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Does the “John Doe” provision really accomplish anything?

posted at 1:57 pm on July 26, 2007 by Allahpundit
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The more I think about it, the more I think it doesn’t. What it does do is prevent the law from getting worse. Per the New York Sun’s account of the haggling over the provision, Bennie Thompson and the Democrats wanted to limit the immunity to people who report suspicions of terrorism, not ordinary crime, and to federal claims only, not state and local. The GOP won on those points. But let’s look at the language again as reported by the Wash Times yesterday:

“Any person who, in good faith and based on objectively reasonable suspicion, makes or causes to be made, a voluntary report of covered activity to an authorized official shall be immune from civil liability under federal, state and local law for such report.”

I read that as tantamount to: “Whoever reports an incident of suspicious activity for some reason other than prejudice towards Muslims is immune from suit.” But that was already the question posed by the imams’ complaint: did the passengers discriminate against Muslims by reporting on the imams? If their suspicions were reasonable, then they didn’t and the discrimination claim fails. If their suspicions weren’t reasonable, then they did and they’re liable. The equation hasn’t changed at all. It hasn’t even changed procedurally, in fact. From Pillage Idiot, commenting on Ace’s blog, comes this salient point:

One thing I find troubling is that in REAL qualified immunity for federal and state officials, it’s an immunity from SUIT, not a defense to liability. The language here says “immune from liability” — which sounds like a defense to liability. The significance of this is that in qualified immunity, the courts decide as early as possible whether the immunity applies, so they can spare the defendant the cost and burden of litigation. Here, at least the way it appears, the defendant may have to go well into the litigation, possibly to trial, before the “immunity from liability” can be determined.

I could be wrong in my reading of this, but let’s just say, this will have to be litigated for years before the meaning is clear enough for it to be helpful to John Does.

Yeah, that’s my sense too. Major John Tammes commented here yesterday that he thinks the provision will allow judges to decide upfront whether immunity applies. That’s not PI’s reading and it’s not mine either. Whether the passengers acted “objectively reasonably” in their suspicions is a question of fact for the jury; as such, the case will have to be litigated to its conclusion before that question is answered. Or am I reading it wrong? Lawyers are welcome to weigh in but if I’m right than we’re left with the same so-called “chilling effect” on tipsters that we had before. They may win their lawsuit if they’re sued but that’ll be cold comfort after they’ve been buried under legal bills for months and months.

Ibrahim Hooper understands this very well, as the following clip makes abundantly and painfully clear. Click the image to watch. A real solution, it seems to me, would have been to grant absolute immunity to tipsters inside an airport terminal or on a plane. That solves his KKK hypothetical, unless he thinks the KKK has nothing better to do than hang around the luggage carousel pointing out “brown people” to passing police.

hooper2.jpg


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Yep. The version Democrats agreed to, does nothing. You can still be sued if the reported party claims racism. Then you’d have to hope the court doesn’t agree.

amerpundit on July 26, 2007 at 2:05 PM

Speaking of which.

amerpundit on July 26, 2007 at 2:07 PM

The relief I see is for civil libility.

It looks to this untrained eye that criminal libility for filing a false police report remains.

So… If CAIR can’t sue but the FBI can charge, what’s the problem?

TunaTalon on July 26, 2007 at 2:20 PM

This is insanity. I feel less safe after watching that video.

WisCon on July 26, 2007 at 2:20 PM

No wonder the Dems agreed.

naliaka on July 26, 2007 at 2:21 PM

‘Good faith’ is determined after mountains of legal bills. I don’t think this legislation does anything. I think it was smoke and mirrors and the Republicans blew it again.

PRCalDude on July 26, 2007 at 2:21 PM

The real solution to stop “intimidation by litigation” is to make the LOSER PAY LEGAL FEES OF BOTH SIDES. However, a poor person needs to have the right to address his/her needs in the courts, so it WOULD be unfair to make a blanket rule that loser pays, because that would then stop people of little means from using the courts when they really need to. SO – this is what you do: identify what TYPE of suits need “loser pay” provisions. The PERFECT type, THIS type: slander/libel. In a slander/libel suit, the loser SHOULD pay. This increases the likelihood that only the truly wronged will file suit.

JustTruth101 on July 26, 2007 at 2:21 PM

P.S. And then CAIR/flying imams pay John Doe’s legal bills. That would be justice.

JustTruth101 on July 26, 2007 at 2:24 PM

The plaintiffs bar will find plenty of ways to allege things they’ll argue don’t fall within that language.

Regardless, it indeed does not stop the lawsuit. This would be a defendant’s affirmative defense and his burden to prove all the above elements. This calls for discovery – depositions, etc. – to determine eg whether there was “good faith” or an “objectively reasonable” belief. And wherever there’s a discovery burden, there’s bound to be a sleazy plaintiffs attorney willing to file a baseless claim to obtain a “cost of defense” settlement.

The real problem (as with other areas of tort law that need reform) is that there’s no disincentive for making the claim, either to the plaitniffs lawyer or his client. Why not make a claim? There’s little financial risk – in other words, nothing to stop someone from suing.

BillLalor on July 26, 2007 at 2:32 PM

CAIR is truly an enemy of this country. Shouldn’t someone be figuring out exactly where all their funding comes from?

WisCon on July 26, 2007 at 2:33 PM

” Objectively Reasonable ” will require litigation EVERY TIME. Nothing has changed, the situation is still deplorable. Reminds me of the original Border Fence. HOORAY FOR US!!!! Please.

Did anyone else note Hooper basically say that in his opinion, every instance will require such a determination to make sure that it wasn’t discrimination/malicious. I think we are in for a long, difficult ordeal.

America1st on July 26, 2007 at 2:33 PM

Allah, thanks for including my seat-of-the-pants thoughts on the subject.

Here’s another thought: Let someone organize a team of pro bono lawyers to represent all the John Does free of charge. The existence of such an organization will not only protect John Does against the costs of litigation but may possibly discourage morons like CAIR from suing in every case. If they know they’ll have firm adversaries, they’ll have to choose their cases carefully.

Attila (Pillage Idiot) on July 26, 2007 at 2:42 PM

There’s one thing which I think is great about this video. Hoop has always been a weasel-word, couched-implication, duplicitous snake-oil salesman. (But how do you really feel?) At least here, he is shown to be an out and out malicious thug. Too bad it was on MSNBC and thus few of the promoters of the ROP™ vision of Islam had a chance to sample this venom.

eeyore on July 26, 2007 at 2:44 PM

There is a consequence to losing elections.

Those of you that are thinking about sitting out the next election should think very strongly about how wthis would have turned out differently if the Dhimmicrats weren’t in control of congress.

JayHaw Phrenzie on July 26, 2007 at 2:46 PM

Out here in California, we have the typical cause of action for malicious prosecution. The elements of that cause of action are:

1. That [name of defendant] was actively involved in causing
[name of plaintiff] to be prosecuted [or in causing the
continuation of the prosecution];
2. That the criminal proceeding ended in [name of plaintiff]’s
favor;
3. That [name of defendant] did not reasonably believe [insert
disputed fact necessary to determine probable cause];
4. That [name of defendant] acted primarily for a purpose
other than that of bringing [name of plaintiff] to justice;
5. That [name of plaintiff] was harmed; and
6. That [name of defendant]’s conduct was a substantial factor
in causing [name of plaintiff]’s harm.

This would be a state action and not affected by the Federal legislation. If I were CAIR, I would not have any trouble pleading a case — so long as requirement 2 (criminal case dismissed) was satisfied. The other elements can be pled and the John Doe would need to file an answer, do discovery, and file a motion for summary judgment before he could hope to get out. That equals $$$$ and about 9 to 12 months of time. If the MSJ is not granted, you would need to try the case and a jury can do anything (read crap shoot).

tommylotto on July 26, 2007 at 2:47 PM

P.S. And then CAIR/flying imams pay John Doe’s legal bills. That would be justice.

JustTruth101 on July 26, 2007 at 2:24 PM

You’re counting on the hope that some Liberal judge wouldn’t rule in CAIR’s favor because the report hurt somebody’s feelings.

amerpundit on July 26, 2007 at 2:51 PM

The only winners here are the terrorists and the attornies. I can’t make up my mind which is worse…

One hypothetical scenario: Let’s say you report a guy wearing a bomb on your plane. He sues, saying his civil rights were violated. You get hauled into court for two years with all the associated attorney fees. The terrorist is found guilty but you’re in and out of court for the next ten years while the case is being appealed. I think I’ll keep my mouth shut and take the next flight.

Thanks Congress!

repvoter on July 26, 2007 at 2:52 PM

CAIR is truly an enemy of this country. Shouldn’t someone be figuring out exactly where all their funding comes from?

WisCon on July 26, 2007 at 2:33 PM

We know who CAIR is and where their funding comes from[see paragraph 9], but the Democrat fifth column doesn’t care that CAIR is subversive, because protecting this country isn’t their priority, only securing their domination over it.

yonaton on July 26, 2007 at 2:54 PM

Check that. The new proposal would apply to a state action for malicious prosecution.

However, as you can see from the requirements of the state action, they are more difficult to meet that the protections offered by the proposed legislation. The bar for the state cause of action is actually higher that the proposed legislation. “Good faith and based on objectively reasonable suspicion” would be the same or easier to plead than a claim of malicious prosecution.

Also, there is an absolute privilege offered by CA Civil Code section 47 which grants absolute immunity for reports to authorities. Only an action for malicious prosecution would be excepted.

Final analysis: The proposed legislation does little of nothing and a devious lawyer working for CAIR could still plead a case against John Doe, still require him to hire a lawyer and defend himself. So long as the plaintiff (Muslim extremist operative) was acquited of the case was dismissed (Favorably terminated).

tommylotto on July 26, 2007 at 3:01 PM

Immune from Liability. ‘IFL’ Phrase one that will echo in the airwaves the next 10 years.

Phrase two? O.R.S. which is ‘objectively reasonable suspicion’.

I hope I’m wrong, but who knows with legalspeak confusion and CAIR on the warpath.

Might be we give this to the supremes NOW to help write it as it should be, to protect the good people from the getgo.

Remember, communication occurs in the mind of the receiver.

shooter on July 26, 2007 at 3:03 PM

I am sooo tempted to start an organization that does one thing.
….file lawsuits against CAIR. Nothing else, just an onslaught of never ending emotional, expensive(for cair) and time consuming law suits (maybe in civil court, under $10K) in hundreds of county courts around nation.

People ARE being hurt by CAIR, daily.

Damn, we could all be damaged emotionally soon, our FEARS growing, the disrupted lives of our children…it really is endless.

shooter on July 26, 2007 at 3:13 PM

That solves his KKK hypothetical, unless he thinks the KKK has nothing better to do than hang around the luggage carousel pointing out “brown people” to passing police.

It’s not a surprise that he thinks the KKK would do that since he is part of a group who fly on airliners and raise suspicion so they can bring lawsuits designed to quash the publics willingness to report suspicious activity.

csdeven on July 26, 2007 at 3:19 PM

Key point that many are missing…

CAIR is funded by Saudi Oil money. They have deep pockets and its all considered part of the “religious spending” that Moslems are supposed to do… after all, they are defending their “religion”.

With no penalty for being wrong, CAIR can just spend and spend… even loosing… while tieing this up in court for years. They have taken a page from the ACLU and the Secularist fight… they really don’t care if they win as long as they can get people to surrender just by threatening to sue.

Same exact principal here folks.

Romeo13 on July 26, 2007 at 3:25 PM

There’s one one thing I want to know about Hooper:

Would be prefer a Catapult or Trebuchet?

These infil-traitor weasels, who have complete contempt for the Constitution, thoroughly repel me.

So I’d like to propel them.

Target, Ka’aba.

Extra points for bouncing them off the Black Stone metoerite embedded in the corner.

profitsbeard on July 26, 2007 at 3:33 PM

CAIR and their associates use our own laws against us as we stupidly stand by with our fingers up our rear ends somehow thinking our leaders give a crap.

Our leaders: “Oh, we can’t allow Americans to offend any muslims, even if it means they fail to report suspicious activity and end up dead … no, must not offend muslims”.

Yeah … I’m a dumbshyt.

Thanks for looking out for me Congress.

darwin on July 26, 2007 at 3:41 PM

csdeven on July 26, 2007 at 3:19 PM

You do realize they ARE worried about the KKK… because they know the KKK is out there to defend the White Race, and will stoop to the same tactics THEY use…

Its kinda like one of my beliefs… that we always expect from people what WE are… if your a liar, you’ll suspect others of lieing… if your honorable, you’ll expect honor from others…

Well…. CAIR meet the KKK…

Romeo13 on July 26, 2007 at 3:42 PM

I sure wish they’d start taxing the hell out of anything going into Boston harbor again.

darwin on July 26, 2007 at 3:42 PM

Well…. CAIR meet the KKK…

Romeo13 on July 26, 2007 at 3:42 PM

Tardfight!

James on July 26, 2007 at 3:46 PM

Tardfight!

James on July 26, 2007 at 3:46 PM

LOL… yep… now if we could just get them to go to some 3rd world nation to duke it out….

Romeo13 on July 26, 2007 at 3:47 PM

This proves my point of the other day:
Hooper: …Person should be allow to exercise their legal rights to find out if they were maliciously targeted…
Tucker: with a lawsuit?

The courts cannot function, and are currently being abused by CAIR and others, as a truth serum. The legal system should and must function to protect the rights and property of individuals from accusation.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 3:49 PM

Question.

How have other cases of passengers reporting something suspicious been handled? Have passengers reported such behavior by non-Muslims or non-Arabs?

Connie on July 26, 2007 at 4:14 PM

More Hooper.
Finally, someone who can unite us.
At least, all of us who despise dishonest, smarmy, smug, offensive, threatening jerks with hate spilling out of their eyes.

NellE on July 26, 2007 at 4:52 PM

By the way, wrathofasma at Jihad Watch has posted the video at YouTube with comments enabled.

Go for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf_H5doDdRk

Connie on July 26, 2007 at 5:37 PM

I think the problem is our enemy is smarter then the vast majority of us, they know it and they are using it against us. Like when Thomas Jefferson translated the Qur’an to better know our enemy then, Islam is using our system against us now. They learn, we forget….or forgive.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 5:47 PM

I think the problem is our enemy is smarter then the vast majority of us

Nah, they are just focused on their goal. We aren’t focused on preventing that goal [yet], just a factor of priority at this point.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 5:50 PM

just a factor of priority at this point.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 5:50 PM

If we follow the Liberal MSM, our enemy, the ones sworn to kill us, chanting it, at the top of their lungs after ever Friday prayer, isn’t even in the limelight. “Nothing to see here people, move alone folks, Remember it’s Bush’s fault.”‘ I’m afraid that even if/when we have another terrorist attack on our homeland, somehow it will spun in some way, it’s our fault again, again and again. We have no priorities when it comes to saving our asses.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:09 PM

Their goal is to destroy. It’s much easier to destroy than build up. One day they’ll (the terrorist states) get a livefire demonstration about first order destruction. As with the Christians during the middle ages we will eventually grow weary of all the murder and mayhem.

Mojave Mark on July 26, 2007 at 6:10 PM

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:09 PM

Yea. The level of disconnect is amazing. But as we saw with the amnesty bill, the majority of the population doesn’t buy everything MSM is selling. That is cause for hope.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:24 PM

That is cause for hope.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:24 PM

????And they have used our system against us again, proving that they are smarter than those we trust to protect us.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:31 PM

And I’m not by any means referring to the MSM.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:32 PM

Cause for hope: I mean the populace isn’t lock-step behind MSM. And the mind of the populace will be the determining factor I think. These are the opening days of the ideological war, I think.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:34 PM

We’ve all seen how the race cards have been over used to the point of repugnancy, They’ve taken a lessen, and have moved foreword. Can we all say Pandora’s Box. They’ve opened a can of worms and they are waiting for us to take the bait.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:37 PM

And the using of the system against us, it’s true, they manipulate the system. But frankly these cases could work out well if the courts dismiss them and rule that CAIR pays both parties legal fees. By deeming such cases as frivolous they can help drain the CAIR pocketbook.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:37 PM

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:34 PM

I agree with you, but I’m too pissed to be agreeable.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:39 PM

As an aside: Tucker takes a good bit of heat from critics, but I think he has been very solid on immigration, free speech and, especially, not letting Hooper pull the kind of garbage he often gets away with on other shows.

Still no reason to watch MSNBC, just some points in Carlson’s favor.

Uncle Pinky on July 26, 2007 at 6:41 PM

By deeming such cases as frivolous they can help drain the CAIR pocketbook.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:37 PM

That we fill back up at the gas pumps. lol

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:41 PM

By deeming such cases as frivolous they can help drain the CAIR pocketbook.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:37 PM

That we fill back up at the gas pumps. lol

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:42 PM

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:42 PM

No worries you don’t have to be agreeable for a good conversation :) Word on the street is, and I think AP even posted it here, that CAIR’s financials are down.

But you are right. Energy independence would go a long way; would really help to take the wind out of their sails, and probably the only feasible way unless at some time we go to war with SA.

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:45 PM

CAIR is the new KKK and NAACP! They do what they accuse others of doing.

SouthernGent on July 26, 2007 at 6:54 PM

help to take the wind out of their sails

Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2007 at 6:45 PM

I just think people need to wake up and smell the coffee. That way no judge or a jury will ever canter the Islamic agenda.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 6:55 PM

Like when Thomas Jefferson translated the Qur’an to better know our enemy then, Islam is using our system against us now.

KCtheKat on July 26, 2007 at 5:47 PM

Thomas Jefferson did not translate the Qur’an. He owned a George Sale translation called the Alcoran of Mohammed.

Connie on July 26, 2007 at 6:59 PM

CAIR is the new KKK and NAACP. They do what they accuse others of doing……..Southern Gent

I agree that the NAACP now is the equivalent of the KKK in years past. They are black racists to the core and the only thing determining their actions is the color of white skin. CAIR, on the other hand, does not distinquish between skin colors, but whether someone is an infidel or not. Their hate is more threatening as the murder of innocents is a way of reaching their goals + they are much better financed in order to bring death and destruction to our land.

volsense on July 26, 2007 at 7:04 PM

You gotta hand it to Hooper and CAIR…they know exactly how to use our own system to cripple us. I guess it doesn’t hurt that their coffers will never be too low to pull this crap, either.

I will report suspicious activity. The cost of reporting and being wrong is far outweighed by the cost of keeping silent and being right.

PBoilermaker on July 26, 2007 at 7:28 PM

Despite the best efforts of the leftist multiculturalists, it is in fact legal to be a racist. If you will excuse me, it is legal to not want to fly with kikes, spics, ragheads, what have you. That makes you a cad, not a criminal. Your opinions may make you socially unacceptable, but that doesn’t mean that they are actionable.

HerrMorgenholz on July 26, 2007 at 9:00 PM

I called amy klobuchar’s office today and talked to a PC weed wacker named Joe. In the process of explaining to this POS what kind of treasons crap Klobuchar’s vote was I finally asked Joe. “How would you feel being sued by CAIR right now”.

The fricking phone went dead for several second and I politely told Joe go go fuck himself. One can only deal with traitors for so long.

Done.

Klobuchar’s DC office. 202-224-3244.

Timber Wolf on July 26, 2007 at 9:11 PM

Carleson missed the boat by not pointing out we’re citing specific behavior — not race or silly outfits.

I would cheer Hooper’s day we could look forward to a flight without Moslems but I suspect he talking about the fact that we kaffirs won’t even be allowed on a plane.

[there's yer flick -- Kaffirs on a M'f'n Plane]

Claire on July 27, 2007 at 12:07 AM

Boy, it sure is gonna suck for CAIR & Co. when the next 9/11 comes and lots of Americans across the country don’t behave quite as admirably towards muslims as they did after the first attack, while the rest of us “didn’t see anything officer”.

Teddy on July 27, 2007 at 2:57 AM

While I doubt Bennie Thompson can be voted out of office, I suspect it would be quite uncomfortable for him, if his constituency knew what he is up to.

A small advertising blitz in his district could be quite useful for the Republicans in creating buzz over this issue. And it wouldn’t need to be heavy handed. People can figure this one out on their own.

thuja on July 27, 2007 at 6:30 AM

shooter on July 26, 2007 at 3:13 PM

We need to start searching for lawyers who understand the threat and who might be willing to form a coalition to work, perhaps initially in their free time, on the problem of Islam in this country.

Any attorneys here who are interested?

Connie on July 27, 2007 at 11:22 AM

I called Senator Amy Klobuchar’s office ( 202-224-3244) and talked to a fellow named Joe. Joe made if very clear that the senator was more worried about protected Muslim terrorist rights that American lives.

We went back and forth before I finally asked him, “Joe how would you feel if you were being sued by the CAIR funded Muslims”? That shut him up, for a minute.

Feel free to give the twit a call.

Klobuchar and Ellison. Two of Muslim terrorist best friends.

Timber Wolf on July 27, 2007 at 6:20 PM

It does not matter WHAT legislation is passed. If there are passengers that are spooked when they fly, they will speak up regardless – CAIR be damned. I know I will. NO ONE is gonna give a second thought to what bill our inept government passes.

mimi1220 on July 27, 2007 at 9:29 PM

wow dose CAIR and La Raza hang out together?
They both seem to love throwing out the Klan to defend their actions.

Mojack420 on July 28, 2007 at 3:44 PM

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