Media having trouble finding the nuance in Pew’s poll of U.S. Muslims
posted at 10:55 am on May 23, 2007 by Allahpundit
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As great a post as this is, it just wouldn’t be as great without the detail about Pravda. It’s like the twist at the end of a Twlight Zone episode that nails the whole thing down. “It’s … it’s a cookbook!” Same deal here.
On the other hand, it is possible to find too much nuance in the Pew data:
The boss’s new column looks at similar nuance in previous polls. “A few fringe jihadists here, a few fringe jihadists there, and soon you’re talking about bloody real numbers.”
Update: Not only does the group Free Muslims recognize the nuance, they’re going to try to do something about it. Bravo.
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AP Spins in Both Directions
he Associated Press seems to be having a little trouble deciding how to spin the new Pew Research survey.
One hour and 52 minutes ago, the headline was:
Most U.S. Muslims reject suicide bombings.
Thirty-five minutes ago, the same story was re-released:
Some US Muslims justify suicide attacks.
Will it change again? The second headline is actually less politically correct than the first, so stay tuned…
UPDATE at 5/22/07 11:32:57 am:
The latest version:
Some young US Muslims OK suicide attacks.
TheBigOldDog on May 23, 2007 at 11:07 AM
26% averages out to roughly 186,000…Makes the number 26 look infinitesimal…
soulsirkus on May 23, 2007 at 11:20 AM
Good to see a muslim group is gonna address it, it needs to happen. Hopefully this guy is legit.
Bad Candy on May 23, 2007 at 11:28 AM
Further proof you can make numbers say anything you want them to.
JaHerer22 on May 23, 2007 at 11:29 AM
JaHerer22,
Yes indeed. 26% of under 30 American born Muslims believe that violent attacks are sometimes justifiable. As soulsirkus pointed out that’s about 186,000 Muslims willing to go Jihad right here in America. No rules of engagement no warning and a military force nearly equal to what we currently have in Iraq. Yep them numbers can be made to say just about anything. Perhaps its time to take a pager from Roosevelt’s game plan for WWii, and put all Muslims in America in internment camps before those Muslim youth do go Jihad.
doriangrey on May 23, 2007 at 11:44 AM
Does that include Democrats using US soldiers deaths in Iraq for poltical purposes ?
William Amos on May 23, 2007 at 11:56 AM
Thanks for trying, dude. Usually, when you rebut him hard enough he just disappears. He’s a hit and run kinda guy. He doesn’t know the first thing about Islam unless it comes from John Esposito or Karen Armstrong.
PRCalDude on May 23, 2007 at 11:57 AM
You can make the numbers say that 3/4 of American born Muslims under 30 support the U.S. and reject extremism. Or you can make them say almost 200,000 American Muslims support attacking the U.S. They’re both true, but they both tell different stories. That’s my point, what’s yours?
Not really, I mean I guess it could but I was mostly referring to poll data where there are so many different numbers and variables it’s easy to pick and choose and manipulate. The number of U.S. deaths in Iraq is pretty cut and dry, not much room for interpretation.
Well actually I don’t know who John Espostio or Karen Armstrong are, so what little I do know about Islam doesn’t come from them. I’ve never claimed to be an Islamic authority and my original comment was about numbers, not Islam, so I don’t really see how it’s relevant. I learned that you can make numbers say anything by taking stats and research methods in college. And unlike your tired liberal stereotypes I have a job that requires me to attend meetings and speak to clients so I apologize if I can’t respond to your comments as you write them.
JaHerer22 on May 23, 2007 at 12:20 PM
I used to write a movie review column, several years ago, for a free local paper…and one of my ex-friends once referred to me as a “journalist”. Thus, the “ex” friend tag.
Needless to say, I dislike “journalists”.
tickleddragon on May 23, 2007 at 12:24 PM
Not surprised by this, nor am I surprised by the spin.
Krydor on May 23, 2007 at 12:26 PM
PRCalDude,
I often find myself at odds with people on both sides of the political spectrum. I am a Born Again Christian, but I am an American first and I am so because it is the freedoms of America that make it possible for me to be a Born Again Christian without having to subjugate my faith to another religion or political ideology or suffer life threatening persecution.
So I take a pragmatic view of politics. That pragmatic view being predicated upon my freedom to exercise whichever faith or no faith at all as my conscience dictates.
Thus pragmatism dictates that I defend those freedoms in any ethical and moral fashion possible. It also dictates that there are times when ethical and moral consideration be temporarily set aside.
It is pragmatic I dare even say prudent to do whatever is necessary to ensure that the democratic foundation of this great republic stand against, and here I quote our founding fathers, “all enemies foreign and domestic”.
If we cannot or do not defend our republic against all enemies foreign we will not have a republic to defend against all enemies domestic. If we do not defend this republic against all enemies domestic then we shall surly fall to all enemies foreign.
To foolishly believe that there is no conflict that cannot be peacefully negotiated is to deny reality. 20% of the world’s 1.6 billion adherents to Islam believe that violent Jihad is the correct path required to fulfill the requirements of Islam that Islam bring the entire world into submission under Islam and establish a world wide Islamic caliphate.
The fact that 26% of American born Muslims under 30 also believes this proves incontrovertibly that this is not an issue that can be negotiated peacefully and should not even remotely be approached as such.
To suggest otherwise would be to abdicate reason and logic and abandon any pragmatic approach to reality.
doriangrey on May 23, 2007 at 12:26 PM
That statement is completely false. There are not “so many numbers and variables”. The numbers (findings) do not change at all. It is only the viewpoint from which you report that changes.
tickleddragon on May 23, 2007 at 12:28 PM
JaHerer22, I’m not buying it. First of all it is possible for them to reject extremism but not support the U.S. Those two should not be linked together. They may hope for a U.S. governed by Islamic Sharia law but feel that suicide attacks are the wrong way/least effective way to go about it. I, therefore, wish they included the question about whether or not each of these subjects polled desire sharia law in this study. That would have been a revealing Q&A. Second of all if I was told that 3/4 of American born Muslims under the age of 30 rejected the tactic of sucide bombings my initial reaction would be to be alarmed about the fact that its not 100%. The numbers mean the same either way. And they don’t lie. People can spin them an use them any way they want but they will always mean the same thing in the end.
Zetterson on May 23, 2007 at 12:52 PM
Well of course the numbers don’t change and I never suggested they do. But there are so many numbers it’s easy to pick and choose the ones you want to make them say what you want them to. Here is the 108 page PDF of the poll results–plenty of numbers to go around in there.
You make numbers say what you want them too by cherry-picking the numbers that suit you and then using them in the way the best expresses what you’re trying to prove. Rounding up or down, using fractions or percentages, using the amount for X vs using the amount against X–these are all tricks of the trade. This poll is the perfect example–the exact same numbers have created headlines from “Time Bombs in Our Midst” to “Majority of Muslims support America.”
I didn’t realize this concept that you can make numbers say whatever you want was so controversial. I thought pretty much everyone knew this. I’d suggest going down to your local community college and signing up for a Stats 101 class–might change your whole perspective on things.
JaHerer22 on May 23, 2007 at 1:00 PM
It’s called cherry picking, and it’s done (as pointed out by tickleddragon) to reflect the viewpoint you represent.
Rick on May 23, 2007 at 1:02 PM
Sometimes numbers do matter more than other times. In the case of terrorists’ inclinattions/actions every single one is devastating. I mentioned yesterday, when first reading about the poll, that the MSM reports the findings with no sense of horror, and with the slant of “better here than in Europe, bla, bla, bla…” and with their typical pc blathering.
Even at 99.9% success rate we would still have:
- 2 unsafe landings at the O’Hare airport per day
- 16,000 lost pieces of mail every hour
- 32,000 bank checks deducted from the wrong bank accounts every hour
Terrorism could potentially be as deadly or more so than the first example and s/b taken just as, or more, seriously. Heh, Edwards now says we have no WoT. It’s just imagination. Mrs. Obama dismissed it in 2 seconds flat yesterday too.
Ace did a heck of a job, again.
Entelechy on May 23, 2007 at 1:04 PM
Sorry, I wrote my comment prior to seeing yours.
Rick on May 23, 2007 at 1:04 PM
Kudos to the Free Muslims Coalition.
Valiant on May 23, 2007 at 1:20 PM
I hate to burst your bubble, but Soviet Pravda and pravda.ru are totally unrelated, excepting the common name. Still, the common name makes for irony enough….
calbear on May 23, 2007 at 1:25 PM
26% is WRONG in my opinion.
I know it is hard to do but try to put yourself in their shoes, if someone is doing a poll wouldn’t you feel just a little hesitant to tell the truth? I know I would probably tell them I was a peaceful Muslim and that Islam preaches tolerance and peace. 26%? No I believe the number is a lot worse. My only question is, when the next big attack hits our shores, will the moonbats pull their heads from the “I Hate Bush” sand and wake up, or will they simply morph their delusions into another conspiracy theory against Buooosssshhhhh!
abinitioadinfinitum on May 23, 2007 at 1:28 PM
An apt choice, AP. We should be just as afraid of Soc*alists who claim their only desire is”To Serve Man“
Freelancer on May 23, 2007 at 2:07 PM
The bottom line is, we’re screwed.
RightWinged on May 23, 2007 at 3:25 PM
“Further bolstering the findings, Kohut noted that fewer than 6% of respondents physically attacked field interviewers during the survey.”
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/
Blacklake on May 23, 2007 at 3:38 PM
JaHerer,
what part of “There are AT LEAST 180,000 people in this country that want to blow us up” don’t you understand?
I don’t care if you say “At least 26% of Muslims approve of suicide bombings” or if you say “Almost 75% of Muslims disapprove of suicide bombings.” There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country that would like nothing better than to kill a bunch of innocent people. And many of these lunatics are here ILLEGALLY!! Does that not concern you in the least?
BigOrangeAxe on May 23, 2007 at 4:22 PM
Free Muslims Against Terrorism, Or More Deception?
Connie on May 23, 2007 at 4:51 PM
It’s not the least bit controversial. But your snarky obnoxious “community college” suggestion is a bit. Leave it to you to end a debate point with a condescending swat.
Thanks, but I have a university degree, and don’t need yours or a community college’s instruction in simple stats.
tickleddragon on May 23, 2007 at 5:18 PM
There are two things that concern me about this. One is the obvious, thousands upon thousands of jihadists in the gates if you will. The other is the fact that the American public is so ho hum about this. Our complacency is astounding. Has their ever been another point in history that either our or another country or culture has been completely aware of the fact that enemy killers were amongst them and their only response was ehhhhh whats for dinner tonight? I wonder who is going to win American Idol? What would the response have been if this study was released on Sept 12th 2001?
Zetterson on May 23, 2007 at 5:21 PM
Your broad point about what people can do with statistics is well-known, and your discussion of it is tedious and boring. It’s a mere distraction from the matter under discussion, which is that 26% of young muslim men in the U.S. admit being okay with muslims’ terrorist attacks. You’ve taken attention away from discussing that circumstance, but you haven’t changed the circumstance or its importance to the readers. The readers aren’t angry with you for saying that one can trifle with numbers; Allahpundit made that point himself. The readers are angry with you because you yourself are trifling. You can reply either by trifling again or by attempting to address the matter under discussion.
Kralizec on May 23, 2007 at 6:44 PM
Zetterson, I think the problem is that Americans understand very well that they’re not permitted to do anything about the matter except talk and occasionally cast a vote–one vote out of 100 million. If they were permitted to do more than talk about the matter, I think they would. If they found practical ways to exceed the bounds of permission, I think they would take them.
Kralizec on May 23, 2007 at 6:58 PM
numbers shnumbers,
I don’t understand. why live in a country that you feel a need to suicide bomb? If your religion is that important, if that is the way you must live your life, laws you must abide to… why live in a country that has the opposite idealogy?
If you don’t like it, why live here? What is it then, that you want from the USA? This is not going to become an islamic country, so what are you frustrated about?
flipflopper on May 24, 2007 at 9:33 AM
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