Hot Air Mobile
Home The Vault Gear About
Hot Air -- get your fill


Breaking: Horrific bridge collapse in Minneapolis; Update: Steel failure? Update: Seven dead?

posted at 7:56 pm on August 1, 2007 by Allahpundit
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

I’ve got nothing yet but photos, but there’s not much more to add. Estimates are 20-30 injured, eight cars and possibly one truck in the water. Standby for updates.

bridge004.jpg

bridge002.jpg

bridge1.jpg

Update: It happened a little after six, in the heart of rush hour. The Strib:

Ramon Houge of St. Paul, was on his way home from work at Wells Fargo and was driving on the bridge when heard a rumbling noise, saw the ground collapse and cars go down. He said cars backed up as best they could and he parked in a construction zone and was finally able to turn around and drive off the bridge. “It didn’t seem like it was real,” he said. Traffic was bumper to bumper and hundreds of people would have been involved, he said, adding that he saw kids on a bus with blood on their faces.

Sarah Fahnhorst, who lives in an apartment a block away from the bridge, heard a huge thud and then “the entire building shook. It shook the ground.”

Update: Two more screencaps.

bridge005.jpg

bridge006.jpg

Update: No word yet on a cause but Dan Riehl points to a story about “concrete rehabilitation” work that was being done on the bridge.

Update: Reader Pete L. send this shot, which he says was taken by a friend passing by on his Blackberry.

img01020.jpg

Update: Your quote of the day: “I thought it was just construction going on … it was a free fall all the way to the ground.”

Update: Oddly, enough the Times of London has the first report of fatalities. At least two dead.

Update: “According to reports from the scene, crews on the Mississippi River are no longer in rescue mode but recovery mode.” According to NBC, every last ambulance in Minneapolis has been ordered to the scene. NBC also says that work along that stretch of the bridge has been going on all summer.

Update: Three dead, at least, says CNN.

Update: Hmmm:

Bumper to bumper traffic and road construction were slowing things down and all of the sudden the bridge collapsed said a man who was in that traffic around 6:00.

That motorist told Joe Fryer that there was shaking from jack hammer and then the bridge just dropped.

Update: “According to a structural engineer who spoke with WCCO-TV’s Don Shelby, it doesn’t appear to be a concrete failure but that the steel failed.” A former NTSB commissioner is telling Sean Hannity as I write this that he’s surprised the bridge hasn’t been inspected since 2004. WCCO has now updated to say that while work has been going on for the past nine months to repair potholes and concrete, there’s been no work on the structure under the bridge.

Update: The Strib reports that no fewer than 50 cars are estimated as being in the river or on the land below the bridge.

Update: Another photo from Pete L. That used to be a train car.

img01012.jpg

Update: The Times, by way of CNN, says one of the cops on the scene saw at least seven bodies. Also, interesting:

A 2001 evaluation of the bridge, prepared for the state transportation department by the University of Minnesota Civil Engineering Department, reported that there were preliminary signs of fatigue on the steel truss section under the roadway, but no cracking. It said there was no need for the transportation department to replace the bridge because of fatigue cracking.

Update: WCCO’s got a crack page of rolling updates here. To coin a phrase, just keep scrolling.


Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

Traffic jam on the bridge. Overweight?

BacaDog on August 1, 2007 at 9:42 PM

They are suppose to be built to take bumper to bumper traffic even during an earthquake.

Maxx on August 1, 2007 at 9:55 PM

Professor Blather on August 1, 2007 at 9:44 PM

Think about this for a second. 30-40 years ago was a lifetime ago. The country was very different. The needs were different and therefore the engineering was different. Be it bridge collapses or black outs. We need to invest in our country not just give the tax money away for votes.

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 9:56 PM

Not trying to be morbid….but I can’t believe their isn’t traffic or weather web cams that didn’t catch the event. Something to point to the exact point of origin.

Limerick on August 1, 2007 at 9:56 PM

My prayers go out to the families of those involved. I drive over that bridge daily and am counting my blessings.

infidel on August 1, 2007 at 9:57 PM

unseen, my Son just got an internship with Sen. Coleman yesterday, so it should be interesting to see how things like that work.

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 9:59 PM

They Mythbusters did a show on how sympathetic vibrations or something like that, discovered by Nicola Tesla, could bring a bridge down. I think the episode ended with it being declared “plausible” but improbable. Maybe something like that happened here……

liquidflorian on August 1, 2007 at 9:32 PM

Dude, you beat me to it. I saw that episode, and it was so creepy what they did with that little device. I remember them thinking it couldn’t actually bring down the bridge, but it was one of the weirdest episode, or things in general, I’ve ever seen. How weird would that be? I haven’t got up on the coverage, but from what I’ve heard the construction being done shouldn’t have had anything to do with the collapse, right? Someone in a quote AP uses mentions a jackhammer, and that sounds eerily similar to that Mythbusters thing.

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 10:01 PM

Limerick, I checked all the cameras in the area and all of them weren’t working. Probably due to electic going out there.

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 10:01 PM

And year after year, America’s infrastructure receives mediocre or failing grades.

Hootie on August 1, 2007 at 9:53 PM

Billions are nothing when you think of the size of this country. Since the 1960’s the government has transfered tax dollars from its core responsibilites like water, roads, electric and the military to vote getting programs. Our government is a failure, now it can not even keep the bridges up. But by golly they can get the food stamps out on time.

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 10:02 PM

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 9:59 PM

whatever gets the most votes seems like what gets the most money wether it’s needed or not. Hopefully your son can make a difference.

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 10:03 PM

liquidflorian (and anyone else paying attention to what he and I were talking about), it was the “earthquake machine” and they declared it “Busted”, but again remember how odd it was for this little tiny thing, hardly doing anything, to make a noticable vibration 100 feet away… Wish I knew where there was video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_4)#Episode_60_.E2.80.94_.22Earthquake_Machine.22

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 10:04 PM

just found the Mythbusters vid
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v242550g5qCztwz

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 10:07 PM

Was going thru the stills on the different news sites….one shows what looks like two mud-pumper cement trucks in the middle of the part that collapsed in the river. Also what is the depth of the Mississippi there?

Limerick on August 1, 2007 at 10:09 PM

I bet Truthers are hearing about “explosions”.

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 10:09 PM

It looks bad but I’m hopeing for a miracle for the victims.

Yakko77 on August 1, 2007 at 10:10 PM

One witness told Fox that he, personally, say 3 or 4 vehicles completely submerged or crushed under the bridge.

A Fox producer personally counted 36 vehicles in the water.

amerpundit on August 1, 2007 at 10:14 PM

My pickup is set up with pretty stiff suspension. When in bumper to bumper traffic on bridges here in the Fort Worth area you can feel the truck moving up and down as a bridge flexes and rebounds. Freaky feeling. Makes me wonder.

Limerick on August 1, 2007 at 10:15 PM

Does anyone here know anything about that train that was under the bridge? Is it a possibility that it derailed and caused it to collapse?

amerpundit on August 1, 2007 at 10:16 PM

I saw a end on shot…..looked on the tracks. One grain car crushed.

Limerick on August 1, 2007 at 10:17 PM

What to make of the guy who crossed the bridge just before it collapsed, and noted some workmen tending to a “hole” carved out of the bridge close to the North/East side?

He conjectured the collapse started near there, even though other parts of the bridge (middle, South/West) may have accumulated more damage. This was reported on FOX between 8:30 and 9pm.

RD on August 1, 2007 at 10:19 PM

At least 6 confirmed dead.

amerpundit on August 1, 2007 at 10:19 PM

they’re were to rail road tracks I believe they are used for storage of cars. That piece of bridge collapsed at about a 30 degree angle. 1 car crushed, 1 tanker 1/2 crushed

allrsn on August 1, 2007 at 10:20 PM

It’s a freight train, and a couple of its’ cars were crushed. It looks like it’s still on the tracks. I could be wrong though.

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 10:21 PM

RD on August 1, 2007 at 10:19 PM

I wonder if either of those cement trucks in the photos were near that hole.

Limerick on August 1, 2007 at 10:22 PM

The whole bridge was being resurfaced. They would have made hundreds of holes for repairs. Contrete surface has nothing to do with support of the bridge.

allrsn on August 1, 2007 at 10:25 PM

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 10:01 PM

Yeah, the jackhammer thing is what brought that show to mind.

liquidflorian on August 1, 2007 at 10:26 PM

I bet Truthers are hearing about “explosions”.

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 10:09 PM

Don’t forget the helicopter flying nearby.

SouthernGent on August 1, 2007 at 10:26 PM

I have no clue as to what happened. I think we are just going to have to wait.

allrsn on August 1, 2007 at 10:27 PM

lol and the fake fishermen below!!

allrsn on August 1, 2007 at 10:27 PM

And yet, they have to warn the hunyucks to stop coming into the area. Don’t ya just want to slap those people?

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 10:27 PM

The whole bridge was being resurfaced. They would have made hundreds of holes for repairs. Contrete surface has nothing to do with support of the bridge.

allrsn on August 1, 2007 at 10:25 PM

I think what caught my attention was that the guy who mentioned the “hole” remembers being especially disquieted by what he saw going on in the moments before the bridge came down. He drives the bridge daily, yet he saw something new and odd (though for all I know the guy is putting this together after the fact). Thus my curiosity as to whether the “hole” was roadbed-only or something more elaborate like structural work.

RD on August 1, 2007 at 10:35 PM

Contrete surface has nothing to do with support of the bridge.

allrsn on August 1, 2007 at 10:25 PM

No but the weight of that concrete does. Was the bridge overloaded? Was it being expanded beyond its core function because it was cheaper to add another lane instead of a new bridge?

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 10:36 PM

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 10:36 PM

Not sure if it was overloaded. Reports said at least one lane was closed, so I’d assume it’d even the weight out from the lack of vehicles in that one lane. Maybe I’m wrong.

amerpundit on August 1, 2007 at 10:37 PM

I refuse to believe anything anybody says about this until I hear from that engineering expert…Rosie O’Donnell she’ll know how Bush did it using that earthquake machine that caused that tidalwave a few years ago….or using those explosives that brought down the levees in New Orleans…one way or another she’ll let us know how Bush did it.

mlong on August 1, 2007 at 10:41 PM

From what I’ve heard, the lane closures were on one side. This is a suspension bridge and, crossing it hundreds of times myself, I can tell you it moves a lot.

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 10:43 PM

mlong on August 1, 2007 at 10:41 PM

I never thought of checking Rosie’s site.

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 10:45 PM

amerpundit on August 1, 2007 at 10:37 PM

Could be a load imbalance? My feeling is that the bridge was being expanded beyond its core function due to budgets. In 1960 this bridge was not an 8 lane bridge. Something caused it to reach its load bearing limit today. What it was I have no idea but my bet is this was something that has been building up over years.

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 10:48 PM

Damn. Looking at WCCO’s “old” pics, those joints look a lot like the ones that caused the failure of the Hoan Bridge here in Milwaukee (thankfully in that one, the bridge didn’t go all the way down).

steveegg on August 1, 2007 at 10:57 PM

Condolences to those who’ve lost family or friends. Let’s hope the death toll remains in (low) single digits.

My second thought, in present political climate, was the same as many others: how will they blame for Bush for this?

A few pieces of information for pre-emptive defense:

Federal funding for ground transportation and infrastructure has increased by 26% in the first five budgets of the Bush administration (2006 vs. the last Clinton budget in 2001). In the first five budgets of the Clinton administration (1998 vs. the last Bush 41 budget in 1993), it increased by 22%. (Source: OMB)

So there is no basis for the claims we are sure to hear that the Bush administration has “cut” funding for road/bridge maintenance.

LagunaDave on August 1, 2007 at 11:05 PM

They Mythbusters did a show on how sympathetic vibrations or something like that, discovered by Nicola Tesla, could bring a bridge down. I think the episode ended with it being declared “plausible” but improbable. Maybe something like that happened here……

liquidflorian on August 1, 2007 at 9:32 PM

The Romans learned the hard way to march OUT of step when crossing bridges. Hundreds or thousands of soldiers marching in time across bridges did that same effect, and they had to change.

bikermailman on August 1, 2007 at 11:14 PM

Don’t forget the helicopter flying nearby.

SouthernGent on August 1, 2007 at 10:26 PM

Haha. Oddly, I’ve seen a lot of helicopters of late. I saw 3 flying high in formation over the lake when I was kayaking last week, one in the same area the next time, and another today. And actually I saw one on the way up to the lake/My Grandfather’s house about a month ago.

RightWinged on August 1, 2007 at 11:16 PM

My pickup is set up with pretty stiff suspension. When in bumper to bumper traffic on bridges here in the Fort Worth area you can feel the truck moving up and down as a bridge flexes and rebounds. Freaky feeling. Makes me wonder.

Limerick on August 1, 2007 at 10:15 PM

They design bridges to flex in that manner. It allows the energy to ‘escape’, where if it were completely rigid, it would fail much sooner. Same concept as designing race cars to fly apart in a crash. The energy is transferred to the flying parts instead of the driver.

bikermailman on August 1, 2007 at 11:18 PM

I read that the Romans would also make the builders of a new bridge stand underneath it when the first legion crossed, too.

The effects of resonance (”sympathetic vibrations”) on mechanical vibrations were well-understood long before Nikolai Tesla.

Suspension bridges tend to be affected by side-to-side motion caused by the wind, but it doesn’t look to me like the debris is skewed to the sides as I would expect in this case. The vertical buckling looks more like a fatigue-related mechanical failure.

But I’m a physicist, not a mechanical engineer…

LagunaDave on August 1, 2007 at 11:25 PM

What strikes me when looking at these pictures, is what I believe to be a much older “arch-style” bridge standing resolutely beside the fallen one. I could be totally wrong about this, but I’m thinking…. maybe this newer bridge was sold on the idea that it took half the steel, half the labor, half the time to build… thus half the cost. The “new” way isn’t always the best way.

Maxx on August 1, 2007 at 11:41 PM

The citizens of Minneapolis are lining up to give blood in case the victims need it.

Once again, the citizenry takes care of their own. God bless em’.

BacaDog on August 1, 2007 at 11:44 PM

BacaDog on August 1, 2007 at 11:45 PM

Maxx on August 1, 2007 at 11:41 PM

It was built as a suspension bridge to keep pillars out of the river that would hinder river traffic.

oakpack on August 1, 2007 at 11:49 PM

Here’s the location of the bridge (Google Maps satellite view). Notice the dam just to the west. There would be some significant current there for anyone who ended up in the river, and I’m sure that would have made rescue efforts more difficult.

I’m from the Twin Cities, living in Chicago. It took a while to reach my family and close friends, but they’re all okay. That said, there are a lot of families out there in need of prayers tonight, if you’re the praying sort.

Estimates for the number of cars crossing this bridge daily range from 140,000 to 200,000, so you can imagine how much the loss of this bridge will affect traffic in the area.

More videos and photos at KSTP.com. Info on the bridge.

insomni on August 1, 2007 at 11:51 PM

They design bridges to flex in that manner. It allows the energy to ‘escape’,

Right. By the same token, aircraft wings are designed to flex. Stiff structures have no ability to “relax” through swaying or flexing.

If you were sitting on a suspension bridge and it quit moving? Get the hell off.

BacaDog on August 1, 2007 at 11:51 PM

BacaDog on August 1, 2007 at 11:51 PM

OT but reminds me of the SR71. It was built so that while sitting on the ground it would leak a lot of fuel. This was because when it was cruising at Mach 3 plus and glowing cherry red, the metal would expand so much that without this design the aircraft couldn’t fly at that speed.
That was a really neat aircraft.

Bradky on August 1, 2007 at 11:55 PM

Since the 1960’s the government has transfered tax dollars from its core responsibilites like water, roads, electric and the military to vote getting programs. Our government is a failure, now it can not even keep the bridges up. But by golly they can get the food stamps out on time.

unseen on August 1, 2007 at 10:02 PM

Easily the most salient point in the thread.

Maxx on August 1, 2007 at 11:56 PM

Easily the most salient point in the thread.

Maybe the most “salient”, but not the most relevant, I think.

Local road construction projects are among the best “vote-getting programs” there are. Remeber the “Bridge to Nowhere”?

And as I showed above, there baseline has steadily increased every year. Blaming this on politicians in Washington – Democrat or Republican – is simply moonbattery.

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 12:18 AM

Sidebar: Wouldn’t surpirse me if the contractor was using illegals at a reduced wage with no real skills other than the skill of getting paid under the table.

Hmmmmmmmmm….

SouthernGent on August 2, 2007 at 12:21 AM

The storm is just starting to come in after weeks of hot & dry? I wonder if the rapid drop in barometric pressure contributed to this.

askheaves on August 1, 2007 at 9:06 PM

+

They Mythbusters did a show on how sympathetic vibrations or something like that, discovered by Nicola Tesla, could bring a bridge down.

liquidflorian on August 1, 2007 at 9:32 PM

+

That motorist told Joe Fryer that there was shaking from jack hammer and then the bridge just dropped.

+

Traffic jam on the bridge. Overweight?

BacaDog on August 1, 2007 at 9:42 PM

= Perfect Storm.

- The Cat

P.S. Even the terrorists don’t think it’s terrorism. No one claimed responsibility; or don’t they do that anymore?

MirCat on August 2, 2007 at 12:30 AM

Terrorists have looked at over thirty bridges to destroy. The feds convicted a group of Muslims in 93 trying to bring down bridges. Homeland security put out alerts on the San Francisco bridge.

The bridge came down at both ends. There are many odd things with this collapse.

Primbs on August 2, 2007 at 12:32 AM

Sometimes things just happen. Maybe it was a horrible accident.

oakpack on August 2, 2007 at 12:33 AM

Photo of the bridge before collapse here.

Some people have called it a suspension bridge, but it doesn’t look like a suspension bridge to me.

Barometric pressure or a jackhammer are not going to make a steel girder bridge collapse.

Of all the details I’ve seen, the passing train seems the likeliest. Depending on the exact speed of the train, the shaking could, just possibly, create a resonance that builds up enough amplitude to destroy the bridge. But I doubt.

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 12:38 AM

Steel has one type of resonance and concrete has another type of resonance. Engineers should build bridges in the last sixty years to withstand resonance programs.

Primbs on August 2, 2007 at 12:52 AM

Steel has one type of resonance and concrete has another type of resonance. Engineers should build bridges in the last sixty years to withstand resonance programs.

I’m not sure you know what you’re talking about.

Any two non-identical structures will have different natural resonant frequencies. Only one of them has to be excited for structural failure to result.

All I’m saying is that a passing freight train could shake the ground at almost any frequency, depending on its exact speed, and could do so for a long enough period of time (10’s of seconds, or even a minute) to maybe cause a resonance to build up. Is it likely, no. But it is more likely than a jackhammer or barometric pressure being a factor.

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 1:09 AM

I thought they build with multiple materials to make sure that a single resonance problem won’t bring down a bridge or building.Isn’t that suppose to be the failsafe measure?
Many of the engineers claim that only a small portion of the bridge should have collapsed, not the entire span.

How many other bridges may come down when a passing train or too many cars are sitting on the bridge creating a resonance?

Primbs on August 2, 2007 at 1:33 AM

My prayers go out to the families of this tragedy.

Mojave Mark on August 2, 2007 at 1:57 AM

How many other bridges may come down when a passing train or too many cars are sitting on the bridge creating a resonance?

None, that I’m aware of. And I didn’t say it was likely.

But this is sort of like asking: how many skyscrapers collapse because a passenger jet is flown into them?

Since bridge collapses happen very infrequently and each tends to have a fairly unique cause, it is not easy to extrapolate from past experience.

Most recent bridge collapses have been caused by damage of one sort or another to the foundations. A commenter at another site suggests erosion from the river current may have caused one of the pylons on the bank to shift. This is doesn’t seem impossible either.

Anyway, all the physical evidence is there, so I imagine it will be sorted out in fairly short order.

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 3:04 AM

Local tv is reporting 7 dead. Not the 9 that is being reported by others nationaly. 60 injured and 20 missing, but those numbers I’m sure will change.

oakpack on August 2, 2007 at 4:57 AM

Best post I haver seen on this subject so far anywhere.

It is from one of the smartest commenters on Robert Spencer’s JihadWatch, which says a lot.

“There is a State that considers pez to be a registered engineer. Pez has designed bridges, got one being built as we speak. You design them to withstand earthquakes. You design them to withstand violent wind events. You design them to handle big bouncing concrete trucks. After all of this, code makes you put in a healthy safety factor. And then to cover the engineer’s rear, add a good deal of conservatism on top of it all. The public pays for the extra material and doesn’t know any better. The engineer sleeps better and has lower insurance premiums. Just one more way of ripping off the taxpayer in my opinion.

Bridge design 101: you create a concrete/metal framework upon which you construct a reinforced concrete slab. The concrete/metal framework is free-standing. Any surface work on the slab shouldn’t impact the free-standing base. Fox News’ plastering of the fact that the bridge was ‘under construction’ doesn’t make too much sense.

The idea of a bridge just falling down on a quiet evening with stationary traffic is pretty far-fetched.

Nobody knows what happened. It is possible that four decades of the Mississippi washed out material below footings. But usually bridges in rivers use piles or place footings on bedrock.

What is weird is that the failure happened without heavy loading. Looks to me like mostly cars and a truck or two. Reportedly stationary. If a bridge had a problem, you’d expect it to fail when an army convoy was crossing at speed or something along those lines.

Just some internet speculation.”

pez on JihadWatch.

MB4 on August 2, 2007 at 6:10 AM

Shep is the worst. Had to change the channel to MSNBC

redrock on August 1, 2007 at 8:28 PM

Couldn’t agree with you more.

Christoph on August 2, 2007 at 7:26 AM

OK, as long as we are speculating here is mine.

These type of bridges are not designed to tolerate any linear motion. (lateral motion up and down the long axis)

Friends of mine in MN have told me that during unusually hot summers they have a lot of trouble with highway buckling due to the lack of enough expansion joints. I have seen this happen before and sometimes the stresses build up and release suddenly almost with and explosion up as the concrete buckles. Note that one eyewitness stated on Fox that before the bridge came down she felt and heard a shock and saw debris flying up in the air. When that happens imagine the effect on the structure of having several hundred thousand tons of road surface shift laterally down the long axis of the bridge. The structure can’t take that kind of stress.

There’s my guess, lets see what the investigation shows.

conservnut on August 2, 2007 at 7:35 AM

Friends of mine in MN have told me that during unusually hot summers they have a lot of trouble with highway buckling due to the lack of enough expansion joints.

If so, it will obviously be blamed on global warming, which everyone knows is Bush’s fault…

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 8:12 AM

cnn.com now has a video of the actual collapse occuring…

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 8:18 AM

cnn.com now has a video of the actual collapse occuring…

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 8:18 AM

Saw it too – it’s a good one. (And naturally I’m curious what the view would have been from above & to the right of the camera…)

RD on August 2, 2007 at 8:58 AM

[conservnut on August 2, 2007 at 7:35 AM]

I’ve seen it too. Most of the time it’s due to the expansion joints becoming filled with sediment. Bridge slabs aren’t the run of the mill variety expansion joint in highways in that they need to be controlled for movement/dispacement and don’t have the problem of being filled with sediment.

——————
[MB4 on August 2, 2007 at 6:10 AM]

There are some concrete and steel shards of truth to what he says. I’d call them the Beauchamp shards.

Dusty on August 2, 2007 at 9:46 AM

Thoughts and prayers are with the families.

congsan on August 2, 2007 at 10:18 AM

My off-the-cuff random guess as to the cause is work hardening of critical bolts / beams from decades of vibration. Hit a piece of steel and it gets a tiny bit harder. Keep doing it and eventually it becomes hard enough it gets brittle. Eventually it’ll shatter like glass.

There’s a bridge we normally cross on our way to / from work here in KC (the Broadway Bridge). It used to have quite a bit of ‘bounce’ from the traffic – enough you’d notice it when you got stopped near one end. They did some work on it – repainting, etc., and it has now occurred to me that it hasn’t been as bouncy lately. Right now we’re not taking it because of construction on the route to/from it causing too many backups.

Read a report on the Mpls bridge this morning that said the resurfacing work had it down to one lane / side. Thank all that’s holy for small favors – imagine how bad it would have been with all lanes ‘open’ (read: full of cars).

KCSteve on August 2, 2007 at 10:23 AM

LagunaDave on August 2, 2007 at 12:18 AM

A recent study by the country’s engineers brings the cost to fix the country’s infrastructure at $1.6 trillion over the nest 5 years. Yes $1.6 trillion. This is the bill that has come due because the government has put off the repairs, new construction, and general upkeep because the money has instead been spent on other “more important programs” like welfare, food stamps, social security, SIS, etc. these programs are more important because they get more votes from the general population. Yes the bridge to nowhere comes up but these types of projects are “bribes” to the money men of the politics.

To fix the problem a major transfer of tax revenue must occur from those of special social entitlements to that of genral population good.

The government was formed for the common good not for wealth traqnsfer. The common good includes roads, bridges, dams, defense, schools, police, firemen, hospitals, free and fair markets, etc. It does not include food stamps, welfare, social security, WIC, day care, job training, or earned income offsets.

unseen on August 2, 2007 at 11:01 AM

Have the lefty kooks found a way to blame this on Bush yet?

infidel4life on August 2, 2007 at 11:02 AM

infidel4life on August 2, 2007 at 11:02 AM

I blame the entire government (local, state, and federal) both dems and reps. They have failed to due one of their core responsibilities. Nero fiddles while Rome falls apart piece by piece.

unseen on August 2, 2007 at 11:10 AM

Have the lefty kooks found a way to blame this on Bush yet?

infidel4life on August 2, 2007 at 11:02 AM

Im sure it wont be long untill Kanye West comes out with a single titled George Bush dont like twin city people. or somthing of that nature..

gberez on August 2, 2007 at 11:25 AM

There are some concrete and steel shards of truth to what he says. I’d call them the Beauchamp shards.

Dusty on August 2, 2007 at 9:46 AM

The guy I quoted IS a bridge engineer and you put him in the same camp as Beauchamp.

WOW!

MB4 on August 2, 2007 at 1:41 PM

Some are not convinced this isn’t terrorism. Radical Islamic terrorists have certainly targeted bridges.

Primbs on August 2, 2007 at 1:44 PM

Also reported that the FBI is at least using bomb sniffing dogs at the bridge and others nearby.

Primbs on August 2, 2007 at 2:34 PM

This is Congresses fault- instead of wasting money on earmarks and buying votes from their friends the money the taxpayers pay should be rebuilding the infrastructure of this country. We have known for years we have problems with roads, bridges, electrical grid etc. Instead we have the “bridge to nowhere”,every Congressman that has added to the waste with earmarks should all be replaced. It needs to be against the law to add earmark projects.Look at the crap they have just added to the SCHIP bill- perfect example of their stupid decisions and the waste of our money.

nnaus on August 2, 2007 at 3:19 PM

Guess the money waas allocated to Minnesota for bridge repair- as well as every other state- why wasn’t it used? The state and local governments need to explain what happened to the money Federal government gave them.

nnaus on August 2, 2007 at 5:18 PM

nnaus on August 2, 2007 at 5:18 PM

The money given is not enough. We have spent about 100 billion a year on Iraq. The last transportation bill came in at 256 billion over 6 years. We need 1.6 TRILLION over 5 years to fix the problems. What Congress has passed is at least 6 times LESS than what is needed. We give Congress 2.9 TRILLION a year in tax dollars has a nation. We spend about 500 billion a year for Defense. Where the hell is the other 2.4 TRILLION going?

What is government’s answer to its failed management of our roads? Make them private. Yeah that will work. Roads should not be about making a profit, they should be about making them safe, accesible, and open to all.

unseen on August 2, 2007 at 5:48 PM

Non-sequitur: I just had to laugh at O’Reilly’s segment that just ran. From the get-go his “bridge expert” didn’t seem to be couching many of his conclusions with the requisite wait-and-see caution shown by the rest of the news-osphere, and beating up specifically on the DOT’s inspection standards (i.e., including the assertion that “56% of all visual inspections are wrong“), suggesting they specifically were the culprit behind this particular disaster.

I couldn’t shake the feeling that I was just about to be sold something, something big…

So when the punchline came – the guy owns a company selling expensive structural analysis equipment (surprise!) and would stand to win big if the gov’t changes their inspection approach – it wasn’t exactly a surprise. Way to go bill, in that No-Spin Zone… glad we can count on you to cut through the fog, man.

RD on August 2, 2007 at 8:25 PM

I just had to laugh at O’Reilly’s segment that just ran. From the get-go his “bridge expert” didn’t seem to be couching many of his conclusions with the requisite wait-and-see caution shown by the rest of the news-osphere, and beating up specifically on the DOT’s inspection standards (i.e., including the assertion that “56% of all visual inspections are wrong“), suggesting they specifically were the culprit behind this particular disaster.

I couldn’t shake the feeling that I was just about to be sold something, something big…

So when the punchline came – the guy owns a company selling expensive structural analysis equipment (surprise!) and would stand to win big if the gov’t changes their inspection approach – it wasn’t exactly a surprise. Way to go bill, in that No-Spin Zone… glad we can count on you to cut through the fog, man.

RD on August 2, 2007 at 8:25 PM

Yeah, I watched that segment too. He needs to have a discussion with his Producers because they are the ones booking and, presumably, doing research on the guests. Booking that guy, in particular, was too calculated and — I think — inappropriate.

There are plenty of civil (structural) engineers to interview, including engineering professors, regarding what happened…

eanax on August 2, 2007 at 9:45 PM

Update: “According to a structural engineer who spoke with WCCO-TV’s Don Shelby, it doesn’t appear to be a concrete failure but that the steel failed.” A former NTSB commissioner is telling Sean Hannity as I write this that he’s surprised the bridge hasn’t been inspected since 2004. WCCO has now updated to say that while work has been going on for the past nine months to repair potholes and concrete, there’s been no work on the structure under the bridge………………………………………………The fact that no structural work has been done is not an escape clause for the Engineering Department overseeing the repair, or for that matter all maintainence since the bridge was built. Support members are engineered to withstand the weights of the total sum of their combined components (static or dead load0, plus the weight for which it was designed such people cars and trucks (live load). My suspicions are drawn immediatly to any resurfacing that has been done over the life of the span. If a material heavier than the original was used or if a new surface has been applied over the existing one without removing it then all bets are off. The original equations used to calculate the static and live loads are violated and the structural integrity of the bridge was compromised. I studied engineering in community college but I also have many years feild experience. I want to see how long it takes the civil engineers to investigate my hypothesis. I’m just an old hammer jockey. (form carpenter,layout man)

sonnyspats1 on August 2, 2007 at 10:32 PM

Without xrays it is impossible to ‘inspect’ any steel structure. Ultrasound in the new technology to perform these tasks.

sonnyspats1 on August 2, 2007 at 10:40 PM

I blame feminism.

sonnyspats1 on August 2, 2007 at 10:41 PM

During the Katrina disaster the job of public saftey fell directly on the sholders of the Governor. Having lived through many hurricanes in Florida including Andrew I can attest to the limited role of the federal government. Fema was not a player in the scenerio til weeks after. The people and their home insurance companies rapid response teams did the job. Companies like State Farm rented whole floors in hotels and dispatched agents with check books into the community. The Governors Office cordinated the major utilities repair by networking with other states and of course you can’t leave out the nationwide support of First Responders and volunteers. It was calculated the day after Andrew there were 250,000 homeless people in South Florida(you read it right one quarter million people) With less than 200 deaths I felt happy about being part of the construction industry there. I said all that to say this. While there are many jobs women are qualified to do and many are now taking leadership roles in once male dominated industries and government administration. Being hired or appointed to meet certian quotas,is no substitute for hands on experience that takes decades to aquire. Passing a test and knowing all the right buzz words is not acceptabile either. I think it is time to start to examining the impact if any this is having in the country.

sonnyspats1 on August 2, 2007 at 11:09 PM

I rest my case.

sonnyspats1 on August 3, 2007 at 12:19 AM

1)

Should we start a betting pool on how soon someone finds a way to blame Bush for this?

mlong on August 1, 2007 at 8:23 PM

2)

…how will they blame for Bush for this?

A few pieces of information for pre-emptive defense:

Federal funding for ground transportation and infrastructure has increased by 26% in the first five budgets of the Bush administration (2006 vs. the last Clinton budget in 2001). In the first five budgets of the Clinton administration (1998 vs. the last Bush 41 budget in 1993), it increased by 22%. (Source: OMB)

So there is no basis for the claims we are sure to hear that the Bush administration has “cut” funding for road/bridge maintenance.

LagunaDave on August 1, 2007 at 11:05 PM

3)

Have the lefty kooks found a way to blame this on Bush yet?

infidel4life on August 2, 2007 at 11:02 AM

Yes, the BDS has already started showing up…

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush’s administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, “failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation,” adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

When Congress next rewrites the highway funding bill in 2009, “we’re not going to settle for a bargain-basement transportation” policy, Oberstar said.

ITookTheRedPill on August 3, 2007 at 12:32 AM

Minn. bridge problems uncovered in 1990

AP

MINNEAPOLIS – Minnesota officials were warned as early as 1990 that the bridge that collapsed into the Mississippi River was “structurally deficient,” yet they relied on a strategy of patchwork fixes and stepped-up inspections.

“We thought we had done all we could,” state bridge engineer Dan Dorgan told reporters not far from the mangled remains of the span. “Obviously something went terribly wrong.”

normsrevenge on August 3, 2007 at 12:47 AM

But I’m a physicist, not a mechanical engineer…

LagunaDave on August 1, 2007 at 11:25 PM

Civil Engineers everywhere take umbrance with LagunaDave. Haven’t you ever heard the old saying LD? Mechanical engineers build weapons; civil engineers build targets.

Hootie on August 3, 2007 at 8:56 AM

If a material heavier than the original was used or if a new surface has been applied over the existing one without removing it then all bets are off.

Except the weight of concrete hasn’t changed drastically in the past 50 or so years. If anything, we’ve developed new ways to find high-strength, light-weight concrete. And asphalt’s asphalt (and standard procedure is always to strip then replace). Also, I believe the safety factors have become less conservative in recent decades for steel design, which means we should have had a bridge designed to withstand more than if it were designed using today’s standards.

Most failures like this are usually found at the connections.

Hootie on August 3, 2007 at 9:03 AM

Relax!!! The Democrats will fix this problem in no time!!! They’ll use their standard strategies:

Nancy Pelosi will immediately introduce a bill to prohibit highway and bridge inspections, as these
actions violate privacy and disparage workers.

Simultaneously, bills will be introduced to prohibit Fire, Police, and DOT officials from disseminating any
information which might disparage union-built highway and bridge projects, such as the results of past inspections.

Additional bills will be introduced to extend SCHIP to include all residents of Minnesota, as they either have
already been injured by the bridge collapse or they will be injured in future bridge collapses. In exchange for
this benefit, all private medical insurance will be outlawed, and it will be illegal for doctors to accept payment from
any source except the federal government.

Al Gore will make a movie which proves that the bridge would have been fine if SUV’s, trucks, and gasoline-
powered vehicles had not been allowed to use it. There will be hundreds of interviews with “scientists”
(mostly college professors) who will assert that the bridge collapsed because of Global Warming, and it’s
YOUR FAULT for using transportation, heating and cooling your home, eating food grown more than a mile
from your house, and selfishly using any lighting suitable for reading.

Ted Kennedy will introduce a bill to give immediate legal residency and citizenship to all illegal aliens
because we’ll “need all the help we can get” to quickly rebuild the bridge.

Jessie Jackson will complain that women and minorities are getting left out of reconstruction efforts,
and he’ll sue to stop all work on the bridge until he’s happy and/or paid.

CAIR will sue Governor Tim Pawlenty and Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak for announcing an Interfaith Prayer Service
to be held at St. Mark’s Cathedral.

The homeless who lived under the bridge will be interviewed again and again. All of them who manage to get air time will complain that FEMA has failed to get them money or a trailer.

There will be hearings to determine whether Attorney General Alberto Gonzoles has engaged in over-zealous
enforcement of the law of gravity, and thus contributed to the collapse.

And lastly, there will be a move to impeach President George W Bush, because he took no action even after the collapse
began to stop the collapse…and he actually let the bridge deck fall to the ground.

landlines on August 3, 2007 at 10:27 AM

But seriously, this bridge design cannot tolerate failure of a single member: the whole bridge fails. Look at the pictures: every truss is broken.

Modern bridge designs allow single members to fail without destroying the whole structure. Besides being inherently safer, the modern approach (using the same philosopy used from day one in space travel projects) means that you can REPAIR the bridge (by replacing members one-at-a-time).

landlines on August 3, 2007 at 10:34 AM

For a fairly comprehensive summation of the bridge, it’s history, and current events:

RedKnight on August 3, 2007 at 11:54 AM

Second Try

RedKnight on August 3, 2007 at 11:54 AM

Comment pages: 1 2 3


You must be logged in to post a comment.