Lancer on August 1, 2007 at 10:03 AM

Agreed. Two generations sounds about right, look at the Japan Model. We’ve made mistake after mistake by not duplicating what we did in the aftermath of WWII. We actually wrote Japan’s constitution for them, including equal rights for women. We really should have done the same in Iraq and Afganistan, using our troops to enforce the laws.

There’s a great quote from a British officer in India in the 19th century, when Hindus still commonly threw widows on their husband’s funeral fires. The Hindus had claimed it was their tradition, and who were the British to change it? The response:

“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”

When was the last time you heard of a Hindu widow being immolated?

I suppose it’s possible to reform Islam, but I doubt that it will happen from within.

You are right on the money. Bush & Company underestimated how, well, alien the people of the Middle East are. We are so used to our own values, freedom, ways of thinking, that the concept that there are tens of millions of people who do not share our values and ways of thinking, who are, by our standards, just flat insane, just never occurred to them.

Our civilization is built on top of millenia of social, political, and religious-moral development that traces all the way back to Plato, Pericles, and Moses. The Middle East peoples simply do not have this massive foundation that we take for granted. Personally I do not believe that they have reached even the level we did when the Magna Carta was signed in 1215. That is one heck of a lot of catching up they have to do.

It would be one thing if we could isolate ourselves from them and wait for them to develop, but that is not an option. To bring true Western civilization to Itaq and Afghanistan will require at least two generations’ worth of effort on our part. Unfortunately we are not up to the challenge of such a sustained commitment. I am not hopeful for the future in regards to the Middle East and Muslim terrorism.

I agree with him, caveated. Because …

EJS’s response, that the article is problematic because it paints the ISF with a broad brush is legitimate is a good point – many IAs and IPs work well with the Americans and guard them aggressively, like here, for instance. And that is important context to keep in mind.

But the Time story itself is very good, and Marines and soldiers who depend on Iraqis for their security have this fear constantly in the back of their minds. And the military is indeed putting these advisory teams in precarious positions, but that’s the nature of the assignment.

All that said, I don’t think blaming Time for reporting this relevant story because it is bad news is totally fair, though the point about context is, as always, on the mark.

Think about it this way: those guys who died and the ones who survived – they deserve to have their story told too.

The sacrifices are never in vain. And the president and GOP made a mistake by not saying “We won the war, that is indisputable. But in order to secure long term peace we need to…” They should have been saying this like a mantra just as some Dems insist we are losing. Instead the GOP chose to allow the Dems to frame the debate with a statement that doesn’t really represent the reality.

Bradky on August 1, 2007 at 5:56 AM

On that point, I couldn’t agree more; and the same expectations should have been voiced before the first US military vehicle rolled across the Iraqi border.

Instead, we heard simplistic phrases about how “people everywhere want to be free,” setting up an expectation that once Saddam was gone, democracy would be embaced and all would live happily ever after.

Trouble is, “freedom” has an entirely different definition for people who’ve lived under brutal and corrupt dictatorships for generations. “Freedom” to Shias means revenge for years of persecution and deprivation at the hands of the Sunnis; and for the Sunnis, “Freedom” means grabbing back the power they had under Saddam. And, of course, “freedom” to Islamofascists means the ages-old barbarity of Sharia law. A constitution and ink-stained fingers notwithstanding, It will take generations of concerted effort, both military and political, to change that model of “freedom” in the Middle East to something remotely resembling the West’s definition of the term, and the Administration’s failure to even begin to make that case is why the Dems and the MSM have controlled the argument.

There now, isn’t that better?

I can’t understand why we aren’t fighting this like we did WWII.
Tim Burton on August 1, 2007 at 2:00 AM

Because the insurgents aren’t a nation state. Wishing for massive bombing just because it was used in WW2 is ignoring the reality of what type of battle we are fighting. I think you know this but are so enamored of wanton killing of Arabs that you make this argument.

But then again I don’t expect much from you AP with your critcism of the readers over the last few months.

TheEJS on August 1, 2007 at 1:25 AM

Has it ever occurred to you that some of the criticism may have been justified? OR that quite possibly your opinion may be wrong?

Their sacrifice cannot be allowed to be in vain.Speakup on August 1, 2007 at 1:51 AM

The sacrifices are never in vain. And the president and GOP made a mistake by not saying “We won the war, that is indisputable. But in order to secure long term peace we need to…” They should have been saying this like a mantra just as some Dems insist we are losing. Instead the GOP chose to allow the Dems to frame the debate with a statement that doesn’t really represent the reality.

That said, it may be necessary to pull back out of Baghdad, set up in strategic spots of Iraq and let the Sunnis and Shia kill each other until they have had enough.
Recommend you read http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070301faessay86201-p0/james-d-fearon/iraq-s-civil-war.html
for a very good analysis on civil wars in the last 60 years.

We should not be allowing our military personnel to be targets like this. Pull back, continue fighting AQ, keep the Kurds and Turks from fighting, let the Iraqis settle their internal affairs and be ready to assist once they have done that.

We “contained” the Soviet Union for 40 years until they collapsed. Normalizing Iraq is going to take at least a decade, if not more.

The story says, dont believe that Iran had anything to do with it, that is Bushitler wanting to blame them so he can start another war.

I think that is what most of us read. There has to be a some type of armor article out next month, they are due for one of them.

Yeah, I’m baffled by the knocks on Time here. This is a very good, detailed, affecting piece. It’s as though some of you will bash the media just to bash them.

Allahpundit on August 1, 2007 at 12:50 AM

It’s funny how all their “affecting” stories always seem to portray Iraq as a lost cause, and soldiers deaths as being in vain. And this happened in January, why not run this “affecting” story then? Oh, that’s right, the progress report is next month so the story wouldn’t have been as “affecting”. But at least we have an “affecting” story about soldiers dying and Iraq being a mess, because there haven’t been any stories like that over the past three years.

No one was trying to win the hearts and minds of German citizens, we decided to bomb the crap out of them till they submitted to us and quit killing us.

I hope for the day we open up on Islam in such a way that it makes Dresden look like we were tossing hand grenades from planes….

“War is not merely justifiable, but imperative upon honorable men, upon an honorable nation, where peace can only be obtained by the sacrifice of conscientious conviction or of national welfare”
Theodore Roosevelt

General George Patton insisted, “It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.”

Allahpundit on August 1, 2007 at 12:50 AM

It’s one of those things so frakked up by the fog of war to make any kind of account in public is wrong. When you have that kind of “reporting”, with this kind of thinking to create a portrait of a “broad strata” of ISF, it becomes a “epic bold robin-hood attack” of an “insurgency” without really considering true context.

Best analogy I have is the aftermath of CNN airing footage of the bodies of Gordon, Shugart, and the Blackhawk crew. Though my feelings can’t be described here or else I would be banned, you can’t make either incident to be bigger than it was (though it was the world for the families in both situations).

Ya the IP isn’t great, hell it’s incompetent by our standards. I have family over there who deal with IP and when asked for evidence on “guilty suspects”, the IP officer responds “I just know he’s guilty.”

But I especially like,

That’s particularly unnerving given the military’s push to embed more U.S. troops with Iraqi units.

Because it’s not like we’ve tried to having MTTs. Instead, why not paint the entire Iraqi force as dangerous and willing to lob grenades in officer’s tents. Whoops, not Iraqis- I’ll try to get that right next time.

Why not though, for once, take a look at the Iraqis who have stood up next to us. Surely it can’t be that difficult to embed with the IA 1st (IFF) Division or the 5th (Iron). Why not a piece on the IA’s 9th, being the first division to incorporate M4/M16s?

But then again I don’t expect much from you AP with your critcism of the readers over the last few months.

PowWow on August 1, 2007 at 12:48 AM

I agree. Who else is up for questioning the timing?

The Karbala incident highlights the dilemmas facing the U.S. as it weighs whether and how to redeploy its troops from the front lines of the war.

Yes, lets not only publish this story, lets also put it in political context of the withdrawal debate.

That’s particularly unnerving given the military’s push to embed more U.S. troops with Iraqi units. In Baghdad today, U.S. and Iraqi forces serve together in 65 combat outposts, up from 10 in February.

Even better, lets use the Karbala Incident to attack the CounterInsurgency(COIN) tactics and strategy of the surge.

Oh, and there’s nothing brazen about shooting a handcuffed prisoner in the face. Heartless doesn’t even being to describe it either.

/rant

In this case Time wrote a very moving account of what happened. If we can’t trust the police we are training anymore than this it doesn’t bode well.

Yeah, I’m baffled by the knocks on Time here. This is a very good, detailed, affecting piece. It’s as though some of you will bash the media just to bash them.

The bad thing is they sat on this to try and stop any progress. It wont change what is happening in Iraq, it is to late for Time, NYT or any piece of crap news to do that, but it can change opinion here, and that is all it is intended to do.

I read how we prosecute our own who have done some bad things over there, but part of me just wished that we would one bad one, take out those responsible for this. Do some Israeli Army stuff. Hunt them down, one by one. We wont do it, but I know I would forgive whoever gave the orders, even if it was President Clinton, Yikes, but I would back her on it.

The military has struggled to affix responsibility for the Karbala murders.

Bullshit.

The politicians and the media are the ones struggling to affix responsibility.

Don’t trust. Just verify.

“Their idea of good and our idea of good are two different things.”

The reason not to accept their security.

Too many Iraqis are still enmeshed 1000 year old vendettas.

And cannot be expected to treat our guys as anything by obstructions to their power struggle.

If they can’t openly arrest the guilt MF’s, at least arrange for them to eat some poisoned marzipan. Or polonium tea.

a cbravzen abduction

WASHINGTON – House Democratic leaders are intent on sidetracking bipartisan attempts to change course in Iraq at least until fall, officials said Tuesday, rather than allow nervous Republicans to vote for legislation that lacks a troop withdrawal deadline.

The Americans interviewed by TIME say at least some Iraqi police at the center were involved, and the conclusions of the military investigation support that view.

Troublesome.