Hey, that’s a thought!

Me? An Islamophobe? YUP!

…I will not humor Christians (or any other faith) by pretending that their delusion is real. The billions of bible thumpers may take great solace in the fact that their delusion is the number one delusion in the world, but popularity is not truth…

JayHaw Phrenzie on August 1, 2007 at 11:49 PM

Dude. Have you no idea how ridiculous and imperious you sound here? Declaring that you have the ultimate knowledge that Christianity and, indeed, the very concept of a higher being is “delusion” makes you sound like you haven’t really thought this through and don’t know where else to go with it.

It’s ok to believe that there is no God, Jay. Really. You don’t have to try and trump that belief by declaring that you know all believers to be delusional and stupid. Everyone involved in the discussion except you understands that this is your (very strong) opinion.

But to finally get back to the discussion of Islam, how do you justify comparing American Christians to people who murder for Allah? Are you, like Glenn Reynolds, just waiting for that moment – any instant now – when we rise up and begin slicing off atheists’ and Muslims’ heads and placing them on pikes outside of the National Cathedral? Because, what, some nut killed an abortionist 10 years ago?

Get a grip, Jay.

Claiming that you are right does not make it so, it’s your opinion nothing more. You are however correct that its not slander, it’s libel.

Worse, it’s just downright ignorant (as in woefully and willfully uninformed) and condescending.

I am not slandering. I am telling the truth. Truth can be painful. Since you do not like my opinion you call it slander.

Claiming that you are right does not make it so, it’s your opinion nothing more. You are however correct that its not slander, it’s libel.

The definition of libel is the written or published defamation of another individuals character. Which is exactly what you have done.

Your remarks have nothing what so ever to do with religion and are purely attacks on the character of those of religious faith.

In characterizing those of faith as being ignorant fearful deluded and lacking in intelligence you have not attacked religion, but defamed the character of those of religious faith.

doriangrey on August 2, 2007 at 3:11 AM

I am not slandering. I am telling the truth. Truth can be painful. Since you do not like my opinion you call it slander.

People do not like their world views challenged, especially when they base their world view on beliefs they know there is no evidence for.

If you truly had, “faith”, then nothing I type should possibly faze you in the slightest. The reason you are angry, is that deep down, you know I am right. But, you and your “brethren” willnever admit THAT.

Amen.

You perceive any criticism of your religion as “hate and bile”.

You haven’t criticized my religion, you have insulted the intelligence of anyone who chooses to have faith. While sadly you cant tell the difference between attacking an individual and attacking an idea not all the rest of us suffer that same intellectual deficiency.

It is no game, Christians are just as scary as Muslims.

You never know what someone will do when their belief in a mythical creation is more important than empathy for their fellow human beings.

If I was ignorant, I would probably join you in your religion.

I am torn in the end between my desire to help lift the veil of religion from my fellow man and my understanding that the average man is far too fearful and ignorant to allow that veil to be lifted.

You are not attacking religion, you are slandering those who are religious as being ignorant fearful deluded and lacking in intelligence. So much for your much vaunted education and intelligence because it isn’t coming through in your posts, all that is coming through is smug arrogance and childish angst.

Thus, the thread has come full circle back to the original video that spawned it.

As I said, I do not expect to change even one persons views and in fact, am not even attempting to do so.

So in other words what you are saying is that you just enjoy insulting those who you believe to be your intellectual inferiors.

I have made my points. If the clear meaning of my words continues elude you, there is little point in attempting further discussion.

There never was any discussion, just you spouting insults in a childish tirade filled with hate and bile.

Jaibones on August 2, 2007 at 1:22 AM

As I said, I do not expect to change even one persons views and in fact, am not even attempting to do so.

Since my example from Heinlein was probably too subtle for you, let me expound.

People that live in a community that is composed of a majority of a certain religion will often attend services and adopt other outward symbols of the religion in order to blend in and avoid persecution. This is done out of simple self preservation.

Just as in Nazi Germany (someone else already Godwin’ed this thread earlier, so now it’s my turn) many average citizens joined the Nazi party and said “Heil Hitler”. This was done out of simple self preservation.

A significant portion of your coreligionists fall into this category whether you realize it or not.

In any event, while I do not possess the writing skills of Christopher Hitchens, I have made my points. If the clear meaning of my words continues elude you, there is little point in attempting further discussion.

I am writing that post off to the ale. Let’s try to stay focused this time. When I said this about Hitchens:

I believe he was addressing the specific issues of this hate crime BS as it relates to CAIR, and the larger issue of the antisocial behavior of Muslims in general, not their faith.

… I was addressing his specific argument about the conduct of Islamists, which I did not recognize as having anything whatsoever to do with his own atheist views, nor with his book detailing his disenchantment with organized religion, but rather with Muslims burning buildings, blowing up innocent civilians, murdering hostages, etc.

So then when you reply with this:

So, when he makes criticism of Islam, many of his same points would apply to Christianity as well. And for that matter would also apply to: Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Mormonism, Scientology, Wicca, Statue Worship, whatever.

…it seems like we are talking about different points. So be it. I am fully aware of Hitchens’s views on religion, and do not care to debate them at this time.

Jaibones on August 1, 2007 at 10:28 PM

Having read “God is Not Great” twice already, it is pretty clear that Hitchens thesis is that all religions are poisonous, toxic institutions and that he does not give Christianity a free pass.

His opinions of Islam and his opinions of Christianity have the same root.

He rejects the, so called, good works of Christianity along with most other religions and meticulously shows what a corrupting, destructive force it is.

So, when he makes criticism of Islam, many of his same points would apply to Christianity as well. And for that matter would also apply to: Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Mormonism, Scientology, Wicca, Statue Worship, whatever.

Now, I know that I will most likely not enlighten a single person. Intellectual enlightenment is a gradual process that, in my case, took decades to fully develop.

That being said, I will not humor Christians (or any other faith) by pretending that their delusion is real. The billions of bible thumpers may take great solace in the fact that their delusion is the number one delusion in the world, but popularity is not truth.

And lastly, there are far more enlightened people in the worl than you would guess.

People tend to be very social and they adjust to their comunity.

An enlightened person in a neighborhood of deluded religionists is likely to wear a cross and carry a bible and pop into church occasionally. There is great safety in blending in with the masses of hamnaity.

Lazarus Long, a character in some of Robert Heinleins best novels, pnce said (and I paraphrase) – If I found myself on an island and every day at sunset, all the people on the island rub red clay in their bellybuttons in a group. You can be damn sure that I will be the first one rubbing red clay in my bellybutton each day, to do otherwise is suicide.

If I found myself living in Pakistan, I would say prayers 5 times a day, If I found myself living in the inquisition, I would wear a cross and go to confession each week. To do othrwise would be suicide.

Thankfully, I live in a country and in a time where I can be myself and not worry about being killed by deluded fanatics.

So, with that in mind, I am not going to restrain my opinions in order to avoid offense. And I have no expectation of any theists doing the same.

Sometimes as these threads get longer, the fanatics start foaming at the mouth and getting more and more ridiculous and I have to bow out of the thread. this thread is mild compared to those.

If you have not read “God is Not Great”, I suggest you do. You have nothing to fear, I have read the bible a couple times and have tried to struggle through the Koran.

And for the person that claims that the bible is an “Historical text”, I suggest you read “Lost Christianities” by Bart Ehrman. You might be surprised to learn how the bible of today became canon.

JayHaw Phrenzie on August 1, 2007 at 6:16 PM

Jay, I’m not looking for a fight, I was just curious if you said what you really meant in that post. But I’m not sure if your response addressed that.

As for your original post, I don’t know if I even saw it. Hitchens’s commentary in this post had nothing to do with atheism and the Muslim faith, if I recall. I believe he was addressing the specific issues of this hate crime BS as it relates to CAIR, and the larger issue of the antisocial behavior of Muslims in general, not their faith.

He never even got that far. So any celebration of his commentary by Christians or Jews here would have no hypocritical element related to faith.

I think.

Because those ideologies at which I point the finger are inherently destructive and detrimental to individual freedoms. Period.

To make it simple: evil.

That may sound extremely simplistic, but I think that religion, politics, upbringing, or almost anything can be used by people as a tool for evil (or bad behavior).

You can’t blame religion or politics or any influence, unless said influence is inherently destructive and detrimental to individual freedoms (or simply impossible to implement in reality, even if theoretically a “great idea”).

That’s why I feel perfectly justified in pointing the finger at the Quran, hadith, Socialism, Communism…leaving out other ideologies without guilt.

Because those ideologies at which I point the finger are inherently destructive and detrimental to individual freedoms. Period.

Most people on this thread agree with Hitch on Muslims but they disagree with him on Christians….

JayHaw Phrenzie on August 1, 2007 at 6:16 PM

The truth is that most of us are far more selective than YOU would lead people to believe. Your broad-brush gloss-over/gross over-simplification is worthy of a chimpanzee’s attempt at finger-painting.

As much as I don’t like Hitchens, I agree with him when he alludes to the fact that Islamic ideology is incompatible with the 1st amendment to the Constitution/Bill of Rights. I disagree with him, however, when he says religion is the source of all evil in the world. It is Hitchens that is being inconsistent here. In the first case, he is basing his argument on his reading of the rule of law as compared to the fundmentalist dogma contained in the Koran. The second argument (religion is root of all evil), however, can not withstand the scrutiny of the last 4000 years of recorded history. This hateful extremist position of his regarding religion should be classified as for what it is, simple hyperbole and rhetoric than is borne out of his irrational and emotional dread and fear of religion. Intellectually, one can argue that he is brilliant. But emotionally, his well-being rates/ranks right in there with the terms “train wreck” and/or “basket case” IMHO.

Based on your posts that I’ve witnessed here, I’d say that you are not far behind Hitchens. (You’ll take that as a compliment, no doubt.) Just don’t say that you haven’t been warned. All the different roads to hate (and there are many that lead there) all end up at the same place. Nothing good ever comes from going down any of those roads.

There is a very good reason why I brought the issue up in this thread and so far, every replying commenter has missed it.

I wanted to expose the irony and the hypocrisy of people that ridicule Muslims but get offended when you apply similar criticisms to them.

That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day. Thanks for the laugh.

I have very good, personal religions as to why I despise organized religions of all ilk and I am too educated to believe in fairies and gods, so by default I am an Atheist.

I am sure you do have your rationalizations for your hatred of religion, however this education you speak of is having a very difficult time making its existence known.

There is a very good reason why I brought the issue up in this thread and so far, every replying commenter has missed it.

On the contrary nobody missed it, nobody felt like arguing with you. This isn’t a thread about religion and nobody particularly wants to get into a religious pissing match with you in a thread that is all about Ibrahim Hooper getting his a$$ handed to him.

I wanted to expose the irony and the hypocrisy of people that ridicule Muslims but get offended when you apply similar criticisms to them.

No you didn’t, you just believed that you had an opportunity to lash out against one of the objects of your hatred.

Unfortunately unlike Hitch you only managed to come across as an angry, frustrated, not particularly well educated and quite possible inebriated youth.

This I would like to contrast to Hitch who often gives the physical impression of inebriation while displaying a savagely brilliant mental acuity.

You can and probably will believe that I am attacking you and like your beliefs regarding those scriptures you quoted you would be wrong.

There is a very good reason why I brought the issue up in this thread and so far, every replying commenter has missed it.

I wanted to expose the irony and the hypocrisy of people that ridicule Muslims but get offended when you apply similar criticisms to them.

I am the least hypocritical person in the thread, I endorse every aspect of Hitch’s views on religion and I make no difference between whether he applies it to Muslims, Christians, Hindus or Sun Worshippers for that matter. Most people on this thread agree with Hitch on Muslims but they disagree with him on Christians.

Hooper is a wortheless charlatan. And so was Jerry Falwell.

From the looks of it, the answer would be yes.

The stupidist part of the interview was when Paula Zahn asked Hitch if it was Racist to be against Islam.

Shouldn’t a highly paid, national reporter know the diference between a religion and a race?

JayHaw Phrenzie on August 1, 2007 at 12:55 PM

She is highly paid, but she’s not a reporter. She’s lovely (or was), and so they have her read things on camera. Women look at her clothes; men think about having sex with her; otherwise: Bag of Hammers.

But, Jay, I gotta say…it seems that you live to have the “their is no God and religious people are brainless sheep” argument, for whatever reason, and that’s great fun.

But this comment — “which variation of a fictional character that we are going to worship” — might be a little stronger than you intended. If you are willing to place yourself in a group that is reportedly less than 10% of Americans, then denying the existence of a divine power — “God” — is fine, I guess. Almost everyone else in this country can see what I see, that the oddest position in any discussion of religion is that humankind and this universe are accidents of chemistry.

Even this position leaves unanswered the overwhelming questions of why and how matter exists and what explains the continuum of time. So is that your position, that God is “fictional”, along with Buddha, Jesus of Nazareth (in his Son of God form), Allah (or is Mohammad also fictional?) and whatever else is worshipped?