Video: Three arrested after disrupting Hindu prayer in Senate; Update: Reid audio added
posted at 2:31 pm on July 12, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Classy: “Lord Jesus, forgive us, father, for allowing the prayer of the wicked, which is an abomination in your sight.” There’s no report of them being linked to any organization but the AFA encouraged its members earlier this week to e-mail Congress and express their disappointment. Money quote:
Barton says given the fact that Hindus are a tiny constituency of the American public, he questions the motivation of Senate leaders. “This is not a religion that has produced great things in the world,” he observes.
According to ABC, Harry Reid took the floor after the disruption and paid tribute to the tiny statue of Gandhi that he keeps in his office and the Indian food he used to enjoy as a college student. I can’t find the footage but I e-mailed the guys at Beyond The News to see if they’ve got it. I’m cautiously optimistic that it might provide as much pure potent schmaltz as the now infamous “Tommy” speech before the shamnesty vote. Click the image to watch.
Update: It’s not as funny as the “Tommy” clip because his cause here is just, but it’s still Reid and it’s still absurdly schmaltzy. Deep thanks to the BTN team for making it happen.
Meditate upon this as you listen.
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The audio isn’t showing up for me, but man does the poster make up for it. Where can I get one?
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 4:32 PM
YES! I just got called a liberal on Hot Air.
My friend, I am not a liberal. I just think that we Christians shouldn’t expect a privileged place when it comes to prayers in the Senate.
As for your suggestion that we throw out the Constitution – please tell me where in the Constitution does it mark our the right to Christian prayers, and only Christian prayers, before the Senate. This is ridiculous.
What I am saying is just what Esthier said – Either we respect all faiths when it comes to government representation – or we respect none. After all, the people who the Senators represent are not all Christian, or all Muslim, or all Hindu. Hindus themselves may not have been involved in the founding of this country – but they currently live in this country, and are represented by those elected.
Conversely, if my minister asked a Hindu, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or whatever, to my church to offer a prayer – I would be offended, and I would question the appropriateness of the act.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 4:34 PM
Esthier,
Please see the Library of Congress: Religion and the Founding of America.
From IV. Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89:
INC on July 12, 2007 at 4:34 PM
Enough of this pluralistic crap.
congsan on July 12, 2007 at 4:37 PM
If I have to hear about Thomas Jefferson and his letter quoted out of context one more time I am going to scream.
Jefferson was assuring the religious community that the government would not establish a religion – hence his LETTER. He wrote his letter because a certain “religion” was trying to establish itself as the only religion to be recognized. Jefferson had foresight unlike people today who see his letter as proof of his desire to separate religion and government. It is just easier to believe the rhetoric than study the facts.
On-my-soap-box on July 12, 2007 at 4:44 PM
Reid is an idiot – who displays a lack of knowledge of both Christianity and Hinduism. Just the very fact that he described the man as offering a prayer to “Our Heavenly Father,” shows that he does not understand orthodox Christianity, which would not characterize the prayer as directed to the Christian God – and that he does not understand Hinduism, where even the dude praying addressed the prayer to “the transcendental glory of the deity supreme,” and went on to describe an pantheistic deity. Reid’s conflation of the two faiths betrays his ignorance.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 4:44 PM
disgusting. i hope they beat the hell out of those protesters.
jummy on July 12, 2007 at 4:48 PM
Your assumptions about my post are absurd. It contains sarcasm. I did not call you a liberal, or suggest throwing out the Constitution, and I did not even imply the Constitution even addresses the subject of prayer in the Senate. Try reading it again.
Respecting all faiths to me means respecting people of all faiths in how we as individuals and as a society treat all with equality. It does NOT mean praying to the gods of all faiths on the Senate floor.
infidel4life on July 12, 2007 at 4:48 PM
Yeah, I get that and believe completely that this country was founded on Christian principles.
However, that doesn’t make it the law for today.
We’re not a Christian theocracy, and considering that moral state that our nation is in, I’d say it’s a good thing that we don’t add insult to our indecency by trying to claim that we are one.
Besides, a sincere argument could be made that by only allowing Christian prayers, our government breaks its own Establishment Clause. I think it was bogus when they tried to apply the clause to a “moment of silence” before high school football games which would have given everyone a chance to pray to their own god, God, gods, or not at all, but that’s a side note.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 4:50 PM
See also U.S. Supreme Court RECTOR, ETC, OF HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. U S, 143 U.S. 457 (1892) for a long recitation of historic documents that reference the Christian heritage of our country and includes this statement:
For a little more recent statement see Judge Janice Rogers Brown:
INC on July 12, 2007 at 4:50 PM
Oh, that’s brilliant. Thank you for gracing us with your boundless intelligence.
infidel4life on July 12, 2007 at 4:51 PM
I’ll have the Christians and the Hindus living next to me, but I draw the line at having any toast-eating bastards in my neighborhood!
ScottMcC on July 12, 2007 at 4:52 PM
You don’t think that’s just a tad bit extreme?
And we’re not respecting all people of faiths when he ban specific faiths from doing something other people of other faiths are allowed to do.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Get used to this sort of crap. It will only increase. Multi-religious nations, especially with such diverse religions, have a way of shouting at each other. Remember in the UK when the angry Sikhs shut down a theater for putting on a play that contained a murder in a Sikh temple? That’s the future of a hyper-multi-religious society.
Look, everyone religion known to humankind is represented by followers here in the US. We’ll be lucky if all we get are shouts and disruptions. In India there are more or less regular riots that kill scores or hundreds. Remember the Gujarat riot that killed 1000 in 2002? A vast Hindu mob wielding tool destroyed a mosque built on top of the ruins of an ancient temple in the 1990’s. (A reminder that all Hindus aren’t believers in non-violence.)
We’re used to religious diversity meaning a bunch of flavors of Protestantism plus some Jews. But thanks to our brilliant immigration policies we now have every sect and variation. As long as everyone is quasi-secular and treats religion like decoration then we can more or less get along. But if people take their religion seriously then this is what you get. This will get worse over time.
I think it is very difficult for society to reconcile the competing demands of ‘true believers’ of such drastically divergent faiths as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and a staggering array of sects, cults, and invented religions like Wicca and Scientology.
This prayer in the Congress thing is just symbolic. Some of the most difficult issues will manifest themselves in public schools over the coming years: restrictions on food, dress, holidays, festivals, sentitivities to insults, the teaching of history, sports, dating, literature. Ugly stuff, indeed.
Thomas the Wraith on July 12, 2007 at 4:55 PM
Naw, not as long as we are talking about Christians.
/sacr off
On-my-soap-box on July 12, 2007 at 4:55 PM
Excuse me. How could I have made that mistake?
You are assuming I want to throw out the constitution, and the practices that the founders began. I never said that. I may have phrased my response in a confusing way. What I should have said, possibly, was: You are suggesting I want th throw out the constitution, as if it guarantees us Christians the right to prayers before Congress…”
How is it respecting people of all faiths to deny those people’s faiths equal representation in the very governmental system that represents them. Why should we, as Christians, who, whether you like it or not, live in a pluralistic and largely secular society, feel as if we should be the only one’s offering prayers on the Senate floor? How is that respecting people of all faiths?
Look, I’m trying to be respectful here. Not trying to be a prick. I just honestly can’t understand the logic of this argument.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 4:58 PM
what was it Gandhi said??
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”- Mahatma Gandhi
Well duh! Chris was and is God! A pretty high standard for us to meet! Gandhi wasn’t and isn’t and “liking Christ” won’t do one much good without faith in his meritorious work on one’s behalf. “No one comes to the Father except through me” Jesus Christ…
sabbott on July 12, 2007 at 4:59 PM
Far as I’m concerned they did nothing wrong. They were expressing their opinions on the idea of a Hindu opening prayer in the Senate. I must say, for a right wing site that normally expresses a freedom of speech angle, I’m seeing a lot of posts attacking these people for making use of that freedom. As far as referring to them as bigots goes. Is that some kind of joke? Disagreement does not make someone a bigot. Now, if they’d said something like, “GET THAT EFFING BROWNIE OFF THE STAGE!” or something retarded like that… I could agree. But… apologizing to God for our country allowing a man to pray to a false god at the daily opening of our highest legislative body? Sorry… don’t see what you see at all.
From what I’ve read here, even most of the professing Christians that read this site seem to have an odd view of what Christianity is, and what we as Christians stand for.
Also, we were not originally a secular nation, but a Christian one, and anyone here that has read anything in depth about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, or John Quincy Adams would know that. There is freedom of religion in this country, and the Hindu priest has the same rights as the rest of us, including the right to pray at the opening of the Senate. But, just because someone has the right doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good thing. Personally, it reminds me a tad bit of when that Imam opened the DNC’s prayer last year.
Oh, and Hinduism is not a religion of peace. Seriously, I think people just say that kind of stuff out of ignorance. I could tell you stories of the things that Hindu’s in India have done to Christians and Muslims there. But, instead, I think you should do some reading and find out for yourselves. That way you can say you are self-educated.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:00 PM
Wow! What a surprising mix of reactions in the posts. Might as well get my 2 cents in.
First of all this country most certainly was founded on Christian principles. One need only read the quotes and letters from the founding fathers and other early leaders of our country. Here’s a couple:
“It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors.”
— President George Washington, Thanksgiving proclamation, 1789
“You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ.”
— President George Washington, May 12, 1779
“No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States.”
–President George Washington, First Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
— U.S. Chief Justice John Jay
We the people, endowed by our CREATOR……
I could go on and on and on and……
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 5:01 PM
How ’bout if they print up a calendar indicating which representative of what religion will be offering the prayer each day, and the ones who want to hear it can arrive on time?
NellE on July 12, 2007 at 5:04 PM
in all seriousness, I didn’t read single comment where a Christian was writing the comment, and they got the point. they missed it completely… come on guys, you’re thinking about it from the wrong context. They were not denying the guy the right to speak by speaking themselves. They were expressing their distress that this country has come to such a point where God is no longer being honored in our legislative bodies. (granted, it’s been like this for awhile, but I think more Christians are finally noticing)
check out http://www.ihop.org
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:04 PM
j_ehman – If it was their right to do this, protected under the constitution, why were they arrested? Come on man, there is something called appropriateness. And this was not it.
infidel4life – Can we at least agree that the action taken by these “protesters” was inappropriate, or would you say that they were right in what they did?
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:05 PM
Our Father in Heaven, save us from the conceit which refuses to believe that God knows more about government than we do, and deliver us from the stubbornness that will not seek God’s help. Today we claim Thy promise: ‘If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and it shall be given to him.’ Thou knowest, Lord, how much we need it. Make us willing to ask for it and eager to have it. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.
– Senate Chaplain Peter Marshall, on the floor of the Senate, March 18, 1948
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 5:07 PM
honestly, I don’t understand why they were arrested. I’ve never been to the Senate (I live in Texas of all places). So I don’t know the extra rules. Seems to me that most places, including the Senate would allow someone to speak once, and after being hushed, if they repeated the “offense” then arrest them. Dunno.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:08 PM
Being founded on a certain principle and making that principle the law so to speak, are two different things. We do not discourage or encourage any religion in this country. It’s in our Establishment Clause.
And no amount of quotes from the founders is going to change that.
If you truly support freedom of speech, then you should be against those who try to take that freedom away from other people. Shouting down a prayer is an attempt to do just that.
They were trying to keep the man from speaking. That’s as anti-free speech as you can get as a private citizen.
Besides, even the Phelps clan is using its free speech. That doesn’t mean that people here aren’t going to say horrible things about the Phelps clan. Protesting at a soldiers funeral–protesting at ANYONE’S funeral is completely sick and in my mind should not be allowed even with the First Amendment.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:09 PM
JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY.
Now – do we need to ban people from practicing other religions? No. But we do need to call them on it and confront them publicly. In the end Christ will win, because every other religion leads to tyranny, darkness, and despair.
I’m gonna say something here that’s going to make several people’s heads go explodey – but it needs saying, and there are too many cowards in this country who are unable to acknowledge this fact.
It is no accident that the Christian world is the free world. THE FREE WORLD IS FREE BECAUSE IT IS CHRISTIAN.
No other religion places as much value or worth on that of the individual human being. It is because we place so much importance on each and every human life that we have established the freedoms and the rights we all have in this country. It is because of these freedoms and rights that we are as successful and as powerful as we are.
It all comes full circle. Jesus is the only way – period.
thareb on July 12, 2007 at 5:11 PM
Can’t say I disagree about the Phelps clan so much….that is with regards to what they do. I wouldn’t say they were trying to shout him down (just my opinion), because they knew they would be removed, I just thought they were expressing their remorse, and understandably so. I think their remorse had a better chance of being recognized at that point, than putting it up on some blog that no one reads.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:12 PM
Except for a couple things:
1. They were shouting over him, not allowing him to be heard. had they simply wanted to protest this, they could have held up signs.
2. God hasn’t been honored in our legislative bodies since the founders made it to their graves if He was even honored before then.
This is not a theocracy. I can’t believe I’m even making this argument, but really, the way those people chose to react was disgraceful.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:13 PM
Ditto &
Ditto.
Spirit of 1776 on July 12, 2007 at 5:16 PM
Holding up signs works well under any circumstance. It’s very likely that they would have gotten their pictures taken.
I might agree with you that they weren’t trying to shout him down except that they started shouting the second that man started speaking. So it’s either an eerie coincidence or an intentional act done to keep his prayer from being heard.
Honestly, in watching it, it really felt like they were trying to keep his prayer from occurring at all, as though the world might end if our government listened to a Hindu prayer.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:16 PM
sorry Esthier, on the facts I don’t disagree (not a theocracy, and the like), but I don’t see what they did as disgraceful. Have you ever heard of righteous anger? Jesus in the Temple. Granted, this was far from being the temple, but I get the feeling that this is what they were thinking about.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:17 PM
Agreed, I don’t think funerals should be considered public events and should be legally restricted as the family sees fit.
Spirit of 1776 on July 12, 2007 at 5:18 PM
And honestly, I’m generally extremely sympathetic to Christians who want Christ to be more prevalent in America.
I was very upset when prayer before football games was taken out of my school and noticed a significant number of injuries on the field that year (it’s entirely possible that it only seemed like more, since I never got the actual stats).
I just can’t agree with these people here. Their shouts make it sound as though we live in a theocracy the way the Phelps people act.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:09 PM
“Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.”
– George Washington
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 5:21 PM
I do too, and that’s exactly my point. Jesus was right to be angry in His own house, but America’s government is not God’s house.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:21 PM
Stating that this country has an Establishment Clause makes me a “pretend patriot”?
Right.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:23 PM
Did you watch that video?
Jesus was in the temple. Jesus was protesting ungodly practices in a place that had no other use than worshiping God. The Senate is not that place. There is no correlation here. Again, if this happened in my church, I would take issue. In my Senate – not so much.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:23 PM
true, and I’m not saying I want it to be, because unlike Islam, Christianity isn’t a political system. It’s more the fact that the further this country has moved away from God the worse things have gotten, on all fronts.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:24 PM
that’s really just my standard response to people who disrupt events like this.
jummy on July 12, 2007 at 5:24 PM
Has the good Senate Chaplain Peter Marshall heard back from the big guy on that matter yet? If so I hope he didn’t tell us to vote Hillary. Ooooo. What if He did? Wouldn’t that be an interesting dillema?
Zetterson on July 12, 2007 at 5:25 PM
nailinmyeye
Do you have trouble with the idea of agreeing to disagree? Seriously. I pointed out that it was my opinion, and that means, guess what? I COULD BE WRONG! wow…. hard to catch on to I know (by the way, only being a punk because it’s how you’ve been being about your posts) So please, I disagree with you, you disagree with me. It’s all good. Life goes on.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:26 PM
That is a very good point.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Is it legal (or ethical) for him to have a statue made of ivory?
bambam on July 12, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Look back through history and try to find a society with such a fantastic variety of religions sharing a single geographical and political entity as here now in the US. We have embarked on a vast social experiment unknown in the history of humankind.
There are innumerable benefits to the stability of society if all or nearly all the populace is of the same religion. People believe in the same supernatural ideas, the same morality, the same traditions; people respect the same symbols, rituals, festivals, and modes of behavior; people conform to the same limits, expectations and taboos; people understand the same stories, history and metaphors. The more religiously diverse a society the more these commonalities erode. At some point they are lost. That ain’t good.
I respect Hinduism but as a Christian you can’t expect me to respect Wicca or Scientology or some invented mumbo-jumbo. Christianity is heir to 2000 years of literature, art, music, architecture, philosophy. It’s the worldview behind Western civilization. It is not the equal of Druids or crystal worshipping new age morons.
Reconciling the increasingly diverse American religious landscape will be a major issue, locally and nationally, for the rest of our lives.
Thomas the Wraith on July 12, 2007 at 5:28 PM
True, but that’s more cultural than governmental, and Christians don’t help that by appearing to be intolerant of what other people believe. It’s one thing to believe they’re wrong and other to shout like that on public property.
Got it.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:28 PM
meh…. I’d say the culture has quite an effect on the government. The more nutroots truthers appear the more people more likely to vote for someone like Obama… therefore it would cultural and governmental… such as you said, the ban on prayer at football games… that’s cultural and governmental right?
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:33 PM
Sure, but I guess what I mean by that is that the one influences the other, meaning the culture influences the government and that the best way to counter that is by trying to change the culture rather than worrying about the government.
That was the early disciples’ approach to it. They were so busy trying to make sure everyone knew of Christ that they didn’t have the time to worry about Rome; though, Paul’s citizenship kept him from being executed, so some diplomacy was helpful at that time.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:37 PM
Yes, let us agree to disagree. But, let me tell you why, in my opinion, this is important. Because it is professing Christians like these three arrested today, that cast a shadow on Christianity in general. And I have a hard time when my fellow Christians find ways to condone poor behavior.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:37 PM
Well, they weren’t arrested for their religious views, or their intolerance. They were arrested for “disruption of Congress”. Expressing opinions is one thing. Attempting to shout down a Branch of the Government isn’t really the way to do this. I have to say, if disrupting Congress is illegal, well they sure did commit that crime… didn’t they?
I’m very tolerant of Christians, right up until I’m told that “Jesus is the ONLY WAY” at which point I’m reminded of the Philosophical reasons why I stopped being Christian.
I’m happier with Hindu’s, Jews, and Pagans who seldom tell me that their religion is the only true one; and almost never tell me that eternal hellfire (which I don’t believe in) and eternal damnation are my goal for not letting them make my decisions for me.
But that’s ok thareb, I’m sure you’ll gain a lot of converts by telling people how stupid, ill advised, tyrannical, and cowardly their life is without following the path that you claim is the correct one.
Go to the ABC link…
Called repeatedly for order, and eventually ejected… they didn’t speak once there, they were completely out of hand.
gekkobear on July 12, 2007 at 5:37 PM
No offense – but that’s a cowardly interpretation of our savior. He wasn’t a coward, and neither should we be.
In fact – it’s in great part because of the intentionally feminized and passive interpretation of Jesus that has occurred (erroneously) in some Christian circles and (intentionally) in Athiest and Agnostic circles that has led to a decline in Christianity.
We are not called to be “Non-Violent Protestors”. We are not called to be “Pacifists”. Christianity is not buddhism. Christ died on the cross to save us – it doesn’t work the other way around.
We are called forth to proclaim our faith boldy. God bless the individuals who had the cojones to do that in the Senate today.
thareb on July 12, 2007 at 5:42 PM
My point is reflected in others posts as well. This country was based on Christian principles. That’s a fact. Americans are free to not believe in god but the intention was clear that our government would be Christ like in our nation’s business.
For some odd reason, we as a nation have gotten away from our basic principles. Since one misguided soul was allowed to kick god out of our classrooms, we have since had to replace HIM with metal detectors. The product of the school system since the outage of our benefactor has produced same sex marriage, Gay parades, murder on demand, gang violence, school shootings, etc. What’s amazing is that most school dicipline prior to the eviction of god was because of talking out of turn and chewing bubble gum in class.
I’m not offended that these righteous people raised their voices to remind our leaders of our foundation. What offends me is that so few were willing to stand with them and do the same.
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 5:43 PM
maybe I’ve not explained my position very well nailinmyeye. I understand why they’re upset. I wouldn’t have done what they did. (probably should have pointed that out before) I also can be pretty sure, that because that’s a government building, Jesus wouldn’t have done that either. You made a good point about that Esthier. They may have even been being rude by interrupting the Hindu priest as he tried to pray, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand why they felt as they did. Does that make more sense to you man? Cause, I just seem to be having trouble expressing myself today…. kind of tired.
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 5:45 PM
Yeah exactly! I thought the seperation of church and state is what we are all about. Or is it seperatrion of Christianity and state, but mergence of foriegn religion and state?
Bearhopi on July 12, 2007 at 5:45 PM
Sorry to hear that.
Though, if it’s true, what else are people to say? I mean, let’s say that this world is nothing but a dark cave with sun shining through and no clear way out. And let’s say someone claims to have a map and a flashlight that both show the only way out. Wouldn’t you want that person to let you know that the other ways people have come up with aren’t going to lead you out?
If Christians are wrong, so be it, but if what we say is true, then how are they doing something wrong by telling the truth?
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:45 PM
Perhaps you meant this:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Spirit of 1776 on July 12, 2007 at 5:49 PM
Christianity is not about being polite or inclusive or tolerant or happy or accepting or any other nice platitude you care to toss out. Christianity is about worshipping
Thomas the Wraith on July 12, 2007 at 5:49 PM
thareb – Don’t tell me no offense when clearly offense is intended. Come on, I’m not dumb.
How is my criticism of you and j_ehrman for defending these creeps poor behavior a “cowardly interpretation of our savior?” What are you talking about? Nevermind…
Thanks. This is exactly the kind of stuff I am talking about. You seriously believe this? The best way to proclaim our faith is to shout down and deprive a forum members of other faiths, in a secular, non-religious context? You can’t really think that…
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:50 PM
Devote Hindus will KILL a human being if suspected of killing a cow. Happens frequently in India. Hinduism also codified caste. Thanks to this, a quarter of the Indian population is DALIT – Untouchables. A population close to the entire United States population is condemned to abject poverty. Ghandi tried to challenge this (using Christian concepts that the intrinsic worth of each man is equal in God’s eyes.) Unless one travels TO India, one will only encounter the higher castes of Indian society who have the right/wealth/education to travel. Brahmins, merchant Gujarats, Sihks. The other castes are too poor, not educated enough or spiritually unclean to be able to move out of their usual circuits.
Hindus worship many gods and even amongst themselves Hindus exalt certain gods over others. There are plenty of Ghanesh worshippers, the god with a man’s body and an elephant’s head, there are Kali worshippers, and scores more to choose from. So, which god did this priest favor? He could just as easily insult a fellow Hindu as anyone else.
The problem is this: The Dems want to murky up and destroy an American cultural tradition. The Congress of the United States has a long and peaceful tradition of opening with a Christian prayer. Such traditions are nice and stabilizing. Normal people of other religions are not offended by this. Two hundred years of this, with atheists in Congress and they managed to survive the usual opening couple of minutes without any distress whatsoever. Hindus open their own assemblies with their own traditional prayers.
It’s the Left manipulation of American custom to put up a Hindu prayer, knowing full well that there will be Americans who believe that isn’t right. The comments on these thread already show the true purpose they wanted when they set the stage for a scene- DUMP the traditional prayer! Is it right to invite a guest who you anticipate will be put into an embarrassing situation? Americans are rightly expected to be respectful in India during solemn Indian prayers, out of courtesy, and no Indian would expect a Christian or one of any other faith to abandon what they believe are proper observances. Indians are more chill and tolerant than the Liberal Left on this.
The Dems are wrong. They preach tolerance and multiculti. There IS an American culture and the Dems – to be consistent with their own words – should respect that. What they are doing is maligning Christianity in favor of other religions, particularly secular Humanism.
naliaka on July 12, 2007 at 5:53 PM
You’re the same person, aren’t you?
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:53 PM
They didn’t proclaim God. All they did was proclaim their distaste for Hinduism. That’s really not the same thing.
I absolutely refuse the idea that shouting down another individual for what that person believes if NOT a Christian principle.
Thanks. And I think I understand you now.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:53 PM
You’re the same person, aren’t you?
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:53 PM
In principle, Yes. I am a Christian.
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 5:56 PM
Inside a government building?
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 5:57 PM
I think that is quite a leap to make. Perhaps other factors contributed to this introduction of metal detectors as well? Why would this metal detector only appear in particular school systems in high crime areas? Does the Vatican have metal detectors anywhere? Why? Have they removed God from that building as well?
Ok, who called Ron Paul a coward?? Let me at ‘em!
Zetterson on July 12, 2007 at 5:57 PM
I understand that better. I’m all for Christianity. But, I just think that these people would do better to direct their ire somewhere else. What is the point of shouting down a Hindu priest? In a secular place? All it dis wass deprive that person of his freedom of speech, and make the shouter, and his or her cause, look like an ass.
Get some rest man!
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 5:57 PM
It’s becoming a standard rite of passage around here.
baldilocks on July 12, 2007 at 5:59 PM
I think I will, but I have less than an hour to do it…. enjoy the continuing debate fellas
j_ehman on July 12, 2007 at 6:03 PM
Well, in case anyone wondered why there has been and most likely always will be war and violence in the name of religion, just go through this thread for a minute or two.
Why are people just not able to agree on anything simple?
KMC1 on July 12, 2007 at 6:04 PM
Such as?
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 6:04 PM
It comes from a music video by Carmen.
The ball got dropped in ‘62
They wouldn’t let children pray in school
Violent crime began to rise
The grades went down and the kids got high
It goes on to address “no absolutes” and “abortion in the land,” detailing how the nation has fallen morally, ending with a call to take back the nation for Christ.
Though, every time I’ve watched it, I’ve felt it was more of a cause against a corrupt culture than against the government. Some people interpret the “render unto Caesar” issue in a different way than I do.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 6:05 PM
Hand guns.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 6:08 PM
Hmm, I was all set to defend the right of the senate to invite the Hindu clergyman (is that the proper name for him] to open the senate session with a prayer, when I read this.
I think that you may be right and it wouldn’t be so bad if ALL prayer were stopped there–if it weren’t for the trend of the past forty-five years which seem to be pointing toward the total marginalization of Christianity and Judaism in public life and the elevation of other religions over those two.
baldilocks on July 12, 2007 at 6:10 PM
Yes I do agree, I don’t necessarily approve of the way they conducted themselves. But I wholeheartly approve of the stand they took against praying to a false God on the Senate floor.
As far as why they were arrested, the N.T. is filled wih accounts of Christians being arrested and jailed for offending the powers-that-be by standing up for their faith in Christ.
If you, as a Christian, don’t understand just how detrimental honoring false Gods in our governmental system can be, maybe you need to peruse the O.T. a little and see how much the nation of Israel was affected by those kinds of practices.
Why has Western Civilization has progressed as far as we have? Judeo-Christian values, principles, and faith. When we abandon those things we are doomed.
infidel4life on July 12, 2007 at 6:12 PM
Having been married before, I know for a fact that heated, passionate difference of opinion doesn’t always lead to violence. And least it didn’t in mine.
baldilocks on July 12, 2007 at 6:13 PM
The use of handguns in a violent way against innocent children in school is decidedly un-Christian. Don’t you think?
Reverent fear of god and knowledge that you will face eternal hell for acts of evil = a safe and peaceful society.
Suppression of such critical knowledge from the school system = handguns in schools which then requires armed security guards and metal detectors.
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 6:13 PM
I love these threads. Not interested so much in this one, because it seems like so much backtracking to explain the impetus for intentionally omitting the Christian god from both the Declaration of Independence and assuring that religion would not control the business of state via the Bill of Rights.
There must be some serious omissions in the history courses down there, because the Federalist Papers and most of the founding father’s writings are available online. I think I even provided links in a similar thread. In spite of providing the first source information, the same old canards return.
Krydor on July 12, 2007 at 6:15 PM
And for the Amish kids who hadn’t taken prayer out of their school when they were gunned down in cold blood??
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 6:17 PM
Also, this is assuming that all who heard the Word will accept it.
According to Christ, which He even addressed in parables, this is not the case. Presenting kids with the Word does not guarantee a peaceful society.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 6:19 PM
True. However keeping the word from the children guarantees a peace-less society.
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 6:22 PM
The Word isn’t being kept from children. It’s simply not being handed to them.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 6:23 PM
Great topic but I gotta go now. Chores and such. Nice talking with you.
Guardian on July 12, 2007 at 6:25 PM
I would attribute much of our crime problems relate to culture. Its a learned behavior. The black community has struggled with it mightily. Say for example, a young black boy picks up a book. He then gets mocked for “acting white.” In order to be authenically black he must put the book down and listen to Tupac. Tupac looks cool shooting a cop in his video. He watches other media outlets completely legitimize “his” new thug culture. Examples like this come in many many forms.
Race relations which is driving gang warfare in inner cities all over the country between the vast and sudden growth of young Hispanic males basically at war with young black males. Most gangs are divided up by race. They go to school with guns, knives and other weapons with the intention to hurt or kill others of opposing races. The Hispanic community is generally a rather Christian community as well.
I think there is less decipline instilled in our young ones as there once was. Respect for elders is a thing of the past. General good behavior is seen as an unecessary formality.
Metal detectors were invented around the same time God became removed from the classrooms.
Zetterson on July 12, 2007 at 6:25 PM
Well, that’s heartening. Too bad you seem to be in the minority though……
KMC1 on July 12, 2007 at 6:26 PM
Israel was a theocracy. America is not. There is a difference in contexts here.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 6:30 PM
How many of you supporting this man getting shouted down were up in arms when the nutroots shouted down Ann Coulter, or when they stormed the stage on the Minutemen? How’s that hypocrisy taste? Like chicken? Is somebody going to seriously tell me that denying someone the chance to speak supports freedom of speech–but only when he’s a Hindu, not when it’s somebody we agree with? I call out liberals for hypocrisy every day, can I in good conscience not call out people on my side of the fence for doing the same thing? Of course not.
It’s amazing to me how many Christians will squeal like stuck pigs at examples of anti-Christian bigotry, but are perfectly happy to support all kinds of bigotry against other religions. Me, I’m against anti-Christian bigotry, and I’m against anti-Hindu bigotry. I’m just generally against bigotry. Sure, it’s a work in progress, but it has a nice side benefit in that I get to be intellectually consistent–a concept a few people around here should try to wrap their brains around.
Sorry, but I’ll take the principle that by defending another man’s rights I defend my own over silencing people that have different beliefs than I do any day. So go ahead, somebody call me a liberal for daring to think that all Americans should be equal under the law. Tell me I’m not a patriot for believing that the 1st Amendment means what it says it means.
ReubenJCogburn on July 12, 2007 at 6:35 PM
Not to nitpick, but the metal detector was actually invented in 1881 in an attempt to find the bullet lodged in President James Garfield.
Esthier on July 12, 2007 at 6:36 PM
Context aside, the result will be the same. When God’s people turn away from Him, the shit hits the fan.
infidel4life on July 12, 2007 at 6:48 PM
Boy, these Senators really don’t know when to quit! Approval is at an all time low, they have spit on our national identity and security, and gee what else? Let’s invite the Raelians next to give “prayer”.
This was just another way to slap at those who protested the shamnesty. No question. Don’t Hindus practice a caste system? And eunuchs? And didn’t Gandhi encourage the Jews to jump in the ovens?
This did not belong now, in the Senate, with so much anger right now.
Hey Senators! How about sticking to tradition once in a while? Or will that really hurt you too much? You just seem to go out of your way to poke people in the eye.
This might have been a perfectly lovely man, but not right now I say. I work with a lot of Indian people I greatly admire and respect but for crying out loud. Not now.
CrimsonFisted on July 12, 2007 at 6:50 PM
First, thanks.
Second, there’s nothing wrong with a Christian prayer. If the aethists don’t believe in God, it’s no skin off their noses. For the rest, it’s comforting. Furthermore, this case is especially curious, because so many people have a Hollywood understanding of Hinduism they don’t know how it really works. Try this: Hindus believe in many gods. Since they already are adapted to worshipping multiple gods, many Hindus have NO problem offering prayers to Jesus in with the rest of them. So, there is no need for a Hindu prayer in the Senate, many Hindus have a respect for Jesus and due to their habits, they believe Jesus does deserve prayers and will even feel comfortable enough to give burn offerings to him.
Had a Bhuddist Sri Lankan woman (who had a gold idol of Buddha in her house- gave offering 3 times a day) say to me once, after helping a Nigerian African man who she didn’t even know – picked him off the street and paid for a month of medical treatment that saved his life – “I only did what Jesus tells us to do.” That’s what she said – JESUS.
So all this whining about Christians is cold-calculating manipulation coming from the agenda-driven hard Left.
The Left is counting on people not knowing how people live and worship in other countries, making them believe things that are simply not true.
naliaka on July 12, 2007 at 6:53 PM
Isn’t Hinduism about multiple deities? If we are to accept that and give it credibility in our place of governance doesn’t it belittle and marginalize anyone who believes in one God?
Is it everyones freedom of speach to get up in front of congress and make a statement? When is my turn?
If it is his right to pray to Shiva in our place of governance, wasn’t it the right of the objectors to pray to Jesus (which it sounded like what they were doing)?
Is moral relativism everywhere now?
peacenprosperity on July 12, 2007 at 7:08 PM
I have not read all the comments so perhaps someone has already responded but, yes, we do love our neighbor. That however, does not mean that we don’t tell them when they are wrong. Perhaps there would have been a better way to go about this. We are to obey the law of the land, unless it interferes with God’s law. So, they should not have disrupted the proceedings. Bad part is, how else do you get anyone’s attention these days?
boomer on July 12, 2007 at 7:25 PM
I’m a Christian. I believe in God and in Jesus but I know that others believe differently and that they are also part of this nation. I does not bother me that a Hindu or anyone else would “pray” in the Senate or anywhere else, that is just a symbol of our nations diversity (not really a bad word in a nation where freedom of religion is a right). If I could I would apologize to this man that was shouted down for the rudeness he was shown personally and to his religion by these few people. They certainly don’t represent me politically or in religious matters.
Buzzy on July 12, 2007 at 7:26 PM
Only to find out that the man claiming to have the map and flashlight only believes he has a map and flashlight and has no proof whatsoever to verify his own claims. You can’t expect any person not clouded by the same delusional belief as this man to flat out trust him. Say the man who believes that he has a map and flashlight (remember, with no evidence whatsoever) tells the men in the cave to take certain turns in the darkness, keep quiet when passing an area, et cetera. And here is where Pascal’s wager fails. We know the man claiming to have a map and flashlight doesn’t have either and is simply crazy. If we didn’t know that the man didn’t have a map and flashlight we might follow him because he might be right, just as we might follow another man in another cave claiming to have a compass and a lantern (another religion if you’re following the metaphor). Christianity may be the default to you, but it certainly isn’t the default to people who base their beliefs on logic, reason, and evidence.
The goal of Christianity is like most other religions. To pacify the masses into a certain form of group think. The idea behind Christianity might be all well and good (not caring at all about material possessions et cetera), but the second those ideas are turned into a religion where not believing in them will eternally damn you and what constitutes a believer is defined by a corporate hierarchy called “the church” the entire practice becomes perverted and the followers become an extension of that perversion.
I know! How dare “the Left” offend people! They should only do things so nobody can be offended! Did I also mention “the Left” are a bunch of politically correct despots?
Of course you have proof for this assumption. Newsflash for you: all societies fail (given time even America will fall) and the failing of these societies isn’t dependent on whether or not their government make Christian prayer mandatory.
Nonfactor on July 12, 2007 at 7:27 PM
Any other source for that vid?
My firewall excludes MSM sites.
TheSev on July 12, 2007 at 7:27 PM
Well since the gist of your pointless screed seems to revolve around “proof” – how about some proof to back up that ignorant statement?
infidel4life on July 12, 2007 at 7:35 PM
Where I disagree with you is that the Senate is not the people of God. The church is.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 7:37 PM
In love, then, I say that these idiots were wrong.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 7:41 PM
It is also his place of governance. It is a governmental institution that represents us all. It does not just represent Christians. Your comment, while you may not mean it to, smacks of bigotry.
nailinmyeye on July 12, 2007 at 7:43 PM
Look at the Catholic Church. Look at the radical Muslim Clerics. Look at most all organized religions that use a hierarchical standard. The ones at the top are always preaching to the ones at the bottom to think a certain way (how they should interpret their holy books, how they should vote on a political issue, what they should do to act in the will of their prophet, et cetera). If you deny that religions do this type of thing I’d find a news article for you, but hopefully you can see that in just about every religion the ones at the top enforce group think to the masses.
Nonfactor on July 12, 2007 at 7:45 PM
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