Poll: Catholics markedly less devout than most Americans
posted at 11:24 am on July 13, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Well, the good news is, they’re fully assimilated. And then some. Wow:
All five of the faith-related attitudes tested showed a gap between Catholics and other Americans. Among the elements tested were people’s highest priority in life (Catholics were only half as likely as others to mention their faith, and a majority identified family as their priority) and their commitment to the Christian faith (44% of Catholics claimed to be “absolutely committed” compared to 54% of the entire adult population)…
Of the dozen faith-oriented behaviors tested, Catholics strayed from the norm in relation to eight of the 12 items. Specifically, the typical Catholic person donated about 17% less money to churches; was 38% less likely than the average American to read the Bible; 67% less likely to attend a Sunday school class; 20% less likely to share their faith in Christ with someone who had different beliefs; 24% less likely to say their religious faith has greatly transformed their life; and were 36% less likely to have an “active faith,” which Barna defined as reading the Bible, praying and attending a church service during the prior week. However, Catholics were 16% more likely than the norm to attend a church service and 8% more likely to have prayed to God during the prior week.
The spiritual beliefs of Catholics are also substantially different from the typical views of Americans. Catholics differed from most people on seven of the 11 belief-focused questions raised. For instance, Catholics were significantly less likely to believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches and only half as likely to maintain that they have a responsibility to share their faith with others. They were more likely than the norm to say that Satan is not real; to believe that eternal salvation is earned; and to contend that Jesus Christ sinned while on earth…
The moral behaviors of Catholics also stood out in several areas. Among the 16 moral behaviors examined, Catholics were notably more likely to not say mean things about people behind their back, and were more likely to engage in recycling. However, they were also twice as likely to view pornographic content on the Internet and were more likely to use profanity, to gamble, and to buy lottery tickets.
The phenomenon of lapsed Catholics has been more common in my experience than lapsed Protestants, but having been raised Catholic I’m probably suffering from sample bias. Anyone have any theories as to why the data here is what it is? Any theories, I mean, that don’t involve denigrating the Church the way some of our more nuanced Protestant readers did in the thread about the Pope a few days ago? For some, I guess, if it’s not Muslims or Hindus, the nearest target will do.
As an inducement to thoughtful responses, I offer you this piece from former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson about how atheists really do believe in god no matter what they may think or say. Sigh.
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Allahpundit
Ahhh, no wonder you are a atheist…
doriangrey on July 13, 2007 at 11:28 AM
Well, I suspect the results have something to do with the key involvement of an ex-Catholic, now an Evangelical. I say this as a non-Catholic, non-Evangelical. I think the criteria used to determine ‘devoutness’ are skewed toward Evangelical Protestant standards.
However, in general there is something to the fact that as Catholics move beyond the ethnic enclaves that were still prominent in the 1950s, they become less strongly Catholic as an all-embracing identity. I believe George Wiegel and Gary Wills, who don’t agree on much, agree on this point.
Thomas the Wraith on July 13, 2007 at 11:31 AM
I know very little about Catholicism in general, but this has been my experience as well.
My father was raised Catholic but never considered himself really a Christian until he and my mother began attending a Protestant church together.
Of the Catholics I knew in school, one approached me, rather than anyone at her church, for spiritual advice.
My guess is that Catholics favor tradition and ceremony over theological study and a personal relationship with Christ. I’m not saying this to demean Catholics, but only as my guess of what might cause the results of this study.
My father had mass in Latin, a language he never understood, which seems to point more towards worry about tradition rather than making sure the message is getting through to the congregation. I think this no longer happens, but it’s just one example I’ve heard.
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 11:33 AM
Personally, I don’t have much faith in organized religion of any kind. Mind you, I consider myself a Christian, read my bible, and try to hold myself to God’s teachings. The problem I have with religion is that they all seem to be too damned busy trying to convince you that their way is the only true way to get to heaven. I know many people who are very involved with their churches, and have absolutely no problem with that. The problem is that all of them want world peace, but most will only accept it their way. There isn’t much room for discussion.
Kowboy on July 13, 2007 at 11:34 AM
I read this earlier and noticed it was out of California…if the poll was taken there I’d say it’s not that relevant to the rest of the country…
DCJeff on July 13, 2007 at 11:35 AM
To clarify, what I mean is that he didn’t think much, or at all, about his father until attending a different church. He considered himself a Christian but didn’t identify himself as one in his daily life.
It was more something he did on the weekend rather than a way of life.
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 11:35 AM
I was also raised Catholic. I think after a while, all the pagentry and Virgin Mary worship is so obviously a product of human beings, most Catholics come to the unspoken conclusion that there couldn’t possibly be a God behind all of it. God doesn’t want us to eat meat on Fridays? Really? That’s stupid and petty. If there was a God, He sure as hell wouldn’t make piddling little rules like that. Ergo, there can’t really be a God.
Catholicism – It’s like an ATHEIST ASSEMBLY LINE.
Enrique on July 13, 2007 at 11:36 AM
Here’s an analogy based on the fact that I haven’t eaten breakfast yet.
Catholics are to Christianity what vegans are to vegetarianism.
I have encountered a broad range of so-called vegetarians. Some of them avoid all meat. Others eat chicken or fish. Some wear leather but don’t eat dairy.
Vegans however must avoid consumption of all animal-based food and other products.
My point. It’s easier to fall from devout Catholicism. Whereas being a fairly good Christian only requires that you follow a varying set of tenets while adhering to only a few set beliefs.
I’m neither Catholic, nor vegetarian. But I am hungry.
Ciao.Chow!The Race Card on July 13, 2007 at 11:36 AM
AP–the link to the Michael Gerson piece is the same link as to the interruption of the Hindu prayer, fyi
I also only have a limited sample, and therefore a bias, concerning the Roman Catholic Church. I have attended with family members who are, and from that and from what they have said it seems that church members are not encouraged to read the Bible for themselves. One of the reasons there was a Reformation was the insistence by Luther, Wycliffe and others that the common people should be able to read it in their own language. If one commits to reading and applying the Bible, behavior changes are inevitable. Not all Protestant churches encourage Bible reading either, as the Episcopalian/Muslim priest issue shows.
Vanquisher on July 13, 2007 at 11:37 AM
The manner in which the Church taught its doctrine had much to do with it.
My grandmother used to tell me that the nuns taught them that simply looking upon a Protestant Church would cause one’s soul/eyes to burn.
The Vatican Councils (I & II) were supposed to have gutted these silly scare tactics, although “liberalizing” the traditional Mass widely regarded as the downfall.
Other commentators argue the first modern “crisis” was the Pope’s decision to forbid artificial birth control (ironically, he feared that allowing its use would cause an outrage so great the Church would crumble). Indeed, many
Here in the Archdiocese of Boston (and in my parish in particular), we have a very simple explanation….
cadetwithchips2 on July 13, 2007 at 11:42 AM
I was raised as a Catholic, went to Catholic schools, but religion was never anything more to me than another school subject. Learning prayers and when to kneel and stand was just like studying for a math test. Now, as an adult, I’ve become a member of a non-denominational chuch, and couldn’t be happier. IMO, there is no passion in the Catholic church, so there is little to garner inspiration from. But at the same time, everbody sins, so it means nothing to me that some poll says Catholics “do this or that” more often than other groups.
revolutionismyname on July 13, 2007 at 11:43 AM
I think it boils down to lack of priests and nuns and the effect on education and money. A lot of churches and Catholic schools in the northeast have been forced to close down because they just can’t afford to operate. The neighborhood Catholic parish of the 1950’s is gone in many cases. The Catholics have moved out to the suburbs, away from their traditional neighborhoods.
Catholic schools have just become too expensive. In the past you had a large number of priests and nuns who were the teachers, now the number of teachers and nuns has declined so much, those positions have to be filled with lay teachers with higher salaries.
Also, a lot of Catholics were immigrants, or maybe 2nd or 3rd generation 50-75 years ago. Legal Catholic immigration has slowed considerably. As each generation emerges and becomes more Americanized, more attached the material wealth, it’s harder to get people to join the seminary. Not to mention the vow of celibacy…
reaganaut on July 13, 2007 at 11:45 AM
PIMF: ;)
…indeed many priests and laymen left the Church after that decistion
cadetwithchips2 on July 13, 2007 at 11:45 AM
Ya, that’s a very limited sample. As well as a few other examples that were listed.
reaganaut on July 13, 2007 at 11:51 AM
reaganaut on July 13, 2007 at 11:45 AM
I think What you are pointing to is an effect, not a cause.
Less active Catholics leads to less priests.
And that does have much to do with celibacy, but more to do with economy. Centuries ago, second-born sons became priests, because first-born sons were the inheritors. No longer is that the case. There is simply less incentive (aside from celibacy) to enter the priesthood today.
cadetwithchips2 on July 13, 2007 at 11:52 AM
Is the Pope holding up his estimate of strictly practicing Catholics in America?
profitsbeard on July 13, 2007 at 11:53 AM
FTA:
Going to church, yes could be considered tradition and ceremony, but I think praying to God shows a personal relationship with Christ.
BohicaTwentyTwo on July 13, 2007 at 11:59 AM
I think it is because most Catholics are born Catholic, which really doesn’t require any commitment on their part. Those that convert to Catholicism are hard core, believe me!
People who become evangelical are looking for something, and if the right vibe hits them they are filled with a burning in their heart for Jesus and are much more committed than a cradle catholic who stumbled into it.
As for Sunday school, down here in the south the mega churches have all sorts of activities set up for the family, keeping you doing something church-wise all morning. And then again on Wednesday. With Catholics, Mass is one hour long…if it starts running over that people get antsy.
I’d also argue that Protestant churches do a great deal of self promotion; look at how many here know the speaking points for bashing Catholics. Catholics aren’t really pushed into the finer points of what they believe. You can go to church every Sunday and while all sorts of extra classes, seminars and retreats are offered, there’s really no pressure to go to it. So a Catholic has a good knowledge of prayers and songs, but maybe not too keen on why they are taught about purgatory or what temporal punishment is. Making the weaker Catholics easy pickings for Evangelicals btw.
Catholics go to church more because we are taught it is a sin to not keep the Sabbath holy. Some protestant churches aren’t that strict with church attendance. Sure, some are, but there are so many you can’t really group them.
tlynch001 on July 13, 2007 at 12:00 PM
TWO reasons.
one mentioned above: Virgin Mary worship –
and second and MOST important.
Catholics worship a cross with Jesus STILL ON IT? Why?
CHRIST IS RISEN – ALIVE as OUR LORD.
shooter on July 13, 2007 at 12:01 PM
the michael gerson link is broken i think.
jummy on July 13, 2007 at 12:06 PM
“one mentioned above: Virgin Mary worship -”
oy vey…
“Catholics worship a cross with Jesus STILL ON IT? Why?”
A) Catholics don’t worship a cross (or Crucifix if Jesus is portrayed on it) anymore than you worship that bible you carry around and b)Because Catholics believe we were saved by Jesus dying, not by him coming back to life, as your empty crosses seem to imply. Really, do you stop and think about these things or just spout off whatever your Bob Jones trained preacher says?
tlynch001 on July 13, 2007 at 12:08 PM
I don’t think they’re worshiping the cross anymore than Protestants worship the cross. And really, having Him on it is no different than making it empty, because it’s still all about reminding us what He did.
If you want to make a point of Him rising from the dead, keep up pictures of the empty tomb, not His empty cross.
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 12:09 PM
Kimmer on July 13, 2007 at 12:10 PM
I wonder though, would His death have meant anything had He not come back to life?
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Come back to the Dark Side Allahpundit. Emporer Benedict awaits your return, just as your father before you.
BKennedy on July 13, 2007 at 12:11 PM
tlynch001 on July 13, 2007 at 12:08 PM
Whoa, somebody’s got their Catholic panties in a bunch…
doriangrey on July 13, 2007 at 12:12 PM
I had a Catholic friend once describe the difference between Catholic beliefs and other Christian religons as, “We believe everything you believe, only moreso.”
Disclaimer: I’m a fisheater
BohicaTwentyTwo on July 13, 2007 at 12:13 PM
More of this crap?
TheBigOldDog on July 13, 2007 at 12:13 PM
I’m with cadet. My mother was raised Catholic and told how the nuns would beat her hands with a ruler, because she was left-handed.
Her parents were a doctor and a nurse in a remote part of Canada, living among the indigenous Indians. My mom learned more spirituality riding in a canoe with a wise Indian, long stories not appropriate here.
My mother remained a Christian, but never attended services outside of weddings and funerals.
RushBaby on July 13, 2007 at 12:14 PM
No. No more than any other false prophet.
right2bright on July 13, 2007 at 12:15 PM
The old joke rings more true than false…
What is the difference between a Lutheran and Catholic?
The Lutheran reads the bible.
right2bright on July 13, 2007 at 12:16 PM
Allah, your second link is the same as the first link, FYI.
infidel4life on July 13, 2007 at 12:19 PM
Oops, make that third same as second.
infidel4life on July 13, 2007 at 12:20 PM
LOL. As my equally Lutheran spouse says, Lutherans are Catholic=lite.
Kimmer on July 13, 2007 at 12:21 PM
The Roman Catholic church has been the greatest gift to modern atheism that ever was. I tons of ex-Roman Catholic atheists.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 12:23 PM
I have a USB flashing red light that is programmed to go off when the pope’s picture is posted on HotAir. w00t w00t w00t flame on!
tlynch001 on July 13, 2007 at 12:23 PM
Dammit. Enrique beat me to it.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 12:25 PM
When I was young, a friend of mine told me he wouldn’t go to church because of all the hypocrites there. This was despite the fact that he got something out of the service. People are fallible…There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it.
Asher on July 13, 2007 at 12:26 PM
This might be the Gerson link (?)
RushBaby on July 13, 2007 at 12:26 PM
THANK YOU!
Jesus would just be another Prophet had he not Risen, that IS the ENTIRETY OF CHRISTIANITY.
Christ fulfilled 300 + prophecies including rising from the dead, it IS what makes him CHRIST!
shooter on July 13, 2007 at 12:28 PM
I had one for Fred!, but it burned out from overuse long ago.
BohicaTwentyTwo on July 13, 2007 at 12:29 PM
If you look at the study it is somewhat skewed by its Protestant creator. I think the earlier article linked in the headlines mentioned the controversy. Catholics don’t have a Sunday school structure for adults so this question is like saying 92% of men don’t use the ladies room – Shock! This does not say that it is good or bad but it is just a statistic in a rather small sample. I would think most of us, by now, know not to trust polls or statistics very much.
DrM2B on July 13, 2007 at 12:30 PM
Only 92%?
Esthier on July 13, 2007 at 12:31 PM
You are not from California I take it?
right2bright on July 13, 2007 at 12:39 PM
Sunday school!?!
When has Sunday school ever been a Catholic staple? I always thought Sunday school was for people who, unlike Catholics in Catholic school, weren’t getting religious education 5 days/week 9 months/year for 12+ years already.
Kensington on July 13, 2007 at 12:39 PM
Let’s look at the data:
So they’re not reading their Bibles or witnessing about they’re faith as much as other Americans, but they are attending worship and praying to the God that the Roman Catholic church defines.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 12:40 PM
*their
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 12:41 PM
For all you crying “bashing” on Catholics, please stop the game of yelling “bigot” every time someone disagrees with you or questions your theology. It’s manipulating feelings to get people to stop disagreeing with you, just debate with facts or walk away.
I think that is what is going on in my Catholic family. Those that still consider themselves Catholic were told they were Catholic from an early age, it’s easy, they are in, the chosen ones by matter of birth and baptism. They just show up on Easter and Christmas, and skip the rest.
I’m talking about the people in my very large family, (I’m the seventh child). But it follows along the same lines as the survey. Go figure.
jjjen on July 13, 2007 at 12:49 PM
That was the best religious comment I’ve ever read from you, Enrique. Thank you.
It was only a few years ago (when I got into online chatting) that I noticed atheists were overwhelmingly raised Catholic. It seems it’s been going on like that for awhile – like over 200 years:
angryoldfatman on July 13, 2007 at 12:54 PM
T
Interesting read
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 12:54 PM
I think that the polls are a reflection of what has been taught in the Catholic Church in the last century.
It’s not wonder that Catholics are confused in their faith when they see their leaders allowing statues of Buddha in the sanctuary (as Pope John Paul II did in Assisi), and others advancing the idea that one religion is as good as another (ecuminism)…
So basically, where’s the motivation for a Catholic to remain a Catholic?
To Shooter…Catholics don’t worship statues, and we don’t worship the Virgin Mary. Catholics believe that there is a communion between the Church in Heaven and the Church on earth, so we ask Our Lady to pray (intercede) for us. We also believe that Christ died for our sins, and that His Sacrifice is what opened the doors of Heaven…not his Resurrection. His Resurrection is an affirmation that He is Who He said He was. Seeing Christ on the Cross, which is the way He chose to die, is a reminder of how horrible sin is (He died for our sins) and the infinite love He has for us…us being everyone who ever lived or will live. That’s really all statues, crucifixes, icons, prayer cards are…reminders.
soccercheese on July 13, 2007 at 12:55 PM
Bad sentence structure back there, it should read “I noticed an overwhelming number of atheists were raised Catholic”. Pardon me.
angryoldfatman on July 13, 2007 at 12:56 PM
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
:rolleyes:
angryoldfatman on July 13, 2007 at 12:58 PM
I would second those comments about the emphasis on tradition being a driving force behind this. The amount of rules and regulations that go into Mass, and being a Catholic, probably give more encouragement to just walk away from it. Like someone said, does God really care about eating fish on Friday? Most, or at least a lot, of the Protestant churches focus more just on the Bible and personal relationship w/ Christ issues, which is probably more spiritually fulfilling.
Just my two cents, no need for you Papists to take offense. haha
brak on July 13, 2007 at 12:58 PM
Angryoldfatman it would be ever so much more profound and impressive of you to actually read the article and make your own assertions as to why it is wrong. To dismiss the article outright because you don’t care for the source only shows that you sir evidently, aren’t up to the challenge. Pity.
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 1:04 PM
I was born a Catholic whose parents didn’t preach but did see that we attended church and followed up with confirmation. Today, I am an atheist and have developed my own philosophy of life. The reason I began to question the teachings of the church as taught by the priests and nuns was simple: they could not or would not answer my questions, ever! When I asked how Cain could go out and get married and have children when there were only three “people”, or when I asked other similar type question I was told to have “blind” faith. By the time I was thirteen I had a “click” moment. Click: aha! There is no god, the bible is not set in concrete and humans are fallible. But the other thing that made me an ex-Catholic, Christian, etc., was the fear that the church instilled in me. I have learned that the opposite of hate and fear is not love, it is indifference and when one reaches a state of indifference, then other things can be conceived and achieved. I have never taught my children about bogeymen, I have done everything in my power to explain clearly and fully so that they don’t have fear and make their own informed decisions are they matured. And, it has happened just like that, for my kids. But, I am not stupid and understand that the reason America exists at all in this world full of violence, stupidity and hatred is because of a concept developed over two thousand years called the Judeo-Christian philosophy. No, it is not perfect. What is? But, it encompasses what it should mean to be a human being, not just a homo sapien.
sharinlite on July 13, 2007 at 1:05 PM
The Mass is full of Bible passages, and there are different readings from the Bible at every Mass. Many Popes have encouraged Bible reading in their encyclicals…
soccercheese on July 13, 2007 at 1:08 PM
I will just say this:
There is no need to get into a debate with PRCalDude and his ilk, because they are completely intellectually obtuse…I’m not going to argue with the misunderstandings of the Church’s teachings, because most of you have absolutely no desire to learn for yourself: you’ve made your assumptions about the Chuch (most likely due to being raised by Protestants, and therefore have an unfavorable view of the Church- believe me, I know, I grew up in the South). It’s a shame that these threads only serve for bigots like PRCalDude and Enrique to attack the Church. They are entitled to their opinions, of course, but to snark with little toolish soundbites about how the Church is an “atheist assembly line” is just ridiculous…Yes, you guys are absolutely right, the majority of Catholics becomes atheists! You people are total tools. I’m not even sure why I read the comment board, most of the times it’s just pitiful.
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 1:10 PM
Just a quick note about the fish. I like fish, but this is just a form of fasting that, at the time when fish was not as tasty as it is now, was somewhat penitential. Prayer and fasting is all over the scriptures: Luke 2:37, Mark 2:18, Matthew 4:2, Acts 13:2, Acts 14:23, etc.
Today the Lenten fish fast is something of a remnant but is still a nice way to share in fasting. I really like steak and when they run specials on steak on Fridays of Lent it is just one more suffering to unite myself with the suffering of Christ. If it was good enough for the apostles it is good enough for me. Catholics should still be doing some kind of fasting on Fridays.
DrM2B on July 13, 2007 at 1:10 PM
It appears that the author didn’t even read the numerous Old Testament passages Jesus referenced when he made certain statements. For example, the prediction that Jesus would rise again on the third day was in reference to the ’sign of Jonah.’ Jonah’s 3 days in the belly of the whale was typological of Jesus’ 3 days in the grave before he rose again. Much of Old Testament prophecy fulfillment is like this. The author doesn’t understand the figurative language the Bible uses that communicates theological truth.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:13 PM
What is it with that?!? I had a nun try and force me to write with my right hand when I was a little kid in elementary. I didn’t get whacked with rulers as it was no longer acceptable, but it took my very pissed off mother to make her stop.
—-
Anyway, I think that it the casual attitude of Catholics (myself included, but I move back and forth into my religiousity) has a lot to do with a sense of lostness. The liberalization of the church has made it squishy, and I think that a lot of people no longer feel a sense of connection, so they either move to more evangelical churches where there is an enthusiasm for faith and a stronger sense of belonging or become more secularised or not as active (like me), or in Allah and Enrique’s case, full on atheist/agnostic.
I can throw you an anecdote, though it might be different in your area. You can always tell which churches in the area are catholic and which aren’t. When Mass is over, people pile the f*ck out as fast as possible and go straight home. Protestant churches, there’s always people chatting and mingling at the exits, sometimes for a long while.
I would also say a lot of Catholic culture has been gutted by the government. We’ve moved in a direction where catholic students no longer go to their own schools, and in many cases can’t afford to, which is why you see Catholic schools collapsing, particularly in the Northeast. Scranton area is closing them left and right.
Most public schools force you to pay taxes for public schools, even if your kid doesn’t go to public school. So essentially, parents are forced to pay two tuitions, the public schools just pocket that money and use it to buffer their own weak inefficient performance, and the parents have to scrape for every bit of change or hope the school has a good trust or aid program, or have money. Its not all rich kids, most catholic schools are decrepit, falling apart and desperate for money.
There’s also loss of the ethnic ties, as has been mentioned.
Its a complex issue, but maybe that’ll help.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 1:14 PM
If you want, I could get ColtsFan in here to debate the irrationality of sola ecclesia vs. sola scriptura as an epistemilogical basis. ‘Tradition’ was what we were discussing last time, I believe.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:17 PM
I bid you all “adieu” with this excerpt from Walker Percy’s “Why are you a Catholic?”:
“When the subject of religion does arise, at least in the South, the occasion is often an uncivil one, a challenge or a provocation, or even an insult. It happens once in a while, for example, that one finds oneself in a group of educated persons, one of whom, an educated person of a certain sort, may venture some such offhand remark as
Of course, the Roman Catholic Church is not only a foreign power but a fascist power.
Or, when in a group of less educated persons, perhaps in a small-town barbershop, one of whom, let us say an ex-member of the Ku Klux Klan–who are not bad fellows actually, at least here-abouts, except when it comes to blacks, Jews, and Catholics–when one of them comes out with something like
The Catholic Church is a piece of shit
then one feels entitled to a polite rebuttal in both cases, in the one with something like ‘Well, hold on, let us examine the terms, power, foreign, fascist–’ and so one, and in the case of the other, responding in the same tone of casual barbershop bonhomie with, say, ‘Truthfully, Lester, you’re something of a shit yourself, even for white trash–’ without in either case disrupting, necessarily, the general amiability.”
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 1:17 PM
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 1:10 PM
PRCalDude, obtuse…With those two words you just said more about yourself than your paragraph did about those you were attacking.
doriangrey on July 13, 2007 at 1:18 PM
I’m with you Bigdog.
I still think AP’s got that spiritual jealousy thing going. he WANTS to be a Christian, he’s just looking to be convinced.
(Just saying that because I know it drives AP bonkers! Hee hee hee! *runs away*)
In all seriousness, I’m an Evangelical Baptist. My wife is Roman Catholic. Neither of us have been to either church with any sort of regularity since shortly after our two children were born. Having two Autistic kids makes it near impossible to get them ready in time, and frankly, by Sunday morning we just need the sleep.
What is interesting is that I have heard my wife question her faith several times, specifically because she hasn’t been to church in so long. For me it’s never been in doubt, as I know my faith isn’t tied to a building or a specific set of pre-defined behaviours (beyond those laid out in scripture, of course.) Her faith is much more about ritual and tradition. Mine is about my relationship with God.
There is the reason for the results of this poll. So much of Catholicism is wrapped up in “religious” trappings and ceremony that after a while people become bored with it. While I will admit that there is a certain attractiveness in the pomp and circumstance of Catholic mass, it can quickly become stale for many people. At a certain point, it becomes “just another thing you have to do”, and gets weighed against all the other of life’s responsibilities. At that point many catholics decide that there simply isn’t a good enough reason to continue going through the motions, and they walk away from it all.
wearyman on July 13, 2007 at 1:21 PM
“I have learned that the opposite of hate and fear is not love, it is indifference and when one reaches a state of indifference, then other things can be conceived and achieved.”
uh sorry, this sounds pretty lame to me , like some kind of “five and dime philosophy” as my Dad used to say… I guess you’re implying some sort of meditative/Buddhist stance, but re: “indifference,” to quote The P. Bride’s Inigo Montoya “I don’t think that word means what you think it means…”
no offense..
max1 on July 13, 2007 at 1:22 PM
Actually, obtuse is fairly acurate in it precise definition. Much of what has been discussed in the several religion-oriented posts bring up the same arguments and teh same misunderstandings. Many, including PRCalDude, have claimed things to be dogmas of the Catholic that are not. I and many others have told them that this is in fact not the case. These things keep coming back. Obtuse, while subjectively negative in conotation, is objectively correct.
TThe same can be said of many other posts and other topics and other people by the way.
DrM2B on July 13, 2007 at 1:24 PM
So the bible is figurative? Jonah is figurative? The problem with that is you will have 50 Christian scholars saying it is and 50 Christian scholars saying it isn’t. Who to believe who to believe? Unfortunate God wrote/inspired a book that requires itself to be interpreted by the minds of men and then those men can’t agree. How are we to know which interpretation is correct?
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 1:25 PM
Enrique has seen enough of these threads to know that this crap about “Mary worship” is a complete and total LIE. He’s bearing false witness against his Catholic neighbors.
As for the subject of this thread:
Catholics were 36% less likely to have an “active faith,” which Barna defined as reading the Bible, praying and attending a church service during the prior week. However, Catholics were 16% more likely than the norm to attend a church service and 8% more likely to have prayed to God during the prior week.It seems to me those statistics directly contradict each other. Catholics are 16% more likely to attend a church service, and 8% more likely to pray. Yet the author claims that Catholics are 36% less likely to be “active”, which means attending church services and praying. how can Catholics be praying more and less at the exact same time?
One thing about this sort of discussion is that the Catholic church cannot avoid these attacks because it is so large. But you never hear about ex-podunk Baptist evangelical church members, because those Churches just die out and nobody cares about them. The media loves to spin the meme of ex-Catholics. In fact, people have been predicting the demise of the Catholic Church for over 500 years now. BUT THIS TIME they hope to be right!!! Yeah, sure.
I can only interpret this as saying that Catholics are not Christians.
Sydney Carton on July 13, 2007 at 1:26 PM
What’s with all the Catholic bashing?
You say Catholics do not read the Bible? Maybe not individually as much as other Christians, however, if you attend Mass regularly every Sunday you receive 3 scripture readings and sing a portion of 1 Psalm. That’s more Bible than I ever received at a Methodist service growing up.
Worship Mary? You have got to be kidding, right? The Hail Mary prayer is taken from the Bible itself. Wiki
The poll itself and many of the comments about it are simple garbage.
RedKnight on July 13, 2007 at 1:26 PM
There is a major difference in the way Catholics worship and the way Protestants worship. The emphasis in a Catholic mass is on reverence, tradition, and quiet reflection on scriptures. Protestant services – at least in my experience – are a lot more like classes. The pastor gets up and lectures on Scripture and teaches the congregation how to apply it to their daily lives. Many Protestants are explicitly directed to evangelize, read the Bible, and avoid certain behaviors. Protestant pastors are more likely to assert that sinful behavior or deviant beliefs will send someone to hell. (As a result, I think many Protestants are perceived by non-Christians as brainwashed.)
On the other hand, Catholics do not receive these kinds of explicit directions from their pastors. The mass was never intended to be a faith seminar. As a Catholic, one is expected to have some degree of personal responsibility for reading the Bible, knowing Church doctrine, praying, and leading a life that reflects love of Jesus. Certainly, many American Catholics display a lack of discipline when it comes to reading the Scripture and knowing the doctrine. This is sad, but I think it’s largely a reflection on American culture in general. How many Americans are truly dedicated to performing their own independent research before determining their beliefs?
So, on one hand you have Protestants, who are described as “devout” because they follow their Pastor’s directions. On the other hand, you have Catholics, who are described as “less devout” because they don’t receive such explicit directions, and so therefore come to their own interpretations of how to live their faith. Both situations are less than ideal.
redaerobaby on July 13, 2007 at 1:27 PM
frreal,
Excellent point and one that has plagued Chritianity for the past 500 years or so. The Catholic answer to this is the teaching authority of the magisterium (latin for teaching ones) inspired by the Holy Spirit by folks ordained to this vocation. The Protestant answer, I believe and may be mistaken (please correct), is individual insipration by the Holy Spirit.
DrM2B on July 13, 2007 at 1:29 PM
I was raised Catholic, attended church every Sunday, “Religious Education” classes after church every Sunday, and did the whole First Communion and Confirmation thing. I served as an Alter Boy for years (Without incident, in case some of the smart-asses out there are thinking about making rude jokes at my expense…).
However, I stopped attending church services regularly after I started to attend college. My views about The Church, God, Religion, and Faith all changed over time. I still believe in God, I still believe there is a Heaven & Hell, and I still consider myself a Catholic.
However, I also believe in Evolution over “Intelligent Design”. I believe in not lying, in treating others as you would like to be treated. These are simply common sense things to do in my mind. I don’t believe the bible is the exact word of God because it was written down by Man. I think God is the same across the board and the various religions are comparable to using different “long distance” companies to “call him”. I don’t think God has anything to do with good or bad things happening (therefore God’s Blessing or God’s Vengeance is a silly concept in my mind) but rather we have within us the capacity to make good and bad decisions, but that we hopefully have learned enough to make appropriate choices when the time comes.
I also believe that arguing whether Catholics are more or less “Christian” than others is like getting into a pissing match over who’s a better NASCAR Fan based on which driver you root for. WHO FRIGGIN’ CARES!? How you live your life and treat others matters more to me than how many times you go to church, open a Bible or brag about how you have a “Personal Relationship” with Christ. Don’t believe in God or prescribe to a specific faith? That’s cool by me, I won’t try and sway you mind by shoving my beliefs down your throat. Does that make me less Catholic or you more Christian? I don’t think so. But then, that’s my opinion. Just as your opinion is your own.
DakRoland on July 13, 2007 at 1:30 PM
Anecdotal, but the same thing happened to my father, in pre-WWII Netherlands, not a bastion of Roman Catholicism. I’m pretty sure the “left-handed=bad” attitude is based on the Latin word for left, which is sinister. Also the whole sheep on the right hand and goats on the left.
Vanquisher on July 13, 2007 at 1:30 PM
There’s ‘Christian’ and there’s Christian. Jonah was an actual person who was actually in the belly of a fish for three days. He was also a typological figure, as Israel was an actual nation that had a typological function. When I say ‘figurative’ I mean that language is used figuratively at times to communicate theological truth. When Jesus says “I am the bread of life come down from heaven” he doesn’t actually mean he was composed of bread. He’s referencing the time Israel was fed in the wilderness with manna in order to survive. He’s saying that to live spiritually, you must believe in him.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:36 PM
I have been to Internet Infidels website often in the past. They have some very interesting articles, and some not-so interesting articles at times.
What is central to the Resurrection is this:
the founder (Jesus Christ) of a worldview (Christianity) makes the startling empirical claim that truth can be tested, not by appealing to subjective or emotional, “pie in the sky” nonsense, but rather by appealing to rational evidence that can be tested empirically in our actual world through eyewitnesses.
While the conceptual “Argument for Truth” stemming from atheism’s inability to both metaphysically and epistemologically account for the immaterial laws of logic point to a Theistic world, there is still a need for some empirical grounding.
Every worldview requires both a rational (read: conceptual or abstract) component and an empirical component.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ supplies the empirical component in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
There were eyewitnesses that testified to the empirical evidence in favor of the Resurrection. These eyewitnesses, many who later went to their deaths, stated that they were not following “cleverly invented stories” or myths, as noted in 2 Peter 1:16.
There are some philosophers who believe that there are strong, independent evidence
for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
ColtsFan on July 13, 2007 at 1:37 PM
DakRoland:
However? Those beliefs are not incompatible with being Catholic.
The Catholic Church does not believe that every word in the bible must be taken literally. It understand that the divine interpretations were done through men. It recognizes, based on its authority through the Magesterium, that Tradition plays an important part in the faith and that the apostles were commanded to PREACH the faith before anything was actually written down.
If by this you mean that other religions have grasped SOME of the truths of God, you are correct. For instance, Islam is correct to the extent it recognizes that there is ONE God out there, and not a bunch of gods. But it is flawed in many serious ways. Only the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the Truth.
If by this you mean we’re commanded to bear our own Crosses, that’s correct. Christianity is not a “prosperity gospel” (aka: follow our religion and you’ll be rewarded in life). There is no guarantee that people will have any material reward by being faithful (note: many protestant megachurches explicitly teach that), especially since most of the Apostles themselves were murdered.
Sydney Carton on July 13, 2007 at 1:38 PM
Papists? I prefer the term Christian. I read the Bible and am Catholic. I have never been encouraged ‘not to read it’. No Mary worship…but I will never convince those who think so. I have never been taught my eyes will burn if I look upon a Protestant Church. I know that as a ‘Catholic’ I have been told by non-Catholic’s ‘I am not saved’, I worship other’s (Mary, angels, Saints etc.) than the true and only God, and basically have had my religion bashed. So if I don’t condemn another’s Christian religion I don’t talk about Christianity to others then I don’t profess the Christian faith? I would have to say right I am not going to bash another Christian because of the Church he goes to. But I will talk about God and how merciful He is. The Mass isn’t only about ‘tradition’. Cross worship? A new one.
As a Catholic I have found a lot of Catholic’s don’t actually understand their religion. So they pick and choice…cafeteria Catholics? As far as Sunday school….it’s called CCD and it isn’t on Sunday. But one would should at least understand the Catholic religion before forming an opinion.
May God Bless all Christians.
suz
Suz on July 13, 2007 at 1:39 PM
Of course then we have that whole issue with translations and copying and dare I say extra words magically appearing. Why does God allow his words to be manipulated?
Johannine Comma
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 1:40 PM
The Protestant answer is that the Holy Spirit guides the universal church in the understanding of the Bible. This includes individual readers.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Since neither you nor WillBarrett corrected my understanding of the Roman doctrines of sola ecclesia and Papal infallibility, I just proceeded on what I knew. Last time WillBarrett and I were discussing things, we were talking about the authority of church tradition vs. the authority of Scripture.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:43 PM
For all the Catholics posting about how non-Catholics don’t have a clue about your brand of Christianity, I have a question-
Where is the evangelism within your ranks? I don’t mean evangilism in that holy roller Southern Baptist sense of the word but, rather, evanglism as defined by Websters-
“the winning or revival of personal commitments to Christ.”
It strikes me that I have never encountered a Catholic who epitomizes this definition. I’ve known many faithful Catholics who dilligently observed all the rituals and rites of the faith but not a single one who talks about their personal commitment to Christ. Why is that?
As to the poll, I think it is cultural branding that leads to these results. Nobody is a “lapsed Prebyterian.” Yet, it is ingrained with Catholics that they are Catholic, no matter what. For this reason they respond that they are Catholic- even if they haven’t darkened a church in decades and don’t agree with the Catholic doctrine.
highhopes on July 13, 2007 at 1:45 PM
You can buy a critical greek New Testament and study it yourself. All the different manuscripts are included in it. There are textual variants amongst, but they don’t obscure the meaning of the texts or their doctrines.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:45 PM
Does it also include that dude at the entrance to the Eighth Ave Express who was always yelling about the end of the world?
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 1:46 PM
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:43 PM
In defense of “sola ecclesia”…knock yourself out DUDE
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a29.htm
It’s amazing what a quick google search will find…
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 1:50 PM
Yeah, except that a lot of Catholic Churches have gotten rid of a lot of the pomp and pageantry, in every sense of it. I’d honestly probably go more if it would go back to that. The music, the art and architecture sucks too now.
They no longer build beautiful churches, they look like any other crappy prefab buildings with a few crucifixes in it or a modern architectural piece, the music is generally dull, unspiring hippie crap, I’d rather hear the old stuff than the drippy garbage they do now. The art is all minimalist now, probably so it doesn’t look like they’re spending money that could be better used elsewhere, screw that, that art is damned inspiring, and everyone knows it.
Vanquisher, that may be true, but I’m in my twenties, you’d think they’d quit that crap when I was a kid.
Bad Candy on July 13, 2007 at 1:50 PM
I could just as easily respond with snark about the authority of the Roman Church: does Vatican II’s statement that Allah and Yahweh are one in the same fully comprehend the Qur’an’s assertion that Jesus was only a man, and not God come in the flesh?
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:51 PM
HighHopes
Our (Catholics that is) personal commitment to Christ is expressed in our dilligent observance of the Sacraments, rituals and rites of the Church.
The fact that we don’t express/display our devotion to Christ in a “Protestant” manner does not make that commitment any less present. In the same way that I don’t find Protestants’ commitment to Christ non-existent because you reject transubstantiation of the Eucharist and thus do not have physical Communion with Christ.
Newman65 on July 13, 2007 at 1:58 PM
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 1:36 PM
Also, about that Jonah story… I assume you are referring to Matthew 12:38-40? … An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for as Jonah
was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Sonof man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Well that’s all well and good except for the fact that Jesus wasn’t actually buried for 3 and 3 but at best 2 nights. Also, perhaps more importantly your assertion that it is a fullfillment of a figurative prophecy is false as it in truth is a simile or a comparison and not a prophecy since a prophecy to be fulfilled necessarily requires that it be implicity stated as a prophecy. The author of Jonah unfortunately failed to do that. Just leaving it open for cherry picked interpretations.
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 1:58 PM
Why, talk about the nail in the coffin proving virtually every claim I make about Catholics. Catholics are more about ritual and are general Catholic not by person choice, but because it was passed down from the previous generation… is that really why you should believe in God? That’s why their faith is weak, because they haven’t had to seek God out and decide for themselves. They just went through the motions because that’s how Catholics roll. The fact that they attend The Church more often, yet read the Bible and talk about their faith WAY less is not surprising at all. Again, because they go to church to go through the motions, because that’s how they were raised, not because they truly believe anything… if it weren’t such a serious issue, it would be hilarious that they prove we’re right, they don’t read the Bible. Again, it’s about following what The Church has decided is the way things are to be done, not about personal choice and relationship with Christ.
Other Christians take their belief with them wherever they go, and don’t think a guy with a goofy robe has the power to keep Jesus trapped in a building with the magical powers of stained glass windows. I like to refer to Catholicism as the insurance policy of religions. There isn’t real belief there, but “just in case” there’s an afterlife, they want to be sure they go to the right place… and it would be too much work to figure out the truth for themselves and make a choice, so they’ll just do what their parents do.
I suppose my post might be considered “denigrating” “The Church” (again… it’s not “The Church”, anyone who’s a real Christian should be concerned about upsetting, it’s Jesus/God… I know you are an atheist AP, but I just find that language of “the Church” one of the biggest problems Catholics have holding them back). At any rate, denigrating or not, what I’m saying is pretty obvious and just expanding on the poll results. At any rate, here’s my “there are exceptions to the rule, not all Catholics are this way” disclaimer, but I’d say the majority of those who call themselves Catholics certainly are. And that’s the way “the Church” (remember, that’s not “God”, it’s an organization) likes it.
RightWinged on July 13, 2007 at 1:58 PM
Apparently the author of this never interacted with Calvin. Since there’s no need to rehash he treatment of the same texts, here (start with book IV, chapter 6):
http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:00 PM
So as long as they don’t obscure your meaning of the text you are little concerned with men making changes to the inspired word?
frreal on July 13, 2007 at 2:04 PM
It’s not a figurative prophecy. The story of Jonah was typological. It’s not left open to cherry-picked interpretations at all, if you’ve read the Old Testament. God intervened immediately after the fall in Genesis 3, promised a Redeemer, and the various covenants he made with man afterward were the organic development of the protoeuangelion in Genesis 3:15. They’re only cherry-picked if you refuse to address the Old Testament language Jesus is using when he states various things. The Jews of his day knew exactly what he was claiming, which is why the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the Law conspired to have him killed.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:07 PM
I could just as easily respond with snark about the authority of the Roman Church: does Vatican II’s statement that Allah and Yahweh are one in the same fully comprehend the Qur’an’s assertion that Jesus was only a man, and not God come in the flesh?
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 2:08 PM
We claim that only the original autographs were inspired, but that these have been preserved in such a way as to not leave any doubt as to what the originals stated or meant.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:09 PM
Your link doesn’t work…
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 2:12 PM
Words have meanings. If the Qur’an states that anyone who assigns a son to Allah is guilty of shirk(a sin Allah will never forgive), you can’t make the case that Allah and Yahweh are the same as the Bible defines him, unless the Bible’s words have no authority compared to those of the Roman See. In that case, why read the Bible at all? Why not just read the Qur’an, since as John Paul stated after he kissed it, “This is God’s holy word”, and go on a jihad? The virgins await.
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:13 PM
Now it does…I KNEW you were a Calvinist!!! That explains EVERYTHING.
WillBarrett on July 13, 2007 at 2:14 PM
I just clicked it and it did. Anyone else try?
PRCalDude on July 13, 2007 at 2:14 PM
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