In which I fisk Dan Riehl
posted at 12:51 am on July 7, 2007 by Bryan
Let me preface this craptacular post by saying that I hate back-and-forth blog flame wars. They’re a total waste of energy and time. Let me also say that I didn’t want to do this. I didn’t want to write this post. Dan Riehl’s a decent guy, a solid conservative, and all-around I’ve never had a personal issue with him.
Dan didn’t like my post today about the hijab. Fair enough; there’s ample room on the Right for disagreement in good faith. We’re not a bunch of Bushbots or clones, not by a long shot. But he called me a bigot over the course of disagreeing with me, or at least left the impression that he was calling me a bigot, which was out of bounds. I don’t like being called a bigot, at least by conservatives (liberals do it all the time, and I don’t care, because most of them just do it to shut down debate). It’s a smear to call someone a bigot if they’re not one, and I’m not one. I left a comment on that post of his, making sure that that’s what he intended to say; he didn’t reply there or in email. He chose to write another post and challenge me to a public debate instead, and emailed that post to me. He wants some kind of big ol’ back-n-forth. Yawn.
What’s to debate? Here’s what he wrote in his first post, which was his negative reaction to my post:
I don’t abide Christian, or Judeo-Christian bigotry any more than I do Muslim bigotry. I’m willing to call Muslim bigots, or radical sympathizers what they are when I see them. But I’m not going to shy away from calling out unproductive bigotry when I see it on the Right, either.
I don’t care that he disagrees with me. If he’d put up a good argument why, I might have changed my mind. I just hoped he wasn’t calling me a bigot, but there it is. He’s reacting to my post by “calling out unproductive bigotry on the Right.” (What would constitute “productive bigotry,” by the by? Is that the bigotry that Americans won’t do?) I’m on the Right. He’s reacting to my post. Looks like he’s calling me a bigot.
In his public debate post, he says “No, Bryan. I am not calling you a bigot.” But it finishes with “I don’t know if you’re a bigot or not.” In between, it’s full of fluffery about how bad it is to conflate Islam with terrorism, how that ignores the socio-economics of terrorism, et al. Dan doesn’t make a logical case that he didn’t call me a bigot. He just asserts that he didn’t, when it’s obvious that he did (intentionally or not, is hard to say) and bloviates.
He also added that I’m untalented in one of his emails, to which I plead “Guilty as charged!” What else ya got? Oh yeah, he said I might be ignorant too. Or that I might be a “Christian bigot,” a line that just might betray a trace of anti-Christian bigotry in Riehl’s world. Why bring up the Christian angle, Dan? I hadn’t, in this context, at all.
As to the quality of the posts, and why I didn’t want to debate, just look at how sloppy the thinking is. Dan said in that same paragraph that might be calling me a bigot that he doesn’t “abide Christian, or Judeo-Christian bigotry…Muslim bigotry” (making Dan Riehl Humanitarian of the Year, no doubt) but glosses right over bigotry that’s not religion-based. Does that mean that he does abide atheist bigotry or the soft bigotry of low expectations? Or that he thinks there is no bigotry outside religion? Now, I’m a charitable blogger and I don’t think that he meant that at all; I think he was just throwing something on the site without a whole lot of thought put into it. He didn’t like my post, and he was being sloppy in his reaction. Who among us bloggers hasn’t tossed up a sloppy post once or twice? That’s why I declined to debate. It wasn’t worth it and wouldn’t end well, in all likelihood. I planned to go on vacation and forget the whole thing. But Dan wants a debate. Well alrighty then, try and reconcile one post that obliquely calls me an unproductive bigot and the next one denying calling me a bigot at all, then saying that he doesn’t know whether I’m a bigot or not. Go debate yourself, in other words, Dan. You’re already on two or three sides of that issue. It ought to be a spirited exchange.
Look, I hate arguments like this. I’ve avoided them for years, because they’re pointless and counterproductive and turn nominal allies into armed camps against each other. They’re tedious for the readers. People start name-calling and no one really covers themselves in glory. I’d hoped to keep this one in email and then defuse it. But if Dan’s going to goad me on two sites and broadcast snippets of emails that I thought were a private discussion, he’s asked for a smackdown. And that’s all I have to say on the subject.









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Heh, sloppy posts are my crapblog’s bread and butter.
That said, Dan’s coming off like Dean Esmay.
Bad Candy on July 7, 2007 at 12:58 AM
Here’s a line
__________________________________________
I double dare him to cross it.
Togib!
(That’s a backward bigot.)
profitsbeard on July 7, 2007 at 12:59 AM
That sucks, Bryan, I’m sorry you have to deal with all that right before going on vacation. I hope you have a relaxing time and we can’t wait to have you and your talented self back home soon.
-Hope
tikvah on July 7, 2007 at 1:00 AM
Heh. I wouldn’t go that far. Dean is malicious in his inventions of straw men to joust. Dan was just a little sloppy and a lot annoying.
Bryan on July 7, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Not only that, agree or disagree with your original post, this isn’t worth your time.
Spirit of 1776 on July 7, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Bryan, there’s nothing wrong with punching someone in the mouth who deserves it. Decrying bigotry in the manner Dan does is intended to put one’s self above it. Topping it off with the implication that others (you) are, is intended to put him above you.
Punch away.
OneEyedJack on July 7, 2007 at 1:03 AM
Just one short, sharp jab under the nose. No need to be sadistic.
OneEyedJack on July 7, 2007 at 1:06 AM
Some people have too much free time. You pretty much nailed him, Bryan.
But what motivated him to light this firecracker in the first place is beyond me. I guess some things are just not meant to be understood.
wccawa on July 7, 2007 at 1:06 AM
Yeah, Bryan, I originally wrote a lesser Dean Esmay, but I figured I’d go full bore, he’s kinda being a dick.
Bad Candy on July 7, 2007 at 1:07 AM
Perhaps Dan Reihl can explain to us how peculiar it is that Musmim males between the ages of 17 and 40 commit all acts of terrorism present and current. Perhaps he can explain how every time a terrorist attack happens those wonderful Muslim nations full of “moderates (like say, Britain)” are at best mute and at worst celebrating in the street.
Musmlims have done absolutely zero to earn any respect. Our leaders should not be wearing hijabs in America if they aren’t Muslims. They want respect? How about they stop fronting for terrorists. How about they stop trying to implement sharia in American cities.
And that goes double for liberals. How dare those sycophants get on a podium about the evils of a supposed Christian theocracy while they say wearing the hijab is “culturally sensitive.” Dan Reihl needs to wake up and stop the self-righteous indignance on this one.
Our leaders shouldn’t be wearing hijabs unless they are Muslims. Period. If Muslims can’t handle seeing a woman’s full hairstyle in America, they must be walking around blind because there’s worst plastered up on the sides of DC buses and buildings.
BKennedy on July 7, 2007 at 1:07 AM
When someone makes an incorrect or brash statement, they should discuss it like an adult. For example, Glenn Beck once made a comment about someone who telephoned him on the air and called him on it, and Beck discussed the issue with whoever it was, then apologized, thereby forging a stronger relationship. THAT is what mature adults do. Whoever is wrong, just say so. I have MORE respect for Beck now, not less. I would have more respect for Riehl, not less, if he just said “oops, sorry, misunderstood, mi bad…” Pride is a blinding emotion.
JustTruth101 on July 7, 2007 at 1:14 AM
And so the Great Rovian Noise Machine exhibits its first cracks.
I know you’re not a bigot Byran. I’m not familiar with Dan, so I won’t comment on him, but he is dead wrong on this assesment.
VolMagic on July 7, 2007 at 1:14 AM
You gotta do what you gotta do. I’ve never heard of Dan before this post, but I really don’t think I want to hear what he has to say from this point on.
I’ve noticed a lot of Conservatives unnecessarily pulling the “you’re a bigot” tactic out of the bag-o-tricks lately and it is pretty weak. I agree…you expect that out of a liberal, not out of someone with their head supposedly screwed on straight.
PBoilermaker on July 7, 2007 at 1:15 AM
*cough*amnesty*cough*
F15Mech on July 7, 2007 at 1:41 AM
That was Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family. Beck had repeated something from the NYT or somewhere else regarding a comment Dobson made about Fred Thompson. Beck didn’t call Dobson first to get the skinny on whether the Dobson quote was accurate or not, so Dobson called up Beck and they had a little discussion. It got a bit heated at times, but Beck did end up apologizing to Dobson.
I’ve travelled to Muslim countries and have even been inside a mosque, and non-Muslim women were not required to cover their heads. Even the Muslim women could be pretty casual about it at times.
Snidely Whiplash on July 7, 2007 at 1:46 AM
Which Muslim countries?
Guardian on July 7, 2007 at 1:57 AM
I would have been fine with Riehl disagreeing with Bryan, but I’m done with conservatives pulling the Bigot/Race Card on their own without a damn good reason. Anyone who pulls the Cards improperly need to be torn to shreds, and Riehl pulling the Bigot Card on Bryan is crap, and he needs to be called on it.
I didn’t tolerate the Amnesty crew doing it, and I’m not gonna tolerate it from Riehl either.
Bad Candy on July 7, 2007 at 1:59 AM
I think Dan’s first post was alright…don’t call attention to the wears unless you do it all the time. I get the arguement. After that…
Those e-mails must have been fun.
sunny on July 7, 2007 at 2:04 AM
I have been to Dan’s webpage a couple of times in the past.
But after reading his comments towards Bryan, I do not think I will be visiting Dan’s site in the future after today.
ColtsFan on July 7, 2007 at 2:07 AM
Aww, come on guys. Play nice. And Riehl out to get real fer cryin’ out loud. Dan, go attack some Islamo-tards. Would ya?
auspatriotman on July 7, 2007 at 2:21 AM
I’d never heard of Riehl before you linked to him in the other thread, and when I read his comment I definitely had the impression that he was at least inferring you are a bigot.
Without knowing anything more about him other than what you said, (that he is a conservative blogger), my impression was that he is probably one who still holds to the popular notion that all religions are equal and that Islam is simply a religion of peace which has been hijacked by extremists. I dismissed his criticism as a manifestation of ignorance.
But if I’m wrong and he understands the political ideology that underpins Islamic terrorism then he is probably just trying to start a flame war in an effort to ride the coat tails of HotAir’s success.
I recommend that you enjoy your vacation. We’ll all be here when you get back. Configure whichever scheduling application you use to remind yourself about Riehl when your vacation is over and then forget about it until then.
FloatingRock on July 7, 2007 at 2:25 AM
In his second post, he starts off by claiming he’s not an islamist apologist and then goes on to parrot all the liberal talking points about the terrorism of today being caused by America’s foreign policy. The guy’s a chump and a relativist.
forged rite on July 7, 2007 at 2:41 AM
Don’t worry brother…the ppl who know you is what counts. Don’t let some smear get you down. Go have a great vacation ( from which I hear you are going to do ). And in the words of some gansta..”Forget aboudit”
lsutiger on July 7, 2007 at 2:45 AM
It’s almost funny after years of playing online games and surfing message boards to see grown “respectable” people picking fights like this on the internet in the same fashion.
My advice to you Bryan would be to ignore him from here on out. It’s pointless and beneath you to answer this hacks accusations. He’s just desperate for a piece of the HA readership and apparently unable to do it by posting legit items worthy of a cross link.
bj1126 on July 7, 2007 at 2:49 AM
I think your inclination to avoid debate, with somebody who half-hazardly throws out the word “bigot” without any substance to back it up, is sound.
On the other hand, based on your performance on the radio today combined with your stated reasoning in the other thread, I think you would waste him in a debate. The only two tactics that I could imagine he could employ would be: one, slurring you, or two, engaging in Dinesh D’Souza style willful blindness.
FloatingRock on July 7, 2007 at 2:53 AM
Sounds like Dan needs to man up and quit acting like a prissy high school drama queen. Or an Edwards. Take your pick.
Enjoy your vacation, Bryan. His ass will still be there when you get back, if it still needs kicking.
ReubenJCogburn on July 7, 2007 at 2:57 AM
(Slightly edited from what I said in Dan’s comments):
Eh, it’s just (stupid) diplomacy.
It still makes me cringe, though. I wonder, during WWII did the women in those positions put on kimonos when they met with Japanese people? I think not. It sorta signifies solidarity. And really, why is the hijab even necessary? Because they don’t want to offend? In THIS country?
News flash to Muslims who would be offended: this isn’t an Islamic nation. It’s multicultural, meaning Muslims need to respect non-Muslims, just as they’re allowed to do their own thing (wear the hijab, form terrorist cells–whoops! Did I say that?). I can see sticking a silly thing on your head in an Islamic country because of the predominant culture, but HERE, in a secular liberal democracy? Um, no.
His example of Bush wearing a yarmulke doesn’t even come close. We aren’t at war with Israel or any Jewish ideology. Is it pandering? Certainly less so than this hijab business!
It sounds to me like Dan didn’t particularly care what the reasons were for groaning at the stupid hijab, preferring instead to assume the worst. I like Dan, but he blew this one big time.
Can’t we all just get along?
/Rodney King
Guardian:
I’d guess Turkey? I was stationed there in the military, and most women didn’t wear the hijab, even in the bassackwards place I was stationed. Obviously, NO American women did, although they did hand out rags to stick on our heads when visiting the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, which is the appropriate time for a non-Muslim to wear a headscarf.
bamapachyderm on July 7, 2007 at 2:58 AM
The first exchange may have been reasonable enough, but I can’t imagine what possessed Dan Riehl to write:
mikeyboss on July 7, 2007 at 3:19 AM
He seriously wrote that? Dan’s already lost the debate, then. Why have another one?
FloatingRock on July 7, 2007 at 3:48 AM
This is really stupid… What is up with Riehl? And I don’t want to drag up old stuff, but back in my earlier blog reading days I believe I recall a spat with him and Malkin, no? Wasn’t he the one who got all pissed when she linked to a file he sent her a direct link to, then he replaced the file with some porn or something to get back at her, instead of dealing with his problem (that he caused) by emailing her like an adult?
Anyway, Riehl is being ridiculously dishonest here and it’s just really obnoxious. He was just shy of outright calling you a bigot, but certainly went further than implying it. For him to deny that is just stupid, and makes me wonder if he could really just be that stubborn… or if he’s fishing for a traffic bump. I’m too lazy to check right now, but I think he already gets decent traffic, though I’m sure it’s no where near HA’s… I would hate to think that he’s doing this for the traffic, but what else could motive him to be so dishonest about this issue? Not the real issue, I mean this whole idea of whether or not he called you a bigot.
I mean, he’s dead wrong when trying to downplay the one thing that ties these terrorists together – ISLAM!!! But we can’t even have that debate after he did what he did. And his complaint that you (Bryan) haven’t complained about administration officials wearing Yarmulkes is the stupidest thing he’s said yet. I didn’t realize that we had a jihad of Jews flying planes in to buildings and blowing up children on buses. We’re at a war with radical Islam (or what I would argue is real Islam), not radical Judaism Dan. Wake up.
RightWinged on July 7, 2007 at 3:58 AM
BTW… does anyone know if Riehl is a Hitchens fan? That might help in getting to the bottom of this lunacy.
RightWinged on July 7, 2007 at 3:59 AM
Not much of a Hitchens fan if he is. I can’t envision Hitchens actually arguing that saying “The administration shouldn’t pander to the CAIR types right now” is bigotry. The thing about Hitchens is that he may view all religion as horrible but uh, he doesn’t try to make exception for Islam. He thinks they hate women because they force the women to cover themselves as a sign of submission. Whether or not he’s right, I highly doubt he’d try to argue that saying that is bigotry. Since he says it.
He’d also never just say “Oh, he’s just a bigot” … I mean come on. When have you ever heard a Hitchens argument that wasn’t 250 words long?
apollyonbob on July 7, 2007 at 4:56 AM
Don’t think Turkey is a good example. They are the target of Muslims who view Turkey as too seculer, i.e. not extreme enough.
How ’bout Iran?
oldleprechaun on July 7, 2007 at 7:06 AM
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant (or I wasn’t clear) apollyonbob. I didn’t mean to imply Hitchens would take the position that anyone is a bigot for comments like Bryan’s, etc. etc. I was talking about Riehl’s comments that try to lump all religions together on this matter, and whine that Bryan doesn’t complain when pols don other religious garb like yarmulkes. As you know, Hitchens does attempt to smear all religions and tends to lump them together as all having basically the same problems.
So anyway, I was wondering if Riehl was a Hitchens fan based on an entirely different part of his (Riehl’s) comments than you thought I meant. Not the bigot part, but the part where he acts as if you can equate Christianity and Judaism with Islam, when we’re talking about a war with radical Muslims.
RightWinged on July 7, 2007 at 7:39 AM
Who’s Dan Riehl?
jaime on July 7, 2007 at 7:43 AM
Bryan, what is your definition of a bigot?
SoulGlo on July 7, 2007 at 7:57 AM
Bryan, you have been Chavezed.
How can you argue with a guy who clearly believes Islam is not the source of terrorist ideology?
Valiant on July 7, 2007 at 8:11 AM
Why is everyone getting bent out of shape over accusations of prejudice and bigotry? Those are perfectly fine sentiments, made taboo by the PC police. I’ve spent a lifetime deciding what is right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral, etc. Like any right-thinking person, I discriminate in favor of things that match my standards.
These days, Islam doesn’t. Other religions are far less bellicose and intolerant. Western civilization, for all it’s faults, is superior to others. The US is a better place to live than most other countries. Urban black hip-hop culture is a dead-end. I could go on and on. So could you.
JiangxiDad on July 7, 2007 at 8:21 AM
The truth is, we are all bigoted in some way. Ask Chris Rock, he does a hilarious routine about the difference between n-word and black people. Most countries/cultures have various classes or cast. Though they are the same color and religion they are prejudiced against even themselves.
As an American I have the right of free thought and speech, I can be as bigoted or blasphemous as I want. I am here to tell you that I am bigoted against ultra bigot organizations like the kkk and black panthers.
I am extremely intolerant of a cult that by virtue of it’s very doctrine is commanded to behead me and my family. Since it is commanded in the Koran to slaughter me I will put all muslims in one of to categories:
1.Active jihadist, head chopping group
or
2. Sleeper cell Group
TheSitRep on July 7, 2007 at 8:26 AM
Would it have been bigoted (against Germans) to write a disapproving Op-Ed about Jesse Owens had he purposely come in last place in each of his events in the ’36 Olympics? Or if, for instance, the USG had requested all Jewish American competitors in said event wear uniforms with bright yellow Stars of David?
12thman on July 7, 2007 at 8:31 AM
ps: have a great vacation Bryan.
12thman on July 7, 2007 at 8:32 AM
I have never heard of Dan Riehl, but I know that when a person resorts to personal attacks, he has nothing left with which to defend his position.
The people that know you, know are not a bigot. Dan Riehl has made such a negative first impression on me, he will have to publicly apologize to you before that impression will be assuaged.
csdeven on July 7, 2007 at 8:41 AM
While the bigotry that comes to mind when we think of bigotry is wrong, once the politically correct religious purity police start enforcing the law, the “bigot” becomes a Saudi women being whipped for exposing her ankle.
We should remember always that racism and bigotry aren’t the worse thing we can do. I wish I could send the PC to the killing fields of Cambodia until they concede my point, since they seem incapable of the moral imagination to conduct the thought experiment themselves.
If an ideology or religion makes 10% of its adherents into murderous thugs and terrorists, how relevant would it be if the other 90% become the nicest people on the planet? In an technological advanced era, can’t we say such an ideology or religion represents a clear and present danger?
thuja on July 7, 2007 at 8:50 AM
Bryan, my late Grandfather use to say the only way to win an argument among friends is to take the high road (as you have done). Let them blow off steam, calmly reiterate your point, shake hands and then walk away. If they have good character, in a day or two, they will realize they may have gone too far and apologize.
PS- it’s been rainy in Orlando, I’m sure if you’re heading that way, the weather will clear… relax!
Zorro on July 7, 2007 at 8:53 AM
The one thing I do like about folks on the right side of the issues at least we are not in lock-step like the left. We are free to express our own opinions derived from the facts as we know them, but most of us can be swayed when other facts are presented by those we disagree with.
But I am still not impressed with someone calling me a racist (when it is a religion not a race). I will not and can not believe in this so called religion, but I also feel the same way about the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). I don’t buy it, but I also don’t hate them because of their religious believes (why it is called faith). Then again they are not going around strapping bombs to themselves, flying aircraft into buildings, and killing as many people as possible or trying to subjugate those that disagree with their belief system.
I proudly wear the title of bigot the Bush administration awarded us for daring to defy their “Grand Bargain.”
KC-135A on July 7, 2007 at 9:33 AM
Bryan, why not debate him? You’re intelligent and know where you stand on an issue, and the facts behind it.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, I’m just a lowly commenter, but it seems a little Clintonesque. He was wrong, and you called him out on it. He then proceeded to attack you, and you gave a response, and now you’re not going to fight it.
Channel the Bush, man. Channel the Bush. But, have a great vacation.
amerpundit on July 7, 2007 at 9:37 AM
I was going to say Turkey too. Some parts of NE Afghanistan is kind of casual about following the dictates of Islam – but privately. I might have someone offer me Johnny Walker Blue Label (it really hurt refuse – damn you, G.O. #1!) and have a satellite dish where they get 500 pr0n channels – but out in public, nothing like uncovered heads or such.
major john on July 7, 2007 at 9:38 AM
I can hear Michelle now: “Don’t make me pull this blogosphere over!”.
amerpundit on July 7, 2007 at 9:41 AM
In fighting.. we all have become soooooooooooo immuned…85% are tuned out… 10% follow somewhat..that leaves 5% who actually care to follow this stuff at all..I would relax and like the Italian’s say, “Forget About It”..have a nice vacation..
Legions on July 7, 2007 at 9:42 AM
Oh, never mind my first comment. I can see you did fight it.
amerpundit on July 7, 2007 at 9:45 AM
I’m looking forward to when conservative supporters of Ron Paul can be treated with respect and dignity on this blog! It’s a new day!
rho on July 7, 2007 at 9:52 AM
Dan who?
Metro on July 7, 2007 at 9:56 AM
Bah, who cares, the only time I ever go to Riehl World View is when Hot Air or LGF link to it anyway. Not much of a ‘side’ to worry about.
On the other hand, it is of course an important issue and publicly debunking it might help win over some people that sit on the fence on this. I.e. on the issue of female government officials donning hijabs to ‘show respect’ to ‘a religion’. We know why this is a load of bull, but a lot of people apparently don’t.
Obviously some of those are on the right, otherwise Dan Riehl wouldn’t have posted as he did. So maybe it’s worth debating …
then again *yawn* … why do I suddenly feel so tired?
Aylios on July 7, 2007 at 10:04 AM
The Dude abides. Dan sounds like he might be a dork.
I don’t have time to comment further as I am off to Melbourne apply for a job.
there it is on July 7, 2007 at 10:07 AM
Who is this guy? I know I’ve never heard of him. Is he just fishing for some hits? I clicked on a link in Bryan’s story and found this:
“…we shouldn’t ignore the complex nature underlying its draw for some Muslims. It is not only the religion, otherwise every Muslim would be a terrorist…” ???
Uh, that ain’t bizactly how logic works. Debate himself indeed…
JWS on July 7, 2007 at 10:24 AM
If Dan Riehl says something in a forest but no one is there to listen, did he really say anything?
Life’s too short. The modern media has confused what a bigot is anyway when it comes to religion. If you simply say someone is wrong to believe the way they do you’re a bigot. NO, you’re just a logical human being. If the 2 billion Christians on earth believe that rejection of Christ sends you to hell then they’re not being bigots, they’re just believing in the words of Christ.
A Christian will do anything including give his live to keep others from hell. A Muslim will give his life to send you to hell.
Mojave Mark on July 7, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Why so sensitive about being a bigot? I’m a bigot and I dare say that everyone is. To use the more technical term we are all prejudiced in that we pre-judge language, symbols, signs, etc as we interpret their meaning. The question is about the content of our prejudice not the mere fact of it.
If I see a man in a swastika (or Che, Mao, hammer-and-sickle) t-shirt I immediately make certain assumptions about him, his beliefs and personality. I immediately do not like this man because of that symbol. I believe him either to be a supporter of terrible crimes or an irredeemable idiot. In any case I do not like him or want to associate with him. This is inevitable and indeed desirable.
Hans-Georg Gadamer, in his book Truth and Method, deemed prejudice to be inextricably bound with the act of interpreting, that is thinking, itself. Here’s a quote courtesy of Wikipedia:
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy calls this Gadamer’s “rehabilitation of prejudice”. Without prejudice we would be paralyzed by the inability to learn from our experiences, either as individuals or communities.
The key distinction between prejudice (bigotry) and racism is that bigotry in this sense is a pre-judgment of symbols with interpretable meaning, symbols that are chosen by actors who could have chosen other symbols. Racism is the assignment of meaning to characteristics that are immutable and unchangeable and unchosen. I cannot help or change the tone of my skin, therefore it is incoherent for others to assign meaning to it. However, I can and do chose the symbols I attach to myself (both physically and metaphorically). Therefore it is not only proper that others interpret those symbols through their pre-judgment; indeed it is impossible for them not to do so.
Of course the meaning of symbols is context-dependent. One of the best examples of this is in the boxing documentary When We Were Kings. George Foreman brought his German shepherd with him to Zaire for the fight. In America and the West these dogs are symbols of strength, loyalty, etc. To the Zairians, they are symbols of colonial oppression since the dogs were used by the Belgian imperial powers against the indigenous people. A more recent example was Cameron Diaz carrying a Mao bag to Peru. The same symbols have different meanings in different times and places.
Were the Zairians wrong to be bigoted against Foreman and his German shepherd or the Peruvians against Diaz the apparent Maoist? Hardly. Then why exactly is it wrong for me to be bigoted against the hijad or niqab? I interpret these freely chosen symbols through my experiences and pre-judge them to be symbols of aggression against non-Muslims; symbols of a lust for domination; symbols of misogyny; symbolic claims by Islamisys upon physical space in my homeland.
Note that I am not a bigot against Muslims because I don’t know who they are among the anonymous faces the public. Only when someone choses to announce through symbols their belief do my prejudices kick in.
I do not apologize for being a bigot against people who wear symbols of hostility toward me and my beliefs. I am a bigot. So what?
Thomas the Wraith on July 7, 2007 at 10:28 AM
This kerfuffle too shall pass. Well-handled. Not debate-worthy.
digitalintrigue on July 7, 2007 at 10:29 AM
conservative supporters of Ron Paul
All three of them that is.
Purple Avenger on July 7, 2007 at 10:50 AM
That’s because Ron Paul supporters are cranks.
Bad Candy on July 7, 2007 at 11:06 AM
& smack him down you did. lol
lobosan5 on July 7, 2007 at 11:22 AM
Hey, I disagreed with your post, but I didn’t think you were coming from a bigoted angle. And your update to the post, quoting Ayan Ali (sp?), made me think more than twice about the symbolism of the hijab in the eyes of Islamofascists.
Oops, was using that word bigoted of me?
I have vaguely heard of Dan Riehl. I don’t think you have to concede on his “untalented” charge just to disarm the debate. Does Riehl have anywhre near the traffic of your posts? And as I’ve written before, some of your posts go way beyond blog-posts and become really well-crafted essays. Whether I agree or disagree with your opionions (usually agree), you are a very talented writer.
Enjoy your vacation,
Anton on July 7, 2007 at 11:44 AM
change the subject to candidates… ok..it’s been noted to me that Rep. Tom Tancredo is a single issue candidate..I say good,, cause most of the other’s will get confused after about 1 1/2 issues…and I’ll give them the extra half just for the sake of argument…Enforce The Laws, and secure the DAM borders and most everything else will fall into place with a well staffed cabinet….Tancredo I believe will be the only candidate that within a few months of taking office will begin to address this issue..The rest of the candidates..Like I say too many issues,their not going to focus in on anyone issue and will be like Bush and accomplish NOTHING..At least lets not just push this man to the back..he’s been on the front line of this before most of them..at the end of the day getting one issue..the biggest issue facing our nation will be solved. And I’m sure Tom has felt the heat from our well oiled groups of elistist, yet he will never give up..
Legions on July 7, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Thomas the Wraith on July 7, 2007 at 10:28 AM
I agree with most of Thomas for most his long post, but I think his logic here is in error. The reason too intense racism and homophobia are evil is that race and sexual orientation have no moral relevance. People of different races and different sexual orientations are identical in their tendencies towards good and evil behavior. If there existed a race of blue people who were genetically predisposed to frequent outburst of violence, it would be coherent to assign meaning to blue skin color. Indeed, we should, despite the blue skin color being unchosen.
thuja on July 7, 2007 at 11:55 AM
Erudition on parade.
TheSitRep on July 7, 2007 at 12:22 PM
Bahrain, Kuwait, and Iraq (possibly Quatar). That is 4 of the 5 Muslim countries I have “visited”. The fifth, Saudi Arabia, is very strict.
I remember seeing the first short skirt (short, black and very tight) in over 7 months in Bahrain. Kuwait is very Westernized and I do not see the people ever going back to living in tents.
Claimsratt on July 7, 2007 at 12:31 PM
Bigotry and prejudice are not one in the same. Bigotry is intolerance toward anything that is different then oneself. So, a Christian bigot would be intolerant toward Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, etc…
That said, Thomas’ Nazi analogy holds. There’s nothing wrong with intolerance toward those who believe in doing harmful things to you and others. Unless you’re a moral equivocating idiot, that is.
Pablo on July 7, 2007 at 1:01 PM
This is probably coming at the worst possible time too; after that whole immigration fiasco, we need to get united as much as possible if we don’t want to listen to a Clinton inauguration speech.
Sorry about all this happening to you, Bryan. I appreciate you trying to keep it classy as you go to cleaners to get the mud off your jacket
Viewtifulgare on July 7, 2007 at 1:03 PM
If insisting that members of our government don’t abase themselves and acknowledge tacitly the Islamist belief that women are inferior to men by covering their heads (for goodness sake), makes you a bigot.
Then I’m a bigot too.
Martin on July 7, 2007 at 1:50 PM
I’m looking forward to the day when Ron Paul supporters stop spamming my damn polls! A new day!
amerpundit on July 7, 2007 at 1:58 PM
Calling people bigots … or racists … or whatever has become soooooooo tiresome, especially when it’s directed at Christians or white folks. The world is chock full of bigots and racists who are anything other than Christian or white. No one likes their country overrun by a people looking to reinvent their homeland in theirs … no one likes people who expect you to respect their beliefs but are disrespectful of yours. It human nature to dislike that which threatens not only your way of life, but your life as well.
If calling people bigots makes someone feel good because they thinks it’s makes them morally superior … then they’re either denying how they truly feel or they’re blind to what’s going on around them. People who cry bigot are by rule, usually the biggest bigots out there.
I couldn’t care less if people who are no more than fools call me a bigot. I hate muslims who come to this country and isolate themselves, then expect us to change our ways and our laws to accomodate them and their “religion”. Carry your ass wherever it came from. For those muslims that were born here and feel that way … carry your ass as well. For those Mexicans and other immigrants who feel they “deserve” to become citizens while they wave the Mexican flag and demand everything be in Spanish … carry your ass back across the border. You’re neither needed or wanted. I’m sick to death of bending over backwards for every group playing psedo-victim. If you want to be here then become American, don’t expect us to become Mexican or muslim. To expect Americans to cater to you is … well, being a bigot.
darwin on July 7, 2007 at 2:21 PM
Removed Dan from my Wizz RSS list awhile back. I’d had just about enough of his nitpickin’ every issue to death.
leepro on July 7, 2007 at 2:27 PM
Guilty as charge. This is one of my hot button issues and I’ve spend some time thinking about it.
There’s one other point I wanted to make regarding the hijab. Turkey, a nation all but entirely composed of Muslims, does not allow, by law, its civil servants to wear the hijab. The hijab is seen as a symbol of Islamist political power. Indeed this view is state policy. There was a scandal earlier this year at the mere possibility of the president’s wife wearing one. Are the Turks anti-Muslim? Of course not. But they are anti-Islamist bigots, as they should be. The Islamists have a political agenda that is hostile to Turkish secularism and freedoms. Are they supposed to sit by a watch the symbolic expansion of Islamist power because to oppose it would be bigotry? What a silly idea.
Two cheers for bigotry.
Thomas the Wraith on July 7, 2007 at 2:42 PM
This was hardly bigotry. Dan’s looking for a fight for some reason, maybe his blogs getting some lefty traffic and it’s time to go “moderate”? Nothing brings in the Ad clicks like “moderation”. (which explains my poor performance!)
I once wrote something semi critical of a stance MM made, and got two days of heavy lefty traffic and compliments. Maybe Dan’s feeling lonely and wanting some hot feminazi action.
Rob Taylor on July 7, 2007 at 2:50 PM
You Vulcan bigot! (Star Trek reference.)
I stopped reading Reihl after he posted about a young man who had received a 10 year or so prison sentence because he received oral sex from a girl two years younger than him who was a minor. I, and a few others thought the sentence overly harsh. Reasonable people might disagree about this but Reihl said he deserved what he got and anyone who disagreed with Reihl was soft on crime.
From that I took that Reihl does not handle disagreement very well and there are better blogs out there.
As someone who has inadvertantly offended people on this blog it doesn’t take much to realize you are wrong when you do reflect on what you have said and them apologizing is very easy. I think he owes you this.
Bill C on July 7, 2007 at 3:12 PM
It seems that the disease of Cultural Relativism is spreading to the Conservatives.. Is there a cure?
windchaser73 on July 7, 2007 at 3:38 PM
This proves a number of things. One, Christians and Conservatives and Republicans are not the same thing and it’s incorrect to lump the appellations together as if they were. A Christian is a religious identification. Republican is a political identification. These two categories are narrower than Conservative. Conservative is often described as preserving traditional patterns. What the patterns are depends on the culture. A conservative communist would be inclined to make decisions to maintain the Communist structure, but here, a Conservative American would be inclined to preserve the democratic structure as found in the Constitution and reject alterations to it.
This is more proof that the Left continues to deliberately play with words to muddy these distinctions in order to confuse to sway arguments to their “Liberal” goals which no longer means what it did forty years ago, but “Progressive” or “Socialist.”
So the problem of “bigot” and “racist.” Both terms are being used incorrectly against people, with the intent to cast aspersions on the points made by observers of human activities.
The correct word for Bryan is “DISCERNING.”
The smart person discerns the nature of an enemy and determines a set of tests to determine whether a particular person is a threat or not. A bigot does not discern, just lumps. Isn’t it bigotry to lump all religious people into one amorphous group? Isn’t it bigotry to assume that a sharp observation is unfounded based on factors that have nothing to do with the topic at hand? Isn’t it bigotry to assume all members of a particular population all do one thing, all behave the same? Isn’t it bigotry to ignore strong cultural practices that produce easily identifiable trends?
If all people around you are of the same race and culture, then you must then look for other characteristics to determine whether an individual is a trustworthy type or a crook. It is not bigotry to make that determination. It’s plain common sense survival.
naliaka on July 7, 2007 at 4:18 PM
Like other comments I’ve read, the only other times I’ve been to his site, were to follow links as well. In my opinion this guy is trying to build up traffic. If you can, block it out and have fun on vacation. When you come back, if he’s still at it, do what ya have to.
PowWow on July 7, 2007 at 4:41 PM
naliaka … well said.
darwin on July 7, 2007 at 5:00 PM
bigoted |ˈbigətid| adjective obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one’s own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions : a bigoted group of reactionaries. • expressing or characterized by prejudice and intolerance : a thoughtless and bigoted article.
I know I am correct regarding a “religion” and a people that treat women like sh*t and openly seek to rule over all real religions. I can handle the bigot label…
JWS on July 7, 2007 at 5:14 PM
This is a bit late but a few months ago Amy Kellog would wear a hijab all the time when reporting for FOX from Iran I think. I sent a email to either Cavuto or Gibson at the time asking why. I told them I could understand it if she does it when interviewing the other side but it reaaly puts me off when she does it when reporting back to us.
SIJ6141 on July 7, 2007 at 5:45 PM
1.Active jihadist, head chopping groupor
2. Sleeper cell Group
TheSitRep on July 7, 2007 at 8:26 AM
I am right ther with you on these points.
SIJ6141 on July 7, 2007 at 5:54 PM
The word bigot, used as a pejorative, implies that there is something morally wrong with having a negative view of a certain race or religion. When one reflexively feels the need to deny the charge of “bigot” one is allowing the accuser to frame the issue in his PC realm. That is the realm where all races and religions are equal.
They are not. History and common sense, say otherwise. For one to have a negative view of islam is to have a positive, humanistic view of everything else as islam is the scourge of humanity and all that is decent. The charge of bigot in this case, should be worn like a badge of honor and not denied as if being such was wrong. Being a bigot in this case is the only rational and humane view to have.
Seeing those Bush women wearing a headscarf in honor of a religion founded by a pedophile, murderer, rapist, robber with a book of hate as its bible, is to see those people bow to evil itself.
What this supposedly conservative blogger does is partake of the one disingenuous intellectualism that is undermining not only our culture and our world, but civilization’s battle with terror, more than any other force … moral relativism.
Moral relativism will be the end of us all if we don’t start making value judgements about what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil. And today, to do so, garners not accolades, but the term “bigot”.
No doubt, this “conservative” is no ally. This is a Bushite, a rino, a man that does not understand the basic principles of conservatism, much less the basic tenets of islam. Have no compunction, Bryan, about distancing yourself from conservatives like that.
jihadwatcher on July 7, 2007 at 5:56 PM
Dan, who?
SilverStar830 on July 7, 2007 at 6:48 PM
I had never formed a strong opinion of Dan, though I recall reading some decent posts of his in the past. I think that, sadly, it’s really just a promotional tactic. This site is at or near the top and I would bet that the spike in traffic created for any site you link to is significant. I have seen many second and third tier bloggers pick fights with better know and more widely read sites purley to get noticed. Since I haven’t been to Dan’s site in some time, perhaps others have moved him off their “daily read” list too. This might be an attempt to inflate a flagging readership……
I’m just sayin’
TBinSTL on July 7, 2007 at 7:31 PM
Bryan,
Lord knows I’ve had my differences with your opinions before, but you are exactly right about this one. I sent the following titled “Kneeling Before the Queen” to both the White House and the State Department:
Dear Poor, misguided, knuckle-dragging boobs,
I just saw a picture of top Bush administration officials recently withe the caption:
“Senior White House staff members attend the rededication ceremony of The Islamic Center in Washington June 27, 2007. From L-R are: Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism Frances Townsend, White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten, and Under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs Karen Hughes.”
Such powerful women! Such proud members of American society sporting such important titles. If only they looked as important as their titles instead of like pathetic, clownish infidels trying to ….to do what? Exactly? Make us all vomit?
OK, do a fellow Republican a favor. For the remaining time in office, cut the politically correct crap, stop bending over backwards to look more stupid than you already do, embarrassing the whole country. You are officials of the government of the United States of America and you do NOT bend your knee to the Queen of England and you DO NOT wear veils, headscarves, hijab, or burqas when conducting official government business. Your little field trip down to the Islamic Center was official government business, however ridiculous that business was.
Thank you
netherman79 on July 7, 2007 at 8:20 PM
So,
.
.
.
how about this weather, hot enough for ya?
lowandslow on July 8, 2007 at 1:09 AM
Theodore Dalrymple in the LA Times on this very topic at the top of HT links today:
The spread of “rational prejudice” in Britain.
Thomas the Wraith on July 8, 2007 at 11:35 AM
Oh, good–now Dan Riehl can get his frilly panties in a wad over Dalrymple too.
ReubenJCogburn on July 8, 2007 at 1:07 PM