Quote of the day
posted at 10:40 pm on July 10, 2007 by Allahpundit
“We are going back. A long way back.”
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Sounds great. Tell me which ones you plan to hit and when you plan to do it.
I’ll meet you there and make sure everything goes down as it should.
Kensington on July 11, 2007 at 2:03 AM
[governmentdrone on July 11, 2007 at 1:24 AM]
There is a site I use fairly often. It’s called New Advent and it has a Catholic Encyclopedia. They have a good entry on prayer. Beware, it is a lot of reading before you get to where it addresses prayer to Angels and Saints, so use your find box in firefox or IE.
Dusty on July 11, 2007 at 2:03 AM
Ok, are we saved by grace through faith in Christ alone or not? This is the lynchpin of our disagreement: justification.
We won’t be returning to Rome until Rome changes their views on justification.
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 2:06 AM
This reminded me of an incident when, for a short time, I studied at a seminary (not Catholic). An instructor was asking youth workers for unusual activities that they supervised or participated in. One worker said they had an activity that included finding a group of nuns and blurting out “Mary was a whore”. Divisions exist in every sect, every religion (including atheism).
jeffNWV on July 11, 2007 at 2:11 AM
I do not have a problem with that.
Not at all.
Ali-Bubba, thank you for reminding me personally to keep THE MAIN THING the MAIN THING. I am not interested in bashing or attacking anyone’s religious or non-religious views or perspectives. Indeed, I have learned much from many of the comments here posted at HotAir.com. It is too easy for all of us to be distracted by secondary side-shows that deflect attention away from primary issues of ultimate importance and supreme, lasting value. And I am guilty of that myself often.
Who is Jesus Christ, and what does He, the ultimate High Priest require of me, a sinner? Answer: to accept the gospel by placing my trust and dependence in Him alone.
I have found that thirsty beggars, like myself, can find Truth, ultimate fulfillment, and hope by drinking eternal water
at the fountain of Christ alone. One does not need human tradition, or man-centered rituals, or focus on “externals.” My encouragment is for my friends to just go directly to Christ alone.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 2:30 AM
I do not have a problem with that.
Not at all.
Jesus is the issue.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 2:37 AM
Several years ago I read of the possibility that Protestants and Catholics could reunite. It would still be a long time coming, but the existance of the thought of possibility had finally arrived. Alas, that possibility no longer exists.
hadsil on July 11, 2007 at 2:37 AM
Ali-Bubba, thank you for reminding me personally to keep THE MAIN THING the MAIN THING. I am not interested in bashing or attacking anyone’s religious or non-religious views or perspectives.
Indeed, I have learned much from many of the comments here posted at HotAir.com. It is too easy for all of us to be distracted by secondary side-shows that deflect attention away from primary issues of ultimate importance and supreme, lasting value. And I am guilty of that myself often.
Who is Jesus Christ, and what does He, the ultimate High Priest require of me, a sinner? Answer: to accept the gospel by placing my trust and dependence in Him alone.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 2:42 AM
I have found that thirsty beggars, like myself, can find Truth, ultimate fulfillment, and hope by drinking eternal water
at the fountain of Christ alone. One does not need human tradition, or man-centered rituals, or focus on “externals.” My encouragment is for my friends to just go directly to Christ alone.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 2:44 AM
Ha! As a Mormon who is constantly being told by some Protestants that he is not really a Christian, it’s funny to finally see the shoe on the other foot.
WasatchMan on July 11, 2007 at 2:46 AM
Much to do about nothing.
MB4 on July 11, 2007 at 3:11 AM
ColtsFan is a lot worse than chinotex. But even if I was “a better saint” than somebody else, I still have a
serious problem if I am placing my hope or trust in somebody other than Jesus for “help” with salvation.
Our hope is in Christ alone.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 3:14 AM
I don’t care what anybody says, any thread that includes Fragility getting banned is one of the best threads ever. That’s the Big A, bringing people together–well, except for the people that suck and get banned.
ReubenJCogburn on July 11, 2007 at 3:51 AM
Keep in mind this is the same Pope who just recently released the “Ten Commandments of Driving” – http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/19/vatican.road.rage.ap/index.html
thareb on July 11, 2007 at 5:54 AM
from todays london times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2056515.ece
the people who praised this pope for his hate of Islam, should have seen all of this coming.
zane on July 11, 2007 at 6:35 AM
Wait, I don’t understand. Do you mean to tell me that the Protestants are protesting the Pope’s ideas on religion? What is next ? Bakers baking bread.
I look askance at all religions originating in the middle east.
TheSitRep on July 11, 2007 at 6:44 AM
We have a priest. A high priest in fact. His name is Jesus.
Anybody got a problem with that?
Ali-Bubba on July 10, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Right on, Bubba!
Ratzinger was a Hitler youth, German anti-aircraft soldier “kind of guy,” until Eva and Adolf had their famous bunker party in 1945. Then, after various climbs up the cardinal ladder, Joe became the Pope’s sycophant for the blockbuster priest pedophile shellgame scandal earlier this decade.
Catholic people are the best! Ratzinger is not. Watch this guy closely.
saved on July 11, 2007 at 6:46 AM
People like “saved” who attack the Pope because he was a member of Hitler Youth as a child are despicable. Do you really want to hold what a man was forced to do in his youth as evidence of his character?
As for the normal Protestant crying about how we don’t need “tradition”…just remember how fundamentally un-conservative that position is. Perhaps you should read a little Edmund Burke or Russell Kirk. The very essence of conservatism is a respect for tradition.
WillBarrett on July 11, 2007 at 7:05 AM
Is it fishstick Friday yet?
Buzzy on July 10, 2007 at 11:29 PM
soundingboard on July 11, 2007 at 7:11 AM
On that last note, I am always amazed how much like liberals these conservative Protestants sound when they are so quick to discard to wisdom of the ages. Only MY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP AND OPINION is all that matters…how utterly like a liberal: It’s all about ME ME ME!!!
WillBarrett on July 11, 2007 at 7:11 AM
Quakers issue Fatwa in 5…4…3…2..
soundingboard on July 11, 2007 at 7:12 AM
His Holiness is correct. The Roman Catholic Church is the only church founded by Christ and then led by Peter. We have tradition and the Holy Bible on our side. We have the beauty of the Blessed Mother, all of His angels and Saints. The Pope is not “just a man” as someone wrote- he is the head of God’s only Church on earth, chosen by the Holy Spirit.
Did it ever occur to anyone that Kerry lost for more than secular reasons? Does anyone think that God would allow an apostate Catholic to win the Presidency?
trainwife1962 on July 11, 2007 at 7:43 AM
This thread looks more like Belfast than HotAir.
Thank you Allah for helping to expose the shortcomings of that bane of organised religion, the Theocracy Bureaucracy.
I consider myself a Christian,(tho my only trips to church these days are for weddings or funerals) believe in a Higher Power…
(Whether one calls that Higher Power, Christ, Yahweh, Allah, Brahma, The Cosmic Conciousness, or The Universal Id makes no diference to me. Unless they tell me to convert or die.)
…and have seen more signs pointing toward evidence of that Power, than not.
One example. A Baptist Hymnal opened by the winds of Katrina to three hymns.
1…Abide With Me.
2…From Every Stormy Wind That Blows
3…Come Ye Disconsolate
Absolute proof of the existence of God? No. But I call it more than a coincidence.
But people. All this “My religion can beat up your religion” BS needs to stop.
Unless it’s referencing the Islamakazi mindset.
That particular
factiondeath cult needs to be beaten to a pulp.soundingboard on July 11, 2007 at 7:54 AM
Uh, actually, sinners killed Christ.
oldleprechaun on July 11, 2007 at 7:58 AM
Kinda fouled up the text type feature.
Have I been here long enough to join others in asking for a preview feature?
soundingboard on July 11, 2007 at 7:58 AM
I would like to interject with a brief musical interlude the Irish Rovers “The Orange and the Green” or as its also known as the “Biggest Mixup”
EricPWJohnson on July 11, 2007 at 8:01 AM
reppac122 on July 11, 2007 at 8:04 AM
Last I read, Christ only requires Faith in Him, confessed with the mouth and believed in the heart, for Salvation.
Do I need the Pope or any of his sanctified Priests for that? I can’t find anything in the old or new testament that would lead me in that direction.
I respect the Roman Catholic Church for it’s history including all the warts. I don’t have a problem with the Pope affirming his church. But his church is just a part of The Church and I’m sorry that he seemingly disagrees with that.
Pilgrim on July 11, 2007 at 8:09 AM
These sorts of threads must be amusing to the atheists. But let’s face it, it’s a rather short converstation when all you can do is proclaim the degree to which you don’t believe in a higher being.
What happens if an atheist backslides and becomes an agnostic? For a belief system that requires as much faith as atheism does, I’d imagine there should be some sort of mechanism for exclusion from the circle of nothingness.
Asher on July 11, 2007 at 8:13 AM
I would invite you to consider that Hitler youth were not forced to participate in the manner you might imagine. These children, not only in Germany, were taught at a very impressionable age to become effective killers with the Nazi brand of fanatical hatred that we also see in Islam.
The Hitler Youth were the ranks of the Werewolves, who in post war Germany were responsible for the death of GI’s and were executed if caught even at a tender age. There was no cry from the press regarding this since the US was backing their military back then.
“Despicable” is a better fit for Hitler Youth and Werewolves than posters who still react negatively at the idea of their existence along with excuses of those who were part of these organizations. No one in Germany knew of the death camps, everyone was forced to support the Nazis’, and the rest were simply following orders, much like Islam.
Hening on July 11, 2007 at 8:14 AM
My faith in the intelligence of the American people has been shaken over the last few days here on HA.
We have the LAT changing a published story without disclosure and the people do exactly what the LAT hoped, fight over Fred instead of being appalled by such manipulation and asking what other stories have been changed and never discovered.
Now we have the Pope repeating a paper from 6 years ago that says, here is the Catholic definition of “Church” and some non-Catholics meet it and some don’t. Again, the people act exactly as the MSM intended, they fight and insult one another over, all things considered, unimportant differences.
With surrender on the horizon in Iraq, appeasement in Europe and America on the rise, Iran marching steadily toward obtaining nuclear weapons, Pakistan on the verge of chaos, Christians are going to swallow the Devil’s bait and start fighting amongst themselves. Not to be left out, the Jews get offended that some Catholic Church somewhere in the world will have a Latin Mass in which Catholics will pray from their conversion. All the while radical Muslims plot the next holocaust for Jews, Christians and Atheists alike.
I am pessimistic about the future this morning. I can’t help but feel this is all going to end very badly when “informed” people are so easily manipulated.
TheBigOldDog on July 11, 2007 at 8:15 AM
Amen Dog….Amen.
Pilgrim on July 11, 2007 at 8:17 AM
John 3:16. Google it.
Take that Pope!
saltydogg14 on July 11, 2007 at 8:20 AM
Fishsticks and beans.
Hening on July 11, 2007 at 8:21 AM
Protestant churches yesterday reacted with dismay to a new declaration approved by Pope Benedict XVI insisting they were mere “ecclesial communities” and their ministers effectively phonies with no right to give communion.
As a Protestant, I should care what the Pope thinks because… why exactly do I care what the Pope thinks?
Physics Geek on July 11, 2007 at 8:35 AM
It’s not all bad. This and the LAT article are but minor issues. When the issue was important, Shamnesty was defeated. And I believe the defeat of Shamnesty was a victory of the common sense of the masses over the political correctness of the elite that never would have happened in the past. It is a landmark event that bodes well for the future.
Keep hope!
thuja on July 11, 2007 at 8:37 AM
You know, this might be an issue if Protestants gave credence to or took direction from the Vatican. But we don’t, so why are we getting our shorts in a bunch?
For those who believe in Christ, this amounts to a “family” disagreement and we should cut it out already. For those who don’t, I can’t imagine why you would care.
Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. (1 Cor 12:14-18)
Grouchy Old Yorkie Lady on July 11, 2007 at 8:49 AM
There’s nothing new here! This has been the position of the Chruch since Luther! If he’s wrong, we’ll all find out on the other side!
Dread Pirate Roberts VI on July 11, 2007 at 8:51 AM
This is nothing new. When I was in Catholic school I was told several times the the Catholic church was the only true church. I’m surprised its such a big “news” story.
vcferlita on July 11, 2007 at 8:54 AM
When the Church of Rome has a real, mortal enemy in Islamic imperialsim, they choose to fight their brothers and sisters in Christ with this retrograde minutae?
Who’s slipping the Pope the stupid pills?
(A Muslim double agent?)
profitsbeard on July 11, 2007 at 9:07 AM
pullingmyhairout on July 11, 2007 at 9:14 AM
Here’s a synopsis of church history (Orthodox and Catholic) for those interested. It might shed some light as to why the Pope wrote what he wrote.
Have a great day!
pullingmyhairout on July 11, 2007 at 9:24 AM
Most of you responders seem to be Catholic, and to care deeply about this former Nazi. Fact is, the Catholic Church is increasingly irrelevent, and should be.
Shouldn’t he be more concerned about all those pedophile priests and sadistic nuns still running loose out there?
glockman on July 11, 2007 at 9:47 AM
I feel like I should be offended, but we don’t take our cues from the pope anyway. That’s what the whole revolution has done for us.
Still though, as a Christian, I hate seeing the leader of a large sect of Christianity do so much do divide us like this. It’s very hard to be an effective body of Christ when an arm is fighting a foot.
Whether or not we all speak in Latin, which I don’t recall Jesus ever doing, and drink wine, seems a little less important than believing Christ died, rose and is now our Lord and Savior.
Esthier on July 11, 2007 at 9:54 AM
Anyone spotted Protestant Rage Boy yet? Surely there must be masses of Protestants seething and burning catholic churches and threatening death to rome somewhere……? no?
Keli on July 11, 2007 at 9:56 AM
Tad, I have no idea who died and made Abe Foxman king of Jewish opinion. His behavior was sooo disgraceful during the run-up to the release of the Passion. I think everybody should be 100% what they are. Of course Christians want Jews to convert; what kind of Christians are they if they think their own deal isn’t the best deal? Orthodox Jews want all Jews to keep kosher, for heaven’s sake. That’s who they are. People think that because we have idiots like these Islamofascists acting upon all the craziest aspects of their dogma, that all religious/dogma will lead ineluctably to the same end. Nope. Just as the suspension of habeus corpus by Lincoln didn’t lead to the end of the Western Civ as we know it, religious people believing firmly in their own belief system doesn’t have to end up in a bloodbath. And that’s why the founders got it right–they created a structure in which all that could happen–a true religious diversity. Not diversity as it’s used in its current hackneyed sense, of watering all relgions down until they are unrecognizable and no longer have any truth claims, but rather a really robust form of diversity in which every religion, sect, or denomination realizes itself fully, yet in the true sense of liberalism (pace DU) holds itself back from doing that which prevents the other ones from doing the same. That’s one thing that Israel really got wrong when it was founded. Ben Gurion thought the Orthodox were about to disappear, and so he gave the rabbinate all this state power. WRONGO! Now it’s turned into a hugely divisive thing in Israeli society, and has corrupted many fine rabbis, as power has a tendency to do. Look folks–thank G0d we live in the US of A, where we can all get along, or not. But you have to leave the other guy a place to stand, so let’s take it easy on each other.
smellthecoffee on July 11, 2007 at 10:01 AM
I won’t bring up the RC Church’s decidedly Un-Christian cult-like idolotry of Mary as a co-equal peer of the Trinity.
I won’t bring up the RC Church’s dogma that it takes a Priest and rituals for one to recieve God’s forgiveness for sins.
I won’t even bring up the RC Church’s shameful record of hiding sexual molestors and allowing them to rack up multiple victims.
Instead, I’ll simply point out that the RC Church believed all that the current Pope stated under Pope John Paul II and, yet, the church was not going out of its way to antagonize other faiths.
highhopes on July 11, 2007 at 10:03 AM
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
angryoldfatman on July 11, 2007 at 10:03 AM
“John said to Him, “Rabbi, we saw a man expelling demons in your name; and because he wasn’t one of us, we told him to stop.” But Jesus said, “Don’t stop him, because no one who works a miracle in my name will soon after be able to say something bad about me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Indeed whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you come in the name of the Messiah — yes! I tell you that he will certainly not lose his reward.” Mark 9:38-41 (CJB)
srhoades on July 11, 2007 at 10:11 AM
Zaire67 on July 11, 2007 at 10:15 AM
It is a matter of history.
1500 years after Jesus, Himself established the Catholic Faith & Church, on the Rock called ‘the 1st Pope’, Peter…a heretical, Benedictine monk named Martin Luther, in collusion w/a corrupt, murderer-king, ushered in the great protest & reform…hence the term ‘Protestants’. This was done so that said King could divorce his Catholic Queen (actually, he let her rot in a tower) & marry an 18 year old girl whom he beheaded some ’1000 days’ later for yet another broad whom he also beheaded.
Erasmus of Rotterdam councilled Martin L.strongly NOT to do this…laying out the utter destruction it would cause the aural tradition, esp. as concerns devotion to the Mother of Jesus…..suggesting there were better ways to confront the financial abuses of the Church at that time.
1. By what authority did Martin Luther do this?? If you answer ‘his own’…then you identify the beginning of new age liberalism as well as why he was considered ‘heretical’ by the Church.
2. There are as of now, hundreds! of Protestant sects all proclaiming to be the real Bride of Christ. Not possible, & they were ALL established by a human. It is a matter of History…Jesus alone is the author of the Catholic faith & this is what the Holy Father understands.
lobosan5 on July 11, 2007 at 10:16 AM
highhopes on July 11, 2007 at 10:03 AM
You have a complete misunderstanding of Marian devotion. It is not “cult-like idolatry” nor is she made equal to the Trinity. The purpose of Marian devotion is to become like the first diciple (Mary) so that you can do as she told the cup barers at the wedding feast in John chapter 2 and as the Father said on to the deciples in Matthew chapter 17. I defy you to find a true Catholic who worships Mary. I suggest you read Witness to Hope , George Weigel’s biography of JPII.
srhoades on July 11, 2007 at 10:22 AM
It’s just more old rich men with nothing better to do than to mess with the rest of us.
Drum on July 11, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Hey, I’m just glad the Pope finally used his powers to decide there’s no more Limbo.
brak on July 11, 2007 at 10:31 AM
This is his authority as commanded by Jesus:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clense the outside of the cup and dish, but the inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee, first clense the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” Matt. 23:25-26
Zaire67 on July 11, 2007 at 10:32 AM
Amen. Good is good, no matter from whom it comes.
The story of the hated, despised Samaritan who nursed his sworn enemy back to health was the perfect illustration of that.
The Muslims who help our brothers, fathers, sisters, mothers, sons, and daughters in their struggle against evil – they will be rewarded for the good they do.
If Iraqis can overcome the differences between us and them, I see no reason why we American Christians – Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Mormon – shouldn’t be able to do so as well.
angryoldfatman on July 11, 2007 at 10:34 AM
He probably had trouble getting that hat under the bar.
angryoldfatman on July 11, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Oh, but don’t worry. If anyone in this thread complains about an insult against Christians, we have some here who would argue that it’s the same exact thing as when Muslims took to the streets with signs saying “Behead those who insult Islam.”
Under that theory, we’ve probably already got one here.
Esthier on July 11, 2007 at 10:44 AM
Hmmm, let me think…
THE “Church” of living GOD of the Bible is either the one that has apparently for years been full of pedophiles and homosexuals, the one who has squandered MILLIONS of christian dollars, given to the “Church” for the work of God but used instead to pay out and pay off for the CRIMES committed by it’s immoral “priests” that it couldn’t at the very least identify and control and the one that attempted to sell the “right” to sin against the God of the Universe in the past…
or,
the CHURCH of the living God is in the collective hearts of redeemed by the blood of Christ believers the world over, who have ever lived, are living now, or will ever live in the future…
Not to take anything away from the good works that the Catholic Church DOES do the world over and the efforts put into her by the decent and God fearing majority of Catholic priests and others within, but it really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this all out…
NRA4Freedom on July 11, 2007 at 10:46 AM
Catholics are so oversensitive it is amazing. There are so many instances on here claiming ‘anti-Catholic bigots’ on this issue.
This issue by its nature is bigoted against all other Christians, but Catholics can’t see that. I’m as Christian as they come, and as Protestant as they come – so understand that I don’t care what the Pope says because he don’t speak for me – and Jesus wasn’t Catholic.
However, if a non-Catholic Christian leader said that Catholics were not ‘really Christian’, Catholics would be up in arms about anti-Catholic bigots. I find it amazing that Catholics are ‘shocked’ that some Protestant Christians are a little upset that the Pope doesn’t consider them to be Christian.
By the way, this isn’t news as Catholics have always been exclusionary like this. If this Pope wants to unify the Christian church, this ain’t the way to do it.
ThackerAgency on July 11, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Look, despite some rather amazingly large differences of opinion on doctrine, most protestants and catholics (at least the ones I know) consider each other brothers and sisters in Christ.
Protestants: There’s no reason to get our panties in a twist because the Pope says something with which we disagree. Heck, I think most of us can say we have found ourselves in the same position at some point when listening to a protestant pastor.
Catholics: I have seen very little bigotry in this thread or elsewhere pointed at you. Please don’t suppose that we hate you, we just don’t hold all the tenets you do. I think we can all agree to disagree on this one. I personally have no problem worshipping with you and most protestants of my acquaintance are like minded in that respect(and I think I can say that most of the protestants here would say the same).
To all: May the Lord bless and keep you. May he make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. May he look with favor upon you and give you peace.
Penthesileia on July 11, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Troubles
For some three centuries after Christ, the early Christians chose martyrdom rather than participate in idolatry, but when Christianity became the state religion under Constantine, all this began to change. The heathen temples became Christian churches, the pagan idols were given the names of Saints and were soon being venerated. The pagan worship of the mother goddess, which had originated in Babylon and spread to pagan Rome as the cult of Cybele, now evolved into the worship of the Virgin Mary as Queen of Heaven. It was in the very city of Ephesus, infamous for its worship of the goddess Diana, that a Church Council in 431 A.D., declared Mary to be “Mother of God”. As the idolatrous practices spread and increased throughout Christendom, they received official legality in 788 A.D. at the Second Council of Nicea.
The book “The Glories of Mary” by the Roman Catholic Saint Alphonsus Liguari, goes as far as to state:-
“We often obtain more promptly what we ask by calling on Mary than on Jesus.”
Guardian on July 11, 2007 at 10:59 AM
“Mary, you are full of Grace, and God is up there with you. You’re blessed, especially compared to the rest of us rabble down here. And that kid of yours? He’s superplus blessed. Since you’re so fantastic, and you did give birth to God, could you ask the big guy to help me out down here? And I’m not talking about just right now, but also right before I die. Lord knows I’m going to need the help, because I’m no saint, that’s for sure.”
chinotex on July 10, 2007 at 11:52 PM
Chinotex, I salute you.
That is the BEST modern translation of the Hail Mary which I have read in a LONG time.
inviolet on July 11, 2007 at 11:00 AM
Actually, Protestants don’t care what church you go to so long as you’re a Christian. If you’re a friend, I might invite you to my church (if I had one), but only because I’d want to hang out with you, not because I think you can only be a Christian if you go to mine.
The thing is, Methodist are still Christians. It’s all the same religion. No Christian should be upset because another Christian chooses a different method of worship or prayer, and that’s all these separate denominations do, worship and pray differently.
I agree. There’s no reason to start one. Christians are Christians.
Esthier on July 11, 2007 at 11:05 AM
“Nevertheless, brothers, I call on you in the Name of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah to agree, all of you, in what you say and not to let yourselves remain split into factions but be restored to having a common mind and a common purpose. For some of Chloe’s people have made it know to me, my brothers, that there are quarrels among you. I say this because one of you says, ‘I follow Paul’; another says, ‘I follow Apollos’; another says, ‘I follow Peter’; while another says, ‘I follow the Messiah’! Has the Messiah been split into pieces? Was is Paul who was put to death on a cross for you? Were you Baptized in the name of Paul?” 1 Corinthians 1:10-16 (CJB)
(If I can steal from St. Paul yet again.) There is only one Church, it is a Body with many parts. What we have here is the eye telling the ear it isn’t part of the Body because it is not an eye and the ear telling the eye it isn’t a part of the Body either because it failed to recognize something.
srhoades on July 11, 2007 at 11:06 AM
“The book “The Glories of Mary” by the Roman Catholic Saint Alphonsus Liguari, goes as far as to state:-
‘We often obtain more promptly what we ask by calling on Mary than on Jesus.’ ” –Guardian on July 11, 2007 at 10:59 AM
Dear Guardian,
Yes, we Catholics are aware of the book The Glories of Mary, it is FILLED with hyperbole of the sort of “my dad is the VERY BEST DAD IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!” [Really? In the history of the world?] It’s a love poem basically, for goodness’ sake, not a theological treatise. And for the record, that statement you reprinted is not Catholic teaching.
No, we Catholics do not worship Mary. We worship God in three persons, just as other Christians do. We just want to take advantage of ALL the graces He has provided for us, like people in Heaven who are even closer to God than anyone on earth is, who are aware of our struggles and want to pray for us (see “cloud of witnesses,” Hebrews 12). I’ll take anything Jesus would like to give me, thank you. Extra prayin’ friends in Heaven especially, who will help me to live more like Him.
Look up “Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine” by Patrick Madrid. Short and a great read.
inviolet on July 11, 2007 at 11:07 AM
That should read, “who will help me to live more like Him, by praying for me,” obviously.
inviolet on July 11, 2007 at 11:08 AM
** NEWS FLASH **
Pope thinks Catholicism best religion on planet! Says others have defects!
Let the outrage begin!
Coming up after the break -did President Bush say the US was the greatest country on earth, or was his comment taked out of context.
taznar on July 11, 2007 at 11:23 AM
Yes, I need work on grammar and puctuation (taken -taked is not a word). And that should be a question mark at the end.
taznar on July 11, 2007 at 11:26 AM
The Bible (which has more authority than the Pope) says that there is ONE and ONLY one mediator between God and man and that man is Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 2:5) There is nothing wrong with asking Mary or the Saints to pray for you. But Catholics do more than just ask Mary to pray for them. They claim mary never sinned and that is UNBIBLICAL. They claim Mary was a perpetual virgin and that is UNBIBLICAL. They have huge statues of her in their churches and they offer her prayers. That is IDOLATRY. Mary was just an ordinary human being who just happened to be favored by God. She is no more special than anyone else in the Bible in which God showed special favor.
calirighty on July 11, 2007 at 11:31 AM
You can all rest easy now knowing Tori Spelling became a minister.
kiakjones on July 11, 2007 at 11:36 AM
Except that we do use them. I mean I take part in communion.
I don’t recall Christ worrying about tradition. In fact, Paul made a big deal out of straying from tradition; hence Christians don’t have to be circumcised. And it was Christ who told Peter to break with tradition and eat “unclean” meat.
Really, there’s no reason we can’t come together on this. Being the “one church” and all aside, is not Christ all that is required?
If something else is required, then I guess Christ isn’t all that great then.
Are you trying to say that JFK was a good Catholic?
Esthier on July 11, 2007 at 11:44 AM
Again, he’s railing on a different denomination, not a different religion.
Esthier on July 11, 2007 at 11:45 AM
Poor Sydney Carton! I can feel your frustration. I wish I could have been here to help. I was a Protestant for the first 24 years of my life and I asked these very same questions that others have asked here. It wasn’t until I studied the 2000 years of tradition and faith of the Catholic Church that I understood and had my questions answered. For example, most people don’t realize that Luther believed in the real body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. That wasn’t a point of contention for him. Yet somehow it got watered away after the reformation.
I don’t think people should read how the media interprets what the Pope says. He isn’t referring to Churches in the sense that we view them here. He is referring to a theological definition formed by the Catholic Church centuries ago.
Someone here made the point that if things could have been handled differently with Luther back then, maybe we could all still be Catholic and not have this division. I wish this was so. Because the divison wasn’t just the reformation, but the breakaway of of thousands and thousands of denominations.
I don’t see the use in arguing. Explaining. Asking questions. Yes. But not arguing. Christ loves us all, Protestant, Catholic, non-believer. Salvation is right in front of each of us. The miracle and the joy of this is that we only have to reach out and accept it.
Rightwingsparkle on July 11, 2007 at 11:49 AM
Ok, since your so knowledgeable, what was the church father’s position on justification? What did, say, Augustine, Irenaus, Polycarp, etc. believe about it? What did they believe about the sacraments? What did they believe about the primacy of Peter, about papal infallibility?
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 11:58 AM
Yeah, except for the Protestants who throw tantrums when they walk into a Catholic Bookstore that is marked as a Christian bookstore, God forbid! There are plenty of Protestant ministers and activist laity who don’t consider Catholics Christian.
Look, I’m not trying to be a dick, but don’t pretend you guys are any better on this matter. In fact, I could probably dredge up plenty more, but I’m a lazy bastard.
Bad Candy on July 11, 2007 at 12:05 PM
This might shed some light. The Roman Catholic church corrupted this doctrine, not the Reformers.
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 12:09 PM
Jesus did not “build” the church on Peter, He built it on Peter’s confession.
Rose on July 11, 2007 at 12:13 PM
I don’t claim to be all knowledgeable. I just studied to have my questions answered. I am no theologian. I don’t know specifics about the others, but St. Augustine was always fascinating to me because of his wild past, and then becoming such an influential philosopher, wedding philosphical tradition and the Judeo-Christian religious and scriptural traditions. He believed in the Church’s teachings on all the things you mentioned.
One of my favorite quotes of his regarding his conversion: “If you don’t believe it, you won’t understand it,”
And then he wrote after his converstion: “all the darkness of doubt vanished away.”
Rightwingsparkle on July 11, 2007 at 12:15 PM
oops. converstion=conversion
Rightwingsparkle on July 11, 2007 at 12:16 PM
Whoa! Wait a minute. The Pope never said that non-Catholics are not Christian! Of course not!
Rightwingsparkle on July 11, 2007 at 12:18 PM
The issue is this: what is Rome’s teaching about justification, and what did the church fathers believe? In order for you to make the claim that the Roman church has 2000 years of history on its side with regards to its teaching, you would have to prove that Rome agrees with the church fathers in its core teachings, namely the Gospel and justification. This is the central issue. How are men right with God? Is it through the sacraments? Is it through works? Is it through faith alone (the Reformers’ rallying cry)?
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 12:22 PM
Reuben, should we page Michelle? The Big A STILL has not received his just reward yet.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 12:23 PM
The Pope may have gotten rid of Limbo, but he hasn’t managed to stop the Bossa Nova.
profitsbeard on July 11, 2007 at 12:23 PM
St Alphonsus was a man of virtue, but he was not infallible in matters of faith and morals (which is the limit of the Pope’s infallibility, by the way). But even if there were truth to the statement, it would not be the first time someone attempted to appeal to a higher authority by asking for his mother to put in a good word for him.
The devotion of Catholic and Orthodox Christians to Mary is little more than that.
Oh, and speaking of the Orthodox, I found this:
Well?
manwithblackhat on July 11, 2007 at 12:28 PM
You just proved my point about Catholics being oversensitive Bad Candy. Thanks for your contribution to my side of the debate.
Your LEADER (not my leader, nor were the people you linked to my leader) considers me not to be Christian. I don’t care what PEOPLE think. But YOU and MOST other Catholics would care if some other Protestant leader said that he didn’t think YOU were Christian.
Yet you can’t figure out why some (very few posting here) Protestants take offense to that while you take offense at anything deemed ‘anti-Catholic’.
I would love to see the Christian Church united – but it ain’t going to be united by forcing every Christian to be Catholic. That’s what Catholics AND your Pope need to understand. Protestants love JESUS and the Bible – that makes them saved and Christian according to the Bible.
ThackerAgency on July 11, 2007 at 12:35 PM
ROME’S UNSCRIPTURAL DOCTRINES
AND DATES OF THEIR INCEPTION
1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.
2. Sign of the Cross 310 A.D.
3. Wax votive candles 320 A.D.
4. Veneration of saints and angels 375 A.D.
5. Mary declared “Mother of God” 431 A.D.
6. Priests begin to wear vestments 500 A.D.
7. Worship in Latin 600 A.D.
8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas 610 A.D.
9. Feast days in honour of Mary 650 A.D.
10. Kissing of the Pope’s feet 709 A.D.
11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed 750 A.D.
12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea 788 A.D.
13. Holy water 850 A.D.
14. Veneration of St. Joseph 890 A.D.
15. Baptism of bells 965 A.D.
16. Canonization of dead saints 995 A.D.
17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998 A.D.
18. Rosary beads 1090 A.D.
19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests 1097 A.D.
20. Inquisition of heretics 1184 A.D.
21. Sale of Indulgences 1190 A.D.
22. Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215 A.D.
23. Confession to a priest 1215 A.D.
24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God) 1220 A.D.
25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books –
by Council of Valencia 1229 A.D.
26. Red hats for Cardinals 1245 A.D.
27. Feast of Corpus Christi 1264 A.D.
28. The Miraculous scapular 1287 A.D.
29. Roman church as the only true church 1303 A.D.
30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion 1415 A.D.
31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence 1439 A.D.
32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments 1439 A.D.
33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible 1545 A.D.
34. Justification by works and not faith alone 1545 A.D.
35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding 1560 A.D.
36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary 1854 A.D.
37. Papal infallibility 1870 A.D.
38. Papal decree on mixed marriages — all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void 1908 A.D.
39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God 1931 A.D.
40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary
Guardian on July 11, 2007 at 12:36 PM
Of course, there are only two sacraments for Protestants, based on the Bible, so yeah, the other five Catholic sacraments are of no concern to Protestants (or remain only as ordinances in a few cases).
The Lutheran position is not the same as the Transubstantiation of the catholics. ” . . .Luther explicitly rejected transubstantiation, believing that the bread and wine remained fully bread and fully wine while also being fully the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Luther instead emphasized the sacramental union (not exactly the consubstantiation, as it is often claimed).”
brak on July 11, 2007 at 12:39 PM
Can any protestant or Roman Catholic here give a valid definition of their doctrine of JUSTIFICATION?
Here’s what the Reformers believed:
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 12:40 PM
Moreover, Luther rejected the idea that communion infused salvific righteousness into the communicant. He believed it was a means of sanctifying grace, not justifying grace. Enormous difference there.
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 12:42 PM
This is so bad, to see our Lords children arguing with each other. Last night, that was all that kept going through my mind as I read this thread. So this morning I looked at it a different way, I have seen more new posters on this thread than on any that I remember. The fact that their are so many of YOU, WHO ALL LOVE OUR GOD is a comforting thing in and of itself. May His Light shine on ALL of us.
Jesus is Lord
abinitioadinfinitum on July 11, 2007 at 12:43 PM
Here is an interesting link to the Church Fathers and their teachings.
here.
God Bless
DrM2B on July 11, 2007 at 12:44 PM
If you are not justified, you are not adopted as one of God’s children. Justification PRECEDES adoption. So let’s hammer out our differences there first.
PRCalDude on July 11, 2007 at 12:44 PM
The pope has made a statement that is not based in scripture. We are just discussing it. I don’t understand why that upsets some here. I attended a Bible college. We discussed the scriptures. We discussed our faith. It is not a bad thing.
Rose on July 11, 2007 at 12:46 PM
PRCalDude,
Well, first of all the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work on our salvation.
Saint Paul did focus on Faith as our means of salvation, but he also wrote this: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).
We are saved by God’s grace. There is no doubt about that. The Catholic Church teaches that justification comes by faith. Only it says that it doesn’t come through faith alone.
Here is the bone of contention:
“Romans 3:28 is a key verse in the differences between traditional Protestants and Catholics. You will notice that Paul says a man is justified by faith (pistei in Greek). When Martin Luther translated the letter to the Romans into German in the sixteenth century, he added the word alone —but alone is not in the original Greek text. The phrase “faith alone” does occur in the New Testament: one time, in James 2:24. There the inspired apostle denies that justification is from faith alone. Let me quote it: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
I have seen no evidence that the Church fathers believed anything differently. Do you know of any?
Rightwingsparkle on July 11, 2007 at 12:47 PM
Gah – what a joke. The Vatican, various Cardinals, and The Pope issue thousands upon thousands of papers, theses, and other writings every year.
The MSM picks up on the 1% that may be deemed controversial and to show the Church in a negative light.
Of course HotAir cherry picks from those 1% to try and get people arguing….
reaganaut on July 11, 2007 at 12:49 PM
Rightwingsparkle, whaz up? Nice site by the way. I have enjoyed your comments in the past at HotAir.com, … except for the ones suppporting McCain for Prez….. I am sorry, just kidding….. :-)
Hey, as a Christian, I too like Augustine. Augustine is cool. I still think that Augustine, in his “Argument from Truth,” wrote the strongest philosophical argument against Atheism/Naturalism to date. I am not opposed to “tradition per se,” but I reject the ***primacy of tradition*** over the primacy of Scripture.
You can keep Augustine while at the same time rejecting heretical teaching that states that your salvation is dependent on a life-time of “good works” stemming from human merit as a partial condition of entry into heaven.
I eat chicken, but I spit out the bones. Same principle.
Just stick with Jesus.
ColtsFan on July 11, 2007 at 12:49 PM
I try not to worship at the church in Ephesus in Revelation.
abinitioadinfinitum on July 11, 2007 at 12:53 PM
brak,
You are right. A distinction that still believes in the real body and blood of Christ in the bread and wine.
Most Protestant Churchs no longer believe this. Which was my point.
Rightwingsparkle on July 11, 2007 at 12:54 PM
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