Romeo13 on July 11, 2007 at 12:15 PM

Not just the MSM but the Democratic leadership too. I say let the FBI loose on these scum. Where is a Edgar Hoover when you need one?

unseen on July 11, 2007 at 12:31 PM

Romeo13 on July 11, 2007 at 1:45 PM

I never said they were American puppets now. I said we imposed our culture on them at the time of conquest.

The North imposed its culture on the South. carpetbaggers, no slavery, etc.

All of the above mentioned (Except Cuba who overthrew that type of government)have some form of constitutional republic democracies, are mostly pro-American, are also mostly capitalistic, value basic human rights, and believe somewhat in the rule of law.

All of these are due to us imposing our culture on them at the time of conquest.

unseen on July 11, 2007 at 1:55 PM

Isn’t that one of the complaints with Iraq; that we are not imposing our way of government on them?

So, while we may have won the primary battle, it doesn’t appear to me like we are “conquering” or imposing on the Iraqi’s.

You guys seem to be splitting hairs.

DWB on July 11, 2007 at 1:46 PM

Now you understand why we are in the mess we are in. The American leadership never wanted to occupy Iraq in any real sense. They wanted to go in liberate the country form some type of alliance with the new Iraqi government and be able to have some FOB in the area to contain Iran and the terrorists.

The events on the ground forced the USA to become an occupier of the country. Instead of taken on that responsibility and providing security and order we still tried to go with a modification of the original plan. It didn’t work. The surge is nothing more than imposing our military will on the Iraqi countryside. Sadly our government still refuses to shoulder the political side of occupation

unseen on July 11, 2007 at 2:10 PM

created the de gaulle government instead of recognizing the Vichy
TheEJS on July 11, 2007 at 2:26 PM

Degaulle was a member of the French government before the War. He later became the leader of the “Free French government” in exile during the war due to the fact that he was sent to the British as an emissary and was out of the country when France fell. How was this creating a government? The Vichy government was occupied by the Germans after operation TORCH. This led to the Vichy army and the free french forces to merge in Nothern Africa. At the time of the Normandy invasion there were 400,000 Free French Troops and all fought in the liberation of French. They were not a conquered people by the time the Germans were pushed from France. During Operation Dragoon and the invasion of Southern Vichy France these “free french troops” fought algonside the Aliies. How is this fighting the French people? It is fighting the enemies of the Allies. Big difference. So two of the defitions are not met. The other two of your points (building bases and engaging the French government) can be expalined again as Allies working toegether. Not as occupation.

After the war Degualle chaired the provisional government. He resigend when the 4th Republic government was formed.

France was under the rule of the Provincial Government of the French Republic from 1944 and 1946. The French Committee of National Liberation declared itself, the French provincial government on June 2, 1944.

After returning to Paris, de Gaulle made the announcement that the citizens of the country would determine their future governmental system. After Germany was defeated, Gaulle scheduled a combined referendum. Elections were scheduled for October.

It was the first time in French history that women were granted suffrage. 96 per cent of the votes cast was against the return to the prewar regime. Everyone wanted a change in regime. Charles de Gaulle finally resigned on January 20, 1946.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/france/history/liberation-and-fourth-republic.html

So the USA reinstalled the pre-war government after the war not its “own government”.

The De gaulle 5th Republic government did not form until 1958. He pushed Nato out of France and built the French into a nuclear power. That sounds like a free soveign government to me.

EJS you need to stop trying to peg square arguments into round holes. We went into Iraq for liberation, the plan did not work and we became occupiers. It is not a fine line there are certian things that change the definiton from liberation to occupation. Some of these include: We did not have the backing of the free Iraqis. The Iraqis unlike the French were unable to form a unity government and thus we were required to form one under our rules. The local population in the Sunni area did not like this so we were required to fight them, the government we did form could not provide security and allowed the forgien terroists to flock into the country and thus we becoame responsible for security also.

In short it was the failure of the Bush administration to understand that the original plan of liberation had turned into that of occupation that has caused this mess that we are in.

Many say that this failure could be seen before the invasion even started and the battle plan should have been changed accordingly from liberation to one of occupying.

This difference in thinking is huge. It underlies troop strength needed, types of troops needed, supplies needed, money needed to fund the war, the rhetoric needed to get the population behind the war effort. Everything flows from which branch you start.

unseen on July 11, 2007 at 3:44 PM