know .. Microsoft Streets, TomTom.
IreneFingIrene on August 6, 2007 at 3:25 PM
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:21 PM
Yup, and personally I really cant think of much that is stupider then being a Muslim non American illegally firing off a model rocket in the United States, can you say “Go directly to jail, do not pass go do not collect $200.00?”
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 3:26 PM
Hmmm. From the description, the term “home made mortar” comes to mind, as does the term “home made Qassam-2 Katyusha.”
I doubt very much that this was a simple “amateur rocketry” they were up to.
Let’s see. If I read it right, in Iraq, they set up multiple mortar tubes by lashing them together and sequencing the fuses. Attach a cell phone for remote detonation, and after they clear the area, make the call.
I wonder if the laptop contains any ballistic calculation software?
Now, I also wonder why two Florida residents would find the need to drive all the way to South Carolina to induldge their sport of amateur rocketery? Hmmm….
georgej on August 6, 2007 at 3:27 PM
I used to be into model rocketry a long time ago as well. Model rocket engines (commercially made) are a class C explosive. Years ago I used to put those engines in my carry on luggage. I only got questioned about them once. I wouldn’t dare try that now. National Association Rules. Note rule 7. Also note rule 10. Any evidence of parachutes? If they were going to make their own rocket fuel they are trouble on that alone. Using pvc pipe as a body would be illegal as well. A gps unit is useless for rocketry unless they were trying to figure out a way to use one as a guidance system or to compute targeting information. Also illegal. Trac cellular phones as you know are used to set off IEDs in Iraq. Put them all together and it looks like they caught some bad guys. I’m thinking they were going to build and preposition some rockets and fire them with the trac phones from a safe distance.
Guardian on August 6, 2007 at 3:30 PM
Guardian on August 6, 2007 at 3:30 PM
Yea, thats kind of the feeling that I got as well and to that the fact that they were according to the article
And all I can see is an attempted terrorist attack.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 3:37 PM
“GPS unit?”
Without knowing anything more than that, I’m willing to give them a pass on that one. Well, unless you want to put Garmin out of business permanently, that is.
I mean, ferchrissakes, they’re advertising their little talking car roadmap/directions devices all over the place these days and yes, they too would be called “GPS units.”
Just saying, is all.
Misha I on August 6, 2007 at 3:38 PM
I wanna know how they got the propellant. You have to buy a license to get it.
Bad Candy on August 6, 2007 at 3:39 PM
IreneFingIrene wrote: “A simpler explanation for a GPS unit is for driving/navigation for a road trip. Y’know .. Microsoft Streets, TomTom.”
Yep. Just the perfect tool to route them from Florida to a point just outside the Naval Weapons Station, say at the intersections of two streets adjacent to a nearby park or field.
BTW, I’ve named my Magellan GPS unit “Stupid” because it couldn’t seem to find the Florida Mall in Orlando that was preprogrammed into it’s database. Using it is kind of like asking a stranger for directions — except that strangers usually don’t deliberately lie to you. ;^)
georgej on August 6, 2007 at 3:40 PM
wonder if the article is 100% accurate. Potassium Nitrate and Sugar make some cool smoke bombs and if encased in a tubing can be used as a simple rocket engine. If the chemicals are seperated and not mixed, they are relatively harmless. http://www.unitednuclear.com has some fun science experiments you can do with them too
offroadaz on August 6, 2007 at 3:41 PM
It’s not “South Florida University,” but “The University of South Florida” in Tampa.
The same university where Sami al Arian was a professor.
Coincidence? I hope so.
SWLiP on August 6, 2007 at 3:43 PM
time to get out the waterboards
frreal on August 6, 2007 at 3:47 PM
So they couldn’t find any isolated open fields in Florida? (They were from FL. IIRC.) They had to drive all the way up to S.C.? Wow, Florida must have really got overbuilt lately.
I think the press is trying to paint this as a “nuthin’ to see, folks… Move along” thing.
But you have to admit, their actions are suspicious as all get out.
My daughter and I launch small rockets in a nearby hayfield all the time. It is a fun hobby. But these guys don’t seem to be, uh, hobbyists.
Nonblonde on August 6, 2007 at 3:47 PM
The Florida Mall is not that hard to find without a GPS. It’s at the intersection of two fairly major roads, both with excellent Interstate access.
Point taken about the database, though. Remember…throughout 90% of his voyage, Magellan had no idea where he was going, either.
James on August 6, 2007 at 3:49 PM
GPS can also be used for calibrating altimeters, I would think.
FloatingRock on August 6, 2007 at 3:49 PM
A simpler explanation for a GPS unit is for driving/navigation for a road trip. Y’know .. Microsoft Streets, TomTom.IreneFingIrene on August 6, 2007 at 3:25 PM
Possible, but as doriangrey pointed out, the little darlins should then have known how close they were to a U.S. Navy Weapons Station, and with all that “stuff” in the car.
Morons? Terrorist wannabees? After Glasgow, it’s hard to tell the difference.
Nichevo on August 6, 2007 at 3:49 PM
Aggh! The strikeout should be a quote on the above post.
Nichevo on August 6, 2007 at 3:50 PM
Nichevo on August 6, 2007 at 3:49 PM
Calling them morons might be giving them just a little to much credit, come on now, just how stupid do you have to be to not understand after 9/11 that being
1) Arab,
2) Non Citizens
3) Muslims
4) in possession of explosives
5) near a US military weapons facility
6) preparing to conduct illegal rocketry experiments
Is going to get you into a world of welcome to federal pound me in the a$$ hello bubba hurt?
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 3:56 PM
The Tampa area is becoming somewhat notorious for Islamic extremism btw. We’ve had a few suspicious incidents down here in the last few years, and have more than a few unsavory characters spreading their usual bile.
RW Wacko on August 6, 2007 at 4:00 PM
Model rockets are going to be greatly at the mercy of the winds. It is almost impossible to get one to land exactly where you want it to unless you know the winds aloft along the flight profile. Winds even as low as 100 feet can be quite different than what they are at the surface. Did these guys also have any weather balloons or kites?
About the best one can do with these things is put them into a general area … like somewhere within the city limits of a town. If I know the winds aloft and a desired target location and the nominal range of the rocket I can, with a map, select a desired launching point and use GPS to get me to that point.
While I wouldn’t say they were doing anything nefarious AT THAT MOMENT, they could have been practicing delivering a rocket to a general location. This might be useful if they are delivering a future “dirty” payload such as americium from smoke detectors or something that wouldn’t really hurt anyone but would panic the hell out of of a lot of people. The notion being that with enough “innocent” tests they could eventually get good enough to deliver a payload within a general location as large as a town with reasonable certainty of success.
But then again, maybe they just enjoyed playing with rockets. That laptop might tell the difference.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 4:03 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 4:03 PM
See my post…doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 3:56 PM…
Right next to a Naval Weapons Facility…Err, yea right…
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 4:08 PM
The only way to be sure is to have Jack Bauer question them both.
I know Jack Bauer is just a TV character but you have to believe we have a few Jack Bauers in the shadows {not the same shadows as the illegals}
Before CAIR and the ACLU start there bs again.
Mojack420 on August 6, 2007 at 4:16 PM
Maybe we should have a deportation category of “too stupid to live/study in the U.S.?” I’d rather see them returned to Egypt, with an addition on the “no fly” list, than spend the money on trying and jailing them, if the FBI can’t come up with any links to something more insidious.
On the more serious side, wannabee Jihadis all have big plans, as do their handlers, but, except for the random lone gunmen here, and IED’s and kidnappings in Iraq, they don’t seem to have the intellectual tools to bring them to a successful conclusion. I guess that’s why they keep hoping to replicate 9/11, when their success was more a result of our stupidity than their cleverness.
Nichevo on August 6, 2007 at 4:23 PM
Off-topic but my brother, in his younger days, used to deliberately give Canadians ‘wrong’ directions which would lead them to some distant area of the county if, for example they asked directions to Bellingham Mall or K-mart (Washington state)….
CrazyFool on August 6, 2007 at 4:25 PM
And I supose they were going to aim at “model” people and buildinigs. This story stinks.
bloggless on August 6, 2007 at 4:26 PM
“About the best one can do with these things is put them into a general area”
That would be “close enough” if it struck a weapon’s storeage area and caused secondary explosions. Even if it landed harmlessly (the most likely result, the base is awfully big after all), the PROPAGANDA value would be immeasurable. “The Great Satan’s big military bases in the USA are now strikable targets by our heroic Jehadis.”
And, if they got away with it, they’d have an opportunity to try again.
For those who are interested, the Qasssam is a “homemade” rocket fueled by a mixture of potassium nitrate and sugar. It’s range is 2.8 miles and can carry an explosive warhead. It’s made by Palestinian terrorists, was invented by Hamas, and has been used against Isreal.
See the picture at http://www.weaponsurvey.com/graphics/qassam.jpg
I think these two were attempting an act of terrorism. No doubt the MSM will say otherwise; they wouldn’t want to vindicate any of Bush’s policies under any circumstances. Both the FBI and DHS have an interest in going along.
georgej on August 6, 2007 at 4:27 PM
This could be a setup by CAIR.
Maybe Flying Imams Part 2.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 4:40 PM
Maybe the “death to all infidels” and the Allah Akkbar written on the side of the rockets were a clue.
right2bright on August 6, 2007 at 4:41 PM
Question:
Since our Rocket Brigade must have seen the cop driving behind them for some time, then pulled over, then the cop slowly walked up to the vehicle. Why were they still looking at their laptop? Porn or madly deleting something?
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 4:42 PM
right2bright on August 6, 2007 at 4:41 PM
LOL
Let’s start guessing names.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 4:43 PM
Fired striaght up, yes. But not so much if fired on a more horizontal trajectory. A laptop would be useful for computing trajectories, and a gps would be great for figuring your distance to target.
TexasDan on August 6, 2007 at 4:44 PM
Maybe the Rocket Brigade had been dropping off CAIR packages at certain points on the map.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 4:46 PM
“Right next to a Naval Weapons Facility…Err, yea right…”
They weren’t doing anything but driving. It isn’t like they were set up and ready to shoot anything there. They might have been headed someplace else and just happened to get pulled over there for speeding. Have any of the reports said which road they were on? Interstate 26 from Charleston SC passes pretty darned close to that naval installation. I mean, without any more details, it might be a bit much to read a whole lot into this. It could be that they were speeding up the Interstate and that was where they happened to be pulled over. One passes many such military installations along the interstate highway system.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 4:46 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 4:46 PM
I think they were headed West (away from) on a road that only goes to the naval base. They were 7 or so miles from the base I think.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 4:49 PM
georgej on August 6, 2007 at 4:27 PM
Now isn’t that coincidental, these guys were Egyptian nationals, Egypt just happens to share a border with the Gaza Strip, Palestinians make Qasssam, Qasssam rockets use exactly the same materials that these guys were found to be in possession of…
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 4:53 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 4:46 PM
Helloieeee……..They started in FLORIDA…………Drove a thousand miles got within seven miles of a Naval Weapons Facility and were stopped with what basically amounts to a unassembled Qasssam rocket, and just for general information Qasssam rockets have a range of between 3 and 10 kilometers and a warhead between 1 and 20 pounds. In other words, these guys were stopped well within range of a Naval Weapons Facility with a fucking Qasssam rocket.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 5:00 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 4:46 PM
Helloieeee……..They started in FLORIDA…………Drove a thousand miles got within seven miles of a Naval Weapons Facility and were stopped with what basically amounts to a unassembled Qasssam rocket, and just for general information Qasssam rockets have a range of between 3 and 10 kilometers and a warhead between 1 and 20 pounds. In other words, these guys were stopped well within range of a Naval Weapons Facility with a f#$king Qasssam rocket.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 5:02 PM
“I think they were headed West (away from) on a road that only goes to the naval base. They were 7 or so miles from the base I think.”
7 miles from the base and headed West might have put them on I26. There is only one road I can find that goes “only” to the base and that would be Red Bank Road. 7 miles up Red Bank Road would put them past the town of Goose Creek headed away.
The more I dig into this, the less alarming it seems at this point. They got popped for speeding which means they were moving, not setting up to practice or do anything at that location. Without some more detailed information, I don’t see anything other than people speculating because of what is nearby to where they were stopped.
I wouldn’t rule anything out but until there is some more detail, I wouldn’t read too much into it. Also, that GPS unit, if it happened to be turned on, might even have recorded where they had recently been. It could even be that the guys were lost. My GPS has maps. I have gone off the freeway before to get a bite to eat at a town a few miles off the interstate and got turned around and found myself going the wrong way to get back to the freeway.
Seven miles from the installation is a pretty good distance when you look at it on a map.
Link to map.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 5:14 PM
This is the picture taken of the fun loving guys with their rockets.
Here
/sarc
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 5:16 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 5:14 PM
In other words, these guys were stopped well within range of a Naval Weapons Facility with a f#$king Qasssam rocket.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 5:19 PM
crosspatch, they were stopped near Myers Road on Highway 176 about 7 miles from the base.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 5:25 PM
Okay, that would be on the other side of Goose Creek from the base and they were headed away, towards US 17, which is pretty much the east coast’s scenic coast hiway (sort of like the Pacific Coast Highway on the West coast). That would put them Northwest of Goose Creek headed Northwest.
Also, I seem to remember South Carolina being a pretty popular place to buy fireworks when I was a kid, but I haven’t been there recently. When I would make the trip home when I was in the Army, I would stop in SC and buy fireworks.
I thought this was kind of interesting:
“Lombard would not say what the device was or what bomb technicians from neighboring Charleston County exploded about 2:45 a.m. Sunday. The item made a loud bang, similar to a firecracker, when it was demolished.”
That kind of brings to mind an incident concerning someone I once knew when he was in the Army being summoned from his sleep by the military police to his car in the parking lot. The police thought they had nailed him with “contraband” and shined a flashlight onto the front seat though the window demanding to know what that thing was on the seat. They claimed it was a “joint”. My friend had been to McDonald’s earlier that evening before he went to bed and replied “it looks like a french fry to me” and sure enough that is exactly what it was. My point is that when people get all “spring loaded” to find something, they can sometimes think they have found it when they haven’t.
Lets just see how this plays out but so far I really don’t see much.
(sarcasm)
All that being said, they are, after all, Muslims, so that must mean they were up to something.
(/sarcasm)
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 5:36 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 5:36 PM
Try switching to the satellite function on that google map you posted and then zooming in on the corner of the base nearest to Goose Creek, you will notice that it is full, as in covered with munitions bunkers. Oh yea, it was just a coincidence that a couple of Arab non US citizen Muslims were caught within range of that place with a bomb and an unassembled Qassam Rocket. Yea, they were just innocent rocket enthusiast who got lost.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 6:04 PM
I don’t disagree with that, but they were 7 miles away and heading in the opposite direction and they were driving. In other words, there is no indication so far that they had been doing anything at the base other than driving on a road that passes near it. That Interstate is the main route out of Charleston. US 17 is, as I said the main scenic Eastern coastal highway. They were headed towards 17. So far nothing has been reported by authorities stating that they were doing anything wrong, yet. I “have” seen posted here things which are not true such as “they were arrested next to the base on a road that only goes to the base”. The highway they were stopped on goes between US 17 and the town of Goose Creek. The base is on the Southeastern side of the town, they were on the Northwestern side and headed away.
I am *not* saying that they didn’t do something wrong. What I *am* saying is that I see a lot of people building mountains here. It isn’t helpful. If it turns out that they were doing something completely harmless, it is going to work to the benefit of the extremists to overplay this. Playing with model rockets isn’t a crime and neither is building your own. Until we know otherwise, it might be a benefit to everyone to calm down a little and wait until all the facts are out instead of jumping to conclusions.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 6:21 PM
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 6:21 PM
For gods sake how do you make a mountain out of the indisputable facts in this case?
1) They were not American citizens
2) They were Arabs
3) They were Muslims
4) They had a bomb
5) They had a Qassam rocket
6) They drove 1000 miles or more
7) They were stopped within Qassam rocket range of a Naval Weapons Facility
8) at the absolute minimum they were going to launch an illegal rocket.
Even if these guys are not terrorists, which the indisputable evidence very heavily suggests, they are guilty of criminal stupidity at the very minimum.
doriangrey on August 6, 2007 at 6:28 PM
Allah, I can’t believe you only place “unknown substance” in bold…. I know you went on to talk about the laptop and GPS… but what about the Trac phones? Am I the only one who remembers Muslims being caught buying hundreds or thousands of these things for what could have been a variety of uses, from staying untraceable to detonation devices, to raising terror funds?
RightWinged on August 6, 2007 at 6:37 PM
JIHAD!
Gregor on August 6, 2007 at 6:59 PM
You really need to read some of the earlier posts, from posters more knowlegeable than you or I, on the model rockets, the possible size judging from the materials found, and the laws pertaining to their launch in the U.S.
Unless you’re suggesting they were driving around with this stuff in their car but had no intention of launching them (which is rather ludicrous), then they are not entirely “innocent,” and neither would my kid or anyone else’s be in a similar situation.
OK, maybe they’re not terrorists — that opinion also exists on this thread — but local LE and FBI agents don’t press felony charges if there were no laws broken; and, of course, ignorance of the law is not a defense.
Nichevo on August 6, 2007 at 7:07 PM
I’m off to check out updates, but here’s what I found interesting in an article overnight:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/05/highway.closed/index.html?section=cnn_latest
First, why the disagreement between feds and local law enforcement? I tend to go with local in this case, and I feel vindicated in light of Allah’s “pipe bomb” update.
But I find it very interesting that we may also have an immigration angle here.
RightWinged on August 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM
No, no, you all don’t understand.
As of now:
You see? Ahmed Abda Sherf Mohamed, and Yousef Samir Megahed, found with pipe bombs in their car near a navy base but, no way to tell if there is any terrorism connection. That’s right folks, Ahmed Abda Sherf Mohamed and Yousef Samir Megahed + pipe bombs = what? No obvious connection there!
AntonK on August 6, 2007 at 7:21 PM
The blotter? No thanks.
This another toe in the security waters. Guaranteed. Dang methodists. Rosie was right.
locomotivebreath1901 on August 6, 2007 at 7:25 PM
Of course.
On the model rocketry angle, they’d probably have some other parts to support the alibi. PVC isn’t a very good rocket tube. It is heavy and if you have a “catastrophic failure” the shards will be small, sharp, and hard to find on an X-Ray.
Of course.
desertdweller on August 6, 2007 at 7:28 PM
I am just afraid this is a setup to cause law enforcement to overreact and in the future be less likely to look closely into people who might come under suspicion later. Sort of like a “flying mullah’s” scam against law enforcement.
The only reason anyone would use PVC for a pipe bomb is to get it past a metal detector. It wouldn’t be all that effective as the pipe would probably rupture before the explosive was completely burned. If they were capped, I would say pipe bomb. If they weren’t, I would say rocket tube. PVC is pretty common material for home brew rocket builders and a home made rocket tube would sure look like a pipe bomb to someone who didn’t know any different.
But be careful, I smell the cops being set up here.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 7:30 PM
“On the model rocketry angle, they’d probably have some other parts to support the alibi.”
They did. They had two hobby store launchers and other hobby store parts including fuses. They had pretty much all the stuff anyone playing with rockets would have.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 7:32 PM
If you save google earth of the area, you can use the cursor to determine the coordinates of any location, including the one on your GPS transponder. Using the ruler you can determine straight line distances between points. I’d go with some calcs to determine range; these guys appear to have the brains cells … oops … check school grades, first.
I suppose that could be a convenient way of finding firing locations to target locations that have good firing location geography, i.e., open in the proper direction, screened from view, easily, accessible, etc.
What is retarded is that it doesn’t sound like they are materially prep’d and ready for launch, if that is what they planned. All the launch and target site prep should have been done previously so that one would already have pushpins in google map for the locations and just travel to them. If that was what they were doing, then why carry about the materials?
I still stuck with the 3rd word of the 3rd ‘graph as the operative word here without additional information.
Dusty on August 6, 2007 at 7:37 PM
Just as a quick check, I did a search on google for
pvc+rocket and the first link was this:
http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/pvcmot4.html
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 7:38 PM
The rocket itself isn’t that big a deal. It would need a warhead and THAT is prohibited in model rocketry. Also using anything except a light weight tube is dangerous and your rocket must have a recovery system of some sort. When I was into this you needed a streamer or a parachute. And unless you have designed a rocket with fins that can move, GPS is worthless.
csdeven on August 6, 2007 at 7:40 PM
By the way, those PVC rocket motors I posted the link to above not only look just like pipe bombs, I think you will find the propellant mixture listed is pretty much exactly the same chemicals they were found with.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 7:40 PM
PVC is a highly unusual rocket component. Other tubular material makes for better body tubes.
The PD will have experts who know about the rate of burn of the other materials, which will blow the lid (so to speak) off the rocketry alibi if bogus.
desertdweller on August 6, 2007 at 7:41 PM
I’m not sure what the explosives were doing in the car.
It seems to me it was first said they took a car from where(?) Florida(?) not knowing the stuff was in the back. And now it’s that they were shopping for fireworks related stuff for model rocketry?
Or was it the other way around. Or are both concurrent info from two different sources?
Dusty on August 6, 2007 at 7:44 PM
It is NOT a highly unusual rocket component, it is a very common one. I have several friends to go out to the Blackrock desert ever year and shoot rockets. PVC, according to the discussion currently on their mailing list is extremely common to the point of being the favorite casing for people who make their own motors.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 7:44 PM
The “explosives” that were found are typical of the ones used in home brew rocket motors, guys. Geez.
crosspatch on August 6, 2007 at 7:45 PM
I’ve remained cautious on this thing since the beginning, but for all those trying to say it looks like an overreaction and that these are just rocket parts, I’d ask you why some law enforcement have been quoted as saying they found a “bomb”, why the guys are being held, and charged? I’m still not making any conclusions, but everyone seems so rushed to say “it’s nothing, just rocket nerds”.
RightWinged on August 6, 2007 at 8:11 PM
Either way we deport them:
If they were to fire a rocket and “bomb” a military institution, jail them and then deport them.
If they were so stupid as to be driving down a road 7 miles from a military institution, Arab names, immigrants, with something that would be construed as a bomb or rocket…they are to stupid to keep here in the U.S. Deport them for incredible stupidity.
Immigration Law (as it should be)
Sec.8 para a.
Deportation of a stupid alien is encouraged and expected.
right2bright on August 6, 2007 at 8:26 PM
I’m sure these 2 are just a couple of happy-go-lucky, young Middle Eastern males who love packing PVC pipes with explosive mixtures so that they can see if they’ll fly like rockets.
I’ve no doubt at all…
AntonK on August 6, 2007 at 8:27 PM
If they were up to something, what would it be? The homemade rockets wouldn’t be enough to penetrate a weapons locker and there are plenty of bases in FL eligible for attack, especially if mass casualties was the goal.
hulbstar on August 6, 2007 at 8:28 PM
Rocket motors can look a lot like pipe bombs. From the link posted above
http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/knight2/motors.jpg
bnelson44 on August 6, 2007 at 8:36 PM
From Free Republic:
Just got this update (e-mail/www.disasterhelp.gov – registration required) from Homeland Security. here is what they found:
A box of potassium Nitrate
A pound of sugar
A gallon of gasoline
4 model rocket launchers
4 model rocket electrical ignitors
several lengths of PVC pipe including one stuffed with the potassiun nitrate/sugar mixture
bnelson44 on August 6, 2007 at 8:45 PM
potassium chlorate and sugar is commonly used in a science classroom experiments for creating instant fire
http://www.angelo.edu/faculty/kboudrea/demos/instant_fire/instant_fire.htm
it makes a cool purple smoke and flame. Could be used in ground based fireworks shows
offroadaz on August 6, 2007 at 8:49 PM
I think that the “possible immigration charges” will quite likely mean that one or both are visa overstays or the FEDs can’t find legal entry documentation.
For those who believe that a rocket needs movable fins to be effective then I guess you also believe that all those rockets launched into Israel are the product of Hezbollah and PAL model rocket enthusiast since they aren’t guided and are only launched in the general direction of an Israeli city at a preset distance.
Terror often has more to do with symbolic attacks as opposed to huge explosive results. Even a unarmed rocket striking a US military base here in the homeland would be a huge victory in their minds.
Buzzy on August 6, 2007 at 8:54 PM
I am leaning toward a CAIR setup with the latest info. Sounds more like Flying Imams Part 2 now.
They put harmless rocket motors (which look like pipe bombs) in their trunk, then start speeding, then look suspicious with a laptop, then give vague answers to the cops.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 9:37 PM
What would the gasoline be used for?
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 9:39 PM
The car?
bnelson44 on August 6, 2007 at 10:08 PM
When was the last weekend trip you made and you took a can of gas with you?
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 10:09 PM
More “facts” from Ahmed Bedier of CAIR. He says our Rocket Brigade left on Friday at midnight for a trip to the Carolinas. They wanted to save money on hotels so they drove thru the night. The trip from Tampa to Goose Creek is 7 hours and they had been gone 18 hours.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Interesting article about a low-level pipe bomb in July at Disney World in Florida.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 10:31 PM
Apparently PVC pipe bombs are fun at YouTube.
faraway on August 6, 2007 at 10:44 PM
I’m trying to figure out how I am going to spend the $20 I bet a friend of mine that one of them would be named Mohammed.
wordwarp on August 6, 2007 at 10:55 PM
Lol, in fairness it’s just one of their last names. But I think the same thing every time I hear one of these stories, “I bet one’s name is Mohamed”.
RightWinged on August 7, 2007 at 12:02 AM
Well, from what I have read so far, I have to say “reasonable doubt”.
I agree with ya crosspatch. It’s a lot of circumstantial evidence. Unless they find something on that computer I think they may have a hard time proving their case. Especially after seeing the site with the pvc rocket motors.
When I was a kid we used to fill balloons with oxygen and axcetalene (sp?). We then put them under 5 gallon buckets and lit them off with a trail of gas. Those bucktes would go about 75 feet in the air. These days we would be charged with some explosives crime. Yes, there have been rules around for awhile about rockets and motors and lauching areas and altitudes but, it is possible these guys thought they would be having harmless fun. According to their attorney they were headed to some beach resort for a birthday celebration. Maybe they were going to launch the rockets from the beach. Or, it could be as some have said and they were experimenting with the rockets for a precise attack.
boomer on August 7, 2007 at 12:09 AM
Oh by the way, this immigration angle. Fox news has reported that they are in the country legally. One has a permanent resident status.
boomer on August 7, 2007 at 12:15 AM
Again, I’m not sure why everyone is doubting the word of the cops here so much… I’ve said it’s necessary to remain cautious (and I feel the need to keep saying it before someone flies off the handle and calls me paranoid), but the cops said there were bombs, and that’s a damn bold statement if they aren’t and they will have a hell of a lawsuit on their hands after arresting these guys… and did you see bond the prosecutor asked for? They clearly think there’s something more here than toy rockets.
check out this bit I found from the AP article boomer links to above, via FNC
Again, this isn’t conclusive, but it certainly sounds pretty damning.
And you knew this was coming…
Some surmised that this may be “Flying Imams II”, which after reading that I think is definitely a possibility, but we’ll see.
RightWinged on August 7, 2007 at 12:35 AM
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