I believe my opinions, once the borders are secured, might change to the point that a guest worker program might set well with me if they don’t take any job a single American will do for an honest wage and are properly regulated, not any drain on our system and have to go home after a set period of time.

We MAY even be able to come to an agreement about a path to citizenship or residency status for those who have broken our laws and entered here illegally after the borders are secured and illegal immigration is stopped but never with permanent residency handed out after a stupidly short one business day background check or automatic pass.

In short, “We The People” will debate all of those things after our government makes good on their promises and duty to secure our nations borders. The job now is to show these Senators and the President that they work for the people not big business.

“WHEN my government has shown good faith by securing our national borders and processing the masses of LEGAL immigrants, we can discuss WHETHER we need a guest worker program and how to implement it to maintain our national security.”

I’m not opposed to a pathway to citizenship for illegals. The original question I was responding to suggested a time frame of about 3 years. I am not advocating anybody cutting to the front of the line.

Please take a deep breath, go to your “happy place” for a moment, then come back and be civil.

Thank you.

Why the name calling?

As for me, nope, no opposition to citizenship. In the interim, I tend toward “Call attention to yourself (eg, domestic violence, drunk driving, robbery, etc) and get deported”. If you’re here a while, behave, learn English, support your family, then fine. Welcome, new Citizen!

And you, are an idiot. What about all the people that have, and are currently, pursuing immigration legally? Gee, I guess it sucks to be them…huh? People like you are the first ones to squeal when someone cuts the line in from of them, or has 16 items in the express checkout. Doofus!

“Is there anyone on this site that would be opposed to a path way to citizenship if the border was proven secured for say a period of 3 years?”

As for me, nope, no opposition to citizenship. In the interim, I tend toward “Call attention to yourself (eg, domestic violence, drunk driving, robbery, etc) and get deported”. If you’re here a while, behave, learn English, support your family, then fine. Welcome, new Citizen!

Hitler, Stalin, Saddam are three reasons…billions killed for thinking “wrong” are another

What?

We already have laws on the books to build a border fence and hire more Border Guards. Our Gov’t hasn’t found the will to do it yet. Do you really think that a 700-plus-page bill, covering dozens of topics, is really going to bring us border security THIS TIME? The purpose of this bill, pure and simple, is to “fix” immigration by calling 12 million illegals “legal” after 24 hours. Pls note that illegal jihadists can just go to their nearest immigration center and swear they’re here as refugees and bingo, they’re in. The immigration system is YEARS backlogged as it is, now we’re going to properly “vet” 12 million people within 24 hours of application? This bill stinks to high heaven.

WHEN my government has shown good faith by securing our national borders and processing the masses of LEGAL immigrants, we can discuss WHETHER we need a guest worker program and how to implement it to maintain our national security. UNTIL we have reasonably secure borders, there’s no point in amnesty or registration or legalization, because there’s another 10-20 millions waiting to line up at the border and sneak across to force the NEXT amnesty. We gave a “one-time amnesty” back in 1986, we got assurances the border would be fixed, and now look: 20 years later, same-ol, same-ol’. I will NOT trust my government’s promises to fix border security again (“Hey! this time we’ve got triggers!”). We need to fix the borders NOW. PERIOD. NON-NEGOTIABLE.

Granted those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

There are 4 groups in this immigration dilema.

The illegals
the government
The legal immigrants
The citizens of the USA

But we can reduce it to two:

the government and illegals are group A
The citizens and legal immigrants in group B

When you do that you see what is needed to solve the problem.

This Bill wants to continue to have group A Screw the other guy.

Group B wants the Tit for Tat. If this is not given, it will soon be that Group B will require the Screw the other guy option and society as we know it will soon fall apart.

Being on the wrong end of that problem on occasion I’m will to cut him some slack with grammer and spelling. It is his arguement that is flawed. The flaw is not his intelligence it is his wisdom.

unseen on June 27, 2007 at 12:45 PM

I have no problem cutting people slack for misspelling words. However, I tend to make an issue of it when those same people call others “dumb.”

That is what the base is doing to the GOP right now. We are not irrational in our anger. We are in fact acting very rational.

unseen on June 27, 2007 at 2:24 PM

Thanks… interesting read… I’d seen the Prisoner’s Dilema before…

Problem with the analogy is that there is STILL a set of rules set up to make your choices in…

In other words.. if I do A, and he does B, then this is the result… there is a higher authority enforcing the consequence (rules)…

Here we have a situation where the higher authority is not enforcing the rules evenly… in other words, I’m prisoner B, but no matter what I do (legal or illegal) I get to win… and prisoner A (the taxpayer?) still pays the price…

Now, if this game is played one time, the winning strategy invariably is to Screw the Other Guy. If he doesn’t screw you, you get off free. If he does, you serve two years. But if you didn’t, and he decided to screw you – ten years. No one wants to risk that. Screw the Other Guy is the only smart position, and when the game is run thousands of times on computers it comes out the very clear winner.

But! What happens if the game is played again and again, against the same person? Does Screw the Other Guy continue to be the best strategy?

It does not!

The best strategy for a repeating game (called the Iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma) is not Screw The Other Guy, and — surprisingly at first glance — it’s not Always Cooperate With The Other Guy, either.

The winning strategy is Tit-for-Tat. That is, you do to the guy what he did to you last turn. If he cooperated, you cooperate. If he screwed you, you screw him back. Over thousands and millions of computer runs, using every strategy from complete aggression to complete forgiveness, Tit-for-Tat “wins” every time – that is, it results in the least jail time for you.

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/

It is different between different countries but for the USA. It starts here:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I read an article on Eject!EJect!Eject!.com that explained criminal game theory. It really explained what we have going on here. I would recommned the essay to all.

And the problem with lethal force is………???

Romeo13 on June 27, 2007 at 2:04 PM

2. Use eminent domain to Federalize 10 1 mile of border (except for towns) along the border, and make it a military reservation.

I could go for that……….

doriangrey on June 27, 2007 at 2:09 PM

I’ve had too much military training… A motiviated in shape person can get across 1 mile way too rapidly for anyone near to respond… I’m 48 years old and can still do a single mile in under 6 minutes… in military Ops, distance gives you the time you need to react… especially if you do NOT want to use lethal force.

It would actualy be interesting to find out how much of the land on the border the US government already owns… bet its a bunch…

Everyone’s got their BVDs in a wad over steps 2-52, though.

2. Use eminent domain to Federalize 10 1 mile of border (except for towns) along the border, and make it a military reservation.

I could go for that……….

what bothers me is that it is the governments fault these laws are being broken. When you do not enforce a law it becomes irrelevant. In that circumstance who should pay. The people not enforcing the law or the ones not following it. Isn’t law and order a function of both? If both groups agree not to follow it is it still a law?

unseen on June 27, 2007 at 1:47 PM

Question… what then is the social compact between government and citizens?

Right now, it is against company policy at Home Depot to even call the cops if they see someone shoplifting (in fact they fired a couple of guys over this policy)… I was in Home Depot day before yesterday… but I still didn’t steal… Why? basic respect for law and order, societal training, and basic idea of right and wrong…. getting caught was never part of the issue…

I aggree that our Federal government has really let us down on this issue… but these people are STILL knowingly breaking the law… and I for one don’t beleive they should be rewarded for it…

Ok I can get behind most of that list.

I would start with cutting off all aid and money transfers to Mexico until they control their side of the border.

Those that abject to the wall near their property should be on the hook for a percentage of all costs the illegals cause to the American citizens.

Not sure about military on the border. Would rather beef up the patrol and build a wall but if we must, we must.