Free will is necessary in Judaism, and therefore Christianity for the system God created for man. This is the source of our liberty. But predestination is the root is islam. Liberty is not a mandate

You hit on something I haven’t thought of… wth no free will and with everything predestined, it’s no wonder that they’re having such a hard time with democracy over there. Free will (the freedom to choose your leaders) is the heart of Western society. If your entire life is spelled out by your god before you’re even born, then you’re more apt to tolerate any number of atrocities comitted against you, your family, and your tribe. It’s little wonder why the Iranian population hasn’t risen up against the mullahs yet.

I have had conversations with a Muslim acquaintance of mine and his explanation of Jesus follows closely with this lesson. Namely, that the New Testament was mostly rewritten by early Christians and therefore not reliable and that Jesus was a prophet who foretold the coming of Mohammed when He referred to the coming of the Holy Spirit.

I also got a kick out of his explanation of the crucifixion. Since it was dark, Judas mistakenly pointed out a fellow who merely looked like Jesus, therefore Jesus Christ was never crucified, but some innocent bystander was. (Of course he couldn’t explain how this went completely unnoticed in such a public spectacle.)

Good thought. I have been pondering some time the differences between Christianity and islam. Christ preached love, with loving your enemy the highest form, while mohammed preached hating your enemy. Mohammed took up the sword and gave lessons. Christ did not use force. So I decided that logically Christianity gave the best life options for the most people. Forgiveness must be practiced within reason, and no hand-chopping.

The difference is in the very definition of God, for starters. The Christian God is a triune God, where the Son added a human nature and died for our sins. Saying this is the worst sin in Islam (shirk).

You remove free will from the equation, and everything can be explained away as “the will (or whim, as it’s becoming increasingly clear that Allah changes his own message at the drop of a hat) of Allah.”

crazy_legs on July 30, 2007 at 11:04 AM

Good thought. I have been pondering some time the differences between Christianity and islam. Christ preached love, with loving your enemy the highest form, while mohammed preached hating your enemy. Mohammed took up the sword and gave lessons. Christ did not use force. So I decided that logically Christianity gave the best life options for the most people. Forgiveness must be practiced within reason, and no hand-chopping.

Crazy-legs points out the root difference. Free will is necessary in Judaism, and therefore Christianity for the system God created for man. This is the source of our liberty. But predestination is the root is islam. Liberty is not a mandate. This is what makes islam like a cult.

Within Christianity we occasionaly get cults. We recognize them as cults because they are closed systems. Information is restricted. You cannot leave a cult. You are immersed in routines that replace freely chosen moves. There is usually a tyranical leader setting the moves. We try to rescue people from these systems. Although a cult may be called ‘Christian’ we outside the cults consider them perversions and non-Christian.

To what extent do we share values when free will is not an option?

Logically, there is also a problem here. Even if (which I don’t believe is the case) Judaism and Christianity are eliminated, that does not mean that Islam is any better or that Islam therefore wins out. Islam still needs to prove itself (positively), and not just through demeaning other religions.

But, I suppose, reading these portions of the Koran does allow one to better understand the source of the hatreds and biases against Jews and Christians as expressed by the followers of Mo. Ironically, Mo’s slanders are evidence of his lack of understanding of the basic tenets of either Judaism or Christianity. Perhaps morality is also beyond the ken or understanding or comprehension of Mo.

I think this is why we get Islamic preachers spending all of their time denigrating Judaism and Christianity. They probably figure that by smearing others they build themselves up…when in reality, they’re digging themselves into a pit. Anyway, I do not believe that this sneering, denigrating, slanderous “religion” should become an integral part of any multicultural community. It causes too much strife and discord.

How can he, on the one hand, keep the Koran pure and undiluted, while he was incapable of doing the same for the other holy books he gave to man (the torah and injil(gospel)?

How do Muslims explain that fatal forensic flaw?

The same way they justify everything, I would guess – it is Allah’s will. Remember the earlier entries Robert made in this series where it was explained that there is no free will, and that you are pre-determined before birth to either hear Allah’s message or not.

You remove free will from the equation, and everything can be explained away as “the will (or whim, as it’s becoming increasingly clear that Allah changes his own message at the drop of a hat) of Allah.”

The catch never mentioned is that the New Testament history of Jesus is considered lies by mohammed, and the koranic version of Jesus appears part gnostic tales, and part mohammed visions.

If we extract from Christianity the parts Mohammed denies (trinity, none coming to the Father except through Christ, loving your enemies, upholding the Law which is the Book of Moses, and especially crucifixion, resurrection and Christ standing as the utimate sacrificial lamb for the sins of mankind) what is left of Jesus of the Christians besides clay pigeons?

What did mohammed say were the teachings of Jesus? I would like to see that spelled out. Since Jesus is called a prophet by muslims, what do they say he prophesied?

And how can the Koran be “perfect” if a passing goat ate one of the suras, scribbled on a leaf or bark, before it was ever collated into the existant text?

If one word is missing, it is imperfect, fallible and unbelievable.

How do Muslims explain that fatal forensic flaw?

Thus, having accused other religions of corrupted a prophet’s teachings, perhaps Islam has insulated itself against such claims.

Yeah, except not really, of course. One of the frequent arguments put forth by Muslims is that Christians (and Jews) corrupted their holy books, which is why they no longer match up with the Koran.

This bubble is easily popped, or would be in a rational conversation, by pointing out to the Muslim that they are in essence accusing Allah of being weak. How can he, on the one hand, keep the Koran pure and undiluted, while he was incapable of doing the same for the other holy books he gave to man (the torah and injil(gospel)?

Many thanks.

A self-fulfilling prophecy, indeed.

As recorded by the self-fulfiller himself.

(Muhammad guarantees everything he says about himself to be true.)

It’s also amazing how convenient all of this stuff is. Amazing that the ‘revelation’ came at the right time and place to counter what the Christians were telling Mohammed. – ThackerAgency

Ali Sina’s book “Understanding Muhammad: A Psychobiography of Allâh’s Prophet” provides copious examples of such convenient ‘coincidences’.
Unfortunately, the book was pulled while Mr. Sina seeks another publisher. When it does become available, I highly recommend it.

And here are some of the endorsements the book has received (there are more here):

The book is prefaced by the celebrated scholar [and Jihad Watch Board member] Ibn Warraq.

[...]

1- A blisteringly honest, thoroughly documented, and piercingly insightful investigation of the root causes within Islam of the fanaticism and violence that today threatens the entire world. Should be required reading at the State Department and the White House. — Robert Spencer, director of Jihad Watch and author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades (Regnery)

2- A powerful, no holds barred look at an ideology of hate and what must be done to eradicate it. This book pulls no punches. A must read for anyone seeking to understand Islamist terrorism” Professor Kim Ezra Shienbaum, Ph.D Dept. of Political Science, Rutgers University Camden, NJ. Chief Editor of Beyond Jihad.

3- With great courage, perspicacity, and trenchant wit, Ali Sina demolishes a host of politically correct myths about Islam, and its founder. One wishes policymaking elites would avail themselves of his insights which shatter the dangerous delusions of their own invented Islam. Andrew G. Bostom, MD, author of The Legacy of Jihad

[...]

9- The war against jihad can and must be won, in spite of the Western elite class that is instinctively prone to appeasement and betrayal. The first task is to analyze frankly the identity and character of the enemy and the nature of the threat. It is essential to discard the taboos and to discuss Islam without fear or guilt, or the shackles of mandated thinking. Ali Sina’s new book makes an important contribution to that objective.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles,” says Sun Tzu. Thanks to this book we know the jihadist enemy a little better — his core beliefs, his role models, his track-record, his mindset, his modus operandi, and his intentions. We also know his weaknesses, which are many, above all his inability to develop a prosperous economy or a functional, harmonious and good society.

The main problem remains with ourselves, however, with those among us who have the power to make policy and shape opinions, and who will reject and condemn Ali Sina’s diagnosis. Our own elite class treats the jihadist mindset as a pathology that can and should be treated by treating causes external to Islam itself. The result is a plethora of proposed multiculturalist “cures” that are as likely to succeed in making us safe from terrorism as snake oil is likely to cure leukemia. Dr. S. Trifkovic, Foreign Affairs Editor CHRONICLES

Not much has changed in history regarding a power hungry leader’s tactic for obfuscation, justification and accusations.

Thanks Robert Spencer for your hard work and dedication to this.

flipflop on July 29, 2007 at 6:45 PM

My larger question is if Mohammad had set the stake, to borrow your phrase, or- did his followers, retroactively making the accusation against others? i.e. projection.

Thus, having accused other religions of corrupted a prophet’s teachings, perhaps Islam has insulated itself against such claims.

cadetwithchips2 on July 29, 2007 at 1:38 PM

That’s the genius of Muslim dogma. Mohammed set a stake in the ground and said this is Allah’s perfect, immutable word, that all other religious doctrines are false, and that no prophets will follow him.

Isn’t the supposed “prediction” of Mohammad’s future “prophethood” in the New Testament a (convenient) misunderstanding of the meaning of the word “paraclete” as mentioned in “The Moslem Christ” by Samuel W. Zwemer?

The prediction is recorded in Qur’an 61:6:

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”

“Ahmed” means “the Most Praised One,” and it is etymologically related to Muhammad, which means “Praised One.” Pickthall drives connection home by translating Ahmed simply as “Praised One.” And the verse is universally understood by Muslims as depicting Jesus predicting the coming of Muhammad.

Muslims contend that this prophecy survives in vestigial form in John 14:16-17, where Jesus says: “And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.”

“Counselor” here is παρακλητος, Paracletos or Paraclete. Some Islamic apologists have claimed that this is a corruption of περικλυτος, Periclytos, which means “famous” or “renowned,” i.e., “Praised One.” However, there is no textual evidence whatsoever for this: no manuscripts of the New Testament exist that use the word περικλυτος in this place. Nor is it likely that the two words might have been confused. That kind of confusion may be theoretically possible in Arabic, which does not write vowels and hence would present two words with identical consonant structures. But Greek does write vowels, and so the words would never in Greek have appeared as even close to identical.

Thus, having accused other religions of corrupted a prophet’s teachings, perhaps Islam has insulated itself against such claims

Perhaps you are right, but I pray that some will see the truth and give up their religion of hate and death and embrace grace! A relationship of love and life thanks to His gift!

Isn’t the supposed “prediction” of Mohammad’s future “prophethood” in the New Testament a (convenient) misunderstanding of the meaning of the word “paraclete” as mentioned in “The Moslem Christ” by Samuel W. Zwemer?

(Especially since any Old testament predictions of a coming prophet were already fulfilled by Jesus.)

So when Jesus said, He is the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Him, He means it!

Ordinary1 on July 29, 2007 at 10:24 AM

Recall that Muhammad’s claim was not that Jesus said such things, but that his followers lied about/corrupted/changed his teachings.

Thus, having accused other religions of corrupted a prophet’s teachings, perhaps Islam has insulated itself against such claims.

Pace University Koran Case – Unbelievably Outrageous. A student was jailed and has been charged with 2 felonies for putting a Qur’an in the toilet.