We have enforcement laws now that are being ignored. What makes anyone think that any enforcement provisions in the future will be enacted?

It’s a tough one to answer, isn’t it?

doriangrey on May 29, 2007 at 2:15 PM

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree as well. You mention the tyrannical minority. Have you seen Medved’s oped at Townhall.com — good observation on how the polls can be viewed in two different ways.

As for the boiling pot analogy I think it is likely to fall off the radar if no bill is passed. If this happens, the bill that does get passed is going to be largely to the like of the Democrats and the Republicans will have no leverage.

I’ll repeat my point:

We have enforcement laws now that are being ignored. What makes anyone think that any enforcement provisions in the future will be enacted?

I notice you’ve not answered this question. Please answer it.

The bill is going to pass – I get the impression that there is no bill that you would be happy with. If that is so you are at odds with the majority of your fellow citizens.
Deal with it.

First, nobody on here has argued the inevitability of its passage; only the advisability of it. Second, I am not the one at odds with the majority of Americans. From every poll and the reactions that Congressmen are reporting, I am in the mainstream. Deal with it.

And by the way, what makes you think that any new immigration laws will be enforced?

Illegal aliens should not be rewarded for breaking the law. They should not be granted temporary/permanent worker visas. They should not be allowed to procreate children in this country to manipulate the immigration laws.

Suggested immigration policy, we deport those illegaly here, and replace them with the good people standing patiently in line, following the law. As these individuals arrive and take the jobs the illegal are currently providing we will remove their incentive for returning. So if it takes twenty years, better than manure currently being tossed about as immigration legislation.

Could be wishful thinking on my part but my main point in all of this is that if not now, it may never happen.

Sorry I find this to be a truly egregious and fallacious argument. This issue has been rising in temperature for the last 6 years, it is no longer a pot on the back burner simmering and now and then letting off a little steam, it currently is at a roiling boil and about to explode violently in the faces of our elected officials.

One thing this issue is not is what the media constantly attempted to portray it as. It is not an issue of concern only to radical right wing conservative republicans. All the polls show that it is a totally bi-partisan issue with the majority of the public democrat republican and independent holding nearly identical views on the issue.

The enforcement side of the debate is clearly where the public passion lies on the issue. Seventy-two percent (72%) of voters say it is Very Important for “the government to improve its enforcement of the borders and reduce illegal immigration.” That view is held by 89% of Republicans, 65% of Democrats, and 63% of unaffiliated voters. *

There is therefore no justification in accepting a bill that only a tyrannical minority wants out of fear that failure to accept this unacceptable legislation would result in no legislation at all.

The true and justifiable fear here is that acceptance of this unacceptable legislation will in fact result in exactly the failures predicted by those suggesting a failure to accept this unacceptable legislation would result in a failure to secure the border or enforce existing laws.

The degree with which this bill needs to be overhauled is so extensive that the additions to and deletions from required to make it even remotely resemble the will of the people would amount to a complete rewrite retaining only the bills title.

Just 26% Favor Senate Immigration Plan

doriangrey on May 29, 2007 at 1:25 PM

Good points. Could be wishful thinking on my part but my main point in all of this is that if not now, it may never happen. People have good reason to be upset that little to nothing has been done in forty years, I agree. But at least according to the White House link many gains have been made in the last six years.
The main bone of contention for me is that I don’t think it is very realistic to think we will round up 12 million people and deport with the existing laws. Enforce the laws first absolutely, which is what the bill states. But deal with the illegals in a more sensible fashion. The bill hasn’t been completely fleshed out yet, which is a postive sign that a better version can be constructed. I just think that with the gains Bush has demonstrated in the enforcement side, honest efforts will be continued.

Call me strange in regards to the Patriot Act and Wiretapping measures I think they are just fine and don’t need to be scaled back.

I think you know by now that I do enjoy a good old fashioned flame war when the discussion degrades into one, however when the subject is of such national importance and the individual being flamed remains civil I cannot find any justification in encouraging a flame war where civil debate on dissenting opinions has the potential to bring about a useful public policy.

This issue is far too important to be allowed to degenerate into a diatribe of vitriol flung at dissenting individuals. Sometimes we really do have to agree to disagree.

As I said before I believe that your opinions on this issue are predicated on wishful thinking and an unrealistic expectation of action on the part of what has for 40 years now been a body politic distinguished by inaction and stubborn refusal to fulfill the well publicized will of the American electorate.

The very concept of Sanctuary Cities smacks of tyranny of the minority considering that the vast majority of Americans have clearly enunciated their opposition to the concept as well as the concept of amnesty and equally clearly stated that they want the already existing laws enforced.

Virtually every single poll has shown beyond any shred of doubt that the majority of Americans want 1) the border secured first and foremost and 2) that they want illegal aliens prosecuted under existing US law.

I find it amusing that the same group of individuals who cannot trust the US government not to abuse the Patriot Act or Bush’s controversial Wire Taping program suddenly have the faith to believe that the US government will vigorously enforce the provisions of the new immigration bill.

Let’s face reality here, the vast majority of the public has lost any faith in the government enforcing this bill because for the last 40+ years they have miserably failed at enforcing immigration laws that are already on the books.

It look’s to the majority of us as if our elected officials really have no intention of listening to what we the people have to say on this issue. And no amount of posturing on the part of a tyrannical minority is going to convince us that they will suddenly do a 180 degree about-face and start doing now what they have for 40+ years refused to do.

doriangrey on May 29, 2007 at 11:22 AM

Doriangrey,

Thanks, I appreciate your comments on my behalf.

Best regards,
Bradky

But still no viable alternative plan from you… yawn.

Already gave you one – enforce the laws on the books. That stops the flow of immigrants coming in and will result in fewer employers willing to hire illegals.

BTW, which did you pick – disingenuous or gullible?

You are both being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest in characterizing Bradky as a troll and thread-hijacker. While I may not agree with much of what he posts it should be obvious to any honest and intelligent reader that he posts consistently to induce rational thoughtful dialog.

Honest rational descent was considered to be the hallmark of a true patriot by the founding father of this great republic, an attribute that thanks to the narcissistic self-indulgent and immature gaining access to the internet seems now to have fallen out of favor with the American public.

If we can no longer have public discourse where diametrically opposed ideologies confront one another with civility then our public discourse becomes nothing less than a DKos anally retentive feces fight.

Yes I think Bradky is wrong on the immigration issue and I believe that it is indeed time for Operation Wetback II, but so long as Bradky enunciates his position rationally logically and civilly he deserves the respect of having his position debated civilly.

I get the impression that there is no bill
Bradky on May 29, 2007 at 7:29 AM

Okay, I’ll byte: why must there be a bill?

It is the same old sophistry your kind has been using for gun control since time began. The laws on the books now (that are being ignored) aren’t enough. We need more laws, redundant (i.e. ignored) laws, to fix the problem.

Or are you like the Swimmer (Kennedy) who said in 1986 when Simpson-Mazzoli passed that we will never have to pass another bill like this one again? Mary Jo Kopechne is still unavailable for comment………

cmay on May 29, 2007 at 6:52 AM

We are going around in circles on this. The bill is going to pass – I get the impression that there is no bill that you would be happy with. If that is so you are at odds with the majority of your fellow citizens.
Deal with it.

Y’all continue to play right into ‘Bradky’s’ strong suit which is to hijack Conservative threads with the same old liberal rhetoric and links to obfuscating BS articles.
DoctorDentons on May 29, 2007 at 6:41 AM

Funny, I didn’t realize that the White House links were (a) liberal links or rhetoric, and (b) had no relevance to this subject

Guess I need to emulate you and call people names. That raises the level of the discussion soooooo much more.

So now the white house is part of the conspiracy?

Bradky

I didn’t use the word conspiracy. You did. Are you arguing that the Executive Branch has built the wall that they were required to by law? If so, please provide pictures.

Or are you arguing that we don’t currently have any immigration laws that are being flaunted? Maybe you’re arguing that Bush is not an open borders advocate.

Maybe you’re arguing that Bush has not been in consult with the Congress on this bill, which is also clearly false. Attempting to hide your unfounded point in vague accusations is pathetic, even for you Bradky. So I’ll repeat my point:

We have enforcement laws now that are being ignored. What makes anyone think that any enforcement provisions in the future will be enacted?

And let me expound: We don’t need a new law. We need to enforce the ones we have. Have you noticed the small scale raids (which supposedly won’t work on a large scale) that the administration has offered as window dressing? I guess they are outside the law.

We have to keep the pressure on these senators and congressman! Neocon Peg at 9:42 PM

That is really the bottom line. What we say to each other is informative, encouraging and sometime enraging. What we say to them has a slender chance of swaying their vote.

I checked out your suggested link, and all I saw was the White House countering strawmen instead of addressing the actual questions and objections folks are voicing.

The only mythical components of #4, for example, are the idea that millions of illegals will come streaming out of the shadows to pay their fines, at the risk of potential deportation, so they can start paying taxes too, and the illusion that we’ll have anything remotely like a way to handle them effectively if they do. Of course, all that assumes that illegals can also pony up the $$ for the bilingual lawyers they are going to need along the way. Frankly, when it comes to checking backgrounds, I sure don’t want to rely on anything of importance just “popping up,” do you?

In the final analysis, if we can’t get a handle on who’s coming and going, how is the rest of the package even supposed to work? The real fiction here is the conceit that there’s any compelling reason not to make reinforcing the borders the sine qua non of further legislation. To date, I have yet to hear anyone step up to the plate and argue that point convincingly, including you. In fact, contra your best shot scenario, I have yet to be convinced that what may well turn out to be the outrageously expensive pretense of comprehensive reform is better than no bill at all.

I also explained that I will no longer be giving money to the GOP, nor my family.

Kyl’s office has been nothing but rude to me. They refuse to answer their phones most the time.

McCain is worse, he office hung up on me. I said, “Hi, I would like to leave a message to McCain about this Amnesty Bill…” *Click*

I guess I have no representatives in the Senate for my state.

I want no bill, only enforcement.

Will it make any difference to Kyl?

And as to your bleeding heart scenario of the videos of illegals being deported??? SO DAM WHAT??? Put up videos opposite of them of all the people killed by illegals over the last 5 years. Propoganda works both ways.

Romeo13 on May 28, 2007 at 8:18 PM

You are dreaming if you think a negative backlash wouldn’t occur. Your dreaded MSM types would see to that.

I hate to point this out, but we have enforcement laws now that are being ignored. What makes anyone think that any enforcement provisions in the future will be enacted?
cmay on May 28, 2007 at 9:54 PM

So now the white house is part of the conspiracy?

Either you’re being extremely disingenuous, as you know that there is no intention enacting any actual enforcement once they have their amnesty – or you’re just extremely gullible.

Take your pick.

thirteen28 on May 28, 2007 at 11:17 PM

But still no viable alternative plan from you… yawn.

Romeo, cmay, don’t feed the trolls. Bradky is a dickeater and is only here to spew leftism and hijack threads.

Jaibones on May 28, 2007 at 11:00 PM

harsh, but the part about Bradky’s purpose being the hijacking of threads is true. Stupidity and low self-esteem and lefty talking points combine to make a really annoying troika of troll-ism

Janos Hunyadi on May 28, 2007 at 11:18 PM

Just what part of this post did your words of wisdom contribute to this particular thread? When one has no good contribution one resorts to name calling and accusations.

then step forward so they may be struck down by the Lord straightaway and be done with it.

Of all the very interesting things in this thread, this one kind of ‘struck’ out at me…is this person threatening supporters of the bill with holy retribution? God is doing contract killings? Am I reading this wrong? Part of me finds this amusing; I’m also quite offended by it. Well, if I don’t post a follow up to this, it might mean that I’ve been ….