NYT: Billing records show Fred did lobby for abortion group; Update: Pro-Fred blogger apologizes to LA Times
posted at 8:44 am on July 19, 2007 by Allahpundit
Patterico beat me to the punch. What on earth was Mark Corallo thinking when he told the LA Times no way nuh uh never happened when he didn’t know that for a fact? Did the campaign even think to check the billing records? If not, or if they couldn’t, then why not just spin it in a more fact-friendly way from the outset? E.g., “He didn’t really want to lobby for them but he was new at the firm and felt obliged to do whatever they asked at first” or “His profound moral opposition to abortion didn’t calcify until he reached the Senate, as his voting record bears out.” Now, instead, they look like liars. Flashback:
Thompson spokesman Mark Corallo adamantly denied that Thompson worked for the family planning group. “Fred Thompson did not lobby for this group, period,” he said in an e-mail…
Corallo, the spokesman for Thompson, was asked Friday about the board minutes and the five people who said they recalled Thompson accepting the lobbying assignment. He responded in an e-mail, saying that Thompson “may have been consulted by one of [his] firm’s partners who represented this group in 1991.”
Corallo said it was “not unusual for one lawyer on one side of an issue to be asked to give advice to colleagues for clients who engage in conduct or activities with which they personally disagree.”
And now compare today’s Times:
Billing records show that former Senator Fred Thompson spent nearly 20 hours working as a lobbyist on behalf of a group seeking to ease restrictive federal rules on abortion counseling in the 1990s, even though he recently said he did not recall doing any work for the organization.
According to records from Arent Fox, the law firm based in Washington where Mr. Thompson worked part-time from 1991 to 1994, he charged the organization, the National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association, about $5,000 for work he did in 1991 and 1992. The records show that Mr. Thompson, a probable Republican candidate for president in 2008, spent much of that time in telephone conferences with the president of the group, and on three occasions he reported lobbying administration officials on its behalf…
The billing records from Arent Fox show that Mr. Thompson, who charged about $250 an hour, spoke 22 times with Judith DeSarno, who was then president of the family planning group. In addition, he lobbied “administration officials” for a total of 3.3 hours, the records show, although they do not specify which officials he met with or what was said.
Patterico notes that Fred himself was careful all along to use the “lawyers don’t always agree with their clients” defense — which is weak in the context of an issue as morally important to the base as this one but beats lying, at least — and Corallo backed off his earlier blanket denial a few days after the LAT story broke, telling Politico, “He has no recollection of doing any work for this group. And since he was of counsel and not a member of the firm, it was not unusual for the firm’s partners to trot their clients in to meet him, get his views and even some advice.” (As Patterico notes, incredulously, they trotted people in for 19 hours?) But meanwhile, a meaningless story that should have been defused the first day suddenly has oxygen again 11 days later. And his third-tier opponents, at least, are already taking advantage.
Eh, I doubt it’ll matter. Pro-lifers have nowhere else to go realistically among the top candidates. Still, as Patterico says, “To me, the controversy over Fred Thompson’s alleged lobbying for an abortion rights group has little to do with his views on abortion, and more to do with his honesty.” Exit question: Does it? Or does it prove what his aides have been saying about the campaign not being ready for primetime yet, which is why they need to wait a while longer to declare? (Shortly after Labor Day, according to the Times.)
Update: Fred 29, Rudy 28.
Update: Nice job here by Joe Carter. He’s gone and violated the 12th Commandment — on the “Blogs For Fred” site, no less!
[T]hose of us on the front lines of the campaign are putting our integrity on the line whenever we defend our (still unannounced) candidate. When a spokesman for Thompson speaks on his behalf, we need to be able to trust that the message is honest and accurate. It also needs to be conveyed clearly, and not require the nuance of a DC lawyer to differentiate between fact and supposition.
I claimed that the LAT article was a “hit piece”, when the basic premise was later confirmed to be true. I implied that that the people from NFPRHA might be lying, only to find that their central claim–that Thompson lobbied for the group–was largely true. I may not agree with their motives, but it was wrong of me to unfairly malign the LAT and the NFPRHA leaders. I owe them both an apology.
I don’t like being wrong. I don’t like having to apologize to abortion advocates. And I really don’t like finding I put my own integrity in question.










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I can always count on Enrique to reach the most absurd conclusion possible from any given set of facts.
Is it possible that “social cons” aren’t responding to his southern accent but to his obvious change of heart on abortion? If Rudy had a similar epiphany I’d feel a lot more favorable to his candidacy. And, hey, that goes for Hillary too.
John on July 19, 2007 at 1:26 PM
I didn’t think he could be bought so cheaply. My mistake.
tommylotto on July 19, 2007 at 1:27 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:22 PM
You apparently don’t remember the Reagan era very well. He started as a governor so he had a voting record, and his stand as a staunch anti-communist was well-known. The fact that he was an actor brought out much of the same attacks that Fred is getting now. Also, the fact that he was married once before caused the left to hit him pretty hard. He was viewed as a radical who would destroy the planet with a nuclear war with the USSR. When he went against Carter, he stood in stark contrast to the wimp that brought about long gas lines and enabled modern radical Islamic terror.
We have a clear choice now, and the fact that the MSM-DNC-Hitlery complex is hitting him every day only shows that the left is really scared that he could win, so they do what they always do – attack, so that we can set upon ourselves (like we are) and eventually end up with some lukewarm milk-toast wimp that Hitlery will easily beat.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 1:28 PM
No, it makes you a lawyer… so yeah, I guess I agree.
The issue at hand was denial of federal funding to clinics that provided abortion counselling. Forgive me for not feeling the outrage.
His campaign did screw the pooch on addressing the initial story, but given that this was some 15 years ago and before he was elected Senator where he consistantly voted on the pro-life side I don’t see this as more than a momentary blip on the radar.
Hollowpoint on July 19, 2007 at 1:29 PM
For you he is less tainted, but you and I have different views on what makes up a core conservative. That’s fine.
When a non-candidates official spokesman makes a comment attributing it to said non-candidate, and the aforementioned non-candidate does not disavow the previously stated comment attributed to him by his official spokesperson, that IS a direct quote from the non-candidate.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:32 PM
That would be a whole lot more believable if Mitt wasn’t branded a flip flopper for also having a change of heart on the exact same position.
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 1:33 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:24 PM
Only if you can explain using terms you haven’t used only a thousand times.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 1:33 PM
Tommy,
I have never lobbied for a position that I disagreed with. That would raise ethical concerns in my mind.
So, if a client asks you to lobby for a position that you disagree with, you refuse services? And this is a standard practice in Washington? Is the sky still blue in this world of yours?
Seriously man, lawyers do what people pay them to. I can’t believe that you think that this makes them unethical.
Tman on July 19, 2007 at 1:34 PM
I remember all that from the general, but I don’t remember the issues that EricPWJohnson mentioned. Unless you can shed some light on the points he mentioned and what he was thinking, please, lets us work this out.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:37 PM
No, we don’t know that he actually said that. We know that Corallo claimed it. But Corallo has already made demonstrably false claims, and should be fired for it.
Fred needs to take advantage of this opportunity to step up, say that he hadn’t recalled the work, reiterate that he confirmed by checking with Sununu that he hadn’t lobbied him, that he didn’t believe based on that recollection that it had happened, and that Corallo had overstepped his bounds by making a blanket denial of the type that he did.
Goosestep Corallo out the front door, because he’s clearly not ready for prime time. State the facts as we know them now, state his positions on the matter clearly, and keep working on building a team that isn’t going to make these kinds of unforced errors.
I see no proof whatsoever that can even come close to justifying the charge of lying being thrown at Fred. Corallo being stupid and wrong, sure.
Show me tape where Thompson himself states that he knows X to be true, and then subsequent tape of him denying that X is true, and you’ve got a case that he lies.
Until then, the concept of him not recalling the trivial of a level of work stands as fully plausible.
Barry Kearns on July 19, 2007 at 1:39 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:37 PM
The man was referred to as a doddering old man and because he was a staunch anti-communist, was accused of wanting to start a nuclear war with the USSR. He had also been divorced from his first wife, and in those days that had some stigma attached to it, so he was attacked for that. This went on for many years, from the very first time he ever ran for the Presidency. Finally, after four years of “peanut farmer” Jimmah Carter, the country had had enough.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 1:40 PM
AP has added an update ^^^^^^
RushBaby on July 19, 2007 at 1:41 PM
He is a credible threat to the conservatives attempt to get to the WH in 08. If he is nominated, and things are as they are today, fred? will lose in a landslide and we get at least 4 years of Hillary or some other socialist that is gonna take our guns, lose the war in Iraq, and saddle us with socialized medicine.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Or the spokesman is, you know… wrong.
But that obviously can’t ever happen.
Barry Kearns on July 19, 2007 at 1:42 PM
You mean Reagan, that union loving Democrat, who became that union busting conservative? That hypocrite.
right2bright on July 19, 2007 at 1:42 PM
In the lobbying context, yes I do.
Now If I were running a firm in Washington, I might want to keep a group of liberal lobbists and conservative lobbists at my firm so that I could serve any client that walked through the door, but as a lawyer actually counselling for 20 hours, I would not do it for a cause that I disagreed with. I would not use my leverage for a political cause that I did not want implemented.
All this aside, Fred lied.
tommylotto on July 19, 2007 at 1:42 PM
President William Clinton was disbarred and impeached. Pretty serious business wouldn’t you say?
Let me see, he was disbarred and impeached because he had sex with Monica Lewinsky? Wrong… It was because he lied about it!
You can try and spin this debate by making csdeven look like the bad guy, he may or may not be, but the facts point out that Fred may be a liar or stupid. Which one of those do you want as your nominee? The liar or the dumb one?
Please don’t tell me my choice is Hillary. She is not running in the Republican primary.
CharlestonCritic on July 19, 2007 at 1:42 PM
Jdawg
sometimes, on certain files secretarial time can be factored in as an expense secretarial overtime most certainly it depends on the contract but we are getting into whatifs
Fred will just keep stating his positions and following them up with votes
Reagan was rejected by the Republicans on a national scale many times he stuck with it never changed and well the rest is history
I’m getting this Ronald feeling
EricPWJohnson on July 19, 2007 at 1:43 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Well put, however, I don’t see how you believe that Fred is a credible threat to the movement – explain this, please. Also, with Hitlery’s negatives, I don’t see how she could win in a landslide.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 1:43 PM
Respectfully, you may continue to comment on it but I don’t accept your explanation of another persons point. So, I will not address you on his statement again. He is more than capable of explaining to me exactly what he meant.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:44 PM
right2bright on July 19, 2007 at 1:42 PM
You just proved my point. As he said, the Dems left him (over taxes, nat’l defense, etc) so he became a republican.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 1:44 PM
Tommy,
What SPECIFICALLY did Fred lie about?
Tman on July 19, 2007 at 1:47 PM
If the spokesman was wrong, why didn’t Fred correct him immediately after the initial story was run?
Spokesmen, good ones anyway, never, ever run with something before checking with the candidate or politician.
Slublog on July 19, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Really??? someone can say somthing I never said, and its a direct quote from ME???
Lets see… spokesman said Fred! said he didn’t remember it… then went on to say it didn’t happen… HIS CONCLUSION.
so that makes Fred! a Liar?
Once agian… spin away… but please find me ONE place where FRED! himself LIED?
I’m looking to vote for a candidate… not for his staff.
Romeo13 on July 19, 2007 at 1:48 PM
Actually, I am. There is a published decision by the California Court of Appeals saying that it is okay to call me a “Whore’s Son.” Even though my mama’s alway’s been a respectable woman. Also, Fred is a public figure and this campaign is a matter of public importance. If Fred were to file against csdeven (for instance), I’d take the case on a contingency and Fred would eventually pay my fee after an anti-SLAPP motion (SLAPP=Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation)
On the other hand, what logis stated on the prior Fred thread may very well have been actionable. ;-)
tommylotto on July 19, 2007 at 1:50 PM
Two things. Yes, an official campaign spokesman is generally considered the voice of the candidate. He speaks for the candidate. If he said it, it is exactly ths same as having the candidate say it.
Second, and this is the 3rd time I have put this quote up today.
It didn’t happen. That’s not an “Fred doesn’t recall”. There’s no wiggle room. It didn’t happen.
Accept it did.
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 1:56 PM
As of today, fred? refuses to be properly challenged. Even if he avoids the debates and gets the nomination, the Clinton smear machine WILL vet him and paint him as another Bush. This is a change election and the party out of power has the advantage because of the poor approval of the party in power, just as Reagan had in 1980. fred? has no record of experience and his TV persona, will be lessened quite a lot when he has to start taking solid positions that will contradict his TV image. Record will be a big issue. Rudy and Mitt! have great executive records and many fine accomplishments that fred? has to try to over come with rhetoric. The Clinton’s will exploit that to their advantage. That’s not to say Hillary will win in a walk over, but we have at least two other candidates that take that issue away from the Clinton’s and are no worse in any other area than fred? is now that we know he has nuanced his pro-choice past.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:58 PM
Your welcome.
A great leaders potential is often tempered by the heat and fire of critizism. Some of the great leaders have changed course, and some of our (conservatives) greastest spokespeople are ones that just a decade or two ago we would have hung. Tammy Bruce, David Horowitz are two that come to mind. In another life, you would have skewered them, they were (at least David was) the consummate liar and propagandist for the liberal movement. As they change course, and focus on what we, their supporters demand, they become better representatives for us. I couldn’t have been more disgusted with Horowitz and his past, and be more proud that he is out there now, pounding those useless liberals with his inside information and intellect. But ten maybe 20 years ago, you would have seen him taken apart on blogs (if they existed) for being a liar and hypocrite. A mans past can be a path, not a sentence.
right2bright on July 19, 2007 at 1:59 PM
Thanks for the update, AP. I’d like to add in the conclusion paragraph, if you don’t mind, for the “rest of the story.”
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 2:00 PM
right2bright on July 19, 2007 at 1:59 PM
20 years or so ago, David Horowitz was basically a communist. I’m glad he saw the light, tho. I agree with this sentiment:
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 2:02 PM
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 1:56 PM
Oh cr@p thats going to leave one hell of a bruise.
doriangrey on July 19, 2007 at 2:02 PM
If you can just answer these three questions…..
So, you’re willing to allow fred? to blame everything on his staff?
If that is the case, why hasn’t fred? come out and disavowed the staffers remark the minute he said it?
WHY is fred? staying silent on an issue that was attributed to him by a person who, in the world of political campaigns, speaks for the non-candidate?
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:04 PM
Sorry, but it sounds to me like the Spokesman did not quote Fred! correctly…
Why would anyone say, let alone a LAWYER say “I don’t remember it, it didn’t happen…” I can see one statement, or the other… but not both.
Now, the origional allegation was that he was supposed to Lobby Sunnunu on this… which according to both Fred! and Sunnunu did not happen. So that part “did not happen”…
Its the Libby thing all over again… if you dig and dig, eventualy you find someone who said somthing wrong…
Romeo13 on July 19, 2007 at 2:05 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 1:58 PM
I disagree that Fred is not being challenged. As has been pointed out, he is attacked on a daily basis, as has his wife. Granted, this latest attack could have been better dealt with if his staff had handled it better. These things happen.
No matter who the Republican nominee is, the Hitlery machine (with the MSM) will paint him as Bush III.
Records will count, and Fred does have a Senate voting record to defend. So does Mitt and Rudy, and personally, I’m not too thrilled with either of them, although they have all done some good things.
While I tend to support him, my tendency is to wait until he officially enters the race and takes on the other candidates in actual debate. That will seal it for me one way or another.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 2:06 PM
Actually, dorian, it doesn’t leave a mark at all. Fred said that days after the initial flat denial came out. Probably after realizing his former partner and the client themselves said that they had a clear memory of the lobbying and for Fred to deny it was “bizarre”.
No less bizarre is the constant spinning here. You would be much more well advised to take the advise of the Fred blogger, admit you are disappointed in Fred for not being forthcoming and honest.
It would be nice if you would also stop calling other candidates flip floppers for doing what Fred has done but I’ll take one step at a time.
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 2:07 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:04 PM
Obviously he’s not, he claimed he did not remember and then obviously ordered his spokes person to correct a misstatement.
doriangrey on July 19, 2007 at 2:09 PM
Lawyers do the darnedest things. They are just like everyone else, when caught in an uncomfortable position, they say things they shouldn’t to evade responsibility.
It’s not the lie, its the cover-up. Nixon was a lawyer, too.
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 2:11 PM
Pretty simple answer to all your questions… hes human.
Can you remember every meeting you had, and every person you talked to and what was said 15 years ago? Hes probably digging through HIS records trying to figure this out…
Add in that this is NOT a top priority with him (or shouldn’t be), he’s in the process of setting up his campaign… and you see some inaction ON THIS SUBJECT.
Your looking for things to be wrong… I’ll wait and see how he reacts.
Romeo13 on July 19, 2007 at 2:11 PM
Here’s your answer, taken straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.
I’ll just quote the relevant paragraph.
Whether you like the answer or not, it has been answered.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 2:11 PM
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 2:07 PM
The initial statement came from his spokes person Mark Corallo, not only did Fred come out and correct Corallo’s misstatement, he clearly required Corallo to correct it as well, so yea, its gonna leave a bruise.
You seriously need to put the crack pipe down, I have never called any candidate a flip-flopper.
doriangrey on July 19, 2007 at 2:13 PM
Interesting, you use X Presidents direct actions and quotes to counter my arguement that the spokesperson may have misspoke… just a tad different standard there…
Romeo13 on July 19, 2007 at 2:14 PM
When did Thompson correct the misstatement?
Slublog on July 19, 2007 at 2:15 PM
I guess the demogoguery pendulum swings both left and right. Sigh!
captivated_dem on July 19, 2007 at 2:16 PM
When I say “challenged” I mean he isn’t asked tough questions in hostile environments. I know you think that is a wise tactic, but it does mean he has not been challenged.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:23 PM
You guys are too much. Facts and timelines disappear with a wave of your hands.
Let’s see how this plays out, ok?
JackStraw on July 19, 2007 at 2:25 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:23 PM
That is, I think, due to his not being an official candidate yet. Once he actually announces, that will change in a hurry.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 2:26 PM
Two points…
1) The only thing that is obvious is that fred? isn’t in front of a camera, or a mic, disavowing his spokesman comment. I don’t know how it’s obvious that fred? ordered this when fred? supposedly ordered the first statement. You are cherry picking those statements that fit your agenda. Not good.
2) Which statement are we to believe from the same guy? That fred? did, or fred? did not? This staffer has lost all credibility from this point forward and until fred? clears this up personally, he’s culpable also.
Ya know, no one had the unmitigated gall to claim they wanted to hear freds? denial from his own lips because they don’t accept what spokesmen say on behalf of their boss. Yet, here we are, having a discussion that says we shouldn’t trust the same spokesman and that it’s all good.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:31 PM
Yes, that was a clever and subtle side-step statement by Fred, but the principle point here is that he is blurring the line between lawyer and lobbyist. Again, not by accident.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 2:35 PM
*sigh*
WHY is fred? not clearing up what his spokesperson said if what he said was not the facts. Your quote did not answer that question.
The issue being his flat denial.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:36 PM
Just doing my job hasn’t cut it since 1945. Besides that, he wasn’t a public defender were he was legally obligated to take a client.
You used to be just an anti-fred troll, now you’re an anti-fred troll who makes sense. I don’t like you anymore :P
Anyway it still comes down to the fact that I still don’t want Hillary or Rudy . . . Kinda like do you want someone who will slowly sell America out, or give it away right away. I just wish Newt had jumpped in before Fred!
- The Cat
MirCat on July 19, 2007 at 2:38 PM
Well, admittedly, when “you people” answer questions asked of others, it’s hard to keep it straight as to who said what.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:38 PM
“you people” was supposed to sound funny, but on further reflection, it fell flat.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:39 PM
From http://powerlineblog.com/archives/018278.php
And:
Just in case anyone really cares.
jdawg on July 19, 2007 at 2:41 PM
Can you recognize the fact that there is a difference from a lobbyist and a lawyer who is hired to consult or to lobby?
One is constrained by the ABA code of ethics, the other is not. IOW, a lawyer doesn’t get to stop being a lawyer when he is practicing as one.
I recognize many will see that as splitting hairs. But it’s a grounded fact for every lawyer. You don’t get to waive attorney/client communication on your own.
Even Tommylotto will agree with that one.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 2:41 PM
Keep reading my brother. I become the same lovable old troll many have come to loath. ;-)
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:42 PM
Can we take a breath for a minute?
I’m pretty good and “getting” obscure concepts and I’m not the average bear. Your explanation of lobbyists and the hair splitting they do is the exact reason why the regular Joe doesn’t trust lawyers and absolutely despise lobbyists. fred? is never going to change that perception, even though he is trying, so, the more fred? has to explain this, the worse it’s gonna get and eventually people are just going to shut him off.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 2:48 PM
Certainly and it is highly unlikely I would care, but Fred chose to stretch the umbrella to cover him with inference to John Adams and Abraham Lincoln.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 2:49 PM
ie he chose the battleground and therefore the distinctions are important.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 2:50 PM
He wasn’t trying to answer specifics in that article. The point is, he can’t waive the privilege, it’s not proper, and he’s not getting in the mud to do it.
I’m the one trying to explain it. Not Fred. So if you want to shut me off, hokeydoke. :-)
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 2:53 PM
csdevin:
Not a loather. You have spent alot of time, energy, and wordsmithing on this topic. I wasn’t this passionate about the amnestification of millions of illegals.
captivated_dem on July 19, 2007 at 2:54 PM
Ah, but the inference wasn’t to the men as presidents. It was to the those lawyers who ran for president, and how there’s nothing new under the sun. It’s not a credible argument, in other words.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 2:59 PM
Are we talking about the same thing?
He said don’t judge the clients of a lawyer because J. Adams defended the British troops. And he said that even Lincoln defended both sides of man vs. railroad cases.
Both are disingenuous in my opinion because neither addresses the reasons that those men took those cases. I didn’t take issue with it at the time because I had not, at the time, recently review Lincoln’s railroad cases.
But it was not about their qualifications for president, it was about clientèle. And he chose that to indirectly answer the pro-abortion lobby concerns.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 3:06 PM
I don’t want to shut you off. I just wanted to take your comment off into a different direction for a second without side tracking you for the rest of the htread.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 3:10 PM
Yes, we are talking about the same thing. Let me quote once more from Fred’s article to state my position.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 3:13 PM
True. Being the minority on the fred? threads affords me many opportunities to address many different people. Hence the repetitive nature of my comments. I don’t assume everyone reads all posts in a thread. I sure don’t. As a matter of fact, I rarely read any posts before I comment on the topic.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 3:15 PM
Ok CS, you’ll be happy to know I’m coming over to the dark side on this one ;) …this definitely needs to be addressed and explained by Fred! If it’s nothing,fine.But if he lied about it or tried to cover it up then that needs to be known too.
DCJeff on July 19, 2007 at 3:21 PM
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 3:15 PM
Bull$hit, its your obvious psychotic hatred of Fred that is driving you to spam the living cr@p out of every thread where Fred is even passingly mentioned,
your BS isnt fooling anyone
doriangrey on July 19, 2007 at 3:22 PM
As a matter of fact, I rarely read any posts before I comment on the topic.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 3:15 PM
I presume that includes posts, that I have made, that aren’t addressed to you specifically. As a newbie, I’m pretty much ignored. Must be my screen name.
captivated_dem on July 19, 2007 at 3:24 PM
Good. We’re starting from the same place then. Just so we are clear, I agree that to project a client’s views on to a lawyer is unfair and unjust.
Having said that, my point is this: Fred appeals to the memory of great lawyers (not lobbyists!) to answer the charge of the pro-abortion lobby work. And the effort is in my mind disingenuous. Adams took that case to legitimize the revolutionary movement, and Lincoln took his cases because of his beliefs, not for money’s sake.
I suggest that a lobbyist, while protected of course from the disclosure that you mentioned above, is a hired gun. Now Fred is clever here: he appeals to the love of our fore-fathers and tags himself in that vein with this:
but slips in this: I’ve had the opportunity to help small farmers in Tennessee, the Chief Justice of the United States, previously mentioned, and several folks in between, as well as a half dozen or so lobbying clients.
He takes a good and legitimate argument, and spreads it to cover any criticism of lobbying work, which while he may enjoy non-disclosure privileges, can not be seriously argued as
which he did.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 3:26 PM
apologies: the I’ve had the opportunity…should be quoted. Those are his words as well.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 3:27 PM
Fred? Thompson for President. He has the mismemory and misdirection of Clinton combined with a great Beltway insider knoweldge and the Absolute Moral Authority that comes with being a hollyweird celeb.
It’s the lying, stupid.
BKennedy on July 19, 2007 at 3:32 PM
No, you’re not ignored. I read everything you write. If you would just be more contentious and controversial 8-) you’ll get more responses. Ask CS.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 3:40 PM
But that is the point. Everyone is entitled to representation. Fair representation by an attorney who follows the rule of law. Every voice matters enough to be heard. What form the lobbying took or to whom, or what was said, cannot be construed as unethical on its face.
It’s a job that good attorneys take seriously. And I’ve never seen where Fred was accused of being a bad attorney.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 3:45 PM
Yeah. One mustn’t do that to me. I suffer from what our firm principal says is half-heimer’s disease. :)
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 3:47 PM
Oh, I am way cool with him.
The more abortions now the fewer liberals in the future.
TheSitRep on July 19, 2007 at 3:50 PM
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 3:26 PM
I brought this up in a thread a couple of days ago, but didn’t have the relevant quote to suppor it. Now I do. He seems to be trying to squeeze out of the lobbyist stuff by disconnecting his views with those of his clients, while at the same time latching on to the Chief Justice as some tangential evidence for his social con values. These two assertions are in conflict with one another. His history is primarily as a lawyer and lobbyist, and if he’s asking us to disregard some of it, we have to disregard all of it, absent compelling justification communicated by him at the time of his previous work.
Big S on July 19, 2007 at 4:02 PM
What’s the record for comments on a thread at hotair? How many of the top 10 are Fred threads?
Big S on July 19, 2007 at 4:04 PM
One immigration thread went over 1000, I think.
Slublog on July 19, 2007 at 4:06 PM
Actually, I know it went over 1000 – I just can’t remember what the subject of the thread was.
Slublog on July 19, 2007 at 4:08 PM
Heh. I don’t think we are arguing on the same point. I must not be articulating myself well.
Yes, everyone is entitled to representation, when accused of a crime; everyone is not entitled to a lobbyist. The quote of Roberts that Thompson uses is in regard to justice – Thompson is clearly trying to imply his work as a lawyer including his time as a lobbyist serves justice. The point of which is to absolve himself of any work that would be at odds with his platform.
Now you may believe that and if so, then here our conversation reaches the ‘agree to disagree’ point. But I believe that serving as a lawyer and serving as a lobbyist are not the same. And to equate the work of a lobbyist to Adams and Lincoln is not honest. But yet this is the functional purpose of his letter. In response to criticism of pro-abortion lobby work he calls on the memory of our most ethical lawyers.
Lobbying itself is not unethical, I agree. I also agree he has not been called a bad lawyer. But lawyer and lobbyist are not equal and he tries to put them under the same umbrella so as not to have to answer for anything done either services. A child abuser deserves a fair defense under the law, but he is not entitled to a lobbyist requesting less stringent laws from Congress.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 4:10 PM
The defeat of the bill – when cloture failed.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 4:11 PM
Yes, I agree and I find it distasteful.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 4:12 PM
Actually, the attorney client privilege only attached while you are in the course and scope of acting like a lawyer. The privilege does not attach just because you hire a lawyer to do a non-lawyer’s job like brick laying, drywall installation, surgery, contract murder, public relations (?), or lobbying(?). PR and lobbying might fall into a lawyer’s job and may be a gray area — but the privilege would only attach (if it attaches at all) to the consultation portion of the work. Thus, the 3.3 hours of contact with the administration officials would not be privileged.
tommylotto on July 19, 2007 at 4:21 PM
You’re probably right. The arguments are getting circular. Because my reponse is, I’d go right back to the distinction between a lobbyist who is not a lawyer and a lawyer who lobbies. A lawyer is always, always, always governed by the ABA code of ethics when he accepts a client, whether he or she is defending Ghengis Khan or suing Penthouse Magazine, or lobbying congress.
One cannot make the judgment that something is unethical on its face in the rule of law by whom one represents.
So, it’s agree-to-disagree time. It’s a principle I’m stuck on.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 4:29 PM
-NRO Editors
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 4:33 PM
No, I usually read all comments after my first post. I don’t always respond to those I agree with. Be patient, people want to get a feel for you as you comment on different subjects before they get too chummy. A few of the dems that come in here are just looking for a fight, but we have several that articulate their opposite views quite well. Of course, you will get the occasional HA conservative child type that loves to call names and insult people. Just ignore them and stay on point. Even I, as committed conservative as you can get, have to endure the filthy mouths of my own supposed conservative brothers…AND sisters, if you can believe that.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 4:37 PM
Is a lawyer acting as a lawyer when he lobbies, or as a lobbist? He might be a lawyer while back at the office consulting with the client. But when he is downing MaiTai’s with Sununu at Trader Vic’s he is not acting as a lawyer and no privilege should attach. Nor should he get a moral pass for his lobbying advocacy. It is not like representing a client in court as part of an adversarial system. When you lobby you are trying to change society. It’s not just one isolated dispute we are talking about.
tommylotto on July 19, 2007 at 4:40 PM
I’m not really a “newbie” and I’m ignored consistantly. Must be because I won’t engage the troll and I don’t have anything nasty to say. Seems to be that the nasty comments are the ones that get a response.
speed911 on July 19, 2007 at 4:41 PM
Sometimes people say things so thoroughly, that there really isn’t anything left to say. Instead of finishing your thoughts out, stop halfway and left others finish them for you. Then you can pickup from there.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 4:46 PM
I don’t believe that lobbying is exempt from the privilege, except as provided by federal law, and there’s a book called The Lobbying Manual, 3rd Edition that describes the duties, the laws, and the ethical guidelines of a lobbyist lawyer.
The privilege would attach if Fred were only acting as a consultant during the 19 hours. The 3.3 hours spent on lobbying would have to be disclosed as such per federal disclosure laws.
It’s not really a gray area, it’s an area governed by extensive federal guidelines in practice, and just glancing quickly at the ABA site, there is a lot of discussion about the lawyer lobbyist, both in that publication and in CLEs.
If you practice in a firm, ask the senior partners whether they would think it a good idea to discuss even gray areas of the privilege in order to promote yourself in a political campaign.
I’m not intimating your knowledge is less than theirs, but only that Fred is a 64-year-old lawyer, and they do things in a style that is very much different from, say, a ten-year partner or five-year associate.
It’s a matter of style as to how they were “raised,” so to speak, in the practice of law.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 4:47 PM
I can’t believe you people are still talking about this. Does anybody work? Let it go! It’s a non-issue! This will not change a single mind that was set on voting for Fred!. Move on.
Vaporman87 on July 19, 2007 at 4:47 PM
That’s what bothers me as well. Unless he really doesn’t remember it, which I find hard to believe, he should have just admitted it.
Esthier on July 19, 2007 at 4:48 PM
That’s not necessarily true.
Esthier on July 19, 2007 at 4:49 PM
Look guys, if lobbyists ever did get the same cover that attorneys get, it’ll only be because congress suddenly became inhabited by former lobbyists.
Lobbying is really just back room arm-twisting for a special interest.
Usually that special interest is not in the best interests of the people as a whole.
Usually the big money is with the special interest and not the people it works against.
Now, if I’m reading this right, is someone actually arguing the point that these special interest groups must be represented by mandate of federal law?
Lobbyists pick and choose their clients, and fred? always went to money before principle.
Now, is someone arguing that is not the case?
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 4:54 PM
As long as you feel comfortable, I’m happy. And, BTW, I agree. Lets see what he says.
csdeven on July 19, 2007 at 4:58 PM
Hypothetically, If Sununu were an expert and he was discussing his scope of duties, the privilege doesn’t attach. There’s caselaw to that effect.
If, however, Sununu was the objective of his client’s referral, it does attach. He’s acting within the scope of his duties as a lawyer. At least that’s how I see it.
Tennman on July 19, 2007 at 5:01 PM
When time permits I read every thread on this site (well sans some of the Paris ones), but I only comment on maybe half, the rest of the time I’m soaking in it. So not being quoted is not ignored, at least for me.
And if in generally agreement with someone I don’t generally respond, I just nod my head:) so as not to eat up bandwidth for no reason. I take the same approach for correcting my typos:) You’re not ignored.
Spirit of 1776 on July 19, 2007 at 5:03 PM
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