Guardian: Bush leaning towards military action on Iran
posted at 9:52 pm on July 15, 2007 by Allahpundit
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You didn’t think those sweet-ass robot bombers were really meant for Baghdad, did you?
Last year Mr Bush came down in favour of Ms Rice, who along with Britain, France and Germany has been putting a diplomatic squeeze on Iran. But at a meeting of the White House, Pentagon and state department last month, Mr Cheney expressed frustration at the lack of progress and Mr Bush sided with him. “The balance has tilted. There is cause for concern,” the source said this week.
Nick Burns, the undersecretary of state responsible for Iran and a career diplomat who is one of the main advocates of negotiation, told the meeting it was likely that diplomatic manoeuvring would still be continuing in January 2009. That assessment went down badly with Mr Cheney and Mr Bush.
“Cheney has limited capital left, but if he wanted to use all his capital on this one issue, he could still have an impact,” said Patrick Cronin, the director of studies at the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
The Washington source said Mr Bush and Mr Cheney did not trust any potential successors in the White House, Republican or Democratic, to deal with Iran decisively. They are also reluctant for Israel to carry out any strikes because the US would get the blame in the region anyway.
“The red line is not in Iran. The red line is in Israel. If Israel is adamant it will attack, the US will have to take decisive action,” Mr Cronin said. “The choices are: tell Israel no, let Israel do the job, or do the job yourself.”
This one’s about as credible as that super-keen lefty blog “expose” a few months ago about Darth Cheney conspiring with Israel to launch Armageddon, although the boldface part rings worryingly true. My feelings about another Bush-managed war are the same as Dennis Miller’s were in an old bit he used to do about Germany’s reunification: much like a Martin and Lewis reunion, he said, he wasn’t impressed with their previous work and wasn’t really looking forward to seeing any of the new sh*t. Hey, George: Let Fred handle it. Or, god forbid, a Democrat if it comes to that.
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I’m completely disagree. Iraq has been a failure because we haven’t attacked Iran. Iraq these days is the consequence of a country not enforcing its border. You can’t win a war with open borders, with terrorists and spies crossing with impunity.
Attacking Iran would both help Iraq and benefit our security.
What a horrendous secretary of state Condoleeze Rice has been. She is even worse than Madeleine Albright because Rice starts wars but then doesn’t finish them. Now she is trying to block Israel from protecting itself.
januarius on July 16, 2007 at 7:14 AM
That may be true but the question to consider is what exactly could the public do about it after the fact? I think that strike would be designed to take out the nuke facilities and little more than that. I just can’t see him leaving it all to chance.
Oh and I’ll bring the fried spam if you are providing the beer!
Bradky on July 16, 2007 at 7:32 AM
Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 8:25 AM
If Israel attacks Iran we’re going to be in the middle of it(literally)There’s no way for them to get there without crossing Iraqi air space that we control. We will be seen, if nothing else, as aiding and abetting.
Ernest on July 16, 2007 at 8:40 AM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:35 AM
So, ummm, what does an officer do when he makes a mistake?
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 11:05 AM
Never underestimate how convuluted the Army can be with its ranks. I started as an E-4, moved up to E-5 and now E-6, in a little over a year I will (Lord willing) skip to O-2E without going through O-1.
I certainly hope there are still M-1s in Iraq, they are much tougher against RPGs and IEDs than anything else we have. And I still say a 120mm HEAT round is the best response to a sniper.
Lancer on July 16, 2007 at 11:37 AM
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 11:05 AM
In Roman times they fell on their swords….. lol I don’t think that’s gonna happen…lol
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:37 AM
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:37 AM
It’s a trick question, all US military officers know the answer to it, it’s kind of like asking an enlisted man what a gig line is.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 11:41 AM
Nah, Arafat and the PLO hijacked a plane in ‘64 IIRC.
aengus on July 16, 2007 at 11:42 AM
Question how DOES such rapid advancement in the Army occur from “snuffy” to “Congressionally appointed gentleman”…. is it a Reserve/National Guard thing? I was in the Corps took me 4 years to make E-5 and that was including combat time sheesh. As for Iran….. I can honestly say I have no idea which way to go…..I want that country turned into a sheet of glass, but where is the courage?
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:43 AM
Um gig line? that’s the alignment of your shirt buttons, belt buckle and trouser fly any Marine knows that oh trick question? Darn I never learn
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:46 AM
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:46 AM
Yup, and if MB4 doesn’t know the correct answer then you know he was never an officer in the US military.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 11:51 AM
Sorry dorian you have developed great punji pits and I keep showing them….. my bad….lol
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:59 AM
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 11:59 AM
Heh heh, its ok, its one of those answers that you can know without having been an officer, but you cant have been an officer without knowing.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 12:04 PM
The robotic bombers are sweet-ass, as AllahPundit said, and their sweet asses make me think of just one thing, federalism. Over the last 80 years, the Americans’ rulers have made such sloppy changes to the American regime, that now, Americans have to try to elect rulers with the competence and justice to handle not just the core functions of Treasury, Justice, State, and War, but an amazingly long list of accreted “agencies” (available at
http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml
on 22 pages), a $3-trillion budget, and the most far-reaching and destructive arms ever devised. Remote surveillance and weaponry are emerging now, almost offhandedly, just one more power that the powerful naturally add to their power.
Attentive Americans on all sides see the danger piecewise. Democrats rightly see danger in entrusting so much responsibility and power to anyone except Democrats; Republicans rightly see danger in entrusting them to anyone except Republicans. But few Americans seem to grasp that no one is competent to handle so many responsibilities, and no one can safely be trusted with so many powers. Their Founders understood these things, having read widely in the works of both ancient and modern writers. Those Founders arranged a federal order that might still be revived, but I can scarcely detect that the Americans any longer read their Founders’ works, let alone the works of those who taught the Founders.
Kralizec on July 16, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Kralizec on July 16, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Oh I think there are quite a few of us who are familiar with Hobbs.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 12:16 PM
Kralizec on July 16, 2007 at 12:10 PM
I understand what you’re saying, but with even Hobbsian and Lockian hindsight, the federalism you wish to return to was gone 6 years after the Constitution was signed. The many powers you refer to were ably handled , in their own way, during WW2. Was that awesomeness and power not as daunting?
I have faith that we can bring back our Federalist philosophy since we now have a Supreme Court that have a majority of judges who are Originalists.
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 12:37 PM
We need to use what I’ve taken to calling the Tit for Tat strategy.
Every time we can tie an IED pointed at an Amercian to its country of origin/manufacture… or every time we can find the country of origin of a fighter from outside of Iraq…
We send a 500 lbs. hello to the country of origin.
Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia… I don’t care… use stealth and Cruise technology and hit em…
Basicly an eye for an eye type of thing… because these countries no longer fear the consequences fo F’n with America.
Romeo13 on July 16, 2007 at 3:53 PM
doriangrey – “So, ummm, what does an officer do when he makes a mistake?”
He finds the lowest ranking enlisted man that he can plausibly blame for any of it, and then blames all of it on him!!!
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:15 PM
doriangrey – “So, ummm, what does an officer do when he makes a mistake?”
He finds the lowest ranking enlisted man that he can plausibly blame for any of it, and then blames all of it on him!!!
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:24 PM
doriangrey – “it’s kind of like asking an enlisted man what a gig line is.”
Or what KP is. 6 times in basic.
On many threads back I ONLY bought up that I had EVEN been in the Army because someone started accusing me of being a cut-and-runner, defeatist, against-the-troops, coward, liberal!, kos whatever, #%@#$, etc, plus/minus, because I did not believe in tarbay Iraq and one thing lead to another.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:33 PM
What, how did that happen?
I guess he must have found two enlisted men to blame it on.
Must have been some fluster cuck.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:35 PM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:15 PM
Wrong answer, you were obviously never an officer in the United States Military.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 4:45 PM
MB4 never read what I said…. scary person but infantile… such is the Internet
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 4:48 PM
MNDavenotPC – “I was in the Corps took me 4 years to make E-5 and that was including combat time sheesh.”
Back during “my time”, in the Army one could go to basic (2 months), AIT (2 months) then to an NCO version (”Shake and Bake”, 3 months?) that they had of OCS and then become a hard stripper E-5. Total 7 months from “E-0″ to E-5 hard stripper. There was some wait time between AIT and “Shake and Bake”, can’t recall how long, but I don’t think that it was very long, maybe just for the paper work to go though?
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:49 PM
doriangrey – “Wrong answer, you were obviously never an officer in the United States Military.”
Your logic is uncoordinated.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:52 PM
and 3200 mils out!
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Good God!
It’s not like I said that I was a Starship commander!
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:54 PM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:52 PM
And you are just plain full of shit.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 4:54 PM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 4:54 PM
Nope, you just claimed to be an officer, which you obviously never were, or just like knowing what a gig line is you would have known the correct answer to that. It’s that basic to being an officer in the US Military.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 4:59 PM
doriangrey, do not give up your day job to become a logician or you will starve.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 5:05 PM
doriangrey – “And you are just plain full of shit.”
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 5:12 PM
“Official” answer, he admits it.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 5:13 PM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 5:13 PM
Still wrong, strike two, keep swinging…
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 5:16 PM
Hmmm anyway I still want Iran a sheet of glass….I’ll copy my DD214 here if MB4 will….. I’m just a humble non com
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 5:26 PM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 5:13 PM
Awe…whats the matter cant find it on google???
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 5:31 PM
Oh sans social security number , I’m not stupid
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 5:38 PM
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 5:26 PM
MB4 seems to be AWOL…maybe one of his non com’s saluted him on the battlefield…
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 6:31 PM
doriangrey, are you the official keeper of the “magic questions”?
If I told you where I was born, would you have a “magic question” to check that?
If I told you that I once lived in the DC area of Northern Virginia, would you have a “magic question” to check that?
If I told you what profession I was in, would you have a “magic question” to check that?
I think that you are putting WAY too much faith in your “magic questions”.
If I was going to “google” anything right now it would be for the official terminology of the logical error that you are making.
MNDavenotPC – “I’ll copy my DD214 here if MB4 will….. I’m just a humble non com”
I do not have the set up to photo copy anything “here”. If I did you would probably just say that I got it from someone else.
BTW, few noncoms are humble, wouldn’t be prudent.
You know, I have gotten into some pretty ridiculous “discussions” in my time, but this one is really taking the cake.
I dug out, God only knows why, my last dd form (1 jul 66) 214.
Sample lines (I am NOT going to key in the whole F###ing thing!):
line 4 ARMY – USAR – FA
line 5a Grade, rate or rank: CPT (see 30)
line 11a: Relieved from active duty.
line 11c: SectionXI & XX Ch 3 AR 635-100 SPN 619 Vol Req & DA Msg 281557z Jul 71
line 12: XXIV Corps USARPAC RVN
line 14:USAR CONTROL GROUP (REINFORCEMENT) USAAC St Louis MO 63132
line 20 Ft Sill OK
line 25:CIVIL AFFAIRS OFFICER CRS 5D-8105, 8 weeks, Ft Gordon GA (I had a secondary MOS. Is that OK?)
line 30: Item 5a: Temp CPT AUS, aptd 30 jun 71; Perm 1LT USAR, apt 30 Jun 71
That’s it for this ridiculousness!!!
PERIOD.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 6:38 PM
OK you proved you were Reserves…. that says quite a bit I understand the grade structure and everything. I will post my service as well
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 6:47 PM
Actually MNDavenotPC, I was not really in the Reserves, other than “on paper”. It was totally civilian > active duty > total civilian (technically in inactive reserves, but no meetings or anything like that).
If you were in the top 10% (I think it was) of your OCS graduating class (like Tommy Franks I’m pretty sure was) you were offered a commission in the Regular Army (which I think were limited by congress?), if you were NOT in the top 10% you got a commission in the Reserves, but there was really no difference.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 6:58 PM
BTW, MB4 was the name of “the hill” at Ft Sill that you had to run if you got x demerits. I am sure that I ran it a lot more than Tommy Franks did. I may have even set some kind of record!!! lol
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 7:01 PM
Well here is my info while this blog is not the place, you gave yours I’ll give mine and that will be the vetting of both of us and may the rest be quiet….
Line 5a Sgt 5b E-5
Line 6 01/Jul/71
Line 16 23 Apr 75
Line 17b 05 17c 21Aug 67
Line 24 National Defense, Vietnam Service, Vietnam Campaign, Bronze Star w/device, Purple Heart, Good Conduct, Navy Commendation, PUC, Combat Action
MNDavenotPC on July 16, 2007 at 7:39 PM
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 6:38 PM
OK so you have somebodies dd214, I’m just not buying it being yours.
doriangrey on July 16, 2007 at 8:49 PM
For heavens sakes, let’s just get the rulers out and measure one another……
Bradky on July 16, 2007 at 9:37 PM
The Air Force and Navy have been out of the heat for a long time. Let them fight some of our wars for a change.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 1:40 AM
If by “out of the heat” you mean they aren’t still flying CAS missions, I’m willing to bet you’re in error. Likely, it’s more Air Force than Navy, but I’m sure the Army and Marines still call their brethren-in-blue on occasion (Navy-blue or Air Force-blue, whoever is flying cover for them that day). The Marines are a top-notch, all around, kick-ass, forced-entry branch of the military; but they still require “off-hull” support (as us Navy pukes call it) to sustain themselves for any decent length of time. The Army (kick-ass in their own right) cannot survive with just helicopter and limited A-10 CAS on a normal battlefield. Neither ground pounder segments of our armed forces has the aerial resources that I’d love to see them have. So they rely on assistance from Air Force and Navy to this day. And you know what? It works. Amazing as that may be.
The Air Force and Navy did their jobs. They prepared the “battlespace” in advance of and in conjunction with the ground advance. That’s what they do. Their job is not to win wars. It never has been. Nor will it ever be. Win “battles”, yes; but win a war? That takes boots on the ground. It is an absolute must to actually win in real (not theoretical) war. We can air-strike the crap out of any nation on earth, but winning a war against them would be impossible without the Marines and/or Army.
TBinSTL – “Why can’t we stage an attack on Saudi Arabia and make it look like the Iranians did it?…….”
Astronomers report that a large meteor is headed toward Earth. They are currently computing the likely coordinates of impact on Earth.
Coordinates of large meteor impact announced as 21°25′N 39°49′E / 21.417, 39.817
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 1:53 AM
If America had the only astronomers on earth, that might work.
Why would all the Armor, much of which was “borrowed”, still be In Iraq? What would have been the point? You don’t need nearly as much armor for a police action/nation building/whatever as you do for an invasion.
MB4 on July 16, 2007 at 2:41 AM
On this, I’ll agree. I agree that the heavy armor is mostly just not there anymore. I imagine there are still a few M-1s in-country, but nothing like the levels to fight during the invasion. I’m confused by your “borrowed” statement, though. How does a nation who effectively declares war on another nation “borrow” the tools to wage said war from itself? If you mean re-deployment of assets from Germany, that was on the horizon anyway. The dipshit Euros think they can defend themselves against an increasingly hostile Russia, and if they have to trade a few of the newer entries to the EU to assure peace, they will fall all over themselves to do so. That means they don’t want us there anymore, so moving those garrison units to combat in the Middle East is not “borrowing.” It’s re-deployment. Unlike Murtha’s idea, it was re-deployment for effect.
I get that you don’t seem to like the Iraq war, MB4. Unlike others, I’m not going to attack your service record. I just want to point out that some of your arguments have holes. My time in the Navy taught me to think strategically as well as tactically. I’m starting to wonder if OJT in the Army does the same. Does the Army actually encourage “what if” thinking (which leads to the strategic level)?
American_Jihadist on July 17, 2007 at 12:08 AM
Ok here is a question for you military folks out there to ponder…why can’t we go in with Special Forces ally with the locals who don’t like the mullahs and simply use the Afghanistan tactics of local help with US expertise…? That way everyones happy, we get rid of the nuclear weapons program and the Iranians get their freedom back.
PierreLegrand on July 17, 2007 at 12:46 AM
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