Concerning salvation-the good deeds are not “measured” as a materialist or a Prod would measure them. Their worth is measured by what was in one’s heart at the time.

Trainwife1962,

Thank you for your comments. I agree with you here. I agree that Scripture alone teaches that salvation is a matter of the heart alone. God is interested in changing the heart. After heart surgery, outward, “good” deeds flows naturally as a result of a transformed heart.

You have appealed to the lowest common denominators in your ad hominem attacks on His Holiness, and on Holy Mother Church. For shame. Definitely un Christian behavior, in any light.

Many of us “Protestants” already have said here we disagree strongly with some of the unfair, hurt-ful attacks leveled at the Catholic position in this thread.

Concerning salvation-the good deeds are not “measured” as a materialist or a Prod would measure them. Their worth is measured by what was in one’s heart at the time. We have no idea of their “intrinsic” worth, there is no score card or check list. We can fail at any time and be saved by His Grace. Holy Mother Church teaches that both faith and good deeds lead to salvation, not each separately. Without one, you cannot have the other. I believe, yet I struggle to do His will. I pray that I am saved. I worry that my faith is not enough. I worry that I will fail Him. I make reparations for my sins and those of the whole world. I pray to God constantly, and ask for the intercession of His saints.

I have no brief with any Protestant heresy- I do not care to learn of their so called truths, but neither would I ever create a public scandal by denigrating and defiling another’s beliefs, no matter how wrong. You have appealed to the lowest common denominators in your ad hominem attacks on His Holiness, and on Holy Mother Church. For shame. Definitely un Christian behavior, in any light.

What was taught to nazi youth when Pope Ratz volunteered in his teens? Hate the Jewish people. What did Germany do? Kill the Jewish people, several million people. Don’t we clearly see the images of torment and death? Have we really forgotten what nazi Germany was all about?

Isn’t it clear what the cardinals have voted into power at the Catholic church, what one could call a pure breed nazi? They had to know this man’s background before they voted.

Then, there’s Pope Ratz choice to join the nazi anti-aircraft division during the war. What did nazi anti-aircraft personnel do? They tried to shoot down American and allied aircraft. Why? Because they wanted the pilots dead.

So, when Pope Ratz was 18, he was on a team of men trying to kill Americans.

Then, there’s Pope Ratz role in covering up the priest child sex ring within the Catholic church. How many priests did he transfer, move around and hide? How much did he do to prolong the misery of thousands of victims? How many people suffered because of Pope Ratz? I do not know. One is too many however.

Now Pope Ratz takes aim at Protestants, born-again believers, and others who choose not to be Catholics. Again, based on his training to hate Jews, this is not surprising. He chose to join the hate-filled nazi movement in his teen years. If he hates Jews, he can hate anyone.

So, when we read about apathy from Catholics, do not blame them. It starts at the top. Most Catholics are caring and giving people and many care they are being led by a nazi.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/biblical.html

The statement “get used to it” does not settle anything. It is an arrogant response. There is nothing wrong with a discussion on Christian doctrine. If that offends you then maybe you need to “get used to it”.

Rose on July 14, 2007 at 4:40 PM

The statement wasn’t designed to “settle” anything. It was meant to cover the primary theological divide from which all other divides stem. Catholics believe that the Priest literally transfigures the bread and wine into Jesus’ real body and blood. Protestants(at least the most popular sects) believe that the host and the wine represent the body and blood of Christ. Catholics believe that Jesus appointed Simon Peter as the first Pope who was charged with continuing the papacy. Protestants don’t believe the Pope is neccesary, mostly citing the indulgences that went on when Luther posted his 95 Theses to the church door as a sign of unending papal corruption.

As I said, infighting between Catholics and Protestants is idiotic. The only time I take out the Protestant slashing claws is when they pull out their anti-Catholic claws.

Wow. And after I specifically warned people against denigrating the Church in my post.

Lance is banned. Who’s next?

Allahpundit on July 14, 2007 at 9:22 PM

Thank you. Lance was out of line.

The Pope Needs to Flush Out His Penis Hat

Wow. And after I specifically warned people against denigrating the Church in my post.

Lance is banned. Who’s next?

One is right with GOd by following his commandments and by loving his neighbor as himself.

trainwife1962 on July 14, 2007 at 6:59 PM

Trainwife,

May I please, respectfully, ask “what commandments” are you referring to in the above?

I realize both you and I already agree with Romans chapter 3: verse 23 where it talks about “for all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.”

We probably, I assume, already both agree that Jesus Himself commanded perfection, for He said, “be perfect, in Matthew 5:48″.

We know that in Romans 3:10 that the Bible states that “no one is righteous.” This verse echoes the Old Testament view of mankind as being utterly and wickedly depraved.

Jeremiah 17:9 states, “the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.”

Repeatedly, the Bible states that man’s heart is so wicked that heart surgery is first required before salvation even occurs. The human heart must first undergo heart surgery, by the Divine Cardiac Surgeon.
After heart surgery is performed by God alone, man’s heart is transformed and changed, and this is where “following the commandments” occur.

As a result of a transformed heart (by God alone), the believer in Christ desires to follow Christ and live a life marked by following his commands. But this lifestyle of “following His commands” occurs after salvation, not before.

May I ask the following questions to my friends here:

since the Catholic view teaches “faith plus good works over a lifetime may grant me access to heaven,”

—How many good works must I produce in order to clear the bar of divine acceptance? After all, Jesus Himself set the divine bar pretty high—impossible high—-Perfection.
—How “good” must my “good works” be?
—Will certain wicked works disqualify me from my final justification-even if I have produced many good works over 24 years? How about only 14 years? What about 5 years? Who makes the rules?
—Will God lower his standard of Divine justice in order to accomodate my sinful lifestyle in the act of justification (concerning salvation)?

Trainwife, I commend you for talking about following his commands. But the Bible states these occur after salvation, not before. They occur after a wicked heart has been transformed, not before.

The rest of Romans 3-4 talk about faith alone is the instrument by which we wicked sinners gain access to a holy and just God who does not tolerate sin.

Let’s meet!

Come to NYC, and we’ll figure something out…What, are you going to fight me? BUT BUT BUT I thought YOU were the TOLERANT one, Lance? Basically, anybody just has to read your comments to see what a toolish, anti-Catholic bigot sound like (who isn’t used to being stood up to). I’m guessing you were a playground bully…either that, or you have a very small penis…probably both…

And a bouquet of flounders for Rose…

Go read the article that ripped you a new rear door. It’s good. Lawrence is good. I’m just bored with you at this point and have important things to do.

I’ve seen little girls like you talk tough all over the web. Your mind is as narrow and pompous as exists in this world, and your intellect and education are minimal (I don’t care how many sheepskins you have, they didn’t take). You judge everything as if life radiates from you out–not even close.

I hate to wrinkle your pretty pink panties, but you’re a P000$$eee and that’s a fact. Anonymous? Let’s meet!

You’re quite the hero behind your keyboard while dressed in your soiled undies, Will.

I’ve noticed this a lot on this blog…intellectual lightweights just recycle the criticism that was thrown at them…See it was ME who was first calling you a coward for hiding behind an anonymous blog spouting your anti-Catholic bigotry…remember?

I really hate to say this, but I’m smarter, faster, braver, handsomer, and wittier than you. I didn’t try to be. I didn’t want to be. I just am.

]

No, I seriously doubt all of those things…but I guess we’ll never know…you know, the whole anonymous blog thing on the Internet. Tool.

And you still never said whether you served your country or not. So why don’t I just say that you didn’t. It’ll only sting for a short while. Was it the physical you couldn’t pass, or did you think only “idiots” like me joined up?

Well, no, I haven’t, but I’m still in my early 20s (how does it feel to be bandied about my someone no doubt at least half your age?), so there’s always the possibility…For a time, I was seriously considering going to West Point, but I chose another direction in life…Although, truth be known, I sometimes think I should’ve gone.

One of our blog writers wrote a post just for you and another “tolerant” guy named Bob:

You Know Those Hindus Make Me Want To…..SHOUT!!!

Check it out.

You’re quite the hero behind your keyboard while dressed in your soiled undies, Will.

I really hate to say this, but I’m smarter, faster, braver, handsomer, and wittier than you. I didn’t try to be. I didn’t want to be. I just am.

Yawn.

And you still never said whether you served your country or not. So why don’t I just say that you didn’t. It’ll only sting for a short while. Was it the physical you couldn’t pass, or did you think only “idiots” like me joined up?

Stay tuned for more links to articles on Catholics. BBL.

One is right with GOd by following his commandments and by loving his neighbor as himself.

trainwife1962 on July 14, 2007 at 6:59 PM

What do you make of this? Romans 3:

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

And

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

That’s your main theological divide among Christians folks. Get used to it.

BKennedy on July 14, 2007 at 4:08 PM

I think the divide is over justification. We disagree about other things, but justification is the main issue: how is one right with God??