They are all stages of the same thing, not a different thing.

nailinmyeye on August 3, 2007 at 1:53 PM

Exactly. A fetus is simply a human at a certain developmental stage just as an infant is a human at a certain developmental stage.

You hit on a point that I have been saying for years.

Men are treated differently than women and in a terrible way

Not just with abortion issues but also with custody and support issues.

we are treated very unfairly.

If a woman gets pregnant from a 1 night stand or a long term relationship she can decide for any reason whatsoever that she doesn’t want the baby and can kill it ( abortion )

Unfortunately we men don’t have a choice.

I love it when they say they have the right to choose.

Why can’t men choose?

And don’t give me the ” it’s her body ” excuse. It’s not her body! It isn’t like they’re taking a lung or a kidney from her body. It is a different body inside her it is not an internal organ that she can’t live without.

I think men should be allowed to decide if they don’t want to be involved in an unwanted pregnancy just as women do after all femenists are all about equal rights usually.

Men have absolutely no say in the matter when it comes to a baby being born or not.

Women can literally kill your child and there is not a thing you can do about it.

Women can also tell you to take a hike and give birth to your baby and expect you to pay them a monthly fee for 18 to 22 yrs. ( college ) if they so desire.

Men and unborn babies don’t have any rights in the politically correct country we live in.

You think it is unknowable when someone becomes a human being, but the entire reason why abortion is legal is because we do know roughly when a fetus does become a human,

Exactly what I was talking about. There is absolutely no point in engaging with Nonfactor, as he already assumes things as fact, that are instead opinion. One’s opinion on when life begins is the hinge of the debate. If he, or anyone, will not allow for discussion on this point, as his comment quoted here shows, then there is no point in furthering the discussion with that person. It is arrogance, pure and simple.

The point is this, no human ever walked on this earth w/out 1st being in utero…..THIS CANNOT BE DENIED PERIOD
We all started in the womb….& as such have a ‘Right to Life!” yes? …..or is it no. Is it the shape & form of the earliest human experience that trips you up?….how about the human vehicle when it is VERY old & wrinkled???

Would YOU be here if your mother had you sucked out in pieces because you were ONLY! in the 1st trimester.
How about we teach our daughters & sons that ‘the Child conceived’ is their BABY & your grandchild!!…what a freakin’concept…..& that if you are not ready to take on the responsibility of another HUMAN LIFE…don’t FK! WOW!..let’s get our hands around this one…
what is to be gained by teaching our teenagers to sacrifice their innocence for pleasures that don’t really need to be reigned in by discipline!?? I mean, what a guilt trip, how religiously freighted!(sarcasm!) & what is to be gained by teaching our Teens that they don’t need to feel ‘guilt’ about destroying the logical consequences of fkng???….after all, it is only a LIFE!! (more sarc).

Why is this country on the verge of being taken over?…..because we murder our unborn w/ impunity….no big deal…..what ever…guilt isn’t very PC you know!

“What you do unto the least, you do unto Me.” The words of the Only Master who gave up His Life to rescue others.

bdog2995 on August 3, 2007 at 10:47 AM

Plus, yarn can become anything, not just a blanket, whereas a fetus can and will only become a human, so long as its brains aren’t sucked out.

Also, if you cut up some yarn, you can still put it back together and make that blanket. If you cut up a fetus, you can’t make another fetus.

What you miss NONINTELLIGENT is so simple it shouldn’t even need to be explained but I will try to do it in a way that a 6 yr old could understand.

If you shred the yarn of course you haven’t destroyed a blanket you have destroyed some yarn.

Here’s the difficult part for you I hope you can understand

If you leave the yarn alone in your knitting basket it will lay there for years and never become a blanket it will just get dusty and dry but if you leave a human fetus alone it will become someone like you unfortunately

This is how stupid your yarn/fetus analogy is.

I know it’s going to be hard but think about it.

Also I’m just curious do you have any children? I’ll bet you don’t!

Could you answer a question for me?

Why is it illegal and punishable by jail time to steal, disturb or molest an eagles egg?

If it is not really an eagle yet what’s the problem?

Thank you in advance for your enlightening answer

But you still think an egg is a chicken? I really need to clarify this to see if debating with you is even worth it. Simply because something might become something else does not mean that it is that thing. Egg yoke is egg yoke (not a chicken), a fetus is a fetus (not living human being so you can stop saying how abortions are “killing” human beings).

We don’t generally eat fertilized eggs. The stuff you buy at a store generally has no papa.

Chicken eggs, the kind we eat, are no more a chicken than one of my eggs that I lose every month, is a person.

You’re making a completely different argument here though, because no one is arguing that an UNfertilized egg is a person. Most of us are arguing that the sperm is what gives it life and its own DNA strand.

And to address the point brought up by several posters, regarding male relatives, associates, friends, etc., who pressure a woman to get an abortion, *BAM*, right to prison they go to.

grids7 on August 2, 2007 at 9:32 PM

Too? I would think even in your world where the women get to jail that you’d make an exception when the woman is forced into something. I know I wouldn’t want Mrs. Jones in jail if she was there at the meeting to have her husband killed but actively tried to stop it.

I’ve explained my position through logic and reason.

Nonfactor on August 3, 2007 at 12:46 AM

Except you never responded to those of us who question your reasoning. I called bs on your claim that a human is only human if it can survive without a machine and made a few examples.

Your definition is so restricted as to fit your personal ideas and potentially flexible to fit with the changing times.

When we’re sick of putting scared prom teens in jail for throwing away their babies because they waited too long to kill it before it was born, we’ll move the bar back even further.

That’s funny. Care to explain any part of that?

Christoph on August 2, 2007 at 6:53 PM

You and I already had that exact same discussion. My position hasn’t changed in the slightest.

Prison time might deter a woman from having an abortion. A huge fine might deter her as well.

But putting her in a jail cell will not keep her from ending the life of her unborn child.

We can separate murderers from their intended victims by locking them up. We cannot do the same with women who intend to have an abortion. It is physically impossible.

And secondly it asks the question of why it is immoral to kill a person (for example Aristotle thought it was wrong to kill beings that could ask and answer moral questions).

So killing of the stupid and morally inept is no big deal. Well, maybe he was onto something…

Why do you think that’s rational? If you cut open a pregnant woman two days before birth the fetus will most likely be able to survive. If you cut open a pregnant woman 8 months before birth the fetus will most definitely not survive. And then there is the idea of miscarriages. Are those just God’s way of killing off babies he doesn’t like?

Yeah, just like people who die of old age, disease and ever other imaginable way are God’s rejects as well. Death happens. We accept that as mortals.

That doesn’t mean we’re cool with making it happen to another person. That’s a huge leap to make, going from saying that things die to saying that it’s therefore OK to kill them.

So if there were no doubt that a fetus didn’t become a homo sapien baby until the middle of the third trimester you’d be in favor of abortion?

Yeah, actually, most of us would be cool with that. We get that an egg that hasn’t yet met its sperm is not a dying child when it goes out of our bodies every month and that each tiny sperm by itself is not a person either. So we have no problem trying to advance medicine to a state where every egg and every sperm can be saved.

But when something is growing, eating, moving and has its own heartbeat, well, you’re hard pressed to prove it isn’t life. And according to the dictionary’s definition of life, it is life when it can do those things.

After all, we seem to agree that women whom you haven’t been able to guilt trip suffer no bad effects from an abortion.

thuja on August 2, 2007 at 9:27 PM

You seem to be willfully ignorant of a few things. The breast cancer thing is something doctors simply do not understand. They don’t know if its hereditary or what. Some even believed, for a time but not now, that birth control can cause breast cancer.

They just didn’t know.

But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t physical side effects that women suffer from an abortion. Women suffer negative side effects from a miscarriage.

Women’s bodies were meant to have babies. Disrupting the body while it is in the middle of that process leads to physical consequences. It’s simple truth. One that women are hopefully prepared to deal with if they decide to end their pregnancy.

thuja on August 3, 2007 at 12:48 AM

EVIL IS AS EVIL DOES.

he has been grilling us for an extended period of time asking for our reasoning about when people become human and when asked the simple, logical, same question himself… refuses to answer it and goes on deflection.

Wow, did you just ignore my post at 5:53 PM? I know it was long and everything, but damn!

The man is dishonest, a scoundrel, and I wouldn’t be caught dead shaking his hand.

Christoph on August 3, 2007 at 1:11 AM

Again. I know you won’t offer up any proof as to why a fertilized egg is a human being. I know you can’t prove it. I know you can’t use any examples in nature to fortify your opinion. I know you’ve been weaseling your way around this question for an entire day. And I love it. You can’t even logically defend yourself. You are a dishonest, oppressive, two-faced, callous, pathetic excuse for a human being.

You make my point about people who are nominally pro-choice, then are confronted with it, and their decency speaks up.

burnitup, regarding Nonfactor and thuja, is there any point in debating with such evil people?

They are who they are.

And Nonfactor is blatantly dishonest… he has been grilling us for an extended period of time asking for our reasoning about when people become human and when asked the simple, logical, same question himself… refuses to answer it and goes on deflection.

The man is dishonest, a scoundrel, and I wouldn’t be caught dead shaking his hand.

“I too have known women who have had abortions, but they say they never think about. When I’ve told them about the Post-Abortion Syndrome, they say they have more important things to think about.” thuja on August 2, 2007 at 4:27 PM

no…these are not women…they are the walking dead. To be this cavalier about having had YOUR OWN BABY sucked out of your own womb in pieces W/ NO reflection! Where is the adult that was not a child carried in the womb?? Our own mothers allowed us to live & so we can type on this issue tonight….but where are the voices of the murdered Unborn to tell their side?? Any woman who says abortion isn’t murder is either insane or a lier.

No these are perfectly normal women. Their views are healthy. That you want to twist them around and f*** them over with the guilt you want to impose on them is why you are an evil human being.

Christoph on August 2, 2007 at 11:58 PM

burnitup on August 3, 2007 at 12:01 AM

I’ve explained my position through logic and reason. I haven’t had to use equals signs to make my point. Both of you have still not proven a fetus to be a baby. You’ve simply claimed it (and while this may work in your sewing circles where you don’t have anyone to argue with) and hoped nobody would call you out. Let me repeat something I said earlier: You can’t do it. I know you can’t do it. But I like to see you try and worm your way around the question. Let me use one more analogy seeing as how burnitup completely destroyed my chicken example with his “No you have eaten a dead chicken” response. If you shred yarn you haven’t destroyed a blanket, you’ve simply cut up some yarn. People like you guys are claiming that a blankets life starts when you make your first weave, I’m claiming it starts when it’s at least three feet long. My decision is based in reality via chicken eggs, seeds, et cetera. Your decision is based on emotion because you can’t bear to see yarn cut up.

And to finish this post let me repeat my thoughts on you guys proving a fetus was is a human child: You can’t do it. I know you can’t do it. But I like to see you try and worm your way around the question.

I had been very lukewarm on the subject, probably falling over the line of personal choice for someone else but never for me and mine. What I saw that day was little dead babies and from that moment on abortion has equaled murder in my mind. A crime committed on the absolutely most innocent and defenseless of all.

I don’t do pro life marches or get radical on the issue but then again I don’t vote for folks who support killing little unborn babies either.

no…these are not women…they are the walking dead. To be this cavalier about having had YOUR OWN BABY sucked out of your own womb in pieces W/ NO reflection! Where is the adult that was not a child carried in the womb?? Our own mothers allowed us to live & so we can type on this issue tonight….but where are the voices of the murdered Unborn to tell their side?? Any woman who says abortion isn’t murder is either insane or a lier.

So you believe something is a member of a certain species if it has certain DNA? Simply because a fetus has human DNA does not make it a human baby, it makes it a human fetus.

Err… so the membership card is mailed out upon birth? Or some other arbitrary date?
Again there genius what are some stages of human life? Fetal, infancy, etc.

What species would a human fetus be a member of? Hint: it’s in the question. BTW.. way to sidestep the chromosome issue.

The egg might become a chicken, but eating that egg does not constitute chopping the head off of a live chicken

No you have eaten a dead chicken.

You have neither denied that a fetus is made up of human genetic material or that it is alive. Congrats.

Way to pu$$y out with Godwin’s Law.

However, Godwin’s Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent’s argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin’s law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[7]

It is quite valid to draw comparisons to the Nazi view of who they saw as “less-than-human” and abortionists views on the non-humanness of fetus. And accorded both with mass murder.

In the womb?

Out?

How long outside? Or inside?

Explain it to me.

One Fetus = One Human Being

It’s so easy when you just say things.

God = doesn’t exist.

Wow, it is easy. And it feels so good.

I guess forcing a killer to refrain from murder is punishment to the killer.

It’s so easy when you just say things… Asking someone like you to prove abortion is murder is like asking someone to prove their God exists. You can’t do it. I know you can’t do it. But I like to see you try and worm your way around the question. Except in this debate, unlike the God one, there is solid evidence in nature showing that simply because something may become something does not mean that the original thing is the end thing (egg yoke =/= chicken; egg yoke = egg yoke).

Except for the fact that they all said basically said the same exact thing and were pretending that forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy she doesn’t want isn’t punishment.

I guess forcing a killer to refrain from murder is punishment to the killer.

It’s gotta suck. I feel their pain.

Of course, that’s WORSE than the punishment of having your life ended as the victim of murder.

It has brief comments from about 17 people. They have some thoughtful and insightful things to say. It is excellent.

Except for the fact that they all said basically said the same exact thing and were pretending that forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy she doesn’t want isn’t punishment.