Video: KP rips Rudy for inauthenticity, sniffs at GOP ire over amnesty
posted at 1:43 pm on June 6, 2007 by Allahpundit
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He’s inauthentic. This from a woman who supports Hillary Clinton notwithstanding the Glacier’s own shifting opinions on Iraq that just so happen to coincide with shifting public opinion, notwithstanding her sad, solemn pronouncements about how “tragic” abortion is while rolling up a 100% rating from NARAL for five years running, notwithstanding the multitude of petty personal deceptions and image “makeovers” she’s had over the years from her stupid accent to the evolving surname to her apocryphal attempt to enlist in the Marines to the “I was named after Edmund Hillary” garbage to, yes, even the Cubs fan/Yankee fan vacillation. She’s the most two-faced character in the race and indistinct from Giuliani on the pro-life issue that seems to matter most to KP, but she’s a Democrat so she gets a pass while Rudy’s derided as a phony and a “dictator” in the making. As reasonable as she is, this has always been KP’s blind spot — she rails endlessly about Republican hypocrisy but can’t see it when it comes from a Democrat. What about the Democrats who screamed for privacy when the GOP was after Clinton but now support outing closeted conservative gays? What about the Democrats who say that Bush should have targeted Saudi Arabia after 9/11 instead of Iraq when we all know that if he had targeted the Kingdom, they’d be screaming that he attacked the cradle of Islam, the land of the two holy mosques, that he did it all for oil, etc? What about the Democrats who call right-wingers “chickenhawks” even though most of them backed the war in Afghanistan and didn’t go running off to enlist? What about the Democrats who screeched about the falsehoods in “Path to 9/11″ and couldn’t give less of a shinola about the falsehoods in “Fahrenheit 9/11,” which has actually been used in enemy propaganda? What about the Democrats who call themselves feminists and pro-gay yet look the other way when Islamist savages beat women and kill homosexuals in the Middle East? What about the Democrats who weep for genocide in Darfur but shrug at the prospect of it in Baghdad? And on and on and on. But then, what’s all that compared to Rudy having donated to Planned Parenthood?
As for her point about applause for McCain last night signifying some sort of ambivalence among Republicans about amnesty, she must be joking. Here’s the Times transcript; Tancredo got applause when he called for ending legal immigration. Ron Paul got applause for saying we should pull out of Iraq ASAP. They all got applause — that’s what happens when you have supporters in the audience. She’s trying to equate the Republican outrage towards McCain now to what it was (or wasn’t) toward the universe of GOP incumbents last November, but that analogy doesn’t wash for the simple reason that McCain is the face of amnesty in the Senate. It’s one thing to go to the polls and hold an open-borders vote against some no-name congressman from your district whom you’ve never heard of, but McCain is a national figure who’s consistently championed this position to the mounting anger of conservatives he’s betrayed on too many issues. And now he’s doing it again — in the middle of a presidential run, with snide accusations of bad faith among his opponents, practically daring us to punish him for it. Well, here’s a newsflash: he’s finished as a serious candidate and it’s for precisely this issue. I can’t believe she doesn’t understand that.
Maybe it’s time to give Crazy Jane Fleming another chance.
Update: KP e-mails to remind me that she had plenty to say about Democrats outing gay Republicans last year, including calling Rick Ellensburg “ridiculous.” Duly noted.
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“Maybe it’s time to give Crazy Jane Fleming another chance.”
Er, but imagine what gems she’ll have about this…
Alex K on June 6, 2007 at 1:48 PM
How much worse could they be? I’m tired of this endless frigging whining about hypocrisy. Her party floats in an ocean of hypocrisy and all she can do is yell about Giuliani and abortion.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 1:50 PM
That rant is a thing of beauty, AP.
The media cannot seem to acknowledge what makes McCain unpopular with the base is the same thing that makes him so popular with the punditry.
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 1:51 PM
Love–thin line–Hate.
Alex K on June 6, 2007 at 1:52 PM
Wow. *gets you a beer*
Tanya on June 6, 2007 at 1:53 PM
I’m really goddamned aggravated about it. If even the “fair” Democrats can’t be fair, what’s the point in talking to them at all?
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 1:53 PM
If they allowed themselves to believe that so many Americans are what they consider to be beyond-the-pale racist, they would go crazy. They have to tell themselves open borders is the majority position.
Alex K on June 6, 2007 at 1:54 PM
Damn Allah, did that Hitch clip from yesterday inspire you? You really took KP to task in that rant.
Bad Candy on June 6, 2007 at 1:58 PM
OUCH!!
KP probably secretly loves Rudy and maybe even voted for him over Dinkins, but like thousands of other liberals who almost certainly did the same, she can’t admit it because she would be ostracized by her peers. She has to diss Rudy to maintain her street cred.
Don’t get me wrong though – not defending her and I think your charge of her having a blind spot and her incredulousness about Republicans being ambivalent about amnesty are right on.
thirteen28 on June 6, 2007 at 1:59 PM
I don’t like KP. Like Alex said, there’s a thin line. She pushed me over it.
amerpundit on June 6, 2007 at 1:59 PM
Come on. Chesty mctalkingpoints? She’s just a robot. She does have a pair of positives that’s I’d fully, uh, support; but other than that. What is there really?
Just face it, AP, staring at the other side of the aisle for a date just isn’t workin’ out for ya :(
lorien1973 on June 6, 2007 at 1:59 PM
Maybe she likes Gore. You know, he invented the internet.
amerpundit on June 6, 2007 at 2:00 PM
At this point, I’d have to say there is no point because far too many Democrats aren’t interested in being “fair,” they’re interested in seeing one of their own in the White House.
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 2:00 PM
Very true, I mean, she’s gotta recognize the blatant hyposcrisy you posted, doesn’t she? Or maybe its just the magic of liberal doublethink, and even KP can’t resist indulging in it from time to time.
Bad Candy on June 6, 2007 at 2:01 PM
Not in a MILLION years. Jane phlem is just that, crazy. She hasn’t heard a single word in a decade, yet spouts crazy lefty rhetoric non-stop.
KP at least listens to half of reality based thinking.
They (dems/left) use the empty rant because they do NOT HAVE real issues to stand on. Morally, the Dems are totally bankrupt and its showing up like a bad sore on Ms. Phelps face.
shooter on June 6, 2007 at 2:02 PM
Dang!
kahall on June 6, 2007 at 2:02 PM
Damn Allah, nice work.
BillyRayValentine on June 6, 2007 at 2:03 PM
AP gets banned for a week.
shooter on June 6, 2007 at 2:04 PM
Damn I cant listen to this at work. Should really hear it before commenting.
Dash on June 6, 2007 at 2:04 PM
What galls me most of all is that most of her anti-Rudy sentiment seems to come from his position on social issues, abortion first and foremost. Yet she’ll traipse down to the voting booth next November and gladly pull the lever for Hillary NARAL Clinton. Newsflash for KP: there’s at least a chance that Giuliani will appoint Roberts and Alito types to the Supreme Court. There’s no chance Hillary will. Do the math.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 2:05 PM
Damn, AP, I wish I could write like that when I’m PO’d.
KelliD on June 6, 2007 at 2:06 PM
NOW can I go back to calling her the “blonde badger”?
tickleddragon on June 6, 2007 at 2:07 PM
I’m going to stand back and give you room, after I point out that Edwards is a pretty strong contender for that title.
see-dubya on June 6, 2007 at 2:10 PM
It is about time AP got passionate about something other than Rosie. Good job AP keep it up.
Wade on June 6, 2007 at 2:11 PM
Heh, too true.
Allah, didn’t KP work for the Clintons? Maybe she’s looking to score a new gig on the White House?
Bad Candy on June 6, 2007 at 2:13 PM
Yes, that’s true *if* you believe Edwards’s hard-leftism isn’t sincere. I’m not so sure anymore.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 2:14 PM
I’ll go further still. I’m wondering if anything about Edwards’ public persona is sincere.
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 2:16 PM
Actually, I think you’re right, I think he is a hardcore leftist crank…you win!
Bad Candy on June 6, 2007 at 2:17 PM
KP ripping others for inauthenticity. Uh-huh.
Ian on June 6, 2007 at 2:17 PM
Edwards’ ridiculous presentation might give the impression that his actual positions are fake too, but I dont think they are.
Alex K on June 6, 2007 at 2:21 PM
I think she understands it, and is counting on it. She’s a Democratic Strategeryist. It is in her candidate’s best interest to knock out a potential opponent in the general election that would provide a greater challenge. It is also in her candidate’s best interest to talk up an opponent that will fail to resonate with his base, and therefore increase her candidate’s chances of electoral victory.
Even cute, reasonable sounding scorpions should not be transported across bodies of water. We all know how the story ends… it’s in their nature…
rw on June 6, 2007 at 2:21 PM
Double OUCH!!
thirteen28 on June 6, 2007 at 2:27 PM
Hell hath no fury like a pundit blogger scorned.
SilverStar830 on June 6, 2007 at 2:31 PM
Ha. If that’s what this was about, this blog would be nothing but angry rants towards female bloggers and pundits. It’s more like, “Hell hath no fury like a pundit blogger who expects better from people he respects.”
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 2:33 PM
Bring it on!
Alex K on June 6, 2007 at 2:36 PM
True, but his hair has a tendency to cover the other face.
amerpundit on June 6, 2007 at 2:40 PM
She’s a former VP at AOL and AOL/Time Warner…she must be loaded.
I think she’s hot too.
SillyRyno on June 6, 2007 at 2:47 PM
Wow. That was about as beautiful a rant as I’ve seen in a long time.
And, for the record, I share your frustration, Allah. I rather like Kirsten too (for a Dem), but I just can’t deal with her blind spots, much less understand them.
Misha I on June 6, 2007 at 2:57 PM
*sniff* Just beautiful…
lan astaslem on June 6, 2007 at 2:59 PM
Well, what makes me mad, is abortion is such an overblown issue. The president can’t reverse abortion. The president can appoint Supreme Court justices, but come on…..
Does anyone really think the Supreme Court will reverse the decision? Out of all the problems the President has to deal with, just how high is abortion on that list?
The media and the Left like to keep pushing these emotional issues, knowing that it divides people. I’m pro-life, but there are way too many things I look for in a president before I ever get to his or her stance on abortion. The whole issue is getting out of hand, and it distracts everyone from the real important issues. Which is the point, I suppose.
reaganaut on June 6, 2007 at 2:59 PM
Like I stated the other day, she says just enough “good” stuff to stay on the air at Fox, but she is hardcore Democrat, a leftist. She walks the partyline when it counts, but teases Fox with her pretend distaste with meaningless policy. She would cleanse Hillary’s feet and wipe them with oil to be close to her. Hillary is her (and most other dems women) messiah.
right2bright on June 6, 2007 at 3:02 PM
Edwards strikes me as a somewhat less gifted Bill Clinton.
Some of Edwards is calculation, but another part seems to be a lack of systematic thinking about any given subject: e.g., Two Americas vs a gratuitously large home and work at/investment in a hedge fund. On the other hand, he may not see an inconsistency here because he view remedies to poverty as a task of gov’t rather than of individual citizens. Maybe that explains a lot of progressive personal hypocrisy. Doesn’t do much to take the edge off of what AP rails about.
jaychandra on June 6, 2007 at 3:03 PM
Nice rant, and you summarized a big part of the reason I have moved from being a young liberal to a not so young conservative. The hypocrisy. These are the same people that claim to be The Party of Civil Rights, then throw oreoes at Michael Steele, and call Condi and Colin Powell Uncle Tom’s for not being part of their party. They claim to be the party of women’s rights, and support as serial sexual harasser as president. The only thing democrats care about anymore is their own personal power.
coyoterex on June 6, 2007 at 3:03 PM
So True. Excellent post from you today.
KP really got under your skin on this one.
Lawrence on June 6, 2007 at 3:08 PM
Sure that wasn’t Allah who called into the show and pissed off KP? “Mexican Indians” I’ve never heard that term used. Sounded as if it was designed to piss off KP. Caller Tom=Allah with a deep brooklyn accent?
Drtuddle on June 6, 2007 at 3:10 PM
At least KP has come out as a Rosie non-fan…
Jim Treacher on June 6, 2007 at 3:16 PM
What’s Fair Got To Do With It
You must understand
That the truth of your rant
Makes my pulse react
That it`s only the thrill
Of boy meeting girl
Opposites attract
With apologies to Tina Turner.
PattyAnn on June 6, 2007 at 3:24 PM
KP seems pretty reasonable most of the time, but at the end of the day, she’s a democratic strategist. That trumps all.
bmac on June 6, 2007 at 3:31 PM
Alas, we are all just racists to Kirsten if we oppose illegal immigration and are concerned about absorbing 10, 20, 30, 40M people who show no interest in assimilating. We are racists if we are concerned by hundreds of thousand of people marching in the streets with foreign flags. We are bigots if we lament what is happening to our brothers and sisters in the trades who are being squeezed out by illegals undercutting their wages. We are bashing Mexicans if we are concerned that greedy capitalists are shifting their true labor costs onto the taxpaying citizens of this country. We are anti-immigrant if we worry about the Nation’s ability to provide entitlements to a massive underclass. We are racists if our government wants to allow gang members to become citizens. etc, etc, etc. Please. Spare me.
TheBigOldDog on June 6, 2007 at 3:35 PM
AP, superb post. The most troubling fact is not just a personal hypocracy, but the reality of where can the two sides even meet anymore? Especially at a time when the left is swinging in nutrootville.
Spirit of 1776 on June 6, 2007 at 3:41 PM
And you didn’t even mention Darfur vs Iraq…
Bryan on June 6, 2007 at 3:45 PM
I did so.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 3:46 PM
Oh, guess I missed it. That’s quite a forest of rant you’ve got there.
Bryan on June 6, 2007 at 3:48 PM
Ah yes, I see it now.
Bryan on June 6, 2007 at 3:49 PM
Ditto. Thanks AP.
nailinmyeye on June 6, 2007 at 3:53 PM
Heh.
Bad Candy on June 6, 2007 at 3:54 PM
Heh, I’m glad you all liked it since I probably destroyed whatever modest sense of friendship exists between KP and me in posting it.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 3:54 PM
The racism card is so over-played, that people are no longer as intimidated as they were, even eight years ago. Those of us who care about this nation need to make clear to Republicans that there is no point is supporting them financially or with votes if they do not move away from the Democrats on this issue.
In 1988, the Democrats tried to claim talking about crime was racist (remember Willie Horton). The public knew better.
doufree on June 6, 2007 at 3:56 PM
If she can’t handle you calling her on the carpet for statements made on the radio, then it’s not much of a friendship anyway. Honesty is better than flattery.
Spirit of 1776 on June 6, 2007 at 3:57 PM
It’s nothing that some chocolate and a card that sings “Walking on Sunshine” can’t solve.
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 3:57 PM
Ha. Nah, she’ll be mad for awhile and then she’ll need me to help her post something to YouTube or whatever and she’ll e-mail and say, “Hey! How you doing?”
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 3:59 PM
Haha. On the plus side, it feels good to be wanted.
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 4:01 PM
Eh, not if you know it’s just a means to an end.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 4:02 PM
It always is, AP. It always is…
(If my wife reads this, I was just kidding honey..you know, guy joking and stuff…ha ha ha?)
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 4:04 PM
But the president sets the legislative agenda doesn’t he?
Hrmmm, not a westminster style parliment, so I guess not…
Shouldn’t they be focusing on things the Presidential candidates can do, rather than thinking that he’s going to ban things by fiat.
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on June 6, 2007 at 4:06 PM
I agree it’s a good piece of writing by AP.
I would say, though, that we all probably suffer from blind spots regarding the people we like. More willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, consider changing positions “evolving” rather than “pandering”, etc. If Kirsten is close to the Clintons it shouldn’t be surprising that she sees Sen. Clinton through rosier glasses. She’s human; can’t expect her to be perfect.
mikeyboss on June 6, 2007 at 4:06 PM
I know.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 4:08 PM
kirsten powers has always been out of her league
wryteacher on June 6, 2007 at 4:15 PM
The Top Ten Things I Loved About This Rant
10. Pointing out the blinding hypocrisy of Democrats is always good fun.
9. You said “Goddamned”. Heh.
8. It always hurts the most when you point out that you used to respect their opinions, but now you realize that you were wrong: they suck.
7. I laughed; I cried. It was so beautiful.
6. Bryan couldn’t even read the whole thing. Heh.
5. KP was the closest thing we had to a thinking Democrat, and even she deserved this. Apparently there is no such thing.
4. The first paragraph of The Rant took up a page and a half on my monitor screen.
3. You got banned by three of your own commenters for religious profanity.
2. You had commenter’s remorse within an hour, and
1. “Maybe it’s time to give Crazy Jane Fleming another chance.” You put KP on the bench in favor of Chesty McTalkingPoints.
Heh.
Jaibones on June 6, 2007 at 4:16 PM
No she hasn’t. There’s no need for blanket statements like that.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 4:17 PM
Honestly, though, she plays hardball once in awhile. Politics is politics, friendship is friendship.
Slublog on June 6, 2007 at 4:17 PM
Yup. There’s always room for a partisan shot at the other guy, and Rudy’s a big target. So be it.
Jaibones on June 6, 2007 at 4:21 PM
I’m not complaining about her taking partisan shots. I’m complaining about her taking hypocritical partisan shots. When she stops backing candidates who bear the Emily’s List seal of approval on their foreheads, I’ll start taking her complaints about Rudy’s pro-choice stance seriously.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 4:23 PM
Not a chance. A rant like this springs from raw emotion. If you didn’t care about KP or her opinion, it would have gotten short shrift:
And as could be expected from yet another in the long list of vaccilating lefties…
Or something of the like. Your thorough address of the issue shows EVERYBODY here that your feelings run more to:
KP, say it ain’t so!
She’ll be flattered, in the long run. After the wounds heal.
Freelancer on June 6, 2007 at 4:24 PM
This is indeed one of the better Allahpundit pieces I’ve read here.
Apparently getting him pissed at KP – and rightfully so – got his creative juices flowing.
I feel you, dawg. That strange blindness to Democrat hypocrisy seems integral to all Democrats, even the most moderate and reasonable. I’m personally stunned at how so many are reponding to Mr. $90K in the Freezer’s indictment.
After going after Lott and Cunningham and Delay … they don’t even see their own rank hypocrisy in ignoring much more serious charges from Democrats.
KP’s just showing her true colors. But, damn … it is really, really hard not to laugh at a Hillary Clinton supporter calling ANYBODY else “inauthentic.”
When Rudy fakes a Japanese accent or something … maybe then she’ll have a point. Until then, Hillary is the undisputed welter-weight champeen of all things phony. She makes John Edwards seem authentic.
Professor Blather on June 6, 2007 at 4:27 PM
If even the “fair” Democrats can’t be fair, what’s the point in talking to them at all?
Wow. Just feel the love.
Seriously though, it’s way past time to call these people on their crap.
Physics Geek on June 6, 2007 at 4:29 PM
I think she is undercover lefty liberal trying to walk in both worlds!
“I’m the only one who can walk in both worlds. I’m Ghost Rider.”
Drtuddle on June 6, 2007 at 4:35 PM
I don’t, I think she’s just willing to engage in the most egregious doublethink you can to cheer for her side. She’s a liberal first, and always will be, despite her personal heterodoxies. She’s a Democrat Consultant, that’s what she does.
Bad Candy on June 6, 2007 at 4:39 PM
Maybe. If it isn’t a case of use.
I think she deserves credit for saying things that are not popular with her party and that should allow for some personal credibility, which makes the hypocracy all the more biting.
Spirit of 1776 on June 6, 2007 at 4:57 PM
Boom!! A pre-emptive call on BS … love it.
Man, you are on a serious roll today. In this thread you are to KP what Hitchens was to Hedges on the other thread. For just as good reasons I’d add.
thirteen28 on June 6, 2007 at 5:01 PM
Who is this KP person?
Thank Allah I kicked the TV habit.
Jose Chupacabra on June 6, 2007 at 5:08 PM
KP is a liberal siren, luring conservative bloggers and blog readers to the rocky shoals of the liberal agenda…
Either get the Boss to spring for a mast equipped with a keyboard to which you can be lashed, or enlist Levy as your backseater the next time that KP guests on Red Eye and give this a try.
rw on June 6, 2007 at 5:22 PM
Usually think KP is pretty thoughtful in what she has to say. For some reason, she must really have it in for Rudy, and I of course disagree with her. Out of all the candidates, Rudy’s the one I like the most.
And her point about McCain getting lots of cheers. So what? Ron Paul was getting tons of cheers last night. Does anyone think he has any chance?
As for McCain, sadly, I think he’s just too much of an old man right now. 8 years ago he was fine. Now, he’s just showing his age, and I don’t think America is going to vote for an old man.
asc85 on June 6, 2007 at 5:23 PM
What the hell? KP is largely correct! There is nothing conservative about Rudy Guilliani. Everybody seems to have fallen in love with his persona but fail to look at what he’s done.
He’s pro-life, pro same-sex marriage, questionable as to which way he’d go in making judicial appointments and questionable as to how he’d approach raising taxes.
Yeah, he comes off as tough and smart but it is a liberal tough and smart. For chrissakes, he’s from New York City!
Conservative? Give me a break.
Check his bona fides.
thegreatbeast on June 6, 2007 at 5:25 PM
A cute liberal democrat is still a liberal democrat.
Don’t be fooled by the dimples.
Labamigo on June 6, 2007 at 5:25 PM
It sounds like KP knows a threat when she sees one. She knows McCain doesn’t stand a chance and that Rudy does. She’s just trying to de-strategize for the other side of the aisle.
It’s fear AP, nothing but fear.
Roark on June 6, 2007 at 5:27 PM
But that’s not the point.
Sure – everything you bring up is worth debating.
But if you decide to start the debate by declaring your allegiance to Hillary Clinton and THEN announcing that Guiliani isn’t “authentic” … well, I’ll be too busy laughing to hear the rest.
KP’s massive hypocrisy here is vastly overshadowing the substance of her opinions. YOU might be able to argue that Rudy is “inauthentic.” For KP to do it – especially on abortion for Pete’s sake – is laughable.
Professor Blather on June 6, 2007 at 5:49 PM
Glad you said that, b/c that’s the real point of AP’s statement, not defending Guiliani.
Spirit of 1776 on June 6, 2007 at 5:53 PM
What Blather said.
To call Rudy inauthentic while supporting Hillary is exhibit A of the blind spot mentioned in the orginal post.
thirteen28 on June 6, 2007 at 6:04 PM
Dude – did you read the post?
nailinmyeye on June 6, 2007 at 6:39 PM
I would like to think KP is professional and mature enough to take your criticism without any hard feelings. Your post was a point by point list of what you disagree with her about and it was both fair and constructive IMO. I can only imagine what is said about her by other Dems and I imagine it isn’t nearly as fair or constructive.
Yakko77 on June 6, 2007 at 7:18 PM
AP,
I suppose you and KP won’t be dating then, eh?
;-) ;-) ;-)
TwinkietheKid on June 6, 2007 at 7:40 PM
I’ve been on the road all day and just came across this thread but it’s ironic that Allah posted it today because I was just having the same feelings about KP this morning listening to her on “Brian and the Judge” (sitting in for the Judge). She was so condescending and unserious on immigration, just basically saying that anyone against the bill hated Mexicans, and that everyone deserves a right to be a citizen in this country, with no preference for an Einstein over a migrant worker, that I had to turn it off.
Dudley Smith on June 6, 2007 at 8:52 PM
Hah. Nah, she’s out of my league anyway.
Allahpundit on June 6, 2007 at 8:53 PM
Dude. I hate to pick fights with pessimists, but how do you figure that? Sure, she’s a cutie, but all women are better looking then guys! :) Intellect? You can go toe-to-toe with the best of them. Ya’ll might be in different leagues b/c of your views on life, but not out of.
Spirit of 1776 on June 6, 2007 at 9:09 PM
And, to make matters worse, she’s pushing 40 while you are still a young buck at what..32? 33?
I’ll take care of the Cougars, Allah. You stick to the 20-somethings.
KP, let’s do lunch.
Jack M. on June 6, 2007 at 9:32 PM
AP,
As an accomplished ranter myself, I must say you have set the watermark for all future rants.
Niiiiice!
csdeven on June 6, 2007 at 9:52 PM
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