West Point grad finds Jesus, can no longer fight in Iraq
posted at 5:09 pm on July 17, 2007 by Allahpundit
I’d love to critique his reasoning for you but, as we’ve hashed out in the the religious threads many times before, I don’t quite grasp how he’s wrong. Feel free to do the job this American won’t do in the comments below, though.
“Jesus taught that I should bless those who curse me and not fight back against evil with force,” Brown wrote in court papers filed last week in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.
“So instead of paying back others with force, I am supposed to love everyone; killing others is not loving them,” he wrote…
According to court papers, Brown’s anti-war sentiment surfaced between 2004 and 2006, while he was stationed at Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Drum, N.Y. But it wasn’t until training in April 2006, at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif., that a religious aversion to force was cemented.
“Although it was only blank ammunition, I experienced what it would be like to kill another person,” Brown wrote, according to court papers. “It appalled me. And I found that it hurt my performance as an infantry officer. I realized that I could not protect my men.”
Since the Army’s initial rejection, Brown, a native of Spring, Texas, has been accepted to a seminary in St. Louis and plans to attend if the Army grants him an honorable discharge, Karpatkin said.
The mujahedeen, of course, use a different playbook.
Blowback
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In the words of Iris Dement
“God may forgive you, but I won’t Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don’t”.
D0WNT0WN on July 17, 2007 at 5:16 PM
You don’t love anyone by letting the killers run amok. You aren’t even loving the killers, because they’re better off dead, than digging themselves deeper and hotter pits in hell.
NellE on July 17, 2007 at 5:16 PM
Jesus, apparently, was not a proponent of preventing the deaths of others.
Guess that whole cross thing was just an exhibition.
Dip.
MadisonConservative on July 17, 2007 at 5:16 PM
Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s, render unto God what is God’s. When Moses found the idolators, those who did not return to the proper faith were executed. David slew Goliath.
Killing is not inherently against the wishes of the Lord. When you join the military you agree to do what you are ordered to do (rendering unto Ceaser). The US Military does not order killing for shits and giggles.
This sounds like that Asian wimp, Wutada or something, who joined the military just to make a big scene out of refusing to follow orders to go there.
This is a cop-out and a crock.
BKennedy on July 17, 2007 at 5:18 PM
It does happen.
Back in the 80s when I was a ROTC cadet, one of the seniors (already “on contract”) had a similar epiphany. After several interviews with a chaplain and with our commander, he was determined to be genuinely convinced. He was released from his obligation and separated from the service, no hard feelings.
Bear in mind, this was at Wheaton College in IL – an evangelical school, with about 100 ROTC cadets who saw no conflict between Christianity and military service. But there was tolerance for a different point of view… as long as it was a genuinely held belief.
Russ on July 17, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Yes, walk over, put your arms around them and tell them you found JESUS and you love them. Then, DUCK as the blade swings for your neck.
Hey, I am a JESUS freak and I will be the first to say, JESUS knew his enemies. Do the duty you swore to do and GOD will honor you. Using JESUS as a duck and cover is using HIS Name in vain. IMHO
On-my-soap-box on July 17, 2007 at 5:25 PM
That’s fine; He can serve out his time in Leavenworth on bread and water.
Also annul his bachelor of science we paid for.
TheSitRep on July 17, 2007 at 5:26 PM
and Jesus was not a Pacifist. That is Ghandi and Ron Paul.
jp on July 17, 2007 at 5:27 PM
SitRep, they don’t need to lock him up or take away his degree. Just make him pay back for his West Point education, like anyone else who quits after their second year at the USMA.
Shivv on July 17, 2007 at 5:28 PM
The reason that Captain Brown is wrong is that he refuses to oppose evil. Pacifism is a moralistic pose, not a superior morality. Pacifists support evil through their inaction, just as confederates of evil-doers support evil through their action. Giving yourself up to the knife of the enemy is not a noble act but simply suicide by jihadi.
Who was more moral in WWII: the soldiers who actively fought and defeated the Nazis and stopped the Holocaust or the pacifists at home who opposed all fighting and war? If you were in the waiting line for the ovens at Auschwitz, who would you hope would prevail, the soldiers or the pacifists?
If you were on United Flight 93 on Sep 11, would the most moral course be to turn pacifist, love your skyjackers, take no action, and allow them to crash the jet into the Capitol, killing hundreds of people? Or is the most noble course to fight for your life, for your fellow passengers, for your country, for your civilization – to fight that jet right into the ground to stop those evil bastards?
Simply put, pacifism facilitates evil. No moral person can accept inaction in the face of evil. You must fight it.
Tantor on July 17, 2007 at 5:29 PM
This is an article from the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ):
894. ART. 94. MUTINY OR SEDITION
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who–
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
TheSitRep on July 17, 2007 at 5:30 PM
Somebody give this kid a copy of “Sgt. York”.
Nethicus on July 17, 2007 at 5:30 PM
He can be transferred to other duties that don’t involve combat. There’s plenty of opportunity for him to fufill his obligations.
darwin on July 17, 2007 at 5:31 PM
890. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Any person subject to this chapter who–
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer; shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
TheSitRep on July 17, 2007 at 5:31 PM
“I did not come to bring peace but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
Thomas the Wraith on July 17, 2007 at 5:31 PM
As a Christian I have to say this. This guy is way off. Yes Jesus taught to love our neighbors as ourselves, and he taught of compassion for the poor. He also said to give to Cesar what is his. In other words to pay your country and not use Christianity as an excuse. Of course now we are getting into whether there is a Biblical basis for the separation of Church and State, but that is a whole other thing. In my opinion, this guy should be sent to Iraq, and if he doesn’t charged with desertion. I dunno, for some reason people like this make my blood boil. Just say you’re a Liberal and now object to the war on that basis. Don’t pull and an Andy Sullivan.
Canerican on July 17, 2007 at 5:32 PM
Just give him his discharge and send him the bill for whatever he cost taxpayers, its not worth wasting time with the guy if he’s become a pacifist.
Bad Candy on July 17, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Born Again
ChristianCoward.infidel4life on July 17, 2007 at 5:35 PM
The David and Mose points? They were Jewish, not Christian.
What about conscientious objection? Doesn’t it get any slack from anyone anymore?
harrison on July 17, 2007 at 5:35 PM
I’m going to second this one.
I don’t even get why it is complicated. This is after all, a religion that believes in hell. Clearly forgiveness and being freed of consequences are two different things.
Esthier on July 17, 2007 at 5:36 PM
Same God, Same Ten Commandments.
In fact, Moses had JUST gotten the “Thou Shalt Not Kill” tablet when he decided to slay the idolators. Fancy that.
BKennedy on July 17, 2007 at 5:38 PM
So was Jesus. In fact, so were the first Christians. Christianity was not, at that time, considered a new religion but rather a completion of their current one.
The New Testament does not abolish the Old Testament.
Sure, why not. But the guy is wrong on this one. He may be serious and if so, better learn now than while over in Iraq, but Christianity is not incompatible with a soldier’s life.
Esthier on July 17, 2007 at 5:38 PM
In the words of Mark Driscoll…
“A pacifist has a lot of difficulty reconciling pacifism with scripture.”
MoleOnABull on July 17, 2007 at 5:41 PM
Something about this doesn’t smell right. Who the heck is the “New York Civil Liberties Union,” and why did the press end up with this? Usually the military handles these situations quietly.
arkansasmike on July 17, 2007 at 5:42 PM
Let him go to seminary, then serve out his time as a chaplain. Not everyone has the same gifts or traits, let him use the ones God has given him to their best effect. I’m sure he could do plenty of good as a chaplain.
corbettw on July 17, 2007 at 5:43 PM
Couldn’t have said it better (about Jesus) than others have.
Also remember that when Jesus drove the money-changers out of the Temple, he didn’t do it with flowers and candy. (“Please, brother, if you don’t mind, could you not conduct business in my Father’s house?”) No, he didn’t say that.
These WWJD people annoy me–a Christian. If we could do what Jesus did, there would have been no need for Jesus in the first place.
And, yes, the officer should pay back the USMA for his education.
baldilocks on July 17, 2007 at 5:44 PM
The Bible says “murder”, not “kill”. The Hebrew words are different. Look it up.
Ortzinator on July 17, 2007 at 5:48 PM
He did it with a rusty chainsaw if I remember correctly…
Bad Candy on July 17, 2007 at 5:48 PM
I don’t agree with him, but if that is truly the way he feels right now, then give him peace. We don’t want him in the military, he is not an asset, however there seems to be areas that he could work in that does not involve shooting people. Maybe make him a cook and let him feed the hungry and the poor… which is about every military man.
right2bright on July 17, 2007 at 5:48 PM
Exactly, especially in Iraq, where — unarmed — he will soon get the opportunity to respond to evil in the manner that he chooses, properly informed by his understanding of the Living Word of God.
Jaibones on July 17, 2007 at 5:49 PM
Send this guy packing. The US Army doesn’t need people who don’t want to be there.
csdeven on July 17, 2007 at 5:50 PM
Correction, “Thou shalt not murder”. Big difference.
right2bright on July 17, 2007 at 5:51 PM
I feel for this bloke but if he is seriuos about it he should just volunteer to bring Christianity to the Muslims in Iraq.
SIJ6141 on July 17, 2007 at 5:51 PM
By the way, it cost more than $350,000 to produce a West Point grad back in 2004.
Tantor on July 17, 2007 at 5:51 PM
The Pope has just released a statement:
“See, if you had just worshiped me instead of the “Jesus” character and followed The Church, instead of what that “Bible” tells you, you wouldn’t have these problems!”
RightWinged on July 17, 2007 at 5:52 PM
First, we must correct an error. Some Bible versions we use may say “Thou shalt not kill…” but in fact a more accurate translation of it is “Thou shalt not do murder…”. It was a proscription against killing someone unrighteously, not to be confused with killing someone in defense of ones self or another, or killing during war (with the assumption that it was a ‘right’ war).
Christians serve not just in the military, but also as police, prison guards and in other professions where deadly force is sometimes justifiable and required. Police and military forces serve as an arm of the government. The Bible says of the civil leader: he is “an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer/evildoer,” “he does not bear the sword for nothing.” (Rom 13)
I have no quarrel with those who choose a life of pacifisim based on Biblical principles, but I do disagree with those who teach that you can not love, serve and follow Jesus and still be a soldier, police officer, military leader (etc.) or one who actively supports them. Serving in these ways is not the same as murder (though some in these positions have committed murder) and it is not prohibited by the Ten Commandments.
This is an EXAMPLE of one person’s struggle with this very question. Many thousands of people must struggle with this question, I chose this example to shed some light on how one Christian man came to terms with this dilemma in favor of fighting. This may not be the “right” answer for everyone, as we all have different paths to walk in God’s will.
Alvin Cullum York (1887-1964) tried to avoid the draft for WWI under the claim of being a “Conscientious Objector” (that’s someone who claims war is against their religious beliefs and therefore cannot participate). At first he had trouble reconciling the commandment of, “Thou Shall Not Kill“, and going to war.
He was allowed to go home and think about this dilemma. After serious soul searching, he decided to retract his objection. He attributed his decision to Matthew 22:21 “…Then sayeth he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things which are God’s.”
He actually became a great hero, in fact, he became the most decorated American in WWI. He said he decided to fight so that he might SAVE LIVES.
“York rose to the rank of Corporal and, during the final offensive in the Meuse-Argonne region, found himself facing the German machine gun nest with 35 machine guns at Chatel-Chehery. Armed with a Springfield rifle and a Colt .45 automatic pistol, he pushed out alone ahead of his depleted squad and began sniping at the Germans as they stuck their heads out of the nest to aim. He then killed six Germans who were sent to flush him out, then positioned himself at the end of the German trench and began shooting them as they stood in line in the trench, prompting their surrender. (Not mentioned in the citation is that a total of 25 Germans were killed before the remaining 132 gave up the fight.) The highest-decorated American of World War I, York returned home with, in addition to the Medal of Honor, a promotion to Sergeant, the French Croix de Guerre and a gift of 400 acres of good farmland from the grateful people of Tennessee.”
You can read more at: http://www.voicenet.com/~lpadilla/york.html
“In 1941, on the eve of the United States’ entry into the Second World War, York consented to having his diary adapted to film, personally selecting Gary Cooper to portray him as a condition for the filming. The film would be universally acclaimed as one of the best film biographies of all time, earning an Oscar for Best Actor for Cooper and an Oscar nomination for Best Picture. It was a straightforward adaptation of the diary with very little Hollywood embellishment; the only embellishment which York acknowledged was that the film showed his born-again Christianity as due to being struck by lightning on his way to a confrontation with a rival, whereas it was actually simply his meeting his future wife and falling in love.”
It’s a great biographical movie and I highly recommend it if you haven’t seen it.
SilverStar830 on July 17, 2007 at 5:52 PM
You can really only justify killing in the Christian tradition through self-defense…that’s how Augustine and Aquinas basically do it…I happen to think the terrorists started it (and I’m in company that agrees with me), but reasonable people may disagree. As a Catholic Christian who is for the death penalty (usually), I am never quick to make fun of someone who has a hard time killing another person, even if that person is jihadi scum…Show a little compassion people, no need to call the guy a coward. Reasonable people can disagree about killing another person….even West Point grads.
WillBarrett on July 17, 2007 at 5:53 PM
I don’t think he could’ve taken his arguments to St. Augustine, a man much more versed in theology. Perhaps he should review Augustine’s “Just War” writings.
Later, Martin Luther (who had been an Augustinian monk, and was well-versed with Augustine’s writings) wrote that a military career was honorable in the eyes of God.
And just for the record, son-in-law, an Annapolis grad, is a devout Christian who has no qualms about his chosen career.
Sounds like this guy needs to repay the taxpayers the $200K expense they made to educate him.
Kimmer on July 17, 2007 at 5:54 PM
The Pope just released another statement!
“That punk RightWinged best not be putting words in my mouth or he’s gonna get the pimphand across his.”
Bad Candy on July 17, 2007 at 5:54 PM
Heh, maybe the Popehand?
Bad Candy on July 17, 2007 at 5:55 PM
Take him out of the Infantry and put him in Admin, but I want a return on my investment. That West Point edumakation ain’t cheep.
LakeRuins on July 17, 2007 at 5:57 PM
You idiots never miss an opportunity to bash the Church, do ya?
WillBarrett on July 17, 2007 at 5:57 PM
Wow, a Christian that walks the walk. That IS news!
What gives your selective and subjective interpretation of the Bible more credibility than Brown’s interpretation? Jesus clearly said “blessed be the peacemakers.” It sounds like Brown got it right.
The point we should take from this is that Jesus asked people to do impossible things. Human beings aren’t capable of loving our enemies. No God would ask hold his creation to impossible standards…
No God worth worshipping, anyway.
Enrique on July 17, 2007 at 5:57 PM
As someone in AFROTC, all I gotta say is at last we have an academy prick equation to watada.
TheEJS on July 17, 2007 at 5:58 PM
What some would call “pacifist”, Al Qaeda would call “target”.
pilamaye on July 17, 2007 at 5:59 PM
No, but we do frequently miss the opportunity to invest ourselves with some sort of “divine” authority, preferring instead to make arguments based on logic and reason.
I know, we’re such bastards.
Enrique on July 17, 2007 at 5:59 PM
Actually, Enrique, I love logic and reason…but you atheists think you have some sort of monopoly on it. That’s OK, I forgive you.
WillBarrett on July 17, 2007 at 6:01 PM
Quit once, quit forever. Enjoy the rest of your life. Be looking for you on the freeway off ramp. I’m a little short right now though, hope you understand.
Limerick on July 17, 2007 at 6:02 PM
Thanks.
Are you serious?
He’s wrong because ‘love your neighbor’ means protecting them from violent jihadists. The jihadists are also your neighbors, but trying to talk them out of it isn’t working.
How do you think they understood Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 17?
PRCalDude on July 17, 2007 at 6:03 PM
I had two people in my family that did not wish to serve in combat due to their Christian beliefs. One served in a combat field hospital and the other in supply. Both wished to serve their country, both served on foreign soil, one was wounded and both are heroes to me.
There are plenty of jobs in the Army, Navy and Air Force that do not require you to partake in combat. This guy could have served as a chaplain and helped people in the service.
He sounds like an Episcopalian bishop in the making.
Hening on July 17, 2007 at 6:03 PM
All logic an reason begins with some epistemologic basis, Enrique. Yours is ‘there is no God.’ It’s your presupposition, nothing more.
PRCalDude on July 17, 2007 at 6:04 PM
Yeah, but its not because you use logic and reason. Its mostly because you’re an obnoxious prick.
As for this.
Nah, Jesus was just way ahead of his time…
Bad Candy on July 17, 2007 at 6:06 PM
OK, give him a job where he doesn’t have to shoot at people — I understand there are quite a few IEDs that need disarmed.
db on July 17, 2007 at 6:07 PM
What is a peacemaker? Why a soldier of course. One who has the courage to take on evil in order to MAKE PEACE.
Guardian on July 17, 2007 at 6:10 PM
You’re absolutely right about the first principles, PRCalDude…Essentially atheists make the same assumptions as the logical positivists, albeit quite watered down. Put basically, if I can’t falsify it, it isn’t real…or if I can’t run an experiment on it, it’s not logical or reasonable. Thus, THEY have the exclusive claim to logic and reason. Of course, one cannot run an experiment on a great many things….I feel like these same tired arguments get rehashed constantly on this board.
WillBarrett on July 17, 2007 at 6:10 PM
Took him this long to cherry pick the best out-of-context Biblical quotes to justify his change of heart?
Just accept the general discharge and go.
But if he is ever caught fighting or fighting back , in any context, in the future, throw him in the brig for wasting the taxpayers’ investment.
profitsbeard on July 17, 2007 at 6:10 PM
Although, I should add, most atheists go a step further than the positivists and deny God’s existence altogether…The positivist at least had the good sense to say that the word “God” was meaningless…
WillBarrett on July 17, 2007 at 6:15 PM
and the threads always disappear into the archive before real progress is made.
PRCalDude on July 17, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Pope Gregory justified the first Crusade as a defense of the dhimmis in Palestine. He was right to do it.
PRCalDude on July 17, 2007 at 6:17 PM
“Blessed are the peacemakers,” but how is walking out on the Iraqis helping the cause of peace?
It may be that the training he received involved dehumanizing the enemy, and he came to the opinion that pursuing the enemy was murder. If he is not doing this out of cowardice, it may just be that he needs more training to see the true role of the soldier in the US Army.
pedestrian on July 17, 2007 at 6:18 PM
Loving others includes not letting them get killed by someone else.
Religious_Zealot on July 17, 2007 at 6:21 PM
Reasonable, lucid, and concise. Great comment!
ScottMcC on July 17, 2007 at 6:25 PM
Thank you. :-)
baldilocks on July 17, 2007 at 6:33 PM
I always find it funny when someone says, “oh we rely on logic and reason…logic and reason…logic and reason…” as if those are the only and best foundations for epistemology. Modernists…gotta love ‘em!
nailinmyeye on July 17, 2007 at 6:33 PM
Enrique,
Anne Rice (author of “Interview with a Vampire”) was raised Roman Catholic, became an atheist, and returned to faith in Christ. You should listen to what she has to say about it.
PRCalDude on July 17, 2007 at 6:33 PM
“Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.” – Thomas Mann
“The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke
“Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” – Jesus Christ
“Peace is not simply the absence of conflict; it is the presence of justice.” – Dr Martin Luther King, Jr
“I’d love to spit some beechnut in that dudes eyes
and shoot him with my ole forty-five.” – Bocephus
How then do we live?
locomotivebreath1901 on July 17, 2007 at 6:35 PM
The problem of reconciling Christian faith just military violence, is a difficult one. I happen to disagree with this guy.
As I’ve said on this board many, many times, there is a difference between 1) forgiveness and justice; 2) the church, and the state. The Bible clearly states that God has entrusted the government with “the sword” for the protection of its people. There is no prohibition of a Christian participating in the military. If the situation were occurring in the church – where, maybe a church, or church members rose up in violence against other church members or against social policies, I think that that would be more than condemnable by the church on Christian principle.
At the same time, I have immense respect for my Mennonite friends who believe in a doctrine of non-violence. However, most of them even say that a society without defense is impossible – it is the war waged in defense by others that even gives us the freedom to be non-violent, they say. They feel as if, however, that they personally are not to participate in the violence. I respect this view as a potentially faithful theological interpretation, though, I happen to disagree with it.
nailinmyeye on July 17, 2007 at 6:43 PM
You can get into the two-kingdom view Scripture takes of the world (i.e. the present evil ages and the age to come, or the City of Man and the City of God), but it’s really unnecessary. ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’ means defending him, especially if he’s your countryman.
PRCalDude on July 17, 2007 at 6:49 PM
So true!
David, someone who commanded soldiers, fought wars, and would be equivalent to a 5 star general today, was called by God Himself “a man after My own heart.”
If Christ wouldn’t protect those in need from evil, He had no reason to die on the cross for them.
Ryan Gandy on July 17, 2007 at 6:49 PM
I agree with those above who think he should serve out his military obligation as a chaplain after completing his religious studies
One of the chaplains in the 82nd during WWII made four of the 82nd’s five combat jumps…..
Janos Hunyadi on July 17, 2007 at 6:53 PM
No, no, no young man. You owe the nation 5 years service to pay back your education at West Point. I would put him in charge of toilets and bedpans at a military hospital for 5 years. No way would I cut this guy loose without the 5 years service or a check for $240,000 which was the cost to the American taxpayer for his education, housing, board and stipend.
As for his claim that it wasn’t until he was actually stationed somewhere that simulated killings took place which apalled him. I call BS on that one. The first summer at West Point he was trained in fire arms. Funny how long it took him to be apalled… He could have walked away from West Point after two years of education with a handshake, owing nothing. He chose to graduate.
It’s payback time.
Babs on July 17, 2007 at 6:53 PM
It always cracks me up when an athiest uses a bible passage to make a point. They use something they believe does not exist to prove something does exist.
It just cracks me up.
right2bright on July 17, 2007 at 6:57 PM
Hmmm. No, I don’t want to get into two-kingdoms, etc… The church is in the world, and a part of the world, and must be active in the world. I was just trying to point out Paul’s comments in Romans that a function of the government is to administer punishment and protect its people – and that this is God ordained. I didn’t mean to push it too far.
I agree with you though – that love of neighbor includes protection of neighbor. This is one of the reasons I disagree with my pacifist Christian friends.
nailinmyeye on July 17, 2007 at 7:00 PM
9/11 was SIX freaking years ago, so pretty much all of those jackasses are signing up while the war’s going on; soaking up pay for working out, training, and getting a college education – and then suddenly “discovering” that they were all Quakers.
P.S. Here’s a picture of the homo: http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070717/NEWS/707170322/-1/NEWS&Template=photos I don’t know how the hell stoner got in in the first place but I know a REAL easy way to make sure he can never hurt anyone: station him at Leavenworth.
logis on July 17, 2007 at 7:03 PM
He can serve as an Army medic. My dad was a Navy Corpsman in the Pacific during WW2. And, before he was 20, he’d made landings in the Marshall Islands, Saipan, Tinian, Guam, Leyte, Luzon and Iwo Jima.
This man shouldn’t be discharged; he should serve as a medic.
OhEssYouCowboys on July 17, 2007 at 7:06 PM
Perfect!
Romans 12:18
If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
If possible…..not always possible. There is evil in this world.
jjjen on July 17, 2007 at 7:11 PM
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Romans 13:1
This verse has always come to mind when considering Christian pacifism. I think a genuine Christian who feels strongly opposed to fighting a war would also be willing to accept the legal consequences.
I didn’t read this entire thread so if someone already mentioned this verse – sorry!
Dork B. on July 17, 2007 at 7:17 PM
WTH?
No wonder Allah’s an athiest.
Nichevo on July 17, 2007 at 7:35 PM
I’m a Christian and I’m enlisting into the Military at the end of the year. This guy’s reason’s don’t match scripture so I have a hard time defending his position. However, I can see where he’s coming from. My grandfather served as a Marine before going to the Air Force and then being discharged for the same objection. Now my grandfather doesn’t agree with his previous decision. I’m glad to do my part, even if that means taking a life for the liberty and freedom of this country.
df4jc on July 17, 2007 at 7:41 PM
One doesn’t become a ‘ring knocker’ without grasping some general idea of what is required in a conflict.
Little 8@$t@&d probably expected that the ring would guarantee him a desk job at the Pentagon for life, and when he found out he might actually have to serve in harm’s way, he chickened out.
I agree with others; Let him go… Don’t want his kind in uniform… but make him pay back every cent of the superb education he got at taxpayer’s expense.
LegendHasIt on July 17, 2007 at 7:42 PM
No, sorry. The New Testament did abolish the old law. Don’t you recall the apostle Paul talking about circumsision. The stated it was no longer valid. Why, because the old law was done away with when Christ died on the cross. Even Christ himself while on the cross said “It is finished.” Was he talking about the old law? Yes, among other things. If you think the old law is still enforced then do you, for instance, still commit animal sacrifice? The old law is still our school master and teaches us many things about God. It also helps us to prove Christ was who he said he was.
boomer on July 17, 2007 at 7:47 PM
I see I pissed a bunch of people off with my comment mocking the Pope earlier… let me clarify for anyone who seems to have lumped me in with the atheist crowd. I am not an atheist. I’m a Christian who is irritated with the the “Catholic Church” and the Pope. The Pope who openly bashes all real Christians as not Christians, while praising Islam and begging for an open dialogue with them, the same week a survey comes out proving the suspicions Christians have of Catholics… that it’s not about belief for them, it’s about going through the ritual motions simply because it was passed down from generation to generation… not because they sit and think about it, read their Bible, come to personal decisions on their own. They feel like showing up at Church is “good enough” to fulfill their insurance policy belief system “just in case” there is a heaven, they’ll do what their parents did and they should be fine.
RightWinged on July 17, 2007 at 8:05 PM
Oh my God. This guy’s from my hometown. Sorry folks.
Mark V. on July 17, 2007 at 8:08 PM
A council of Protestant ministers released this message:
“See now, if you had just listened to our version of the truth, like allowing gay priests [What? That isn't real Protestantism!] (Yeah it is!) [Shut up!] {You’re both wrong! MY Sect of Protestantism is right!} \FOOLS! All of you are wrong!\ {Who asked you!} +Yeah, everyone knows the Baptists are a bunch of tools+ (Say What!)”
BKennedy on July 17, 2007 at 8:08 PM
So this guy picks Infantry and suddenly is concerned that he may have to take lives? Sounds like Kos getting all squirmy when he realized his FA battery might actually be used for violence!11!!1!
Bah. I might only be a Methodist, but I can manage to reconcile military service with my faith. I have only failed in that I still hate some of my enemies. Yes, Hekmatyar, I mean you.
major john on July 17, 2007 at 8:12 PM
RW,
It might just be best to lay off at this point. Nothing is being proved except Big A’s skepticism about religious oriented posts going haywire.
major john on July 17, 2007 at 8:13 PM
You’re mixed up here. I don’t recall circumcision as being one of the chief laws of the Old Testament, but rather a reminder of the covenant between God and the Jews – going all the way back to Abraham.
If the NT abolished every law of the OT, then why is it that we as Christians are commanded not to murder, lie or steal? After all, they’re part of the Ten Commandments.
What there is no longer any reason for is the blood/animal sacrifice given under Mosaic law, since Christ’s blood is the stand in for that sacrifice – forever.
Ryan Gandy on July 17, 2007 at 8:39 PM
There is a little more detailed analysis as respecting the Just War explanation in the Catholic Catechism here and the actual paragraphs here.
Look, this is a complicated subject, based on the weighing of a lot of Christian history and a multitude of texts.
Just as Christian theologians have spent two millennia contemplating anger, e.g., when it is moral and when it is immoral, particularly as it applies to the responsibilities of civil leaders, so they have also taken into consideration both the good that “the peacemakers” do, for “society needs the example of those who renounce violence altogether” as a reminder of our obligations, as well as “the peacemakers” responsibility to serve in other capacities and provide that they do not harm “the rights and obligations of other men and societies.”
In shortening even shorter analyses, I am sure I’ve butchered this to down 0.1% of what needs to be considered. That now probably about matches the % of what this news report has provided in connection with this story that is needed to really judge it, too. I don’t know that this man is wholly right or wrong. In one particular, however, I’d say he has, at least, generalized “Jesus taught that I should bless those who curse me and not fight back against evil with force” too far since Jesus’ anger in encountering evil at the Temple did teach that force can be applied in a righteous manner.
In any event, I hope he is following this path in a righteous manner, making it moral, and not in an unrighteous manner which would be, to my mind, as much a sin as acting in anger in an unrighteous manner.
Dusty on July 17, 2007 at 8:49 PM
That is about the dumbest possible reply to my post you could have made… but expected from a Catholic, who is all about tradition and “religion”, rather than actual belief in something based on personal study and coming to personal conclusions. You people don’t get it because you keep God locked up in “The Church”, so you think every believer is equally beholden to a set of laws and rituals and “Church” the same way. I won’t bother explaining further because you’re clearly hysterical.
RightWinged on July 17, 2007 at 8:52 PM
Most everyone is under the assumption Jesus was a pacifist. I beg to differ, go read the “thief in the night” passages for more insight. All a “thief in the night” has a right to is immediate no quarters given death.
drriclaw on July 17, 2007 at 8:53 PM
BS! BS! BS! BS! BS!
That is just such a crock. I do hope they keep live ammo away from this clown, though.
reaganaut on July 17, 2007 at 9:00 PM
Sometimes, doing what’s right is stopping somebody else from doing what’s wrong.
TBinSTL on July 17, 2007 at 9:14 PM
Uh, put him in the mess hall, let him love Jesus and sling hash. I paid for this pansy’s education, I want my 6 years out of his sorry ass.
I bet our fathers and grandfathers all felt a special kinship with Jesus too, they got over it and saved the F’n world.
After a big flash, and a 2 story fall, I called for momma, Jesus and Suzy Rotten Crotch too…One bad-ass corpsman, 6 weeks in the infirmary and 1 nite on the wrong side of the tracks in Rio and I was stapping on the 782 gear and crossing the wire, again. Suck it up pal. Hear that, it’s your friggin country calling you to a duty greater than your personal comfort.
Alden Pyle on July 17, 2007 at 9:20 PM
The Gunney has some tender words of sympathy for this gentle young soul…
Alden Pyle on July 17, 2007 at 9:32 PM
Theologian C.S. Lewis on pacifism (in The Weight of Glory):
Laura on July 17, 2007 at 9:55 PM
Exactly.
In the Old Testament there is a quote as to what God hates (and I’m paraphrasing) “There are six things that I (God) hate, and the seventh I loathe.. The seventh.. is the shedding of innocent blood which I loathe.
What will this
boneheadlady do when his young daughter is attacked while he is standing by?Also the commandment to not murder.. is exactly that. Thou shalt not murder.. which is not killing. Murdering is taking the life of an “innocent” person.
Killing is taking the life of someone in self-defense for others and oneself.
Just what has this thread come down, too?
Spewing Catholic vs. Protestant crap around?
You whipper snappers should be ashamed of yourself!
Stay on subject and don’t waste my time!
Go home!!
Mcguyver on July 17, 2007 at 10:03 PM
A council of Protestant ministers released this message:
BKennedy on July 17, 2007 at 8:08 PM said:
“See now, if you had just listened to our version of the truth, like allowing gay priests [What? That isn’t real Protestantism!] (Yeah it is!) [Shut up!] {You’re both wrong! MY Sect of Protestantism is right!} \FOOLS! All of you are wrong!\ {Who asked you!} +Yeah, everyone knows the Baptists are a bunch of tools+ (Say What!)”
I beg to differ with RightWinged. The post above made a point in a witty way (in response to a misleading and bigoted insult, I might add) without being mean. BKennedy, I salute you.
inviolet on July 17, 2007 at 10:03 PM
Corrected post. I’m such a noob!
BKennedy on July 17, 2007 at 8:08 PM said:
A council of Protestant ministers released this message:
“See now, if you had just listened to our version of the truth, like allowing gay priests [What? That isn’t real Protestantism!] (Yeah it is!) [Shut up!] {You’re both wrong! MY Sect of Protestantism is right!} \FOOLS! All of you are wrong!\ {Who asked you!} +Yeah, everyone knows the Baptists are a bunch of tools+ (Say What!)”
I beg to differ with RightWinged. The post above made a point in a witty way (in response to a misleading and bigoted insult, I might add) without being mean. BKennedy, I salute you.
inviolet on July 17, 2007 at 10:05 PM
So he’s supposed to be loving people all the time.
Right.
And I suppose refusing to protect people is “Loving” them???
Somehow???
thareb on July 17, 2007 at 10:05 PM
Correction, they keep God locked up in a gold tabernacle behind the altar.
Man: I think it was, “Blessed are the cheesemakers”!
Gregory’s wife: What’s so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it’s not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Keljeck on July 17, 2007 at 10:12 PM
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