I believe that we will see this history repeat itself – we will have to endure the daily depressive drumbeat of the Democrat Party in power for some time, before the return of common sense in the RNC…. or maybe the demise of the RNC and the return of the Whigs.

gmcjetpilot on June 3, 2007 at 12:04 AM

As if ANY of the participants here pay ANY attention to ANYTHING that you say, troll.

Some of you are incapable of a coherent debate on facts and go into mass panic, hysteria and partisanship BS like georgej & Lehosh spew; you are a NUT BAG’s, right wing-nuts. Calm down, take the meds or something. Clearly it becomes so appairent those who have nothing intelligent or honest to say, when discussing such a complicated issue.

Clearly MOST Americans want the boarder secured first and foremost, absolutly with out anything else, except enforcing existing rules of law. Why is the government doing something else?

Its not a Liberal, Dem, Conservative or GOP thing.

The real question is most Americans want to start a draw down from Iraq. Most Americans want a secured boarder first. WHY IS THE GOVERNMENT NOT IN SYNC? BUSH.

Its about time you right wingers see that Bush, a republican, is a terrible leader that is out of touch and not a competent leader. Let’s CUT the partisan crap and give Washington hell as a united voice.

For all you lock step republican worshiping loyalist, I hope you now realize no one party, politician or President is holier than thou and has a monopoly on all the good ideas. If we don’t work together and debate the facts verses talking points, rhetoric and propaganda, we as a nation are in trouble.

When you look at the economics the “cheap labor” is not cheap and is subsidized by you and me. The people that use this cheap labor want it. Mexico wants it. However most Americans don’t want up up to 30,000 million poor and uneducated people to come here and drain medicare and social security. Call me racist but America for Americans fist before immigrants, legal or not.

Now our own Republican administration is using the lefts tactics of personal attacks when we disagree with them on immigration. Linda Chavez spoke the words below. She is technically a conservative although the words could have come from the mouth of a…

IF YOU’RE AGAINST FOR OPEN BORDERS…YOU JUST MIGHT BE AN OUT-OF-TOUCH ELITIST BIG BUSINESS FRAT BOY’S WINDOW DRESSING.

That being said, Half my family is Mexican by birth and marriage and one was killed when in an altercation with police.

Finally, that isn’t the reason we don’t want them. We don’t want welfare/social service leeches to come to the US and use us. This means we don’t want uneducated failures to immigrate. One of by dearest friends is named Eduardo Z. He is here on a Student Visa. He has learned English and earned his education. He is about to get his degree in Civil Engineering. He offered to even work for the Military as an Engineer for 4 years just so he could get permanent status and the chance to become a US citizen.

Guess what, Linda?! He doesn’t qualify to stay in the US with this crappy bill. He will be forced to return. A guy who actually would pay more taxes than he uses, unlike 80%+ of the Mexicans who are presently here.

President Bush, without so much as issuing a press statement, on May 9 signed a directive that granted near dictatorial powers to the office of the president in the event of a national emergency declared by the president.

It’s not the culture that causes the problem I don’t think, it’s the massive corruption that causes the poverty. If someone could show me that it was the culture that was bringing the poverty, perhaps I would assign more personal responsibility to those escaping.

pedestrian on May 31, 2007 at 8:00 PM

OK… so… what makes it OK to be corrupt? The idea that everyone else is doing it? and I won’t get caught? Large scale coruption IS a sign of the moral decay of the CULTURE. Its the breakdown of right vs. wrong… and illegal vs. legal. If the culture does not have a way to shame or otherwise bring to heal those who are corrupt, then the society is doomed…

So, now, you bring in MILLIONS of people raised and indoctrinated in a corrupt society, and then wonder why it creates problems?

EVERY illegal immigrant who works in America not only broke the law to get here, but also breaks laws by working. Either they are NOT paying taxes, or are using identity theft to work…. further corruption. These people being here and Bush and Co not really enforcing the laws leads to employers using them (cause everyone else does), thus leading to MORE CORRUPTION!

So, we have a corrupt society, infecting our society, with further corruption…

Get it?

if I lived there the first I would do leave

Yup that’s just what the first Americans did, they just up and left and there never was a United States of America.

Tyrants are everywhere, defeat them or suffer tyranny, our founders didn’t need a classroom to figure that one out.
They paid the original price for freedom and now we’re being swindled out of the precious gift passed on to us to be preserved at all cost and passed on to our children for safe keeping at all cost.
I don’t think the Founders cared about being called nativist even a little bit.
The right to preserve foundations and culture was paid for in blood throughout our history, we don’t need to feel guilty in laying claim to our own nation.

Is it easy? Hell no tyranny dies hard and the sooner Mexicans won’t tolerate tyranny and pay the price like we have over and over the sooner Mexico with all her natural resources and great tourist destinations will be a first world country.
We can’t do it for them and taking the pressure off by accepting millions of people who would be freedom fighters in their own country isn’t working either.

Mexicans must decide for themselves not to be quasi slaves in their own nation any longer and take that matter into their own hands.

Nobody I’ve read is against increasing legal immigration.

Now you have … immigration should be minimized, if not halted completely for anywhere from 5-10 years or longer. This nation needs to rebuild internally and importing the rest of the world here just doesn’t cut it.

March for America Events June 14, 15, 16

March for America June 14, 15, 16 Washington D.C. and state capitols across the country. Be there or be without a country.

http://www.lframerica.com/march2.html

I think the bill being proposed is a reasonable compromise to tighen the border, increase allowed immigration, and treat the people who are already here humanely.

Pedestrian

Let me pile on some more. But what makes any sane person think that this will tighten our borders? Bush has refused to enforce existing laws. Last year he was compelled by law to build a fence. He hasn’t. Regardless of what enforcement provisions are in the bill, he will use signing statements and executive authority to ensure that there is no enforcement.

Nobody I’ve read is against increasing legal immigration. So, your second point is irrelevant.

This bill will not treat the underclass here more humanely. This law is deja vu all over again: 1965 and 1986 redux. Same old argument we heard back then, but things are somehow much worse now. “But…but…but it’ll work this time. Really it will!” History and common sense prove you wrong.

It’s not the culture that causes the problem I don’t think, it’s the massive corruption that causes the poverty.

pedestrian

Respectfully, I think your logic breaks down. You are right to say that it is the corruption that causes the problem (along with lack of private property rights). This innate corruption is based upon certain classes being above the law or having undue control over the government. And although you can argue that they are trying to escape this environment, they are actually exporting that same corruption of lawlessness.

If immigrants come here and assimilate to successful Western values, that gives them hope of escaping poverty. More and more, they come here and form their own enclaves and fail to assimilate. They demand that we change our ways to welcome them: Anti-American Hispanic studies are rampant in our universities; many (probably most) of them do not pay taxes or have insurance; they have out-of-control illegitimacy and crime rates. Helping people escape poverty is one thing; adopting impoverishing ways is another.

Along the lines of immorality, it is wholly immoral for our lawmakers to ignore and flaunt the law (you rightly argue that corruption is the impoverishing agent in Mexico). It is immoral for them to bring in an underclass who are treated like indentured servants and paid well below a socially just wage. It is immoral that we trap our own citizens in poverty and welfare by establishing an underclass. And it is wrong that we are called a bunch of racists rather than debated on these issues.

there are nazis in the border enforsement movement.
Communists, Traitors, and Islamic Terrorists support the Democratic Party.

What’s your point?

Lehosh on May 31, 2007 at 4:22 PM

well, and nazis when it comes to the anti-war anti-”zionist” stuff. the thing is that i don’t think that’s a winning quality of the mainstream left; that they have a half-hidden symbiotic relationship with radical murdercrats.

i wasn’t even suggesting that the fact that neo-nazis and the like insinuate themselves into the border issue reflects meaningfully on the rest of the people concerned about it in and of itself. i do think it shouldn’t be glibly passed over. the mainstream of the border enforcement movement should be proactive in alienating them and crafting it’s rhetoric to alienate them from the discussion, that’s all.

when instead the reaction is “no, you’re racist” or “what racists?” or worst of all, “so you’re calling me a racist?”, the effect is to circle the wagons in such a way as to include the radicals.

that’s the way i see it and the way i see the left. for the duration of the cold war liberals would refuse to condemn communists and work with them openly. when called on it, their mantra was “there’s no such thing as ‘communists’. why are you calling me names?” this is the sort of bs i will always regard as an affirmation of affiliation and affinity, regardless of who’s doing it.

Why should Mexicans get favorable status over an African who hails from far worse conditions? Isn’t it racist to focus only on the selfish desires of Mexicans when Black Africans have more dire conditions AND have to wait in line at the Visa counter, buy airline tickets and scrape around to make to the US?

naliaka on May 31, 2007 at 8:52 AM

We can’t fix every problem now, but that doesn’t mean we have to turn away every person who shows up at our border. I think the bill being proposed is a reasonable compromise to tighen the border, increase allowed immigration, and treat the people who are already here humanely. There are no doubt flaws in the bill, but they are being discussed here. Most of the comments here are wild exaggerations of how unconstitutional this is (it’s an adjustment to existing law), how Bush is a stupid evil genius, how the country will be destroyed by this. If I wanted that I’d be reading DU.

David Frum writes, “It’s Divorce”:That’s what has happened between President Bush and his party over this immigration bill. And if they insist on pursuing it, I fear it is what will happen between the Senate GOP leadership and the party……

So according to your logic and argument, enforcing our borders is immoral? Just wanted to get a clarification here!

SSG Fuzzy on May 31, 2007 at 3:03 PM

As has been pointed out by others, much of Mexico is a filthy mess, and if I lived there the first I would do leave. If I had kids there it would be near unbearable to me to raise them there. So I have a lot of sympathy for everyone there who does just that. Considering how messed up US legal immigration is, it’s no wonder so many don’t bother and just cross the border.

It’s not the culture that causes the problem I don’t think, it’s the massive corruption that causes the poverty. If someone could show me that it was the culture that was bringing the poverty, perhaps I would assign more personal responsibility to those escaping. But seeing it is probably those in power who cause the poverty, I can’t in my conscience turn those people away. So I can’t say it is immoral to enforce our border, in my opinion it is wrong. I am fine with settling the matter through our elected representatives. I happen to think that the fact that they broke the law in coming here is excusable in view of the poverty. Others can disagree, and that is why we have a democracy.

What Chavez is pointing out is that some people are judging all illegal immigrants by the worst of them. That’s racism.

Well Chertoff told us that anything short of the death penalty would be considered amnesty too.

I.’m. having. a. hard. time. writing. this..Chertoff. is. a. Bush bot. clone. There, got through it.

Eaaagh, Now I have a icky taste in my mouth and I just got the liberal copy cat heebi jeebis.

Well Chertoff told us that anything short of the death penalty would be considered amnesty too.

Platitudes mouthed by a walking cadaver.

Some people just don’t like Mexicans — or anyone else from south of the border. They think Latinos are freeloaders and welfare cheats who are too lazy to learn English. They think Latinos have too many babies, and that Latino kids will dumb down our schools. They think Latinos are dirty, diseased, indolent and more prone to criminal behavior. They think Latinos are just too different from us ever to become real Americans.

I haven’t had time to read any of the comments, what I really want to say is…
Is she (Chavez) f…ing joking? Why do I feel like the Republican party, my party,(new I might add, I voted for Bush/Repubs for the first time in the last election) has thrown us under the bus and abandoned us??? I’m not going back to the dhimmicrats, but it’s distressing to see our leaders doing this to us. Rush summed it up pretty well.