La Raza VP: We must stop this talk radio “wave of hate”; Update: LULAC calls for Fairness Doctrine
posted at 12:21 pm on July 22, 2007 by Allahpundit
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The subject doesn’t come up but doubtless you can count them as a firm “yes” on reviving the Fairness Doctrine. The peg for the article is their annual conference that’s happening this weekend in Miami Beach. Hillary’s scheduled to speak today; with this bit of demagoguery as a lead-in and the promise of votes in the air, a Spanish-accented quip about Republicans wanting Hispanics for their electoral fruit fields or whatever is practically guaranteed.
The nation’s largest Hispanic advocacy group says it must come up with a strategy to combat “a wave of hate” its leaders say came from talk radio’s efforts to sink the Senate’s immigration bill.
“That had an extraordinary impact in the Senate, and as a nation, I don’t think we should be comfortable with the fact that the United States Senate responded to what was largely a wave of hate,” Cecilia Munoz, the National Council of La Raza’s senior vice president for research, advocacy and legislation, told The Washington Times after meeting with NCLR affiliates to talk about a new strategy…
“I think we have to shine a light on it,” Ms. Munoz said. “At the end of the day, we believe people need to take sides, that you can’t stand on the sidelines, especially if part of what is motivating the actions of the United States Congress is not really about the public-policy debate, but is about their discomfort with Latinos.“
Republicans are there too. Here’s what they’re doing to advance the assimilationist cause:
Speaking to delegates during lunch yesterday, Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Florida Republican and a Cuban immigrant, urged them to help preserve Spanish.
“It is important that we emphasize the Spanish language and that we keep the Spanish language, and that we transmit that emphasis to our children and our grandchildren,” he said.
Exit question: Why, per La Raza’s “logic,” would an allegedly inveterate Latino-hater like Tom Tancredo be so eager to go to bat for Latino Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean, to the point where he’s introducing garbage legislation to short circuit jury verdicts and prison sentences he doesn’t agree with?
Update: They’re interested in “balance.” No agenda here at all.
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Am I crazy or would even attempting to put the Fairness Doctrine in place be a huge boon to the Republican party? It just doesnt even compute that the average American would accept it and it’s incredibly easy to defend the position that it is in fact “un-fair”
Dash on July 22, 2007 at 12:27 PM
Let’s have the fairness doctrine but only for T.V. and newspapers.
These fools at “the Race” are neo-tower of babel tools. They need to shut up.
One America, one people, one language.
Mojave Mark on July 22, 2007 at 12:34 PM
Romney can’t make up his mind, depending on the audience. Just don’t call him a flip-flopper because he’s “impossibly handsome“, or so Andrew Stephen, in his ‘absolutely fact-checked’ piece claims.
Entelechy on July 22, 2007 at 12:35 PM
Fairly typical.
If you oppose anything that the La Raza crowd tries to shove down your throat, you must be a racist or a hater.
Just the regular way to squash debate on the part of the reconquista movement.
quax1 on July 22, 2007 at 12:37 PM
Evil never rests and Americans who want their country preserved for their children can’t rest either.
When you promote a near stealth racist agenda organization don’t be surprised if millions of Americans rise up against the threat of foreign domination.
The fact that La Raza and others receive millions in taxpayer funds that help promote that racist dominion drive is as great a national betrayal as ever perpetrated against the American people.
Speakup on July 22, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Shamnesty exposed La Raza naked and it’s feeling the
heatcold.Entelechy on July 22, 2007 at 12:39 PM
Preserve America for Americans.
Just another group of Slaninist wannabes, why don’t they put some effort, any effort into preserving Mexico for Mexicans?
bbz123 on July 22, 2007 at 12:49 PM
Hate? I think it seems pretty hateful to sneak into a country illegally and refuse to speak the language and insist that that country assimilate to YOU.
Tony737 on July 22, 2007 at 12:50 PM
I’m always amused when a group that is called “the race” accuses others of being racists. I have to wonder what the reaction would be if a group of whites went around pushing a white agenda under the name of “the race”. Actually it takes no imagination at all. I KNOW what the reaction would be.
Guardian on July 22, 2007 at 12:55 PM
We did. And Congress felt it. BTW, it was by a vast majority, too.
IrishEyes on July 22, 2007 at 12:55 PM
Hillary: Hey Ese!
Tru2my2 on July 22, 2007 at 12:59 PM
Maybe we can just split the difference and force Rush, Hannity, and Ingraham broadcast in Spanish.
Blacklake on July 22, 2007 at 1:05 PM
Wave of hate? ?? Anyone see any legal “hispanics” being hunted down, harrassed, etc? I live in the Phoenix area and if that were going to happen anywhere, it would be here. The issue begins and ends with the word “illegal”, as Michelle tries to make clear again and again. Conservatives need to get that through their heads and stop pandering to racist groups like la raza. Everything about them, starting with the idea that they are THE race, is diametrically opposed to what our country is all about…
JWS on July 22, 2007 at 1:07 PM
Just what race is Spanish and Indian mix? Or is that French and Indian mix? Since pure native people are subject to prejudice in Mexico. I am curious just what race La Raza is talking about. Maybe it is the Pan American Road Race.
Zelsdorf Ragshaft on July 22, 2007 at 1:11 PM
It’s not a wave of “hate“.
It’s a wave “goodbye“.
To those who scoff at the nation’s security laws.
It’s waving, not drowning.
(To paraphrase the poet.)
profitsbeard on July 22, 2007 at 1:13 PM
So, what’s it called when opinions are labelled and ranked by the appellations of “Caucasian” or “brown” and one is deemed less worthy than the other?
Decent people do not have to cower when this phoney charge of “racist” is being waved around. It’s cheap and dishonest. Most of the people pouring into the USA from other countries are “brown” of some shade or another, desiring a fresh start, a future that they perceived they couldn’t get in their home countries. They are not demanding that they or their children speak Hmong, Urdu, Swahili, Wanga, Hausa, Susu,Pigin, French, Portuguese, Tamachek, Woloof, Soninke, Yoruba, Thai, Ibo … get it? They came to America to learn and flourish in English; to make their future as new people, Americans, with American dreams.
La Raza, The Race, meaning a particular and narrowly defined “race” of Central American Hispanic Indians, preaches anti-American, isolation-istic and tribalistic politics. Ask any other Third World immigrant and discover that’s precisely what they wanted to flee.
Anyone who throws racist terms around in an aggressive manner should be the one rebuked, not the recipient of the smearing threats.
naliaka on July 22, 2007 at 1:20 PM
Diaz-Balart’s comments about preserving Spanish are pretty funny. If you happen to wander through his district, you’ll be hard-pressed to find a shopkeeper or waiter who speaks competent English.
SWLiP on July 22, 2007 at 1:20 PM
Please explain to me why this is important. Why does the Spanish language have to be emphasized, apparently over English, in America, an English-speaking country? The whole argument just screams, “Don’t assimilate! We’d rather waste as much time yapping about emphasizing Spanish as it would take to learn English.” I think I’ll just go to Spain, make people learn English for me and then start preaching about how “important” it is to to emphasize the English language and pass it on to our grandkids and if you don’t learn English for me in your country, you’re racist. Maybe that’s why groups like La Raza seem to get their way so often, their argument is so ridiculous, you can’t even argue back.
hollygolightly on July 22, 2007 at 1:22 PM
La Raza is nothing BUT a racist organization.
Having grown up in south Florida during the fifties and sixties, I well recall the “Latinos” who came to this country before and after “Fido” Castro. Many of the Cubans wanted to return and overthrow Castro, but non-Cubans and other people from Central and South America were eager to become Americans (of the U.S. variety). They were legitimate immigrants, not a bunch Spanish speaking, Al Sharpton wannabes.
BTW, isn’t the motto of The Race (La Raza), “For the race, everything. For those outside, nothing.”?
oldleprechaun on July 22, 2007 at 1:23 PM
The brutality of history makes much more sense when viewed in the light of contemporary demagoguery.
Woahhs on July 22, 2007 at 1:24 PM
In other words it is important that they stay connected to the language of those who conquered, killed, enslaved, robbed and oppressed them rather than assimilating into and accepting the culture of a nation they flock to because they are better treated here and have a higher standard of living here than they do in their native countries. And his being a republican makes it all the more poignant. Not another dime to the RNC, RNCC or any other national republican organization until butt weasels like him are at the least marginalized and ignored for their desire to destroy the culture of the nation that embraced them when they were rejected by their native lands.
deepdiver on July 22, 2007 at 1:24 PM
La Raza, The Race, meaning a particular and narrowly defined “race” of Central American Hispanic Indians, preaches anti-American, isolation-istic and tribalistic politics
—-
When I say anti-American, I mean the American Dream - ANYONE can make it by the virtue of hard work, good living and willingness to take risk to build something new.
La Raza hates this concept - preferring to put chains on the Dream by demanding special status by virtue of being from ONE exclusive ETHNIC group and denigrating all others. It’s the antithesis of the American Dream, therefore is truly and correctly labelled, anti-American.
naliaka on July 22, 2007 at 1:25 PM
Racist pig…I can’t understand why society doesn’t treat them like KKK members….
Tim Burton on July 22, 2007 at 1:26 PM
“In other words it is important that they stay connected to the language of those who conquered, killed, enslaved, robbed and oppressed them
deepdiver on July 22, 2007 at 1:24 PM”
Exactly! Where’s the bile reserved for the nation of SPAIN who set up the whole South American hierarchy in the first place? Just more proof of the dishonesty that permeates this radical political movement.
naliaka on July 22, 2007 at 1:28 PM
The idea that logical, intelligent, patriotic American citizens even have to have this (and other) argument is absurd and pathetic. This is just one more “issue” that will facilitate things coming to a head. Our enemies within, including the libs, and outside of our borders, severely underestimate the will of the patriotic…
JWS on July 22, 2007 at 1:31 PM
The defeat of the Shamnesty bill was a huge victory. These advocates are now venting their anger and telegraphing punches. Its all or nothing now for the US to retain its soverignty. I am going to initiate a voter registration drive aimed at the vast numbers of the fellow countrymen who need to participate in the election process. I was thinking major league sporting events and nascar is probably a sizable resource.
sonnyspats1 on July 22, 2007 at 1:31 PM
naliaka-
You left our one word:
“…this radical political Power movement.”
Anything device that prys open the cashbox of your opponent for your ends is tool of Power.
Crying over “racism” (when they are no race, themselves) is disingenuous to the point of self-parody.
But nobody’s laughing (in the mainstream political realm), they’re all such chickens*ts.
A power grab so naked, and we get called “racists” for trying to prevent a national pickpocket.
profitsbeard on July 22, 2007 at 1:36 PM
I don’t understand how it’s a wave of hate. How is it considered hateful to not want your country invaded with illegal immigrants? It’s expensive and dangerous. That’s what irks me so much. For me personally, my problem is with illegal immigration, not legal immigration, and I haven’t heard a single person here say they feel differently about that. How is it racist to just want immigrants to do things the right way? Not just one race of immigrants, all immigrants. Is that one basic concept so hard for groups like La Raza to understand?
hollygolightly on July 22, 2007 at 1:37 PM
If the “Fairness Doctrine” ever gets passed, it will cause a complete media migration to the internet.
Joshua P. Allem on July 22, 2007 at 1:43 PM
as Clayton Bigsby said ” If you have hate in your hart let it out “
News flash
the racistI mean la raza. It is my god given right to hate you for any reason I want. I don’t hate you because your brown La Raza , I hate you because your are actively trying to feed me a S#*@ sandwich and you think I should smile and say thank you .Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.
Mojack420 on July 22, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Boohoo hoo freakin’ hoo! La Raza…La Racist!
SouthernGent on July 22, 2007 at 1:56 PM
Oh I see. This racist hate group does not like speech that it considers hateful, which is anyone who disagrees. If they don’t like hate speech, turn off Telemundo.
pat on July 22, 2007 at 2:03 PM
Good for Tancredo. He won’t be on the ballot but he is a true patriot on the front line of the border war.
Yea, it would come as a surprise to our Hispanic friends that we are uncomfortable with them…but there are some Hiss-panic people I am uncomfortable with and La Raza (and pandering demagogues like HRC) are among those who cause me to fear for the future of this country.
Thanks for posting this AP.
Christine on July 22, 2007 at 2:06 PM
“At the end of the day, we believe people need to take sides,
No they don’t. As far as they are concerned there is only one side: Their side.
SIJ6141 on July 22, 2007 at 2:18 PM
Probably because they’re sellouts. Or Tancredo is posturing, maybe using them to advance his career. We know the usual responses from the usual suspects when we try confusing an important issue with truth.
La Raza and other, similar special-interest groups wouldn’t know a real threat when they see one–like an organization that turns airliners into missiles. Or drug cartels that use other Latinos for mules. Or drug dealers that turn young Latinas into crack whores who trade their bodies for product.
Gee–did that sound racist?
Liam on July 22, 2007 at 2:18 PM
Looking forward to hearing Hil’s Spanish accent.
petefrt on July 22, 2007 at 2:23 PM
Personally, I’m hoping she’ll sound like Senor Wences.
ReubenJCogburn on July 22, 2007 at 2:25 PM
Can’t say I disagree with that piece of garbage legislation.
Yes, I know, the precedent it sets is bad, and the ends shouldn’t justify the means.
I’ll admit to believing that they do in this case. Guilty as charged.
Not that the bill stands a prayer of passing.
Also, am I the only one who finds it absolutely hilarious that a group whose name translated means “The Race” would ever dare accuse anyone else of being racist?
Hypocrisy on the left yet again. Usually it is slightly less blatant. Just slightly.
Hawkins1701 on July 22, 2007 at 2:36 PM
A clear case of projection. The only ‘wave of hate’ is that which La Racist has been spewing for many years.
infidel4life on July 22, 2007 at 2:37 PM
Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart has just been entered into the Guiness Book of World Records as the world’s worst idiot.
In talking to one of my customers (husband and wife)awhile ago who are legal immigrants from Mexico, I commented on their fluent English.
They then proceeded to inform me that the best education in Mexico is received from private schools where everything is taught in English from kindergarten up.
They continued with {{with teary eyes}} in describing how proud they were of there son who had received a full college scholarship from the U.S.A. because of his musical skills and top-of-his class merits.
However they still hated Bush….wait,.. wait just a f****ng minute.. I thought Bush was the Mexicans friend!!!!
So therefore ladies and gentlemen, I am entering the hypocritical ie: La Rasa type Hispanics into the Guiness Book of World Records for the worst Hypocrites.
Mcguyver on July 22, 2007 at 2:44 PM
Somehow, I just don’t think the race card is as effective with Latinos as it is with Blacks. Latinos have assimilated quite well in America.
bloggless on July 22, 2007 at 2:47 PM
No, you’re not - several commenters mentioned too.
Entelechy on July 22, 2007 at 2:52 PM
This is rich. The same ilk as MEChA, the Nation of Islam, and the Ku Klux Klan wish to talk to us of “hate.”
Ryan Gandy on July 22, 2007 at 2:57 PM
They could not have said this with a straight face
EricPWJohnson on July 22, 2007 at 3:06 PM
“Why, per La Raza’s “logic,” would an allegedly inveterate Latino-hater like Tom Tancredo be so eager to go to bat for Latino Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean…?”
That’s where the self-hatred part comes in, right?
JM Hanes on July 22, 2007 at 3:16 PM
I’m all for that. La Raza is in for a rude awakening. When you can’t win the argument start calling names. Unfortunately our PC culture keeps many from speaking out against such racist rancor. Thankfully not this bunch!
Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream that everyone would be judged by the character of their heart, not the color of their skin. Racism comes in all colors (unfortunately).
Question for La Raza, “How does Mexico deal with illegals coming across their southern border?”
Ordinary1 on July 22, 2007 at 3:20 PM
hollygolightly on July 22, 2007 at 1:37 PM
Oh they understand, it’s just propaganda, a weapon as it were in their reconquesta. Oh and yes, they are deadly serious about that reconquesta thing.
doriangrey on July 22, 2007 at 3:43 PM
Viva Tancredo!
The Race Card on July 22, 2007 at 3:44 PM
They want balance? I’m with that, do not give my tax money to any racist organization.
That means all of them, including La Raza and MALDEF.
Speakup on July 22, 2007 at 3:44 PM
If the other D.C. Madam submits the Fairness Doctrine for consideration, she’ll hand the conservatives a gift on a platinum platter for the ‘08 run.
Entelechy on July 22, 2007 at 3:47 PM
http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/42500/
As with many things it is not as clear cut as some would like to think.
Bradky on July 22, 2007 at 3:51 PM
La Raza hates the rule of law. La Raza is a hate group.
La Raza (The Race) is a racist group.
The DOJ should list La Raza as a racist hate group. La Raza should be denied all federal funds.
I don’t think we should be comfortable with the fact that the United States Government responds to what is largely a wave of hate and racism from La Raza.
jaime on July 22, 2007 at 3:51 PM
That is basically correct. However there is a virulent strain of anti-Americanism currently infecting recent immigrants and their kids.
Santa Ana, Cudahy, Vernon, Huntington Park are all cities in Los Angeles which function almost entirely en espanol. The majority of people speak and live their lives in spanish. Local governments ignore immigration laws. Municipal ties to local gangs are prevalent. And “hate” crimes are not uncommon.
The percentage of assimilated latinos is very high. Latinos have always been romanticized by Americans and responded with great patriotism. But the sheer magnitude of illegal immigrants has created a serious imbalance in what was once a staunchly Americanized community. And since there are many familial ties to the newly arrived, many previously assimilated latinos have split their allegiances between two countries.
Think about it. Many illegal immigrants are from rural Mexico. These areas are still living decades behind us. What can we expect when we import millions of their citizens into our areas. Cities like LA and Chicago have problems managing the influx. What happens to a place like Knoxville? Denver?
The Race Card on July 22, 2007 at 4:02 PM
* Santa Ana is actually Orange County. But So Cal is essentially one sprawling metropolis with zero open space between cities.
The Race Card on July 22, 2007 at 4:03 PM
LULAC = MEChA = MALDEF = NAACP = KKK = Nation of Islam = Gente Unida = ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..RACIST HATE GROUPS!!!!!!
NO MORE TAX MONEY FOR THESE RACIST HATE GROUPS!!!!
DfDeportation on July 22, 2007 at 4:10 PM
And as a longtime resident here, I can attest that the demographic increase in latino population over the last 20 or so years is mind boggling. Many areas that were predominantly white working/middle class 20 years ago are now ALL latino. The cultural shift has been dramatic. “White flight” is common. This is literally a massive slow-motion invasion.
infidel4life on July 22, 2007 at 4:35 PM
I don’t know much about the Minutemen, but something sure smelled fishy when an article about them in the Wall Street Journal appeared under the headline, “Anti-Immigrant Group Roils Heartland” or something close to that.
I guess “Anti-Illegal-Immigration Group” didn’t fit in the alloted space.
saint kansas on July 22, 2007 at 5:09 PM
infidel4life on July 22, 2007 at 4:35 PM
Try Phoenix. Assimilation? Whatever. It’s like another species here. English speaking only if absolutely necesssary. Wonderful culture? Leave something out on your property (yes we live in a nice “hood) for a couple of hours and it’s gone-it’s like they assume it’s for them if it’s not actually INSIDE your house. la raza wants to represent these people? That’s all anyone needs to know…
JWS on July 22, 2007 at 5:27 PM
saint kansas on July 22, 2007 at 5:09 PM
The Minutemen are nothing but concerned citizens who try to HELP the border patrol do their jobs. They are not vigilantes, as our wonderful presidente has called them. What a joke this all is…
JWS on July 22, 2007 at 5:31 PM
Attempting to confuse issues is a very common tactic among anti USA groups.
Trying to blend illegal migrants with legal immigrants and trying to project racist groups like the KKK onto pro America activists.
Besides being completely separate issues and movements; I haven’t yet seen hoods or masks on any legitimate sovereignty demonstrators.
But I have seen a good many open border, stolen continent, race baiter activists wear bandito scarf masks and then intimidate, threaten and in some cases assault Americans who dare to stand up for law and order.
Disagreeing with the home invasion theft of our entire nation does not qualify us for abuse.
We will not go quietly into that good night at the sacrifice of our children’s’ future.
Speakup on July 22, 2007 at 5:33 PM
i Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada !
i Viva La Raza !
i Viva EL Presidente’ Jorge Boosh !
SilverStar830 on July 22, 2007 at 5:37 PM
saint kansas on July 22, 2007 at 5:09 PM
Just re-read what I wrote re your comment. Was not attacking you…
JWS on July 22, 2007 at 5:41 PM
So, we, the American public, cannot call our elected officials and demand our voices to be heard because this is considered hate speech. At the same time, American citizens AND illegal aliens are demanding their voices be heard AND that illegal aliens, law breakers, be allowed to continue to break the law.
What the hell kind of
logicidiocy is that????madmonkphotog on July 22, 2007 at 5:44 PM
Remember the direct Spanish 800 number that goes straight through to government offices?
Apparently that’s not unfair or biased in any way.
We’re supposed to be glad Spanish speakers have the advantage in getting their message through, aren’t we?
Speakup on July 22, 2007 at 5:54 PM
Bradkytroll at 3:51 PM - I followed your “not as clear cut as some would like to think” link and saw “‘La Raza,’(meaning ‘the people’ or ‘community’)…is easily mistranslated.”
Mistranslated? I checked the dictionary: people: pueblo, gente, personas, ciudadanos, habitantes, familia, antepasados, seres - no “raza”. community: comunidad, sociedad, vecindaro - no “raza”. raza: race, ancestry.
Bradky, they’ve nuanced your brain to the point where you’ll accept anything you feel like you should accept.
eeyore on July 22, 2007 at 6:09 PM
Obviously you didn’t take the time to read the rebuttal to the representative’s accusations. You want to believe and all the evidence in the world is not enough.
As you pointed out there are variations in the translations. You choose to pick the most sinister of these — read the material on the rebuttal.
Bradky on July 22, 2007 at 8:09 PM
The baby boomers mounted zero resistance to that whole thing. They essentially figured, “What the heck, they’ll work for cheap,” never giving a second of consideration how the state would end up for their kids. Most of the ‘white flight’ has to do with the skyrocketing cost of housing and high taxes, I would say though. This state is run so poorly it’s unbelievable. Can you believe that under Schwarzenegger, this state is now 6 times more in debt than under Gray Davis?
PRCalDude on July 22, 2007 at 8:45 PM
It would be worthwhile to identify which “Raza” is intended. I was under the impression it was “Aztec.”
Not “Mayan” or “Toltec” or “Olmec” but the tribe that CONQUERED them and sacrificed their men and enslaved their women.
That would make it interesting wouldn’t it? Don’t seem to include either ANY of the North American “Indian” tribal groups which, if one wants to insist on the term, do not resemble “racially” and definitely NOT ETHNICALLY nor LINGUALISTICALLY the Aztecs at all. That would be the Apaches, Navajos, Cree, uh … Cherokee, Iroquois etc. etc., WHO may well have been unwilling targets of the aggressive empire-grasping, sacrifical-hunting Aztecs, as archeological and historical research broadly hints at - given that Aztec raiding parties went far afield to collect prisoners for the temple sacrifices.
Is this the ancient Empire La Raza is talking about? No thanks! “Caucasians” won’t be the only group not interested. ALL of the ancient Aztec sacrifices were “brown” apart from a few of the unlucky Spanish Conquistadors who were snagged during the harrowing running battle that was the ESCAPE FROM MEXICO CITY (catchy, huh? Mel Gibson - you interested?)
naliaka on July 22, 2007 at 8:58 PM
The Meso-American Indians (Aztecs, Maya, et al) had little contact with the North American indians because of the desert that laid between them and teh lack of animal transportation to cross it. It’s really hilarious when ‘the Race’ makes a claim on the entire North American continent because they never occupied it in the first place. But if they want to keep pushing a racial agenda, sooner or later other races will reciprocate. It won’t be pretty, but that’s what will happen, especially if the economy turns south for a number of years like during the Great Depression. Things have been relatively calm during this entire invasion thus far because the economy has prospered. Take that away, and oh boy.
PRCalDude on July 22, 2007 at 9:03 PM
The other disturbing thing about these race groups is their paranoia: everything is a conspiracy to suppress them. When you read their websites, a lot of what they say has the same tone as what jihadists say. It’s the same paranoia, and many of the same calls for violence veiled language of freeing themselves from ‘oppression.’
PRCalDude on July 22, 2007 at 9:08 PM
PRCalDude on July 22, 2007 at 9:03 PM
Hehe.
Have begun to wonder recently why the North American tribes were so skittery when the settlers first met them - almost as if they’d been cast out, running for their lives a generation or two before and were still living cagey lives, on the move, and very fearful of strangers. The huge stepped pyramid Cahokia Mound in E St Louis makes one stratch the head - an earthern design like the stone temples found far south in the Meso-American regions.
The bland explanation of the Mesa Verde “abrupt depopulation” as “maybe their crops didn’t grow well?” isn’t holding up anymore with discovery of charring and evidence of cannabalism. A village is “abruptly depopulated” when it’s captured, sacked, and burned - with captives marched off elsewhere.
Just speculation. But it is a fact that a big, aggressive, quite developed empire existed just to the south, that had an appetite for human sacrifices that couldn’t be met locally.
naliaka on July 22, 2007 at 9:17 PM
naliaka,
I wouldn’t make too much of the temples. ‘Ziggurats’, as they were called, existed all over the ancient near East long before the Meso-American temples. Since Babel, man has been perpetually trying to ascend to God, and tons of peoples have made such things. However, the meso-Americans and North American indians were quite isolated from one another. The Aztecs would have never been able to mount an overland campaign without horses, especially across the desert. But native North American tribes probably engaged in such things. The takeaway is, the Meso-Americans currently invading our country have no more claim to the continent than the Russians. We were born here. It’s ours. Our politicians seem hellbent on pushing the entire country into some form of Balkanized tribalism. It’s picking up steam. It hasn’t reached a head.
PRCalDude on July 22, 2007 at 9:39 PM
I guess “THE RACE”(ist), doesn’t mind when 10’s of thousand go on their little May Day March to make their point. Then they have the devil to complain about our talk radio.. And gee, I wonder why its always on May Day.?
Legions on July 22, 2007 at 10:20 PM
No, but I heard Kurt Russell was….
Tim Burton on July 22, 2007 at 10:52 PM
Arnold sure turned out to be a socialist RINO, and the state legislature has been dominated by lefty socialists for many years now. Even without the illegal invasion this state would still be going down the tubes.
infidel4life on July 22, 2007 at 11:03 PM
La Raza isn’t reacting to hatred…they’re inciting it.
James on July 22, 2007 at 11:11 PM
PRCalDude on July 22, 2007 at 9:39 PM
Not sooo sure. Did a dig years ago at Cahokia and there was plenty of talk about possible trade, even thru arid zones, with Central America and the pyramid mounds have many similarities with the southern temple shapes, just in cheaper dirt. If people ran trade up thru the Sahara, which is more barren and dune-covered, by moving from oasis to oasis, then the Meso-Americans were quite capable of doing the same thru the Northern Mexico and Southern US desert zones, even on foot. There’s water and game enough along the way to make it, through various routes that could take bands into SOuthern Cal, Arizona, Texas, Louisiana and so forth.
At the moment can’t say 100%, but the trek isn’t impossible by any means. People find ways to get around if they want to. Can’t say it couldn’t have happened. It was feasible.
naliaka on July 22, 2007 at 11:23 PM
The trade through the Sahara relied on camels. There was minimal contact across the Sahara before the domestication of the camel. Meso-Americans had no pack animals whatsoever. The closest thing was the llama, and it was located in the Andes.
I’m not saying they didn’t have contact with the North American indians, I just don’t think it was subtantive.
PRCalDude on July 23, 2007 at 12:12 AM
We really don’t know how much trade existed, that’s true. If there were primarily raiding parties, there wouldn’t be much to carry either way to leave a trace behind for us to find. The captives would be forced to carry anyway - and trading objects wouldn’t be the point, just bringing back captives for sale and sacrifice. A few raids like that, and any Indian tribe nearby would make itself scarce at the first hint of a raiding party. It may have been too difficult to press too far north trying to pursue fleeing tribes across the Great Plains, for example.
I don’t know if Meso-Americans carried on their heads like most Africans or on their backs? (Bucking the trend, Kikuyus of Kenya use a head strap and carry on their backs, bent over).
Anyway, it’s fun to chat about it and speculate.
naliaka on July 23, 2007 at 12:50 AM
We do know for a fact that the Aztec’s neighbors hated their guts. So much so that they were delighted to assist the arriving Conquistadors, against the Aztecs.
naliaka on July 23, 2007 at 12:53 AM
Maybe we should set up a “deport them now’ chapter in Mexico City.
saiga on July 23, 2007 at 9:54 AM