Tunguska crater found?
posted at 9:47 pm on June 26, 2007 by Bryan
Here’s something you didn’t know and probably won’t care about: Before starting up Hot Air with the divine Mrs. M and Allahpundit I worked for the Hubble Space Telescope project, and among my last assignments there I produced a multimedia show about the Tunguska event. As those things usually go, I had to write a script about the 1908 event, in which something big exploded over a remote region of Russia and flattened about 800 acres square miles of woods. Over the course of writing the script I researched the event extensively. By the end of it, I had become convinced that the thing that exploded was probably a comet that grazed into the atmosphere and detonated due to friction. But it could have been a porous asteroid too. Basically, it had to be fairly large but also fairly light, since it didn’t leave a crater but did leave a very large area of obvious devastation.
The problem with that conclusion is, it may have left a crater.
Italian researchers now think they’ve found a smoking gun: The 164-foot-deep Lake Cheko, located just 5 miles northwest of the epicenter of destruction.
“When we looked at the bottom of the lake, we measured seismic waves reflecting off of something,” said Giuseppe Longo, a physicist at the University of Bologna in Italy and co-author of the study. “Nobody has found this before. We can only explain that and the shape of the lake as a low-velocity impact crater.”
—
“Expeditions in the 1960s concluded the lake was not an impact crater, but their technologies were limited,” Longo said. With the advent of better sonar and computer technologies, he explained, the lake took shape.
Going a step further, Longo’s team dove to the bottom and took 6-foot core samples, revealing fresh mud-like sediment on top of “chaotic deposits” beneath. Still, Longo explained the samples are inconclusive of a meteorite impact.
If it left a crater, it probably wasn’t a comet. The Deep Impact mission slammed into a comet a couple of years ago (yeah, I was tangentially involved in that too–I was at Hubble’s office on earth when it was used to spy the impact’s results, and I helped get those results to the outside world as fast as possible) and found that the comet that it punched, Tempel 1, was very light and fluffy, like a big ball of talcum powder. That’s probably too insubstantial to leave much of a crater, if any at all. So that would make an asteroid the more likely illegal alien to have smashed into rural Russia.
As for my multimedia show, for all I know it’s still playing in museums and planeteriums around the world. And if these guys are right about the crater, I was probably wrong about what caused it. But I wrote the show loosely enough, so I should be covered. It could probably use an update though.
Update: Down in the comments, I mentioned a very good book I read a couple of years ago on the subject of comet and asteroid impacts etc, but couldn’t think of the title. I racked my brain and came up with it — Rain of Iron and Ice, by John S. Lewis. Great book. Very scary computer modeling in the appendix.









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Took them long enough. Sheesh.
JayHaw Phrenzie on June 26, 2007 at 9:54 PM
So when do the Tripods start unearthing themselves and raining down destruction?
Dudley Smith on June 26, 2007 at 9:55 PM
That event has always been an interest of mine. I guess we’ll have to wait for deeper core samples to be sure.
Zorro on June 26, 2007 at 9:55 PM
The site is so remote that no scientists even visited it until about 20 years after the explosion. The famous photos were taken during that expedition. By then, Communism was also in the way. It impeded the investigation quite a bit too, over its 75 years in power. Science would have been better served if the thing had chosen to explode over rural Canada, but it didn’t.
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 9:59 PM
Word of advice: if you see Tim Robbins waving you into a basement for safety, keep running.
Doctor Zero on June 26, 2007 at 9:59 PM
That’s pretty cool Bryan, that must have been one amazing toy to work with.
The Deep Impact mission was the most important thing NASA has done in 30 years, in my opinion.
You probably remember the details Bryan. What was it, like three hours from hitting St. Petersburg or something instead? I always wonder how history would’ve changed had this struck a large population center.
I say we figure out how to do something about the next inevitable Tunguska before we worry about camping out at Mars. Yet another thing Bush has disappointed me about.
Tman on June 26, 2007 at 10:05 PM
Big Boomah!
Neo on June 26, 2007 at 10:07 PM
Bryan,
Help me out here…
I know the difference between a comet and asteroid (as much as a person who never worked at NASA can).
Can a comet (that grazed into the atmosphere and detonated due to friction) really cause that much damage on the ground?
If so that is very cool (in a awestruck sort of way).
F15Mech on June 26, 2007 at 10:09 PM
I have to agree with Tman. Very cool Bryan. Some of the pictures out of the Hubble are just amazing. We’ve come a long way with both terrestrial and space imagery.
Tuari on June 26, 2007 at 10:10 PM
It was 4 hrs and 47 minutes from removing St. Petersburg from the face of the earth. When and where it did blow up, it left the night skies across Europe so bright you could read a newspaper at midnight for something like a week. The power of the explosion is a real cause for worry–the thing wasn’t particularly big by solar system standards, but could have taken out a whole city without warning. While researching the story I read a very good book on the subject, I forget the title now but maybe I can find it, that had an appendix filled with computer modeling of various sized things hitting various parts of the earth from outer space. Most of them blew up over the oceans without leaving a trace, but the ones that were large and blew up over population centers–scary.
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 10:11 PM
I’ve always wanted to steer an asteroid into Mecca or Medina. 300 foot diameter should suffice. I’m tired of the same movies that continue to destroy NY or Paris(a plus), won’t somebody destroy a turd world city for once. Ever wonder how the story would unfold?
warpmine on June 26, 2007 at 10:13 PM
I am so impressed! This blast is so interesting and yes, I agree with other posters, what if it had happened over a major population center? I recall reading that the light from that blast made it daylight in London (but Bryan would know better, it is a while since I have seen or read about the blast)
Nice post, thanks!
CrimsonFisted on June 26, 2007 at 10:15 PM
Bryan: The history channel has been doing these things directly related to this in recent days.
warpmine on June 26, 2007 at 10:15 PM
If it’s big enough and the conditions are right, sure. The comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 did quite a bit of damage on Jupiter back in 1994. That was a big comet, but Jupiter is a big planet too. In fact, Jupiter’s job in the solar system is basically to gravitationally Hoover up all the debris, comets and asteroids, and keep it all from hitting us. In 1908, one slipped by the big goalie.
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 10:17 PM
Probably not as much as two planes flying into two buildings did.
Helloyawl on June 26, 2007 at 10:19 PM
I’d assume the effect of a large, low-detonating bollide or comet (I don’t know if there’s a specific term for an exploding comet…) could potentially be similar to that of a nuclear airburst. By unloading its energy above the ground, it might actually cause more damage over a greater area than it would if it struck the surface. (As I recall, with nukes there’s something of a “sweet spot” where the altitude of detonation induces a special kind of pressure wave called a “precursor,” the mechanics of which I’m far too dumb to understand, but which is apparently rather nasty.)
Assuming, of course, it was a comet or meteor. Personally, I’m optimistic the wreckage of the Mother Ship has finally been located!
Blacklake on June 26, 2007 at 10:22 PM
I just saw something on National Geographic (I think)…maybe The History Channel…that whatver it was never reached the ground. Hmmmmmmm…
I wouldn’t mind a small meteor hitting 64 Senators in the head. :)
SouthernGent on June 26, 2007 at 10:22 PM
Just to put Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 into perspective, it broke up into about 20 or so chunks on its way toward Jupiter, and one of the chunks left a bruise in Jupiter’s clouds that was roughly equal to the earth’s diameter. If that thing had hit us…?
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Sorry, just had to fix that.
db on June 26, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Definitely post when you find that book title, if ever.
brewt on June 26, 2007 at 10:23 PM
bryan, were you ever in astronaut training or anything?
lorien1973 on June 26, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Thanks
I would have expected an asteroid to cause that much damage but not a comet.
LOL
I never heard Jupiter described that way. To think I heard it from an ex-NASA employee…
F15Mech on June 26, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Bingo. I’ve watched parts of it several times. Fascinating story, Bryan.
Jaibones on June 26, 2007 at 10:28 PM
I also read a book on this some time ago. The few eyewitness accounts the investigators documented are fascinating.
infidel4life on June 26, 2007 at 10:29 PM
True, but imagine if it happened today. Most geopolitical players might well think they’d just been on the receiving end of a nuclear attack.
Presumably it could be determined relatively quickly that it wasn’t a bomb (I’d assume nukes generate some rather distinctive signatures). But, depending on the nation and the apparent severity of the “attack,” maybe not quickly enough to head off some sort of counter-strike contingency.
Not as likely today as at the height of the Cold War, I suppose. But still at least a little unsettling.
Blacklake on June 26, 2007 at 10:30 PM
Heh, no. So that scary diaper-wearing stalker astronaut and I have never met, if that was your next question.
I did get to hang around Mission Control during the 2002 mission to repair and upgrade Hubble, though. That was just the coolest week ever.
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 10:30 PM
$16 billion dollar NASA budget, less than 1% devoted to dealing with the asteroid “problem”. This bothers me.
Tman on June 26, 2007 at 10:31 PM
I just saw a show on the History Channel about this the other night. I’d never heard of the Tunguska event, but its a fascinating mystery.
CP on June 26, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Umm
ballistic trajectory for starters.
F15Mech on June 26, 2007 at 10:36 PM
Totally. The role of Jupiter, in fact, is a big part of the “Rare Earth” hypothesis. Without a gas giant of just that size at just the right place, there’s a good chance Earth would have been hit by too many bit impactors for complex life to have evolved–or, alternatively too few to provide the occasional mass extinctions that may be pivotal to the development of human-like intelligence. (And no, I absolutely do not want to re-ignite some Creation/evolution debate. I’m merely pointing out that this is in fact one aspect of the “Rare Earth” hypothesis.)
Blacklake on June 26, 2007 at 10:37 PM
It they hit something with their drill probes that makes a hollow metallic “clang”, then we’re talking.
But let’s hope Putin’s boys don’t get any advanced reverse-engineering hyper-technology out of it.
(I’d hate to see death rays with neo-hammers and sickles emblazoned on their grips.)
profitsbeard on June 26, 2007 at 10:38 PM
Not if it was set off by a terrorist in a truck. At any rate, the scenario would presumably play out as a big explosion leveling a good portion of a city, with nobody having any idea where it came from.
Radiation levels would be one of bigger tells, I’d think.
Blacklake on June 26, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Yup, that about sums it up. We’ve found lots of Jupiters out there and even a few roughly earth-size planets, but no systems configured like ours yet, with both a Jupiter and an earth in positions analogous to those the two planets occupy in our solar system. But the search for exoplanets is still in its infancy, and we’ve only searched a few percent of the galaxy let alone the rest of the universe, so there’s no use in ruling anything out just yet. It would just be nice to get a fix on what blew up over Tunguska and call it a day.
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 10:43 PM
Some months ago, I read an article (at sciencedaily.com, I think), proposing that water vapor added to the upper atmosphere by the Tunguska Event is a cause of a famous or notorious warming trend some claim to have observed over the course of the twentieth century. The Tunguska Event’s causative role seems plausible, if the opinion is true that water vapor is a much more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.
Kralizec on June 26, 2007 at 10:44 PM
F15Mech on June 26, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Well done Bryan. HA should have a weekly/bi-monthly astronomy post. By coincidence HA has an experienced science editor. You!
Griz on June 26, 2007 at 10:48 PM
True but if there was a ground blast with no ballistic trajectory it would not be a ICBM, comet, asteroid…
F15Mech on June 26, 2007 at 10:50 PM
I visited Fels Planatarium at the Benjamin Franklin Isstitute in Philadelphia many times in my youth. 1963-1966) The presentation was always outstanding. I used to try to figure out the projection equiptment which was shaped like a huge dumb bell. I received a little Gilbert telescope for Christmas one year. Finally in the eigth grade I entered into a school with individual classes and which peaked my interest on into highschool. This was in the mid to late sixties and as I got older my Fels Planatarium visits turned into Edmund scientific visits. Edmund was a pioneer in laser light shows and coupled with the music of the day and some good weed or mescaline it was a strong distraction from my interest in astronomy. So instead of authoring a post on Hot Air like Bryan I am just posting this bit of hippie trivia. lol Besides the geology I studied later on is more related to my construction background .(feild engineer)
sonnyspats1 on June 26, 2007 at 10:53 PM
Stop covering up for your shadow government Bryan. We all know he Tunguska event was a UFO crash, and they now walk among us. (Exhibit A: Allahpundit)
RightWinged on June 26, 2007 at 10:57 PM
Plane-teriums or planet-eriums?
Still, that’s pretty neat, that Tunguska incident has always fascinated me.
reaganaut on June 26, 2007 at 10:58 PM
I am so down for that. Humping Robots and Astronomy… whats not to love.
F15Mech on June 26, 2007 at 11:00 PM
I remembered the book title I mentioned earlier. It’s in the update.
Bryan on June 26, 2007 at 11:01 PM
That’s just cool. It’s been a long time since I saw the name Tunguska. What a great opportunity to have been able to research it.
I have a question tho’. Were there any comet sightings before the big boom? Remember seeing some comet (can’t remember which one – it was a pale streak across the night sky) and it was there for several days. Comet debris?
Oh, well, interesting break from what ails us today. (:P)
naliaka on June 26, 2007 at 11:24 PM
reaganaut … That would be planetarium. Damned flashbacks. lol
sonnyspats1 on June 26, 2007 at 11:33 PM
One of my favorite subjects this is. I did some work as a contractor for Goddard in Greenbelt and in College Park MD. It was on the development of infrared super-sensitive diodes to be used in the next generation telescope in deep space. Small part, but exciting work.
And you said we wouldn’t be interested, au contraire éclair!
I would like to see a science [vent] like this more often!
/geek
Kini on June 26, 2007 at 11:35 PM
Oops, Damn, there were 7 words I could never spell. I guess now there are 8.
Planet- ar – ium.
Hahaha.
reaganaut on June 26, 2007 at 11:37 PM
Here is a discription and a link I think you might enjoy.
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/
xplodeit on June 26, 2007 at 11:48 PM
Cool story Bryan. I was upset to learn that Hubble – badly in need of repair – will simply be let go. As I recall, the next space telescope will not be ready until 2010 (or something like that). Hubble has unlocked so many secrets and revealed so much of the universe – also providing many, many more questions. It will be sad to lose this incredible piece of equipment.
thedecider on June 26, 2007 at 11:49 PM
Wow Bryan, had no idea of your background. I have always been fascinated by the Tunguska event and welcome any new information on the subject. Thanks for the post and your past contributions to the science behind Tunguska. I look forward to more findings from this recent research.
RobertCSampson on June 26, 2007 at 11:58 PM
“I am so impressed! This blast is so interesting and yes, I agree with other posters, what if it had happened over a major population center? I recall reading that the light from that blast made it daylight in London (but Bryan would know better, it is a while since I have seen or read about the blast)
Nice post, thanks!
CrimsonFisted on June 26, 2007 at 10:15 PM”
It’d be like the last second of the last episode of the Sopranos. Apparently the made for popular Hollywood rendering of a cosmic event doesn’t track with reality. You wouldn’t see a large fiery object coming at you. Nope, no sir. It would be here on second, gone the next. These things are moving um fast.
pc on June 27, 2007 at 12:15 AM
When the “screen of life” goes black…would I still hear the Journey music?
F15Mech on June 27, 2007 at 12:26 AM
Bryan, I never understood this “blowing up” idea. Why would an asteroid, or comet, blow up due to friction? Don’t they just burn with friction? Isn’t that what things do when they enter the atmosphere? I have never liked that explanation for Tunguska simply because they never found a crater. It never sat well with me even as a kid.
jihadwatcher on June 27, 2007 at 12:29 AM
The staggering velocity is what does it. Boom!
When global warming craps out the Dhemocrats can use asteroid impact as the next big WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING political event.
Mojave Mark on June 27, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Bryan,
Wasn’t the area flattened about 830 square miles instead of 800 acres of woods?
Also, can you let us know on this blog when the next one is going to hit, so I can crawl under my bed? – I’m allergic to asteroid impacts.
Texas Mike on June 27, 2007 at 1:09 AM
THE WINNER!!!!
urbancenturion on June 27, 2007 at 1:13 AM
Sorry to be a pain, but if spelling lessons are fair game now…
IsstituteInstituteequiptmentequipmentdumb belldumbbelleigtheighthpeakedPIQUED (sorry, a peeve)feildfield(not to mention the grammar and punctuation–sorry again; feel free to flame if I missed anything)
urbancenturion on June 27, 2007 at 1:26 AM
urbancenturion on June 27, 2007 at 1:26 AM
Where I come from we have a saying and it goes. When I ask for toilet paper you roll in.
sonnyspats1 on June 27, 2007 at 1:48 AM
What a great career background Bryan. Yet another well-rounded reason why I really enjoy the HotAir team. Thanks for sharing!
JeffB. on June 27, 2007 at 1:50 AM
Why confront them at all?
amerpundit on June 26, 2007 at 7:08 PM
for the fun of it
So why haven’t any of you proposed marriage?
‘couse I don’t know her cell #
He’ll fit right in under the new caliphate.
no, he’d be the first victim of a rape-room
urbancenturion on June 27, 2007 at 12:24 AM
What is ‘couse? Ha Do you have any original thoughts? When do you intend to impress the HA site with your intellectual prowess, or are you strictly a critic/english teacher?
sonnyspats1 on June 27, 2007 at 2:26 AM
First of all welcome to HA.
The only flame I will shoot out is that spelling/grammar corrections are generally not done on this site. (In fact it is looked down upon).
Since you understood the comment well enough to make corrections. You certainly understood the meaning.
What point does pointing out corrections serve?
I will be the first to admit that my spelling/grammar is not the best; I do not need you to point it out to me.
Since I do not speak for this site the mods are free to correct me, delete my post etc.
F15Mech on June 27, 2007 at 2:33 AM
OK so maybe you are not new…
The same rules still apply
F15Mech on June 27, 2007 at 2:38 AM
Little Green Footballs just implemented a spell checker for their posts – I’ll chip in some dinero if we can get one for this site.
Texas Mike on June 27, 2007 at 3:06 AM
Very interesting Bryan. You are a true ‘Renaissance Man’. every time I think I got you figured out, you show hidden depths and breadths.
I’ve been intrigued by Tunguska since I got into meteorites about 20 years ago.
Glad they are making progress; I’d like to see that enigma solved.
LegendHasIt on June 27, 2007 at 5:25 AM
That’s it!
Bryan, you’ve finally explained the Big Red Spot. It’s the Hoover logo!
:)
wearyman on June 27, 2007 at 8:13 AM
I didn’t know Allahpundit was an extraterrestrial :)
However, this could explain the existence of Dennis Rodman. He’s the proof of extra-terrestrial life that scientists have been overlooking for decades.
Bigfoot on June 27, 2007 at 8:30 AM
Mojave Mark had it right.
I’ve always liked the way it’s put in Robinson’s Law;
This has also been rendered more casually, but equally accurately, as
As for the “airburst”, it was most likely caused by a combination of structural stress and/or internal pressure buildup. If the Tunguska “object” was a stony meteor (as opposed to a nickel-iron one) the aerodynamic pressure at the altitude it blew at was probably just enough (due to a combination of velocity, compression effects, internal and surface heating, and shock effects) to cause it to undergo what the Royal Air Force used to call, with precision, “catastrophic self-disassembly”. If it was a comet core, by comparison (since comets are basically very large balls of ice, dust, etc.), the aerodynamic heating and compression might have heated the ice/gaseous elements enough to cause either (a) a massive steam explosion or (b) even “further out”, if hydrogen was present (and it probably was), an actual compression-induced H2 to He fusion reaction. The latter would handily explain most of the ground effects, as well as the now-confirmed lack of residual radiation. Remember, the radiation left after an H-bomb blast is caused by the (multistage fission-fusion) bomb’s fission trigger. In this case, there may have been an H-bomb type reaction without a fission initiation stage.
In case you haven’t guessed by now, I’m an amateur science geek. And I have nothing but admiration for people like Bryan, who have the brains and skills to do it on a professional basis.
BTW, if you’re a space-science fan, or an SF fan, or both, you might like this site;
Atomic Rockets
It’s where I found both versions of Robinson’s Law.
Warning; If you are a fan of Golden Age SF space ships, or are just fascinated by rocketry in general, be prepared to spend a lot of time reading this site. And yes, it is updated regularly.
cheers
eon
eon on June 27, 2007 at 8:51 AM
So the object made the lake or it just happened to hit the lake?
JinxMcHue on June 27, 2007 at 10:31 AM
The idea is that the object made the lake.
jeffshultz on June 27, 2007 at 12:46 PM
I hate to rain on everyone’s parade, but shouldn’t the scientists first confirm whether Michael Moore has ever para-glided in northern Russia before claiming to have found the Tunguska impact site?
andycanuck on June 27, 2007 at 4:37 PM
Tunguska will be small-fry compared to when the Republican Party implodes after it’s pro-shamnesty votes.
Mack08 on June 27, 2007 at 7:47 PM
BRYAN: Did you ever follow the work of Louis Frank of U of Iowa? In the mid 90s he was excoriated for positing that the earth was being bombarded with box car sized snow balls. Fanscinating stuff and fun to watch real smart people get stupid over ideas.
Grunch42 on June 27, 2007 at 9:30 PM