Poll: Catholics markedly less devout than most Americans
posted at 11:24 am on July 13, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Well, the good news is, they’re fully assimilated. And then some. Wow:
All five of the faith-related attitudes tested showed a gap between Catholics and other Americans. Among the elements tested were people’s highest priority in life (Catholics were only half as likely as others to mention their faith, and a majority identified family as their priority) and their commitment to the Christian faith (44% of Catholics claimed to be “absolutely committed” compared to 54% of the entire adult population)…
Of the dozen faith-oriented behaviors tested, Catholics strayed from the norm in relation to eight of the 12 items. Specifically, the typical Catholic person donated about 17% less money to churches; was 38% less likely than the average American to read the Bible; 67% less likely to attend a Sunday school class; 20% less likely to share their faith in Christ with someone who had different beliefs; 24% less likely to say their religious faith has greatly transformed their life; and were 36% less likely to have an “active faith,” which Barna defined as reading the Bible, praying and attending a church service during the prior week. However, Catholics were 16% more likely than the norm to attend a church service and 8% more likely to have prayed to God during the prior week.
The spiritual beliefs of Catholics are also substantially different from the typical views of Americans. Catholics differed from most people on seven of the 11 belief-focused questions raised. For instance, Catholics were significantly less likely to believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches and only half as likely to maintain that they have a responsibility to share their faith with others. They were more likely than the norm to say that Satan is not real; to believe that eternal salvation is earned; and to contend that Jesus Christ sinned while on earth…
The moral behaviors of Catholics also stood out in several areas. Among the 16 moral behaviors examined, Catholics were notably more likely to not say mean things about people behind their back, and were more likely to engage in recycling. However, they were also twice as likely to view pornographic content on the Internet and were more likely to use profanity, to gamble, and to buy lottery tickets.
The phenomenon of lapsed Catholics has been more common in my experience than lapsed Protestants, but having been raised Catholic I’m probably suffering from sample bias. Anyone have any theories as to why the data here is what it is? Any theories, I mean, that don’t involve denigrating the Church the way some of our more nuanced Protestant readers did in the thread about the Pope a few days ago? For some, I guess, if it’s not Muslims or Hindus, the nearest target will do.
As an inducement to thoughtful responses, I offer you this piece from former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson about how atheists really do believe in god no matter what they may think or say. Sigh.
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This is a telephone survey performed by a group that is not objective. I would put little credence in these results.
mikeyboss on July 13, 2007 at 2:14 PM
I had a public school teacher make me switch from left-handed to right. Just sayin’ that it’s not just the nuns.
I think there’s a lot to that. As a Catholic, I hadn’t gone to church regularly for about 20 years. I still believed in God, Christ, and all that, but I was just nominally a Catholic. When I moved to NH and met my now fiancee, I started going to Mass more regularly (she was, att the time, a much better Catholic than I am). There was a real sense of belonging and enthusiasm in the church that we found, beginning at the (relitively young) pastor and going all the way into the congregation. There really was a sense of belonging, and of families going together for more reasons than “it’s Sunday so it’s church day.” So we started going there regularly, and one of the reasons we bought the house that we did is because it’s “officially” in that parish.
We’ve been back to the church she grew up in a few times, and there is always a very real sense of ritual, Ritual, RITUAL!! The pastor’s homilies sound more like lectures, and they tend to make me bleary-eyed wheras our pastor’s homilies are very dynamic, interesting, and I get a lot out of them).
This got me flamed on Free Republic about a year ago, but that was the reason I stopped going in the first place – too much emphasis on capital-R ritual, not enough on what you’re supposed to be there for – your spirituality, salvation, and relationship with God.
crazy_legs on July 13, 2007 at 2:15 PM
Since you like pointing to the Pope kissing the Koran a lot, here’s a little something on that incident:
http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html
Take a look, if you don’t mind…
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 2:18 PM
He’s got some plausible alternative explanations that still don’t undo Vatican II.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:26 PM
I kinda like the ritualism. I actually think that if you go through the rituals and make it an intense experience, it would draw in a lot more people. I like the ritual, but its been watered down to where it means nothing. Right now, it is going through the motions, and a lot of people either spend a lot of time finding a charismatic priest who is inspired (whether there is ritual or not) or bailing and being indifferent.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 2:28 PM
Highhopes,
Some of us believe we are called to lead by example rather than exhortation. I have never been the “rah, rah” type, but do hope that my actions will speak for me.
mikeyboss on July 13, 2007 at 2:31 PM
I skipped all the comments above so that I wouldn’t lose my train of thought, so pardon me if someone has already said something similar to what I’m about to say.
I just had lunch with a guy from Boston, when we got on the subject of religion. From what he said, he seems to fit to a “t” what the study reflects… to a certain point.
I’ve lived in New York, and don’t find the study to far of from what I suspect my friends and family there would test out at, either.
But could it be a regional religious issue, and not just a Catholic/Protestant issue? This isn’t my theory; they guy from Boston suggested it, and it sounds intriguing.
He noted that he could not think of a new church anywhere near him in Boston (his family goes to the Old North Church… yeah, the “one if by land, two if by sea” church), but that down here in metro central NC, churches of all denominations are constantly popping up, and many of those thrive.
While I’m sure some new churches come around in the northeast, I noted, upon reflection, a similar pattern in upstate NY the four years I was there. The youngest church I knew of in our area (Newburgh/West Point) was probably close to 30 years old.
He volunteered that religion in the NE was past-tense; a tradition, a ritual, stuffy, and uptight. By contrast he noted that the church he went to down here was much more alive, active and it made him feel that his faith was now.
I think I agree with everything he said, as my experience reflected that as well. But here’s the thing: he went to Catholic churches in both areas, and I went to Protestant churches in both areas, and the particular church didn’t seem to matter as much as the region did.
Two people is hardly a valid sample, but I’d be interested in hearing what other traveled folks think: is it truly a Catholic issue, or is this more of a regional issue?
Bob Owens on July 13, 2007 at 2:31 PM
Might be Bob, I haven’t been to other churches in other regions, but there is a staleness in churches in the Northeast. I don’t need to go elsewhere to know that.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 2:37 PM
b)Because Catholics believe we were saved by Jesus dying, not by him coming back to life
tlynch001 on July 13, 2007 at 12:08 PM
I wonder though, would His death have meant anything had He not come back to life?
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 12:10 PM
This is exactly the point. Many people at that time claimed to be the Messiah. Many were crucified. If Jesus had stayed dead, we wouldn’t remember Him. He has claim to Messiah because he’s the only One who came back to life OVERCOMING the Cross/government/mankind’s death sentence.
Jesus hanging on the cross does offend me a bit.
The main difference I see is that Catholics preach to believe out of fear of hell, while Protestants preach LOVE for Christ because he LOVED us so celebrate Christ.
ThackerAgency on July 13, 2007 at 2:39 PM
Thanks for much of the backup, PRCalDude.
Just to clarify, my observation is not that all or most Catholics are atheists; it is that most atheists I’ve encountered are lapsed Catholics. Thomas Jefferson seemed to notice the same thing, per my previous link. I haven’t and won’t speculate on why this is, I will simply say it is merely an observation of mine.
frreal, I disregard infidels.org because the atheists (or should I say anti-theists) there will believe anything that is against Christianity and the Bible, up to and including historical references that otherwise would be accepted if they pertained to non-Biblical civilizations and events. I only use them as a hostile source and a start point for further research, much like I would use a Christian apologetics site for information about atheism.
angryoldfatman on July 13, 2007 at 2:39 PM
A little background info never hurt anyone:
http://aformofsoundwords.blogspot.com/2005/01/romanism.html
Doug on July 13, 2007 at 2:42 PM
So you believe. But if the Truth is as absolute as the capital T implies it to be, then it cannot be owned by any religious body.
And it’s precisely this “my church has the Truth and your’s doesn’t” that’s torn the body of Christ into so many parts over the years that we should be jealous of the concubine who was only torn 12.
The inspired word was given to Jews thousands of years ago who spoke Hebrew and even later to people who spoke Greek and Arabic. Just by putting it into English, it’s changed.
One thing you’ll find if you ever have/do read the Bible is that it’s big on function over form.
Christ’s big Sermon on the Mount, the famous one that talks about the meek inheriting the earth and all that, made that explicitly clear.
He went through several laws, saying “You have heard it said…” listing individual sins like murder and adultery before going even further, saying “but I say…” and going on to say that it was your actions that made something sinful but rather what was going on your heart.
That way, you’re not just sinning if you keep from murdering a person you hate, you’re sinning when you hate that person.
Obviously I’m not quoting Jesus verbatim but that’s exactly my point. If the message is understood, either in Greek, English, or ghetto slang, who cares what exact words are used.
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 2:43 PM
Bad Candy:
That was my issue. The Easter Vigil Mass is beautiful, no matter where you attend it.
Which was where I was at. I had bailed and was indifferent, but stumbled across the charasmatic priest. I consider myself lucky.
crazy_legs on July 13, 2007 at 2:43 PM
It could just be the majority of those who call themselves Catholic
as per the poll. I doubt it would describe the majority of Catholics overall.
aengus on July 13, 2007 at 2:47 PM
Yeah, I’m kinda at a half bail stage. I go infrequently, and usually out of habit a this point.
If every mass was celebrated with a strong intensity and devotion of an Easter Vigil Mass, the churches would be standing room only week after week. Nobody beats the Catholic Church in putting together a beautiful and inspiring service when it brings its A game like that.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 2:49 PM
Yes I can see this as acknowledging her for what she was.
But this second part seems to be asking her to intercede on our behest, not in the name of Jesus as he said in John 16:23
Zaire67 on July 13, 2007 at 2:53 PM
And there’s no Scriptural evidence that she can even hear you.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:55 PM
I hate the way Christopher Hitchens in his older writings on Lebanon would always refer to the Maronites “Christian Fascists”. Even Walid Jumblatt said they were the most liberal faction in the civil war.
aengus on July 13, 2007 at 3:00 PM
Yeah, well I hope Hitch feels like crap for it now.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 3:11 PM
I must say todays and yesterdays discussions have reaffirmed my faith.
There seems to be a lot of angry people out their. Angry at what, GOD only knows. That’s why I talk with him in prayer every day – He only knows. And in him I seek rest. I wonder where the haters go for rest. Wherever that is does not appear to be working.
Zaire67 on July 13, 2007 at 3:12 PM
While I’m not Catholic, I’d have to agree. The intensity is what seems to be missing from a lot of American churches, both RC and Prot. The Resurrection is intense. Jesus really did rise from the dead as He told His disciples He would. Makes what is said in the Bible by Him and about Him worth reading. Otherwise, not. No other religion in the world has a founder that is still living.
Vanquisher on July 13, 2007 at 3:22 PM
who cares what exact words are used.
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 2:43 PM
I do.
Since we don’t have the originals but only copies of copies and copies of translations of copies it is of utmost importance to me. Particularly when we have ancient Sumerian texts concerning King Sargon of Akkad that predate Genesis and yet which has a birth story that is remarkably similar to that of Moses.
……My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and […] years I exercised kingship….
So is Moses figurative? Is his story true? Is this evidence of alteration? of folklore being passed on through the ages? Were things added, omitted, or changed? It matters to me.
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 3:44 PM
…which was a good reason to bring back the Old Latin Mass.
manwithblackhat on July 13, 2007 at 3:47 PM
I looked up left-handedness on wikipedia and the article is fascinating. Mentions Nuns AND the Netherlands! And this:
Countless injustices, both large and small, the justification for which may be lost in antiquity, last for centuries in the form of dogma.
A contentious thread like this…it’s strange that no one has (yet) waded in here and asserted that SouthPaws are in fact Evil, the Nuns were Absolutely Correct, and that children should in fact be Forced to Write with their Right Hand.
Well, actually, it’s not so strange. We would be appalled if this was still happening to our children in school. It’s a practice that has all but faded away in our culture. And that brings me to the point I am trying to make. Freedom of religion in this country combined with mass communication has led to some dizzyingly rapid transformations. Beliefs and rituals are phased out, adopted, adapted, co-opted, invented in some cases, and on and on to the extent that some can end up being practically unrecognizable. This is a good thing when dogmas like my SouthPaw example are relegated to history, but other inevitable results include people feeling free to turn their back on the whole concept of organized religion, and folks like the Barna Group doing studies to try to figure it all out.
RushBaby on July 13, 2007 at 3:48 PM
Yeah, The Protestants are really ones to talk, considering they splinter off a new religion regularly.
You know why there are thousands of different Christian denominations? Because whenever a Protestant thinks they know God better than everyone else in the congregation, they go off and form their own church. No wonder they’re so devoted, they literally built the place in their image, and they’re intent on evangelizing everyone else to their way of thinking.
Religious infighting between Protestants and Catholics is idiotic. You know who loves it when we fight? Godless liberals, with no moral compass of their own. They’re too stupid to realize when push comes to shove, we dislike them even more because they’re even more transparent then a lapsed Christian. Most Catholics and Protestants are just trying to lead good lives, godless liberals are the only ones who feel the need to “inject” faith into anything.
BKennedy on July 13, 2007 at 3:54 PM
ITA Mikeyboss.
Living and leading as Christian a life as I can is how I show my devotion to Christ. I personally find the “look at me, see how Christian I am” public displays distasteful and in no way an indication of how Christian someone actually is.
Every Ash Wednesday the reading from Matthew commands us to do exactly the opposite, to pray in private and not make a public scene of ourselves.
Newman65 on July 13, 2007 at 3:57 PM
Catholic and Recovering.
What goes on in Rome, stays in Rome.
Kini on July 13, 2007 at 4:03 PM
Newman65 on July 13, 2007 at 3:57 PM
I believe you hit the nail on the head…because even Christ Himself said the exact same thing. Do not make a public display of oneself.
BKennedy on July 13, 2007 at 3:54 PM
Well said.
Suz on July 13, 2007 at 4:04 PM
And there’s stories that predate them both. So what? It doesn’t logically follow that the story of Moses is a copycat myth, especially when there’s numerous differences.
Moses was an actual person. Of course, if you ask an archaeologist, they’ll tell you their opinion based on whether they’re a minimalist or a maximalist, which is really just their own bias they read into archaeological data or lack thereof.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 4:05 PM
Hey it could be worse. We’re not setting off nail bombs or anything. I get a little heated sometimes and then I pray to calm down.
aengus on July 13, 2007 at 4:27 PM
Well it sure does logically cast some doubt on divine inspiration if someone wrote a remarkably similar story before the one written in Genesis. Unless of course it was popular at the time for women to pack up their babies in reed baskets and throw them into the Euphrates only to have them be discovered and raised by royalty eventually to become leaders themselves.
Yeah your right the differences are numerous. At least they changed the names.
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 4:32 PM
And how does that change things? Let’s say Moses never existed. How does that make your life any different?
Does the story of Moses contradict the rest of the Bible? Does it provide a crucial clue to the mysteries of salvation that are suddenly lost of Moses was not a real person?
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 4:34 PM
How else were they to become leaders?
Though really, it is a tad different in that Moses was born a slave and born in secret only because he would have otherwise been killed.
It’s entirely possible that his sister (the one who put him in the basket) had heard the story you’ve referenced and got her idea to put him in the basket for that reason. Sometimes life does imitate art after all.
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 4:39 PM
If Moses never existed than Genesis is not true. If Genesis is not true there was no creation story. Without a creation story there is no original sin. If there is no original sin then there is no need for a savior.
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 4:41 PM
Lots of things are possible, but are they probable? Its things like this that make you go think something is fishy. It’s the overwhelming accumulation of errors, inconsistancies, improbabilities and immoralities that arise from this book that is supposedly inspired by the very omnipotent, omniscient being that created this amazing universe.
Is it too much to expect that the book I am supposed to rest my eternal soul on not require apologetics?
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 4:58 PM
Totally. I’m not good with languages, but I think I’d really apply myself in learning the mass in Latin.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 4:59 PM
So what’s wrong with that? These are just a few of my favorite things.
I guess I’m part of the 8% that prays to God weekly when I ask him to let me win the power ball!
In all seriousness I was raised as a Catholic and attended Catholic schooling K-12 (except 3rd). I went to a very expense private school for high school which was an ENORMOUS financial sacrifice for my parents. I would never ever trade my 79 out of 168 in the class for #1 in any public school. I learned many worthwhile life lessons and skills which have allowed me to succeed in all facets of my life. Faith, education and leadership skills were emphasized instead of the latest gossip or trends. To this day I’m thankful to my parents for their sacrifice. I guess that’s why many of the kids, eventually mine also, that attend that HS are 2nd, 3rd & 4th generation attendees.
I have made and will make plenty of mistakes in my life but I always made amends and I live a Christian lifestyle. I treat others as I want to be treated and I practice what I preach. In the end, isn’t that all that matters?
VikingGoneWild on July 13, 2007 at 5:28 PM
Well seeing how I am on Hawaii time I always seem to read these things about 5 hours late, so anything I say I am sure has already been said.
This is my personel experiance: I was born and raised catholic, and confirmed at the ripe ade of 17. I left for my parents at 18 for the Navy. Wouldn’t say I became an atheist, but I could have cared less about church or faith. Thank the Lord some protestant friends cared about me and convinced me of the saving grace of Jesus, and I now have a personal relationship with him. I am not speaking for all Catholics, but from my experiance (and the experiances of a very large extended Catholic family) I wouldn’t be suprised to know that most Catholics rely more on tradition than having a personal relationship with God.
submarine_guy on July 13, 2007 at 5:43 PM
I think there are major problems with this survey.
for example if you went to Catholic school it makes sense you would read the Bible less then other chrisitians since you should have already read the whole thing as part of your education. That is like surveying adults on if they reguarly read thier 5th grade history book.
That Catholics become “lapsed” more often then other christians and yet still consider themselves Catholic, I think ironically says something good about Catholocism. It says that that at least parts of the learned philosophies and values are something you always take with you, as opposed to many other denominations in which leaving means you had some kind of epiphany it was flawed and your worldview is turned upside down.
Resolute on July 13, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Resolute, it was my experiance in attending catholic private school that we did little or no reading in the bible at all. Mostly just work boooks on why we do the things we do as catholic, and when I left for the Navy I pretty much left catholocism and later had an epiphany that changed my whole world view.
submarine_guy on July 13, 2007 at 6:20 PM
It’s not as hard as others would have you believe. Much of the English vocabulary is derived from Latin. Most of the faithful follow along in their missal, just as the priest has his.
If tradition is properly understood — that is, that which is handed down as opposed to mere force of habit — there would be no conflict. But hey, maybe that’s just me.
manwithblackhat on July 13, 2007 at 8:06 PM
I can’t say I ever actually sat down and read the Bible like you do with a novel but all the traditions and customs have a root in some section of it that was passed down from the Apostles. What the heck did the workbooks say were the reasons you did them? ROFL
Resolute on July 13, 2007 at 9:11 PM
I can tell you how the politics work in my Catholic, one- party town. Everyone is a liberal Democrat. The city council is full of democrats and has the town in debt. The county is in debt because all of the office holders, even the sheriff, are democrats. Almost every office holder is a Catholic. So, if you don’t go to church with these people you aren’t in the club. If you aren’t in the club and you aren’t in the party you will never hold office. Single party politics. Every Catholic I know believes in abortion. Our newspaper has letters to the editor from Catholics on a regular basis supporting abortion. I think the Catholic church is out of touch with its members. The Church believes one thing and the members do and believe another.
Terri on July 13, 2007 at 9:36 PM
Very different here. Most Catholics around here are very pro-life. What you point out though is a problem. Some Catholics (usually liberal) use church as a social club.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 9:46 PM
Bad Candy basically summed up what I was going to say. My church is very pro-life, conservative (at least from what I’ve seen so far), and family-oriented. The “congregation” at the Church Terri’s talking about aren’t Christian, much less Catholic.
crazy_legs on July 13, 2007 at 9:51 PM
You could have researched our arguments against this if you had wanted to. Much of what you’re stating is ‘argument by outrage,’ a debate tactic many atheists use to show that their morality is superior to the Bible, therefore the claims made by the Bible are invalid. Although this works to sway the audience, it doesn’t use logic nor does it prove anything. Also, it calls into question the moral standard by which you judge the Bible’s morality.
As I said, even if the Sargon narrative predates that of Moses, and that may or may not be true, it doesn’t logically follow that the story of Moses is a copycat. There are similarities in the opening paragraph, but there are also differences. After the opening paragraph, the story diverges greatly from the Sargon narrative.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 10:26 PM
You’ve got it backwards. The Catholic Church and the billion plus members it represents abhor abortion. Its the people in your town who are out of touch.
aengus on July 13, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Lance on July 13, 2007 at 11:29 PM
You disgust me…I’m ashamed that you are a conservative, and I am lumped in with people like you, PRCalDude, et al…As far as I’m concerned, you are little different then the anti-Catholic rednecks I grew up with in the deep South. No doubt you’d find great company with KKKers who burn crosses…just mention the Catholic Church and you’d guys have a lot talk about! Idiots.
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 12:30 AM
Lighten up, Will. It’s a joke.
The Pope says his is the only true church, which is preposterous. I’m neither KKK nor southern. My wife is Catholic (devout), so are both my kids, and they thought it was funny too.
Plus, I phoned the Pope. He thought it was funny. So did all the other Vatican boys wearing those funny hats. Mel Gibson emailed me with his chuckles as well. I love Catholics. I just think the Pope is full of it.
After all, he was a Hitler Youth, that makes him a former Nazi at the very least. Since you’re sticking up for him, it looks like you’re the ones who like to burn things.
Not me. I’m an old soldier who doesn’t like violence. I never liked it. I was just serving my beloved USA. I pray for peace…and for the Pope to get a new hat.
FYI: I’m a disabled Americam Veteran, 100% DAVPRM. I believe I earned my right to speak my mind. How about you? You have the right whether you earned it or not, even if only by proxy. And religious intolerance works both ways. We slam militant Muslims for it, yet we do the same thing here. You just did it.
I’ll pray for you to gain tolerance, Will…and pray the Pope gets a new hat that looks less like a penis.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 12:58 AM
If the Catholic church (as an institution) continues sliding down like it has, it may just end up as one of the false churches – that Jesus will rebuke at His coming for a lukewarm stance on Christianity. That’s not to say there aren’t any good and decent Catholics. I know a few.
So the Arabs invented the bitchslap?
Whoa. Bo-nus.
Ryan Gandy on July 14, 2007 at 1:04 AM
I’ll be praying for that, too.
Ryan Gandy on July 14, 2007 at 1:06 AM
I love your posts.
Nonfactor on July 14, 2007 at 1:09 AM
Of course, he never actually said that…If you are interested in learning about what he actually said, read this, written by an Eastern Orthodox writer: http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2538
You’ll forgive me if I have a hard time believing that someone who calls the Pope a gay Nazi has a devout wife that thinks that’s hilarious. Of course, it’s possible, some people have terrible sense of humor. As far as the Nazi thing, where to start. So being a compelled member of a group when you are a CHILD makes you a Nazi for the rest of your life? VERY INTERESTING…
ABSOLUTE MORAL AUTHORITY!!!! Thank you for your service, but doesn’t mean I can’t think your views are idiotic and childish.
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 1:12 AM
Wasn’t finished:
ME to gain tolerance? I’m not the one calling people “gay Nazis”? Sorry, my tolerance does not extend to stupidity…
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 1:13 AM
I never said anything bad about Catholics. I was arguing that the various claims of the Roman church, namely sola ecclesia, papal infallibility, etc, are unbiblical. That doesn’t say anything about the individual Romanist. You took it that way, but I never said it. We can disagree on doctrine and not say anything bad about one another, I’m sure you’ll agree.
PRCalDude on July 14, 2007 at 1:29 AM
Truth hurts, doesn’t it?
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 1:29 AM
Will seems to have a bee in his bonnet, PRCalDude.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 1:30 AM
Yes, the truth that there are mindless conservatives that I am ashamed to have on my “side.”
Yea, it’s this little bee called “ignorant people.” It bothers me almost everyday…Sigh. Well, guess I’ll go back and worship the Gay Nazi!
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 1:38 AM
Fair enough, if that were only the case…Inevitably a discussion about theology devolves into Protestants calling the Church the “whore of Babylon,” a “corrupt, secular organization,” a “assembly line for atheists” and run by a “gay Nazi.” You’ll forgive me if I don’t have a favorable view of your “side” based on those little gems found in this thread.
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 1:41 AM
Come on Will, now you’re cheating. I neither said nor inferred anything like that. I was alluding to free speech and how we all have it, but some worked harder for it while others got it by proxy. I noticed you didn’t say you served.
And I don’t lie. My wife and kids are normal…and Catholic…and they liked the joke.
Let’s recap: You’ve been intolerant of my right to free speech, you’ve called me a liar, and you’ve twisted my words. Gosh Will, what next? You gonna burn me in effigy?
This will be my last response and my last trip here because I’ve learned many lessons on the web, but none as clear as what happens when one encounters the intolerant. The conversation never ends unless one party exercises more grown-upness than the other and bows out. The intolerant are just that…intolerant.
Like I said, Will, I’ll pray for your tolerance… and for the Pope to lose the Penis Hat…
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 1:43 AM
Oh, and you called me an idiot…doesn’t that violate the Terms of Service here?
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 1:44 AM
In my experience, people always come back to read a response to their comment, even if they don’t respond back…So here you go, Lance…
When will stupid people realize that just because you have free speech doesn’t mean you can’t be criticized for what you are saying? I’m not trying to force you to not say it. Call the Pope a “gay Nazi”…but I’m called you an “ignorant bigot” because of it…
Never called you a liar, just said I had a hard time believing that calling the Pope a “Gay Nazi” had a Catholic family…also said it was quite possible, maybe they just had a bad sense of humor…In fact, the only thing I’ve called you is ignorant…and I’m certainly not going to apologize for that. “Reading comprehension,” Lance: GOOGLE IT
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 1:49 AM
Lance, please don’t leave. A wonderful variety of points of view are vented here at Hot Air. It’s a tough room, but you are welcome here.
RushBaby on July 14, 2007 at 1:59 AM
You’re right, Will. I did return, however, it’s against my usual policy. But someone here who knows me liked the exchange so much, they begged me to return, so here’s my encore performance just for you and the crowd, Will.
Let’s see, you called me an idiot, which is sometimes correct, sometimes not, and in this case absolutely not.
You sound like you’ve memorized all the conservative talking points, like:
Yawn. How can I compete with genius like this?
But seriously Will, do you have any original thoughts, or do you rely on belching up these little snippets from time to time in order to impress the party-guests?
And you still haven’t said whether you served your country or not. What’s the deal, Will?
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 2:24 AM
It really is all about doctrine. Evangelical churches encourage their congregations to study the Bible on their own. It is not that hard to understand. We do not need institutions and rituals to have a relationship with God through his Son. That is the basis of Christianity. That is why Protestants take issue with what the pope has said. He started this discussion with his remark. It is this remark that has sown seeds of discord.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 2:24 AM
Thanks for the kind words, RushBaby. I run a blog, but read few blogs. I’m usually too busy, so leaving comments is even more rare for me. But when I’m greeted by multi-dimensional folks like Will, it makes it all worth my time.
For instance, just this evening I learned that I’m an “idiot,” who’s “stupid,” an “ignorant bigot,” all topped off by a “reading comprehension,” problem…all according to Will.
Thanks, Will. Feedback is good.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 2:37 AM
Somebody give Rose a rose.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 2:37 AM
And that is precisely why “my fellow Protestants”, including me, need to always remember WHO the Protestant Reformation was really about:
Jesus Christ and his gracious “grace” doing for ColtsFan what he himself and all sinners cannot do for themselves when they foolishly attempt to try to please a holy God with human merit. This is impossible. The only solution is to trust completely in Christ via faith alone, with no ounce of human merit mixed in.
Calling people names, taking cheap shots, making ad hominen statements, and focusing on secondary issues only detract from what should be our primary purpose as Christians:
showing how our Lord Jesus Christ supplies a
life-giving alternative to all the worldly counterfeits in our time.
ColtsFan on July 14, 2007 at 2:43 AM
P.S. The Pope just emailed me with both good news and bad news.
The good news: He said he was going to purchase a new hat.
The bad news: The new hat will look even more like a penis.
Thanks a lot, Will.
Now the blogospere will be abuzz about the Papal Tiara (Penis Hat).
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 2:53 AM
In rolls another expert and holier-than-thou Christian. Those commie ad hominems, and idiotic pejoratives suck!
Oh boy. It’s starting to look like a gang build up in here. Where’s Will? I’ll bet he’s off cutting out that cardboard effigy of me.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 2:58 AM
With a leader like Pople Ratz, can you blame them?
saved on July 14, 2007 at 9:17 AM
Lance…Lance, Lance, Lance, Lance…
You have yet to reply to any substantive point I’ve made: all you continue to say is: the Pope has a penis hat, Pope Ratz is gay, you haven’t said whether you served or not…Yes, that makes you an utter moron in my book. “Wah! He called me a MORON! Let’s ban him! Oh, wait, I was just the one crying about free speech and censorship! Maybe I should shut up so I don’t look like such a tool to everyone…” If you don’t think that serving in the armed forces gives you more of a right to free speech, why do you keep bringing it up? Also, as far as the “conservative talking points,” uh…whether or not those are “conservative talking points” is debatable…it still doesn’t change the fact that I’m going to criticize you for saying stupid, stupid things… It was against my better judgment that I decided engage you anti-Catholic neanderthals, but oh well, some things never change: there will always be ignorant bigots in the world, unfortunately.
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 9:35 AM
It was the other way around for my father, who was raised Protestant and became a Catholic shortly befored he married my mother.
Connie on July 14, 2007 at 10:51 AM
If one agrees with the Catholic church on a doctrinal basis they should be able to defend that position without calling people who do not “Neanderthals”.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 1:18 PM
Oh Rose, it’s really not all that complicated:
This isn’t about doctrine, this about idiots calling the Pope a “gay Nazi with a penis hat” and other such inflammatory remarks…Whenever one engages with radical Protestants on Catholicism it inevitably devolves into your side saying things like that about the Church. That’s all I’m objecting to…I don’t think all people who defend Protestantism are “neanderthals,” just those who call the Pope a “gay Nazi.” Pretty simple, huh?
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 1:42 PM
Snark doesn’t win arguments. There are those on this thread who have tried reasoned debate and those who haven’t. Your statement appeared to be directed at all posters who did not agree with you.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 1:54 PM
Round 2 of the anti Catholicism that I never expected on this blog. Why are you Prods in such a twist over what His Holiness has to say? You separated yourselves from the Truth five hundred years ago, starting with Luther, and have been devolving ever more swiftly ever since. Those of us who are Catholic, and are proud to be so, practice what our faith teaches. I attend the Tridentine Rite Mass, and follow what the Church teaches. I do believe what His Holiness teaches, and respectfully decline to throw stones at the Protestant heretics. You belittle yourselves, and not the Catholic Church, with such boorish comments. The Church has survived the last two thousand years of Arianism, Jansenism, Protestant, Muslim, and all other heresies, She will survive your pettiness.
trainwife1962 on July 14, 2007 at 1:54 PM
You say that you do not attack but you claim the “Truth”. By that statement you open yourself up for rebuttal. You will not escape that because you do not have claim to the “Truth”. The pettiness is on your side because of your arrogance.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 2:10 PM
Maybe ColtsFan can answer the question I posed in the other thread: If Jesus/God made us in His image, who made God?
B26354 on July 14, 2007 at 3:28 PM
Hi, B26354:
You have raised a good philosophical question.
Allah pulled the comment thread quickly on this topic, so I have not been checking back.
If you want to continue this topic, maybe we can set up something on the website below at Lion of Judah-Journal.
This is what I am thinking as noted below in the running thread on the Hindu prayer issue.
Check out my comments on this running thread,towards the very end.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/12/video-three-arrested-after-disrupting-hindu-prayer-in-senate/
ColtsFan on July 14, 2007 at 12:58 AM
What I said to Nonfactor and others, also applies equally to you. Feel free to continue the dialogue and excellent discussion on this topic.
Right now, I am at work so I do not have much time for an appropriate response.
ColtsFan on July 14, 2007 at 3:53 PM
Newsflash: 99% of truly devout believers believe their faith is the one True faith.
In other words, stop being preachy busybodies. Protestants can believe the Pope, the Priesthood, and the Trinity are full of hat [Note: these beliefs vary depending on which of the hundreds of protestant sects you are talking about] and Catholics can believe most evangelicals are heretics doubting the Lord’s power because they think the eucharist and the cup are simply simbolic representations, despite Jesus’ direct quote: “this IS my body, which will be given up for you” and “this IS my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant, it will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven, do this in memory of me.”
That’s your main theological divide among Christians folks. Get used to it.
BKennedy on July 14, 2007 at 4:08 PM
The statement “get used to it” does not settle anything. It is an arrogant response. There is nothing wrong with a discussion on Christian doctrine. If that offends you then maybe you need to “get used to it”.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 4:40 PM
Will somebody please give Rose another rose!
Will, Will, Will, Will…
So now I can add “moron” and “Neanderthal” to my list of attributes. Wow, this will make for one powerful resume!
Gosh Will, I don’t know how to thank you except to say that I’m going right out to purchase a brand new, Papal perfect, rhinestone-studded, Penis Tiara for my uncircumcised cranium. And I have to tell you, Will, after all this great feedback from you, my hat size just doubled. You’re a real pal.
Right now I have to sever my unbiblical cord and get back to my blog. Thanks again, Will!
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 4:59 PM
You tell ‘em Rose. A rose by any other name could smell Will’s feet…
I feel like singing that Bee Gee’s song “I Started A Joke, but the Joke was on Will…”
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 5:07 PM
THAT’S your response? I think my 10 year old cousin could think of something better… Uh, if you want to say the “penis tiara” thing was just a big “joke,” that’s fine…knock yourself out…It’s not particularly funny, I don’t think, unless you are a perverted retard, but different strokes for different folks, eh? But let’s be honest, Lance, it goes much more than just a joke…the jokes mask the underlying feelings you have:YOU DON’T LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH…YOU ARE AN ANTI-CATHOLIC BIGOT…you are not someone who just made an off-hand remark about the Pope’s hat, your blog is full of insulting stuff. You could care less about being offensive or tolerant…you are a just a sad little person who can’t take what he dishes out and hides behind an anonymous blog…VERY VERY BRAVE.
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 5:25 PM
Must have hit a nerve. The Truth is the Truth, and Protestants can’t change that fact. Protestants broke with the Truth, and your over the top hysteria simply amplifies that fact.
trainwife1962 on July 14, 2007 at 6:23 PM
Lance, you’re not helping. At. All. Are you sure you’re not just here trying to make Protestants look bad?
PRCalDude on July 14, 2007 at 6:29 PM
I think the divide is over justification. We disagree about other things, but justification is the main issue: how is one right with God??
PRCalDude on July 14, 2007 at 6:50 PM
One is right with GOd by following his commandments and by loving his neighbor as himself.
trainwife1962 on July 14, 2007 at 6:59 PM
Yes, and not only those in the Catholic church. The Pope does not have the “Truth” if he thinks he is the only one who has it.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 7:26 PM
What do you make of this? Romans 3:
And
PRCalDude on July 14, 2007 at 7:46 PM
Will,
One of our blog writers wrote a post just for you and another “tolerant” guy named Bob:
Check it out.
You’re quite the hero behind your keyboard while dressed in your soiled undies, Will.
I really hate to say this, but I’m smarter, faster, braver, handsomer, and wittier than you. I didn’t try to be. I didn’t want to be. I just am.
Yawn.
And you still never said whether you served your country or not. So why don’t I just say that you didn’t. It’ll only sting for a short while. Was it the physical you couldn’t pass, or did you think only “idiots” like me joined up?
Stay tuned for more links to articles on Catholics. BBL.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 7:49 PM
Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. This does not give salvation by itself but it is a commandment by the savior. It is how we are to live. It is a product of our salvation. Salvation itself can only come through faith in and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.
Rose on July 14, 2007 at 7:51 PM
I’ve noticed this a lot on this blog…intellectual lightweights just recycle the criticism that was thrown at them…See it was ME who was first calling you a coward for hiding behind an anonymous blog spouting your anti-Catholic bigotry…remember?
]
No, I seriously doubt all of those things…but I guess we’ll never know…you know, the whole anonymous blog thing on the Internet. Tool.
Well, no, I haven’t, but I’m still in my early 20s (how does it feel to be bandied about my someone no doubt at least half your age?), so there’s always the possibility…For a time, I was seriously considering going to West Point, but I chose another direction in life…Although, truth be known, I sometimes think I should’ve gone.
WillBarrett on July 14, 2007 at 8:27 PM
We had a major storm and with a black out for 9 hours, then a second time for 3 hours. I haven’t had much time to respond, and lost comments twice before I could send them. Such is life. Now I’m rushed.
Go read the article that ripped you a new rear door. It’s good. Lawrence is good. I’m just bored with you at this point and have important things to do.
I’ve seen little girls like you talk tough all over the web. Your mind is as narrow and pompous as exists in this world, and your intellect and education are minimal (I don’t care how many sheepskins you have, they didn’t take). You judge everything as if life radiates from you out–not even close.
I hate to wrinkle your pretty pink panties, but you’re a P000$$eee and that’s a fact. Anonymous? Let’s meet!
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 8:45 PM
I travel for Uncle Sugar frequently (DoD), so I’m air mobile.
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 8:48 PM
Lance on July 14, 2007 at 8:50 PM
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