Tears flow as Taliban’s baby bomber tells troops, elders of plot
posted at 4:51 pm on June 25, 2007 by Allahpundit
Background here. He seems unusually sharp for a six-year-old but the military says he’s for real. Heart-ache:
Juma said that sometime last month Taliban fighters forced him to wear a vest they said would spray out flowers when he touched a button. He said they told him that when he saw American soldiers, “throw your body at them.”
The militants cornered Juma in a Taliban-controlled district in southern Afghanistan’s Ghazni province. Their target was an impoverished youngster being raised by an older sister — but also one who proved too street-smart for their plan.
“When they first put the vest on my body I didn’t know what to think, but then I felt the bomb,” Juma told The Associated Press as he ate lamb and rice after being introduced to the elders at this joint U.S.-Afghan base in Ghazni. “After I figured out it was a bomb, I went to the Afghan soldiers for help.”…
As [the head of the village] told Juma’s story, 20 Afghan elders repeatedly clicked their tongues in sadness and disapproval. When the boy and his brother were brought in, several of the turban-wearing men welled up, wiping their eyes with handkerchiefs…
Haji Niaz Mohammad, one of the elders at the gathering, said he hoped “God makes the Afghan government strong” so it can defeat the Taliban.
“They are the enemy of Muslims and the enemy of the children,” he said, shaking his fists in anger.
If you haven’t seen them before and have a strong stomach, Rusty Shackleford has stills from the video of the 12-year-old Talib beheading an accused American spy.
Blowback
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the old afghan is right.
zane on June 25, 2007 at 4:56 PM
And therein lies the difference between our Afghan allies and our enemies. I haven’t been this pissed off, almost, since I came home…
major john on June 25, 2007 at 4:56 PM
gee, and here i thought the only flowers they had in Afghan were poppy plants
gberez on June 25, 2007 at 4:59 PM
no moral equivolance in the piece? I’m shocked.
lorien1973 on June 25, 2007 at 5:02 PM
Is there someplace to donate to this young mans future?
ronsfi on June 25, 2007 at 5:06 PM
How dare they prevent this kid from going directly to paradise!
Sounds Islamophobic or xenophobic, or some kind of phobic.
(While the Taliban are merely hydrophobic.)
profitsbeard on June 25, 2007 at 5:08 PM
Funny, you never hear of the Christian right doing this to their children – or orphans for that matter.
On-my-soap-box on June 25, 2007 at 5:11 PM
If I had my choice, we would stockpile all the suicide vests that we confiscate. Then we would strap them on every crazed jihadi we capture alive and hang them off a weapons pylon of an A-10. Then drop those vest wearing jihadis back on their source. Save us some money on munitions and provide an opportunity to dispense some ironic justice. Gives a whole new twist to the term “suicide bomber”. I can dream can’t I?
Guardian on June 25, 2007 at 5:12 PM
At the next Demon-crat debate have this story printed out and hand it to each candidate and ask for a reaction…..
you’ll get….
1. We need to talk to these people.
2. We need to hold Israel responsible.
3. This is what the Bush-war causes around the globe.
what you won’t get is ‘bastards’.
Limerick on June 25, 2007 at 5:12 PM
A little ray of light in a dark world! :)
synycalwon on June 25, 2007 at 5:15 PM
I wondered how long it would take for the usual comments laying this at the feet of all Muslims, despite the fact that Afghan Army soldiers helped the boy, Afghan tribal leaders were outraged at the Taliban’s use of the boy, and even a comment by Major John up there noting – from the experience of actually being in Afghanistan – the distinction between our Afghan allies and the Taliban nutters, all of whom self-identify as Muslim.
Carry on.
BillINDC on June 25, 2007 at 5:18 PM
where? I see no general condemnation.
Limerick on June 25, 2007 at 5:23 PM
Sorry Bill. I don’t see it either.
Guardian on June 25, 2007 at 5:24 PM
His arrogant attitude aside, Bills right. The Afghan people seem to at least be trying to make their society better, give them their due.
Bad Candy on June 25, 2007 at 5:24 PM
And actually, there really wasn’t that much in broad criticism of Muslims, so Bill can sod off, actually.
Bad Candy on June 25, 2007 at 5:26 PM
Will NBC devote a 2 minute segment to this? We know they hyped the story of a few children being killed by our bombs (when a Taliban stronghold was attacked) a couple weeks ago. As O’Reilly noted, the other networks did 10-15 seconds, just mentioning the story… but NBC focused on it, clearly for no other reason than to undermine the war. (Though I’ll be interested to hear some of our regular liberal friends try to defend the NBC coverage).
Anyway, the point is, I would be willing to bet anything they won’t do 2 minutes on this kid. You see, making the U.S. military/Bush/America look bad is what it’s all about, so they’re all to excited to obsess on a story of no news value, but instead just pulls on heartstrings… but revealing that terrorists would strap a bomb on a small child to kill people is not PC in the current media culture. Collateral damage (as happens in all war) = big coverage = America bad. Deliberate killing of children by the actual bad guys = … Uh… I think Paris Hilton gets out soon!
RightWinged on June 25, 2007 at 5:38 PM
Or, like, any broad critcisms of Muslims.
So, that foolishness aside, Bill, I’d like to know what sort of strange, white-guilt-esqe torment in your psyche you’re salving by carrying water for Islam by separating the terrorist element out as “self-identifying” Muslims. Your implication is that they should not be considered to be Muslims, when in fact any reasonable reading of the Koran and Islamic history would argue otherwise. Are all Muslims the same? No. But those that carry out Jihad (against, you know, dar-ul-jihad, the house of war, which is us) are hardly waaaay outside the fold.
TexasDan on June 25, 2007 at 5:42 PM
I’m waiting now to hear from Rosie, Edwards, Kerry, both Clintons, Pelosi, Reid, and Carter to find out what they think about this latest episode of ‘insurgency’. If the newsrags report it, I expect the depth to be limited to passing mention in a report on the number of US deaths over the weekend.
Yeah, we’re the bad guys in this (non) war on terror.
Liam on June 25, 2007 at 5:42 PM
6th comment, obligatory reference to denying martyrdom, implying westerners had stopped the kids death, when it was other Muslims (possibly not meant as a general indictment of Islam, merely radicals – but from a commenter with the most ridiculously inflammatory history of general anti-Islam comments). 7th comment borderline – implying it’s necessarily Islam. But I admit: these comments are not as generally condemnatory as under the previous thread on this same story, which included the charming term “koranimals,” and the exhortation “Reason 9999999.99 to eliminate Islam from the face of the earth…”
Or any other threads talking about “banning Islam” (as if such a thing is possible), etc etc.
I guess I just grow tired of the mental gymnastics of commenters that expend considerable sound and fury against Muslims yet ostensibly support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, strategies predicated on building civil Muslim societies. Like the illogic of comments under the thread about Fox airing the documentary “Muslims against Jihad” saying how important the documentary was, while characterizing Islam as an irredeemable belief system/identification. Apparently those commenters failed to recognize the first word in the title of the banned documentary that they lauded.
Not broaching the comments answering every instance of radical jihad with an exhortation to turn swaths of the ME into “radioactive slag.”
Some of the folks doing amateur theological/foreign policy/defense analysis are so far removed from the nitty-gritty, rubber-meets-the-road of American foreign policy focused around winning hearts and minds – while ostensibly supporting it – I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
BillINDC on June 25, 2007 at 5:45 PM
A. I have no “white-guilt-esqe torment in [my] psyche”
B. I’m not ” the terrorist element out as “self-identifying” Muslims.” Re-read the sentence. Both the terrorist Taliban and the non-terrorist US allies “self-identify as Muslims.” Thus, to believe that Islam practically commands such atrocious behavior is objectively false.
BillINDC on June 25, 2007 at 5:48 PM
BillNDC-
Best to read “the usual comments” first.
The condemnations were aimed at the Taliban maniacs.
Are they Muslim? Sure.
Are they all Muslims? No, thank God.
Islam’s violent Koranic dogmas are the problem, with Muslims as their first and worst victims.
Any “creed” that threatens to assassinate you if you want to leave is more like a horror movie than a religion.
I feel sorry for anyone trapped in this thrillkill cult.
May more of his countrymen become like Mr. A. Rahman -the Afghan who had to be flown to asylum in Italy so he could avoid death at the hands of his theocratically-brainwashed neighbors …for the “sin” of converting to Christianity.
profitsbeard on June 25, 2007 at 5:48 PM
B. shoudk start I’m not “separating the terrorist element out as “self-identifying” Muslims.”
BillINDC on June 25, 2007 at 5:49 PM
Yep…….the ‘we ain’t smart crowd’……..I understand.
Limerick on June 25, 2007 at 5:53 PM
Profitsbeard- you say -
Generally, i agree.
Like …
Ah yes, yes, inevitable Christian arguments: “but look at the New Testament,” “but abrogation,” ” but the Koran is the direct word of God, the Bible is not (though some Christians claim otherwise)” and all. But what has stayed the hand of the modern Jews?
Death for apostasy is unfortunately not an uncommon element of many religions.
BillINDC on June 25, 2007 at 5:54 PM
That’s your own insecurity talking.
But I would describe it as the “I support US foreign policy even when it tries to bring humanism, modernity and the rule of law to those I consider adherents to an immutable death cult.”
Leaving the thread now. Things to do, as well as belatedly recalling that arguing on the internet is a definition of futility.
BillINDC on June 25, 2007 at 5:59 PM
You might want to brush up on the nature of the threat a little Bill.
Qur’an:2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”
Qur’an:47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an:8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”
Qur’an:8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an:8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster ( strapping bombs to little kids) so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
I could go on and on but you get the point.
Guardian on June 25, 2007 at 5:59 PM
Radical Islam has taken the place of other recent threats to civilization: Nazism and Communism. And, just like the Nazis and the Communists, radical Islam needs its Hitler Youth and Young Pioneers. Tyranny always targets the children.
OhEssYouCowboys on June 25, 2007 at 5:59 PM
Left the thread……guess that was my insecurity also.
Limerick on June 25, 2007 at 6:01 PM
Amen!
billy on June 25, 2007 at 6:07 PM
This is absolutely irration. The text calls for it, even so that doesn’t mean that every Muslim follows it. From analogy: Scripture calls for Christians to not murder, yet some Christians have.
Basically, the text calls for terrorism, abusing women, etc etc. The difference is that the “reformed” ones ignore those text. That is like a homosexual who practices Christianity. It is called an abomination, yet he ignores it or tries to justify why the text doesn’t say what it actually says.
The same goes for Islam, while many will take a “reformed” position, there is always going to be the group that will rejected the “reformed” position and justify it (correctly so) that the text does not warrant the conclusion (Peaceful Islam). Rather, they will point out that historically and hermeneutically Islam calls for terrorism/conquest.
Tim Burton on June 25, 2007 at 6:08 PM
You didn’t see me or Craig Winn laud it. Why? Because we know it is crap.
In fact, Faith Freedom doesn’t hold that it is a reformable religion.
The issue is that those on here laud it, because they don’t have the stomach, nor the courage to be called nasty names for saying it. “Islam needs to be destroyed by conquest or conversion, for it will always threaten humanity.”
Tim Burton on June 25, 2007 at 6:12 PM
I went to a private catholic parochial school in my youth. It was established by priests from Notre Dame in the late 1800′s. The nuns who ran the school were of the Sisters of Mercy an Irish order. Even though alot of the students came from affluent families the Sisters had admitted a few students who’s families were impoverished. I being a blue eyed /blond sicilian was accepted among the Irish and Italians. I befriended two of the charity case students. One in particular was excited to invite me to his home after school. I visited him at his motherless home many times and met and became friends with his neighborhood pals. The neighborhood was on the waterfront across the Delaware river from Philidelphia, in the shadows of the enormous expanse of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge. Even though the guys probably favored me for being more normal than they I was the one who benifited more from the relationships for having witnessed the courage and fortitude of these practically parentless kids. I guess its the survival instinct that hardens a youngster and allows him to cope. Somehow when I see the furrowed brow of the Afghan boy in the photo my mind harkens back to those tough kids I knew as a boy. Wouldn’t it be grand if that look was steely eyed determination and not hatred. Time will tell. As a side note the other guy grew up to be 6’4″ 280. One night while I was involved in a bar roon altercation *ahem* Big Jim Dooley came to my aid in the person of the bar room bouncer. Ah memories!
sonnyspats1 on June 25, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Realistically there is no such thing as a “moderate” or “extremist” form of Islam. There is only one Islam. As Tim Burton pointed out, there are only those that adhere to the message and ideology of Islam and those that do not.
Guardian on June 25, 2007 at 6:19 PM
I’m agnostic, so I couldn’t care less what religions try to insist on.
The Beatitudes beat Sura 9:5 anyday.
The Buddha’s Flower sermon makes the Koran a tissue of nonsense. Lao Tzu’s “The emptiness of the vessel is as important as the walls” makes all of Mohammad’s plagiarizing creed seem crude and cruel simple-minded and unsubtle as hell.
I excoriate Islam satirically and exaggeratedly because it is so bloody-mindedly literalistic.
I oppose its opposition to my freedom.
If you consider that “ridiculously inflammatory” and “anti-Islam“, what do you consider Islam’s dogma? Or its Koranically-sanctified goal of a global gulag, with all infidels in submission, or dead, and happy imams as the prison tower guards? Ala Shi’ite Iran or Sunni Saudi Arabia? (They follow the “honored” Islamic texts seriously and strictly, and that always appears to lead to intolerance, misogyny, slavery and theocratic terrorism.)
Theo Van Gogh admittedly was “ridiculously inflammatory” and “anti-Islam“. He saw it as a threat to his country’s ultra-liberal traditions of tolerance of freethought. A defender of the creed slaughtered him for his opinions.
Can we not criticize Islam strongly? Nor mock its extremist madnesses?
If Islam can’t take a joke, it becomes one.
profitsbeard on June 25, 2007 at 6:25 PM
Juma was spared, and for that I give thanks. I am so grateful for the photos and stories that remind us of the humanity of the people we are fighting FOR.
Remember this spellbinding story about an Afghan martyr?
We need a steady stream of pro-ally photos and videos coming out of the Middle East.
RushBaby on June 25, 2007 at 6:39 PM
How many kids should we kill to kill one Taliban official?
Nonfactor on June 25, 2007 at 6:42 PM
How many kids should we kill to kill one Taliban official?
Nonfactor on June 25, 2007 at 6:42 PM
What we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
sonnyspats1 on June 25, 2007 at 7:00 PM
We the United States, we humans. The good thing about foreign languages is that they have two different forms of “we”–a lot harder for people to deliberately misinterpret what you’re saying.
Nonfactor on June 25, 2007 at 7:10 PM
“Is there someplace to donate to this young man’s future?”
Indeed! This one is worth saving. Any 6-year old that smart should be encouraged to the extreme!
thejackal on June 25, 2007 at 7:10 PM
How many, Nonfactor? Is zero the only acceptable answer?
Pablo on June 25, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Fixed.
Guardian on June 25, 2007 at 7:37 PM
Liam on June 25, 2007 at 5:42 PM
If you hear anything from that crowd (Rosie,….. etc) they will claim it never happened, it is just another right wing conspiracy.
SIJ6141 on June 25, 2007 at 8:08 PM
Isn’t this pure proof that the “billion muslims will all be angry at us” is a load of propagandist crap? Wasn’t this very comment made again recently on some prominent blog this week, by someone who should know better? The truth is out there, even in the remote villages – surprise – most people don’t like the Islamofascists, not one little bit. They love their kids – and incredibly (for the scoffers), an encouraging number of men prefer one wife even when they are allowed the option for more, and they work hard to support them as responsible heads of households.
Radical Islamofascism as practiced by Al Qaeda, the Taliban, the Iranian Mullah regime and the Muslim Brotherhood is extreme and unnaturally vicious. It is like Ebola Fever – scorching hot, bloody and horrifying, with an initial impression that it’s 100% contagious and unstoppable, but it burns out. Ebola doesn’t spread as far as one would think because it is in fact too hot for the hosts – actually not all that successful an infection as it kills too fast and thus limits its transmission. In contrast, HIV/AIDS is more sly – people carry it for a long time before developing the warning signs of infection – and thus infect many people.(interesting observation made in the book, The Hot Zone).
Radical Islamofascism is that bizarre – it works by brute power and force, on the defenseless – not anything that endears it to the general public. They’ll be afraid of it, yes. Go along to stay alive, yes, but the moment the tables can be turned, the people will drive it out. Remember the fall of Kabul? The Left MSM practically begged that the Northern Alliance not go into Kabul, but they (fortunately) ignored the media sages and swept their front line advance to the city. The Taliban ran like rabbits – not a one wanted to be left without his Taliban bully back-ups in that newly free-to-be irate city.
If people say that ALL One Billion Muslims will hate America because she stands up to Islamofascism is simply parroting the overwrought and self-serving lies of the jihadists. The jihadis hate EVERYONE, but guess what, EVERYONE hates THEM in return. And there are more “everyone” than “jihadis.” And always will be.
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 8:11 PM
Perhaps you are thinking of “You”?
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 8:12 PM
Or perhaps you meant, “Them?”
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 8:14 PM
Nonfactor on June 25, 2007 at 7:10 PM
Oui.
sonnyspats1 on June 25, 2007 at 8:16 PM
Is there an AP approved epithet we can use to describe the Taliban since “r**head” is on the no-no list?
.
GT on June 25, 2007 at 8:25 PM
How many innocent people does the Taliban official get to kill before we can come up with the answer?
.
GT on June 25, 2007 at 8:28 PM
I’ve read sura 9 of the Qur’an, so I need neither the terrorist Taliban nor the non-terrorist U.S. allies to instruct me in the divine law. In particular, I’ve seen the phrase “every strategem,” and I can’t make it go away. No matter what the Taliban, or a twelve-year-old beheader, or a six-year-old refuser, or an anti-Taliban elder says on one side or another, I can see very well that the eternal word of Allah, as the muslims would have it, gives the muslims a carte blanche.
Shame on you, at any rate, for tarting up your simplistic reasoning as a basis on which to make a claim of objective falsity or objective anything. It’s your interpretation of affairs against mine, and I think one interprets Islam much more reliably by paying close attention to Islam’s scriptures than by supposing that the whole matter is just the Taliban’s word versus some Afghan elders’.
Kralizec on June 25, 2007 at 8:35 PM
It is not our troops’ fault that the Taliban think nothing of hiding in, among and behind little innocent children, KNOWING that our troops value kids and will hesitate to RETURN fire.
You save your ire for the sicko creeps who kill and then run behind children, not for the troops who try very hard to keep kids out of the line of fire.
After so many years of fighting, it’s incredible that there have been so few bad incidents – think of it – our soldiers are armed to the teeth with high tech weaponry – walking arsenals, yet they are highly disciplined and keep that force under control. If you don’t think so, then you know zero about warfare. Zero. If you want to see what an undisciplined army really looks like, and how bone chillyingly scary it is for your own personal security, go to say, Zimbabwe or Ivory Coast and see sloppy discipline, heightened by AK-37s and too much beer. Course, you could also spend some time reading about other occupying armies – Japanese in China, Korea, for example? Never mind reading, juts ASK any Chinese who was alive during the invasion of China. How about the Germans inserting the SS into their conquered neighbors – filling the trains with citizens who’ve never come back?
Even the Japanese believed it dishonorable and unmanly to hide behind children.
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Oh my, BillINDC, I just read profitsbeard’s comment on June 25, 2007 at 6:25 PM. I feel your pain, and I hope you’ll try to go another round with profitsbeard, so I can feel some more of your pain.
Kralizec on June 25, 2007 at 8:51 PM
That’s a typo – I usually let the transposed stuff go thru with a resigned shrug, but guess I’d better disown that AK-37, quick, before the mocking begins.
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 8:57 PM
as the King of Fat Fingers you are hereby pardoned ;)
Limerick on June 25, 2007 at 9:02 PM
Maybe some crop dusting equipment and some pigs blood. Start spraying. They will be far too busy trying to clean themselves up to worry about bombing anyone…
NRA4Freedom on June 25, 2007 at 9:10 PM
Goodness, some people are wordy.
My longest post ever doesn’t even come close to some of these comments. I try to boil my thoughts down to their basic elements, and leave the essays to Bill Whittle.
So, BillINDC suggests that all Muslims aren’t evil and gets stepped on because of it.
Having spent over 7 months in Saudi Arabia I’m willing to bet my reputation on the fact that the overwhelming majority of people there wouldn’t even CONCEIVE of strapping explosives onto their child.
So say I, Brian the sailor, in my first ever comment on HotAir.
Damn, it’s good to be here. I’ve wanted to get my foot in the door since HotAir’s inception. Thanks for the opportunity!
Brian the sailor on June 25, 2007 at 9:29 PM
NRA4Freedom. If your comment hasn’t been deleted by the time I finish typing this…that was uncalled for.
I understand your anger, but that goes too far.
Brian the sailor on June 25, 2007 at 9:36 PM
The 6-year old’s story and the stills inspire rage. Nonfactor inspires contempt.
Some day it will be too late for us and your views will be major contributors. You and yours will not be excempted – au contraire, you’ll be the first. They hate you more than others.
Entelechy on June 25, 2007 at 9:48 PM
Welcome to NOUS ! One big, happy, US. Or in Spanish, Nosotros! Or the Hindi “Ham” or first person plural Swahili “Sisi.”
As opposed to hanging out with “Them, They or Those people”
Ils, Elles, Eux … Ellos, Ellas … Wao!
Sorry, just messin’ with the multilingual Nonfactor.
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 9:55 PM
Grey Tribesman, then?
RushBaby on June 25, 2007 at 9:55 PM
I don’t understand why anyone would ever makes the “my religion is less insane in the wrong hands than yours” argument anymore.
Tman on June 25, 2007 at 9:56 PM
I told my husband about this little boy last night, and we both spent a long time talking about how lucky our US-born-and-bred children are. Religion is poor excuse for strapping explosives to a young child and sending him to his death. I just want to give the little guy a hug and protect him… guess that’s the momma bear in me.
the goddess anna on June 25, 2007 at 10:01 PM
If anyone could accurately define Phelps’ religion it’d help remove a lot of confusion.
Personality cult comes to mind instantly.
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 10:07 PM
That makes me happy.
Nonfactor on June 25, 2007 at 10:09 PM
I was a little slow to catch on there, RushBaby.
Yeah, he’s my hero. Greatest American thinker, although Bill would never admit it.
Brian the sailor on June 25, 2007 at 10:14 PM
Speaking of bizarre-o personality cults …
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 10:34 PM
I don’t understand why people want to keep theorizing about Christians with bombs and guns when we have actual religious zealots with bombs and guns.
Can’t we worry about Christians killing people when they become the real threat?
I just bought a CD, one I knew wasn’t Christian-friendly but still expected better of, and saw inside an image of two arms out stretched. One held a Bible, the other, an automatic weapon.
Seriously, why bother with the metaphor when you can use the real thing? Are we so bored with 9-11 that we have to invent another enemy?
Esthier on June 25, 2007 at 10:39 PM
This makes me angry.
Nonfactor on June 25, 2007 at 10:43 PM
No answer from Nonfactor on this one?
Not that I expect an answer, but what’s the moral thing to do, Nonfactor? Should we simply do nothing?
Just because we’re not the ones doing the killing, it doesn’t mean there isn’t blood on our hands. If we, and by we, I mean any decent person no matter what nationality, sit by and allow this to happen, it’s on us.
Esthier on June 25, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Let’s give him a minute to see if he truly is a nonfactor.
Pablo on June 25, 2007 at 11:02 PM
Hmmm. I would beg to differ – the mild mannered Sunni, Dari-speakers I knew wouldn’t have too much, theologically, in common with an Arabic speaking Salafist or Wahhibi. Some Sufi/heterodox sect emember wouldn’t quite see eye to eye with someone from the Nation of Islam either.
Sunni Turks and Shite Persians spent many a century fighting, and religion was a fair part of it too.
I just want the bloodthirsty part of Islam pushed down and out of existance. We can help, but it will take more than external pressure – most of the blood and pain will come from the aforementioned non-bloodthirsty Muslims.
major john on June 25, 2007 at 11:10 PM
Oh, and nonfactor – are you advocating the successful use of human shields? That is what you seem to be doing – if these scum hide amongst civilians, then they should eb completely off limits, no exceptions?
major john on June 25, 2007 at 11:13 PM
Hard to believe. Terrorists who PROMISE to cut your head off or best scenario, enslave you, make you happy and you get a little steamed ’cause the casual observers of your comments think that’s a statement from someone who must believe that “decapitate” and “enslave” are just hyperbole or perhaps “metaphors,” and that all that screeching and frothing, riots, smashing, car bombs and human bombs has absolutely nothing to do with reality.
Our enemy puts bombs on little kids but you don’t condemn them in the strongest terms, or call up Amnesty International, or fax Geneva to demand International outrage for the despicable violation of human dignity by using unwitting kids as bomb delivery systems, but rather snarl at our troops who must make decisions they never dreamed they’d have to make, in an instant, picking right from wrong in two seconds. Bet you take longer than that to decide which latte you want in the morning.
Or are “Tu” ou peut-etre “Vous” ticked cause you don’t know much about usages of personal pronouns in other languages?
naliaka on June 25, 2007 at 11:50 PM
If BillINDC had contented himself with saying that all muslims aren’t evil, we would merely have poured on him the contempt we reserve for those who state the obvious. I haven’t spent seven months in Saudi Arabia, yet I agree with you it seems unlikely that very many of its people would think of strapping explosives on their child. My point is that sura 9 of the Q’u'r’an’ commands “every strategem,” not that all or even most muslims are single-minded enough to aim for sufficient holiness actually to obey the divine command to the nth degree. Nevertheless, as long as sura 9 and similar passages are in the ”Q’ura’n, Islam will remain the religion that commands its followers to convert, kill, or tax unbelievers out of existence. It’s a system of oppression that has worked quite well despite the mediocre obedience of “the overwhelming majority” of muslims.
Kralizec on June 26, 2007 at 12:12 AM
Actually no, abrogation is a very valid point. The issue is that every Muslim historian and every Imam of any prominence has the Sword verses abrogating the peaceful verses.
Even the verses you quote, you can’t deny that they were given to Israel as a nation, not Christianity.
The next objection is a basic reading is that they are national rules and turning from the center of the cultural spoke was the equivalent of treason.
There is a huge difference between treason and leaving a religion.
Finally, that verse talks about people who went openly against the religion, as opposed to leaving the religion and being quiet about it. That passage allows for people to worship their god in their home, but openly and nationally it was not allowed. Huge difference. Just as there would be few complaints if Islamic countries, say Saudi Arabia, allowed house churches to teach their own followers, but not to evangelize. Presently, they don’t even allow that. Israel was more open than that, they allowed people to worship as they saw fit privately.
Tim Burton on June 26, 2007 at 12:29 AM
Let “many religions” be judged morally equivalent to Islam, or let them be judged morally nonequivalent; I don’t care. Islam has some 1.1 billion adherents; they have high rates of fertility and the energy and aggressiveness of youth, and they’re very well-funded. Under these conditions, they’ve begun a new era of expansion, the limits of which are unknown. Whether the divine laws of Islam and Judaism are morally equivalent is a point I have little interest in judging, because unlike Islam, Judaism is tiny, reformed, and just generally weak. When Islam is driven to such a low state, I won’t care about the moral character of Islam any more than I do about the moral character of Judaism.
Come back, BillINDC, so we can taunt you a second time. You provide the satisfactions of the medium setting on a PC game: a good workout and a total rout.
Kralizec on June 26, 2007 at 12:58 AM
Kralizec,
This is precisely the kind of open debate and conversation I was hoping to get here.
It’s why I’ve been trying to get my foot in the door for so long.
Thanks for your response.
Brian the sailor on June 26, 2007 at 1:09 AM
I don’t condemn them on this blog because it’s unnecessary, just as if I wouldn’t need to say “murder is bad,” whenever someone brings up a killing. But apparantly you aren’t satisfied, so here goes: “that’s bad.” Now you can get over yourself.
I’m not snarling, I’m posing a moral question nobody here has yet answered.
Quanti accettiamo?
Quanti accettate?
Same meaning different pronouns.
Nonfactor on June 26, 2007 at 1:12 AM
If I enjoy debate with people I mostly agree with, (okay, linguist, with whom I mostly agree. Sorry I can’t say it in Latin.) then I also like to read the views of people who are generally irritating.
Anyway, Nonfactor, take that for what it’s worth. I seldom make sense (chuckle).
But I enjoy the debate.
Brian the sailor on June 26, 2007 at 1:33 AM
We need to lube all our bullets, dip our bombs and grenades in lard. Let the islamofacists know we have done so. No virgins for the dirty dead. We do need to know how to help this youngster. Chances are the taliban would like to get their mitts on him again. I think he deserves a chance at a good education at the very least.
Zelsdorf Ragshaft on June 26, 2007 at 2:02 AM
I have a problem with this child most lie how do I no I used to be one
American8298 on June 26, 2007 at 2:43 AM
Cool, you seem like a pretty good guy, but then again we haven’t talked about religion yet.
Nonfactor on June 26, 2007 at 3:23 AM
And yet you keep reaching for moral equivalence by suggesting that killing a human shield is just as bad. There’s a very simple question on the table for you, nonfactor, and it’s virtually identical to the one you asked above. Do you have the courage or the honesty to answer it?
Pablo on June 26, 2007 at 7:50 AM
Kralizec -
That’s fine if YOU don’t care about religions being judged morally equivalent or non-equivalent. But …
.. but those equivalencies are the terms incessantly analyzed by Robert Spencer and lauded by those on this blog. Terms which you employ several comments before:
Again, which terms are we arguing about? The verses in the OT remained. What changed?
But back to the second argument: the argument about the threat posed by the current nature of Islam is strong, and it is a slightly different argument.
That said, I find it interesting that you celebrate that Judaism has been “driven to such a low state,” something which only took hundreds and hundreds of years of Christian Easter pogroms, a Holocaust and Islamic expansion. Congrats!
Happy I could boost your self-confidence.
Regarding Tim Burton, Guardian, Kralizec all calling me out on my “objective comment” regarding Islam’s compulsion to do bad things, in this case, strap an explosive to a six year old:
There is nothing in the Koran that commands jihadis to use children as a tactic. So my point was that it is, indeed, objectively false in this specific case. I was not of course claiming that Islam does not call for jihad, death for apostates, dhimmi tax, or any of the other unpleasantries, etc., as that would be ridiculous. Strawman disabled.
I’m simply saying that the tendency to take every depredation committed by jihadis and maniacs – like, say using 6 year-olds as bombs – and lay it at the direct feet of Islam is not exactly accurate or fair, especially when other Muslims decry the tactic.
As for Tim Burton’s statement:
Well at least you have logical consistency going for your position, I’ll sincerely grant you that.
But beyond any moral qualms about your prescription, the practicality of that statement is about as pie-in-the-sky realistic as a Marxist dreaming about a utopian redistribution of wealth. Conquering and converting over a billion people in a day and age of terrorism, asymmetric warfare and globalization is simply impossible. Simply put, terrorists will have nukes before any campaign would even get significantly underway.
A rational response for you – given your frame of reference – would be to move up to the mountains and stock up on canned food and iodine pills.
BillINDC on June 26, 2007 at 8:46 AM
You still don’t get it Bill.
Qur’an:8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster ( strapping bombs to little kids) so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
Islam is terrorism. They are inseparable ideologies. Those that believe in Islam will tell you that they love death way more than they care about children. In fact, in Islam children are cannon fodder.
here
here
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 9:26 AM
Uh, no. There are those who will tell you that, but being a believer in Islam does not equate to believing that. Mansour Ijaz, Hamid Karzai, Kamal Nawash, King Abdullah of Jordan, and Irshad Manji are but a few examples. Steven Emerson is another.
Do you think these people love death and don’t care about children?
Now, you can argue that they’re somehow not Muslims, but you’ll have to take that up with them.
Pablo on June 26, 2007 at 10:04 AM
Pablo. You mention mino’s. Muslims in name only. I am not in the least bit fooled by any such lame attempts to gloss over Islam. Read the Koran. I’ve tried. It is hard to read. There is a lot of nonsense and gibberish between the “good” parts. I have a real hard time believing that your examples are anything but minos. Muslims in name only. Or do you think that educated Muslims truly believe this:
“Gabriel brings to the sun a garment of luminosity from the light of Allah’s Throne according to the measure of the hours of the day. The garment is longer in the summer and shorter in the winter, and of intermediate length in autumn and spring. The sun puts on that garment as one of you here puts on his clothes.”
“When the sun rises upon its chariot from one of those springs it is accompanied by 360 angels with outspread wings…. When Allah wishes to test the sun and the moon, showing His servants a sign and thereby getting them to obey, the sun tumbles from the chariot and falls into the deep end of that ocean. When Allah wants to increase the significance of the sign and frighten His servants severely, all of the sun falls and nothing of it remains in the chariot. That is a total eclipse of the sun. It is a misfortune for the sun.’” Lol.
“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘The Hell Fire complained to its Lord saying, “O my Lord! My different parts are eating each other up.” So, He allowed it to take two breaths, one in winter, the other in summer. This is the reason for the severe heat and bitter cold you find in weather.’”
“Then the Prophet said: ‘For the sun and the moon, Allah created easts and wests on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven. There are 180 springs in the west of black clay-this is why Allah’s word says: “He found the sun setting in a muddy spring.” [18:86] The black clay bubbles and boils like a pot when it boils furiously.’”
Of course Mohammed knew that if people thought about the idiocy of Islam, they would refute it. So he commanded this:
Qur’an 5:101 “Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.”
Qur’an 5:102 “Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.”
Oh the hilarity. True muslims MUST state all of these as facts or they are apostates and we all know what happens to appostates.
Qur’an 33:36 “It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them by Allah and His Messenger. They have no option. If any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a wrong Path.”
Qur’an 87:10 “He who fears will mind.”
Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”
“The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”
“I heard the Prophet saying, ‘Islam cannot change!’”
Jeez dude. Stop apologizing for terrorists. Idiotic terrorists at that. Islam is a proven lie. If a Muslim were to say that mohammed was wrong or lied about any of these things then he would be in grave danger. I’ve lived in Iraq off and on for the last 2 years. I’ve brought these subjects up with Muslims before. I’ve only received 2 responses so far. Denial that these verses exist (most Muslims I have talked with have never read the Koran or other Islamic writings)or a fearful changing of the subject.
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 11:28 AM
That’s your characterization of them, Guardian. Again, you’ll need to convince them of that, not me.
Meanwhile, there’s a bell curve here. And if there isn’t, who the hell are we fighting for in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Pablo on June 26, 2007 at 11:33 AM
MINO’s, then? How many of the billion plus are such?
Pablo on June 26, 2007 at 11:34 AM
Pablo
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 11:52 AM
another
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 11:56 AM
Among the ordinary Muslims, one can find a very negligible percent who is really knowledgeable in real theological features of Islam
Right. So what are the rest? MINO’s?
Pablo on June 26, 2007 at 12:40 PM
Quite simply, I would say that millions of Muslims are mino’s in that they don’t believe any of the Islamic garbage but are too terrified to say so. True Muslims are terrorists by default. It is required of them. Ever have a muslim friend? If you answer yes then that person is a mino because:
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
True Muslims will never call you friend.
Qur’an 8:24 “O Believers! Answer Allah and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life [martyrdom]…. Fear the affliction and trial that awaits those who do not obey. Allah is severe.”
Qur’an 4:115 “If anyone contradicts or opposes the Messenger [not Allah] after guidance has been conveyed to him, and follows a path other than the way, We shall burn him in Hell!”
“The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 12:59 PM
It’s kind of like how Protestants think Catholics aren’t real Christians and Catholics think Protestants aren’t real Christians either. You’re sitting on the side saying which is right and which isn’t.
Nonfactor on June 26, 2007 at 1:08 PM
Exactly. But if you ask them, they’ll swear to Allah that they’re Muslim believers, and they’ll mean it. They are where the hope lies. They are why we’re still in Iraq and Afghanistan and why those places aren’t 99.9% rubble.
Nonfactor, are you taking a pass on that question upthread? And if so, do you see any reason why anyone should answer your moral questions as opposed to just ignoring you?
Pablo on June 26, 2007 at 1:16 PM
nonfactor. I am not saying anything about Islam is right. The facts speak for themselves. I merely present the facts as they are written in the Koran. I love it when supporters of Islam try to defend it by trying to change the subject to Christianity. It shows that Islam is indefendable. To compare Christianity in any denomination to Islam is absurd. You wouldn’t be a Muslim by chance would you?
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 1:19 PM
I’m not “changing the subject” I’m comparing what you are saying to what Christians say about each other. I think both Muslims and Christians are crazy. I’m simply making an observation. Some “Christians” claim other “Christians” aren’t true “Christians”–who is correct? Same thing with Muslims.
Nonfactor on June 26, 2007 at 1:24 PM
nonfactor. Not even close. When was the last time you saw a bunch of Catholics stoning to death someone who left Catholicism for another denomination?
Guardian on June 26, 2007 at 1:33 PM
When did I say Christians were more dangerous than radical Muslims? I simply said they were both crazy. And what does this have to do with the fact that you think violent Muslims are the only true Muslims?
Nonfactor on June 26, 2007 at 1:44 PM
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