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NYT studies evangelicals in the mist

posted at 10:20 am on May 21, 2007 by Bryan
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I love the scent of agenda-driven reporters in the morning. Note the photo that accompanies the story, and the headline:

Emphasis Shifts for New Breed of Evangelicals

Translation: They’re…evolving!

The evangelical Christian movement, which has been pivotal in reshaping the country’s political landscape since the 1980s, has shifted in potentially momentous ways in recent years, broadening its agenda and exposing new fissures.

The death of the Rev. Jerry Falwell last week highlighted the fact that many of the movement’s fiery old guard who helped lead conservative Christians into the embrace of the Republican Party are aging and slowly receding from the scene. In their stead, a new generation of leaders who have mostly avoided the openly partisan and confrontational approach of their forebears have become increasingly influential.

Typified by megachurch pastors like the Rev. Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Orange County, Calif., and the Rev. Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church outside Chicago, the new breed of evangelical leaders — often to the dismay of those who came before them — are more likely to speak out about more liberal causes like AIDS, Darfur, poverty and global warming than controversial social issues like abortion and same-sex marriage.

Warren and Hybels are certainly different from past evangelical leaders, but past evangelical leaders also spoke out about the issues of their time–AIDS, Darfur and global warming are issues of our time. It would be odd if evangelical leaders of this moment didn’t speak about those issues. Warren is unfortunately leading a cadre of evangelical leaders down a global warming rabbit trail, but it isn’t strange that that’s an issue he’d have an opinion on.

One thing that does separate Warren and Hybels from past evangelical leaders, but that the Times doesn’t get into, is their effort to fundamentally change Christianity and their intolerance for Christians who disagree with them. You won’t find the Times reporting on that, though, because it’s a conflict its reporters probably don’t understand. You’ll catch a glimpse of Warren’s thinking in this roundtable interview he gave before a group of journalists at a Pew Foundation forum two years ago:

JUAN WILLIAMS, NPR: Picking up on this business about the disagreements between the fundamentalists and the Pentecostals, I mean, this struck me as news because when journalists write about it, we go to people like Robertson and Falwell to represent the evangelicals. And that’s the way it comes across, so it strikes me that we’re ill informed or you’re wrong. (Chuckles.) And secondly, that you’re not using this God-given influence you spoke of, because your influence is not showing up in the American media in terms of supplanting people who you would tell us are bogus.

MR. WARREN: Well, I tell you, that’s the reason I accepted this meeting, because I’m just tired of having other people represent me and represent the hundreds of thousands of churches where the pastors I’ve trained would nowhere, no way, relate to some of the supposed spokesmen of a previous generation.

Now the word “fundamentalist” actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones. (my emphasis)

The Five Fundamentals of which Warren speaks are:

1. The inerrancy of the autographs (or original writings) of scripture.
2. The virgin birth and deity of Christ.
3. The substitutionary view of the atonement.
4. The bodily resurrection of Christ.
5. The imminent return of Christ.

A savvy reporter at that Pew forum would have asked Warren, “Which of those five fundamentals represent a ‘very legalistic, narrow’ view of Christianity?” No one thought to ask him that, and the NYT reporters don’t report on his thinking in their piece either. It’s a conflict driven by Warren that entirely escapes the Times’ anthropological eye.

The answer, by the way, is none of the fundamentals represent a “narrow, legalistic” view of Christianity. They’re all essential beliefs. Believing in the fundamentals doesn’t make you a fundamentalist. It just makes you a Christian. The fundamentals were put together to unify Christians of all stripes on the basics that unite us. They’re not just fundamentalist in design or intent. So Warren either has his fundamentalism taxonomy wrong, or he has his theology wrong. A savvy reporter, given the opportunity, would ask him: “Which is it?”

Back to the Times article.

The evangelical movement, however, is clearly evolving. Members of the baby boomer generation are taking over the reins, said D. G. Hart, a historian of religion. The boomers, he said, are markedly different in style and temperament from their predecessors and much more animated by social justice and humanitarianism. Most of them are pastors, as opposed to the heads of advocacy groups, making them more reluctant to plunge into politics to avoid alienating diverse congregations.

“I just don’t see in the next generation of so-called evangelical leaders anyone as politically activist-minded” as Mr. Falwell, the Rev. Pat Robertson or James C. Dobson, he said.

The “he” is Rev. Leith Anderson, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and he is both right and wrong. Warren is as politically active as any pastor before him, but his politics manifests itself in ways that don’t resemble the activism of Falwell or Pat Robertson. You won’t find Warren running for president, for instance. You will find him trying to run a country, though.

Paul Kagame, president of Rwanda, is not known for hugging pastors. Catholic and Protestant clergy have been convicted in connection with the genocide in his country in 1994, and Kagame has repeatedly stated his disdain for religious organizations. Thus a buzz went up in Kigali’s Amahoro Stadium last month when Kagame allowed Rick Warren, pastor of the Saddleback megachurch in Lake Forest, Calif., and author of the best-selling The Purpose-Driven Life, to throw an arm over his shoulders and “pray for the President.”

In fact, their bond now extends well beyond prayerful embrace. Kagame has committed his government to cooperation in a five-to-seven-year self-sufficiency project staffed by Rwandan volunteers but initiated, advised and at least partly funded by Warren’s network of “purpose-driven churches.” Warren talks of turning Rwanda into “the first purpose-driven nation.”

And you’ll find him conducting foreign policy. Badly.

The political differences between Warren’s activities and those of Falwell and Robertson come down to style–Warren is less overtly and partisanly political–and emphasis–Warren is less likely to move on specific issues than he is likely to think holistically about a whole basket full of issues and act on them simultaneously. And he’s more likely to act behind the scenes than sling thunder from his pulpit or your TV.

Mr. Warren, 53, who wrote the spiritual best seller “The Purpose-Driven Life,” has dedicated much of the past few years to mobilizing evangelicals to eradicate AIDS in Africa. Even so, he remains theologically and socially quite conservative. He tempers the sharper edges of his beliefs with a laid-back style (his usual Sunday best is a Hawaiian shirt). Although he does not speak from the pulpit about politics, he sent a letter before the 2004 presidential election to pastors in a vast network who draw advice from him, urging them to weigh heavily “nonnegotiable” issues like abortion, stem cell research and same-sex marriage from a biblical perspective.

And some of these evangelical leaders are pushing more than a little mission creep on their churches and parachurch groups:

The Rev. Joel C. Hunter, 59, a Florida megachurch pastor who signed the climate change statement, stepped down last year as the president-elect of the Christian Coalition over what he said was resistance among members of the organization’s board to expanding its concerns beyond the usual social issues. He has been active in encouraging evangelicals to speak out on issues like global poverty, and signed on this month to an evangelical declaration on immigration reform that called for a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. He is critical of the tactics and rhetoric employed by the old religious right.

Put together with Warren’s global warming effort and his and Hybels’ and several other megachurch pastors’ overall approach, the emerging evangelical leadership is less doctrinaire in its thinking, pays less attention to traditional Christian teachings, is more politically correct, but is operating in ways that are likely to generate less political opposition outside the church (but more inside for a variety of reasons). The Times got that part right.

I’m probably bumping up against fair use, so I’ll leave you with this, in which you can sense the Times’ disappointment in the new species of evangelical leader:

A poll conducted this year by the Pew Research Center showed that white evangelical Protestants have similar concerns to other Americans, including the war in Iraq, education and the economy, but a far greater percentage continue to cite tackling the “moral breakdown” in society as a key priority. They remain solidly Republican.

“While I think a lot of their leaders have begun to talk about other things, like Darfur and the environment, this remains a pretty social conservative group in some respects,” said Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center. “There doesn’t seem to me to be any sign of a sea change.”

And encourage you to read the rest. Obama makes a cameo. No Times article on politics would be complete without mentioning him.


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Here we go.

amerpundit on May 21, 2007 at 10:27 AM

Amazing how the MSM has selective reporting.

amerpundit on May 21, 2007 at 10:27 AM

“Disturbing Voices” – it’s not even subliminal.

mikeyboss on May 21, 2007 at 10:42 AM

I’m going with 1 and 5 on the list of 5 fundamentals. Those have been causing trouble for quite some time.

What he’s doing, or so it seems to me, is what the article says. I wouldn’t call it evolution, but reinvention.

Krydor on May 21, 2007 at 10:45 AM

So Warren either has his fundamentalism taxonomy wrong, or he has his theology wrong.

I vote for the latter. Something is very wrong with Warren’s theology if he has issues with any of those 5 basic tenets of the faith.

infidel4life on May 21, 2007 at 11:03 AM

What’s new? We all knew that the drive-by media couldn’t report a story without bias, even if someone else wrote it for them.

Off Topic: Just curious … Is anyone else having a problem with the main page? IE is loading everything in one column on the left-hand side of the page for me.

Voice of Reason on May 21, 2007 at 11:04 AM

Another article by the Times in which baby boomers are shown to be the most important generation evuh, even in such odd corners of America as red-state evangelical districts? Who’d have thought it?

/endsnark

The social issues are most noticeable among our large twenty-something population. In the realm of ideas, they are strict conservatives regarding such issues as premarital sex, gay marriage, and abortion. But they don’t look like social conservatives. Many of them have tatoos, piercings, or a “soul patch” beard (and our youth minister sports all three, plus an unalterably conservative burn-Darwin-at-the-stake belief in strict biblical inerrancy).

So in my area of the South, the new evangelical generation looks and behaves like secular liberals, at least from the superficial view of an outsider. Because they have internalized the “hate the sin, but love the sinner” idea, and grown up with years of pro-gay messages in the media, they are unlikely to be as personally vocal as their elders about social matters. I suspect that many of them are happy to go clubbing with their gay friends from college in a live-and-let-live way. But I doubt they will vote much differently than their elders when it comes down to the really divisive American social issues.

Anton on May 21, 2007 at 11:15 AM

I’d hold to all 5, but I admire some of Hybels and Warren’s work. That being said, I also can struggle with some of the new things they are trying to do. The church is sometimes (not neccesarily them) becoming more about being spiritual (believing in the vague notion of a God) and being based on any absolutes. There are extremes on both sides. I hold to absolutes, but there are some things I am willing to admit are convictions and preferences. Hybels and Warren have been good at pointing this out.

danarchy on May 21, 2007 at 11:16 AM

“Believing in the fundamentals doesn’t make you a fundamentalist. It just makes you a Christian.”
- by Bryan

Thank You!

“So Warren either has his fundamentalism taxonomy wrong, or he has his theology wrong. A savvy reporter, given the opportunity, would ask him:” “Which is it?”

Both. I believe in this context these two options can not be mutually exclusive.

Lawrence on May 21, 2007 at 11:18 AM

Please add the following sentence following the “/endsnark” line above:

“I belong to a large conservative Methodist church that is modelled after Willow Creek rather than a standard mainline Protestant service.”

There. Now it makes sense. I had edited-out a largely irrelevant paragraph prior to hitting the “submit comment” button, but doing so eliminated the necessary backtround context.

When do we get our “preview post” feature?

Anton on May 21, 2007 at 11:20 AM

Its mushy is what it is.

I’m not a Rick Warren fan. Liberals like him because he is wishy-washy, and he’s willing to play along and chase their windmills, as Bryan has shown time and time again, thing like Global Warming and the fawning Syria trip. Liberals I think hope to rot the religious community within with watered down guys like Warren.

I’d ultimately like to see religion competing with the government in performing social services, and aggressively work to rebuild the culture, all outside the government, without any gov’t funding or support, undermining the welfare state and the nanny state simultaneously. I see it as the best means to break the state serfdom culture that the left is cultivating. People like Warren are an obstacle to that end.

Your posts on Rick Warren are always very good Bryan, all I knew about him was Purpose-Driven, which I assumed was pure feelgood carp like 99.998% of all self-help books, but your highlights of the guy confirmed it for me.

Bad Candy on May 21, 2007 at 11:20 AM

When do we get our “preview post” feature?

Anton on May 21, 2007 at 11:20 AM

When the mods find its no longer fun to see us gnash our teeth in agony due to lack of preview. :P

Bad Candy on May 21, 2007 at 11:25 AM

I think you’re seeing bias in a report where there is none, especially in the last section you quoted–I see it as informative (they remain solidly Republican) more than bitter.

But this isn’t news to anyone. Who didn’t know there weren’t different sects of Christianity where people believe in different things? Honestly.

Nonfactor on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

This is the most important part from my perspective:

Although he does not speak from the pulpit about politics, he sent a letter before the 2004 presidential election to pastors in a vast network who draw advice from him, urging them to weigh heavily “nonnegotiable” issues like abortion, stem cell research and same-sex marriage from a biblical perspective.

As long as Christians keep trying to make political hay out of abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage, those Christians will always be viewed as prudish fuddy-duddies by mainstream Americans. Even Americans who believe in God and go to church aren’t comfortable with a voting bloc of folks who think it’s okay to criminalize abortion or limit stem cell research because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. It’s terribly backward, and it has a distinct “and get those kids off my lawn while you’re at it” vibe.

Why is abortion still a non-negotiable issue in 2007? What’s so Christian about forcing a girl to have a child that she’s not ready for? If the abortion/gay-marriage/”morality” questions are still informing your voting preference at this point, you’re going to be left behind in the secular future. Between “morality” issues and immigration, the Democrats will never lose another election. My advice is to let it go – it’s not the government’s job to reduce abortions.

If you believe in God, and you believe that God regards elective abortions as sinful, let God deal with the sinner. In the meantime, just vote for Rudy. Jesus won’t cry if you do. ;)

Enrique on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

Voice of Reason,

Off Topic: Just curious … Is anyone else having a problem with the main page? IE is loading everything in one column on the left-hand side of the page for me.

Yea, been having that same problem for a couple of days now.

doriangrey on May 21, 2007 at 11:34 AM

In the meantime, just vote for Rudy. Jesus won’t cry if you do. ;)

Enrique on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

But for the last 20 years they’ve been claiming that if you vote for someone who supports abortion you’re supporting a murderer.

Nonfactor on May 21, 2007 at 11:38 AM

If you believe in God, and you believe that God regards elective abortions as sinful, let God deal with the sinner. In the meantime, just vote for Rudy. Jesus won’t cry if you do. ;)

Enrique on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

Would you apply the same reasoning to murder?

mikeyboss on May 21, 2007 at 11:41 AM

Bryan,

Modern evangelicalism is heading in the Emergent church direction. It’s not doctrine that matters anymore, it’s the experience. It’s 1920s-1930s higher critical liberalism dressed up in a modern form. Looks like the evangelical church today is heading the same direction the mainline protestant denominations headed 70 years ago. Look where they are now.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 11:50 AM

Enrique on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

Lemme ask you, I’m in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade, and letting abortion be decided by state legislature/referendums as it should have in the first place, would that be acceptable to you? Everyone gets what they want. Liberals can continue running their little death factories in their turf, and conservatives can ban abortions in theirs, and everyone deal with their own consequences, in this life and the next, should there be a next, which I’m adding because I don’t wanna put up with your arrogant sneering. Your a kewl atheist, you hate religion and religious, we get it.

Bad Candy on May 21, 2007 at 11:51 AM

As long as Christians keep trying to make political hay out of abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage, those Christians will always be viewed as prudish fuddy-duddies by mainstream Americans.

Enrique on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

Except that Christians aren’t the one’s who starting ‘bailing this hay’ with regard to abortion. Secular liberals pounded this down our throats through the courts against majority opinion of the voting public. Fetal stem cell research and same-sex marriage are being ram-rodded through in similar fashion.

it’s not the government’s job to reduce abortions.

True. It’s the public’s job to do so, by any legal means available. Just because a minority rammed this on us through the courts, doesn’t mean we can’t right this wrong through the electoral process. Otherwise, what’s the point of having an electoral process in the first place?

If you believe in God, and you believe that God regards elective abortions as sinful, let God deal with the sinner.

It’s not me that has to let God do anything. God’s got this well in hand. But that doesn’t mean I have to abandon my convictions just because you espouse a different morality.

Honestly, this really is as much about morality to you as it is to me. It’s just that I don’t like your version of it.

Lawrence on May 21, 2007 at 11:53 AM

if you vote for someone who supports abortion you’re supporting a murderer.

That’s not far from the truth.

John on May 21, 2007 at 11:54 AM

That’s not far from the truth.

John on May 21, 2007 at 11:54 AM

Which is exactly why I’ll just stay home when Giulianni get’s the nomination.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 11:58 AM

Did anyone else get sick and tired of the article referring to Aids, Darfur & other important issues as ‘liberal issues’? Is the implication supposed to be that conservatives don’t care about diseases and genocide?

There are Christian organizations (such as WorldVision) that have been on the ground in troubled countries the world over offering solid help (whether or not that particular country has become a celebrity cause du jour yet). A large percentage of AIDS sufferers in Africa are being cared for by the Catholic church. Religious groups have a habit of being in a place long before the UN ever notices and long after the UN pulls out because it’s not safe. And yet, this article makes it sound as if it is an odd thing for conservative religious groups to even touch these issues.

Nope…..no bias at the Times.

JadeNYU on May 21, 2007 at 11:59 AM

JadeNYU on May 21, 2007 at 11:59 AM

Voice of the Martyrs is in every Islamic hell-hole where Christians are found.

Honestly, believers in this country could do a much better job supporting our persecuted brothers in other countries. I include myself when I say this. We’re filthy rich compared to them.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 12:03 PM

A large percentage of AIDS sufferers in Africa are being cared for by the Catholic church.

Same Catholic Church with some issues regarding condoms?

Krydor on May 21, 2007 at 12:10 PM

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 11:50 AM

you would think they would’ve read Schaeffer by now? says something about the political pressures.

I refuse to do anything to contribute to a President Hillary or Obama, a President Guiliani is atleast half-conservative on some important issues and if he says he will nominate constructionist judges that is enough. The winner of the next election gets to tilt the court one way or another, maybe why the Dems have politicized the war so shamefully. the Scotus is their god.

jp on May 21, 2007 at 12:12 PM

I refuse to do anything to contribute to a President Hillary or Obama, a President Guiliani is atleast half-conservative on some important issues and if he says he will nominate constructionist judges that is enough. The winner of the next election gets to tilt the court one way or another, maybe why the Dems have politicized the war so shamefully. the Scotus is their god.

jp on May 21, 2007 at 12:12 PM

Saying he’s going to appoint these judges and doing it are two different things. It’s like the recall election in California that removed Gray Davis. I threw my vote away on that one and haven’t been disappointed since. George W. said a lot of things that he went back on right away.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 12:17 PM

And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small.

Even Biola, which created the document in question in the 1920s, no longer refers to itself as Fundamentalist. Over time the word stopped being about the five fundamentals and took on a connotation of cultural rigidness, i.e. no dancing, no rock music, etc.

Everything Warren said there is true. Self-described fundamentalists are few and far between, though people holding to the five core ideas would certainly include Warren himself.

John on May 21, 2007 at 12:19 PM

Saying he’s going to appoint these judges and doing it are two different things.

yes, but atleast there is a chance he will and their will be alot of pressure to do so if we vote him in. There is no chance of this with Hillary/obama or if you support a 3rd party that has no chance.

jp on May 21, 2007 at 12:24 PM

Even Americans who believe in God and go to church aren’t comfortable with a voting bloc of folks who think it’s okay to criminalize abortion or limit stem cell research because it conflicts with their religious beliefs

Tell me: what’s the difference between a religious belief and a moral conviction? Hmm? Oh right, there is no difference. Whether you read it in a book, or you made it up one day while standing in the shower, it is still a belief in how things should be and there’s no fundamental difference. Feeling a religious conviction about arbotion is no different from feeling a moral conviction about social welfare. Why should a religious person’s vote not be based on God when your vote is based on “whatever I feel like”?

This whole idea of “removing religion from the voting booth” seems like a thinly-veiled attempt to exclude one group from the conversation.

Lehosh on May 21, 2007 at 12:25 PM

don’t get me wrong, I’m for either Thompson or Romney right now, but if Rudy is nominated i’ll vote for him. I find it interesting Greg Bahnsens son is for him, speaking of evangelicals.

jp on May 21, 2007 at 12:25 PM

Members of the baby boomer generation are taking over the reins, said D. G. Hart, a historian of religion. The boomers, he said, are markedly different in style and temperament from their predecessors and much more animated by social justice and humanitarianism. Most of them are pastors, as opposed to the heads of advocacy groups, making them more reluctant to plunge into politics to avoid alienating diverse congregations.

I guarantee you Darryl Hart had quite a few more words than this that the NYT left out. Here’s what he said over on his blog:

D Hart
May 10th, 2007 at 8:54 am

And what do we do in the meantime before heaven? Specifically, what does the church do with non-members, treat them like they are members? I don’t think Israel or the church had a biblical mandate to fix the poverty, hunger and war of the world. Taking care of Christian poor, hungry and combat is certainly fair game — it is deaconal. But the trouble that I find in so many who write about Christianity and politics is the inability to recognize that the Bible is for the church, not the world, and that the world and the church are at odds. Too many want to use the church and the Bible to fix the world’s problems.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 12:29 PM

Here’s what else he said:

Aliens and Exiles
D Hart

We have likely exhausted A Secular Faith so I will make a final post that returns to the theme of my first. I am concerned that Christian involvement in politics distracts believers from their true and ultimate home. When we become so concerned about moral decline or social disorder in the United States that American Christians are known more for being “conservative” politically than for the religious practices that define them as believers, then we have identified ourselves more as citizens than as aliens and exiles of this world.

This may sound too otherworldly for some and a betrayal of a Reformed world and life view, though I rarely seen the worldviewists interact with St. Peter’s counsel on the Christian’s immigrant status during this period of redemptive history. To keep this concern from becoming merely otherworldly Christians could throw much more energy into the politics of their churches than into the affairs of the United States. It is not as if the church has no need for reform.

In fact, I find it at least ironic if not worse that at the same time as the rise of the Religious Right, Protestant faith and practice in the United States has worsened dramatically. Before Ronald Reagan evangelicals used to care about inerrancy. Now the doctrine of Scripture is barely talked about. Conservatives Protestants used to know something about reverence in worship but during their affair with the residents of the White House they have given the world a form of worship that exhibits no fear of blasphemy (now, we only define idolatry as having a second helping of pie after dinner). And to make matters even worse, the Protestant doctrine of justification is in serious disarray when twenty-fine years ago conservative evangelicals knew the difference between the Council of Trent and justification by faith alone.

Of course, it would be poor social science to suggest that the politiciztion of evangelicalism is responsible for these religious woes. But it would be equally naive to think that the zeal for Christian politics in secular affairs is unrelated to the indifference for Christian faith and practice in the realm of the church.

If Christians really want to have an impact on this world, they may have to worry a lot more about the world to come.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 12:34 PM

Same Catholic Church with some issues regarding condoms?

Krydor on May 21, 2007 at 12:10 PM

Sure. It’s also the same Catholic church that says no to premarital/extramarital sex.

I don’t see the point in implying the Catholic church is somehow guilty (or at least complicit) in the spread of AIDS because they don’t advocate condoms when, if a person were 100% following Catholic teachings on abstinence and only having sex with your spouse, their chance of contracting AIDS (while not zero) would be much less.

JadeNYU on May 21, 2007 at 12:38 PM

Good stuff, Bryan.

tikvah on May 21, 2007 at 12:47 PM

I’ve noticed that the same 2 grievances against our nation’s Constitution have also been applied to the Christian’s Bible.

(1)..There is an overwhelming ignorance of what those documents say. And both documents are extremely “unknown” by those who should know them the most.

(2)..They’ve been renderred as “living and breathing documents” which are subject to change and interpretation. This attitudes is the same things as saying “We have no Bible or Constitution.”

Before anyone accuses me of daring to compare the Constitution with the Bible, please understand that’s NOT what I’m doing. I’m comparing today’s attitude towards the Constitution with today’s attitude towards the Bible.

Joshua P. Allem on May 21, 2007 at 12:53 PM

1. The inerrancy of the autographs (or original writings) of scripture.

What does this mean exactly?

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 12:59 PM

Joshua P. Allem on May 21, 2007 at 12:53 PM

Both points should be incorrect regarding the Bible. And if people took time to read the bible (point 1) then would know that it is not a “living and breathing document” in the sense that the message changes (point 2).

I the Lord do not change. (Mal.3:6)

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8)

jman on May 21, 2007 at 1:05 PM

What does this mean exactly?

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 12:59 PM

It means that the original texts of Scripture penned by the various authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit to be written and don’t contain errors.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 1:05 PM

Enrique on May 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM

As long as Christians keep trying to make political hay out of abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage, those Christians will always be viewed as prudish fuddy-duddies by mainstream Americans. Even Americans who believe in God and go to church aren’t comfortable with a voting bloc of folks who think it’s okay to criminalize abortion or limit stem cell research because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. It’s terribly backward, and it has a distinct “and get those kids off my lawn while you’re at it” vibe.

I think you are projecting. The latest polls show that 68% of Americans are either 100% against abortion, or are against it with certain allowances for rape, incest and life of the mother. So those “Fuddie duddies” ARE mainstream America.

Fatal on May 21, 2007 at 1:06 PM

1. The inerrancy of the autographs (or original writings) of scripture.

What does this mean exactly?

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 12:59 PM

The translations may be fallible, but the original manuscripts in the original language are not.

jman on May 21, 2007 at 1:07 PM

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 1:05 PM

jman on May 21, 2007 at 1:07 PM

Does this also imply a literal interpretation of the Bible, as in Adam and Eve existed, Noah was however old, the world is only however many thousand years old, no evolution etc?

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 1:16 PM

I hold to absolutes, but there are some things I am willing to admit are convictions and preferences. Hybels and Warren have been good at pointing this out.

danarchy on May 21, 2007 at 11:16 AM

There is a distinct heirarchy of issues for Christians. Well, for anyone regardless of their belief system.

1. Fundamentals – The bottom line, dogmatic absolutes that define the belief system, which if ANY are shed or compromised, makes it no longer that same belief system. For Christianity, those five listed in the post are well understood.

2. Responsibilities – What the believer understands from Scripture to be commanded of him by God as expected obedience, not to be confused as a requirement for salvation. Things “written in stone”, both figuratively and literally, such as the Ten Commandments. As another example, that Christians should share their faith with others: “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:18-20

3. Convictions – Actions or attitudes driven from the believer’s desire to serve their God well. I don’t consume alcohol or drugs, because they would damage my ability to serve God properly, and would provide an avenue of ridicule of God for non-believers. Some of you will argue about this, but that is MY conviction.

4. Preferences (danarchy’s choice of words is good on this) – Personal choices which cannot be viewed as dogmatic adherence. For me, this includes things like not having tattoos, never using profane language, avoiding abscenity and vulgarity in all forms.

And unless I miss my guess, those last words generated more animosity against me than all the others among readers. Those preferences do not define Christianity, but this is precisely the area where most Christian-bashers dwell, and this is where, all too often, “megachurch” leaders spend the most passion and effort. They try to “reform” people into Christianity, but they are going the wrong way along that outline, from bottom to top.

Christian comedian Mike Warnke put it something like this: You don’t need to wash up to get ready for a bath. You come to Christ as you are, accept that you’ll never be good enough on your own for heaven, beg to receive His forgiveness, and that it’s all His work that makes it happen.

Freelancer on May 21, 2007 at 1:19 PM

Does this also imply a literal interpretation of the Bible, as in Adam and Eve existed, Noah was however old, the world is only however many thousand years old, no evolution etc?

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 1:16 PM

I think you’re confused. The Bible never says the Earth is only however many thousand years old.

Scripture is taken literally when it says to take it literally, and figuratively when it says to take it figuratively. The Bible uses the same literary devices used today. The Pentateuch is an ancient Near Eastern document, and the writing style reflects that.

As far as Adam and Eve existing, yes they did. And the Earth was flooded to the extent that it wiped out mankind.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 1:28 PM

I think you’re confused. The Bible never says the Earth is only however many thousand years old.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 1:28 PM

I admit ignorance on this issue so yes you’re right I am confused =) Just trying to learn a bit here so forgive any stupid questions on my part.

Back to the issue though, I remember to this day being told in my CCD class (Catholic education) that Adam and Eve was just a story and the Bible was a compilation of Parables (I think thats the term they used). I distinctly remember thinking to myself at 10 or 11 or however old I was “What??” but outwardly projecting “Oh yeah, I knew that…”

So my point I guess is, not all Catholics believe this.

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 1:35 PM

Back to the issue though, I remember to this day being told in my CCD class (Catholic education) that Adam and Eve was just a story and the Bible was a compilation of Parables (I think thats the term they used). I distinctly remember thinking to myself at 10 or 11 or however old I was “What??” but outwardly projecting “Oh yeah, I knew that…”

So my point I guess is, not all Catholics believe this.

Whether Genesis is a Parable or if it is true(as I believe it is) seems to be an in-house debate. In either scenario, the important thing to take away is that God created all there is and has authority over his creation.

Christians debate a lot of things. One thing is crystal clear:

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

I will never negotiate or apologize about the verse above. It is the core of what Christians believe, even if many are afraid to say it for fear of being labeled intolerant.

jman on May 21, 2007 at 1:57 PM

Dash, if I may, here’s a good and simple rule to determining if something in the Bible should be viewed as absolutely literal. If Jesus, who is the Creator, refers to someone or something from the Old Testament in His words, that is proof that it really existed/happened.

Freelancer on May 21, 2007 at 1:58 PM

Ironically meant to quote the verse!
******
Whether Genesis is a Parable or if it is true(as I believe it is) seems to be an in-house debate. In either scenario, the important thing to take away is that God created all there is and has authority over his creation.

Christians debate a lot of things. One thing is crystal clear:

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

I will never negotiate or apologize about the verse above. It is the core of what Christians believe, even if many are afraid to say it for fear of being labeled intolerant.

jman on May 21, 2007 at 1:57 PM

jman on May 21, 2007 at 1:58 PM

If the New York Times is going to do a “study” on evangelicals, it is either going to be (1) a hit job, or (2) a make believe piece that evangelicals are suddenly becoming liberal and not supporting George Bush.

On the subject of evangelicals, Ann Coulter has a great piece about Jerry Falwell and those conservatives who say things like, “I respected Jerry Falwell, but. . .” We should really be saying that we agreed with him 100%.

http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi

januarius on May 21, 2007 at 2:01 PM

Uh, if Genesis is a parable, then why is Christ referred to as ‘the last Adam’? There’s no way around that one. ‘For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.’

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 2:02 PM

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 2:02 PM

Agree!

jman on May 21, 2007 at 2:07 PM

yeah I didnt mean to get into a debate on what’s what in the Bible. I’m really in no position to argue it since my Biblical knowledge is pretty lacking. I’m hoping the big guy doesnt hold it against me too much ;)

My understanding was a fundamentalist held a literal interpretation of the Bible. If that’s wrong, I’ll stop referring to it that way, but I’d like to know why it’s wrong.

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 2:14 PM

Interesting read. Thanks for posting about this Bryan.
Sincerely,
your friendly fundamentalist, Chuck

vcferlita on May 21, 2007 at 2:18 PM

I don’t get how Warren views these 5 principles as “narrow and legalistic”

1. The inerrancy of the autographs (or original writings) of scripture.
2. The virgin birth and deity of Christ.
3. The substitutionary view of the atonement.
4. The bodily resurrection of Christ.
5. The imminent return of Christ.

Seems to me that all Christians would accept these principles without question. As a Catholic these principles certainly apply to my faith (though hardocre fundies would consider me an idol-worshiping heathen)

My wife attends Saddleback so I attend their services semi-regularly. What’s always struck me about the sermons is their self-importance. They’re always in the first person (”I’m going to solve XYZ”, “We here at Saddleback care more”). The AIDS in Africa sermon was typical. Here you have dozens (if not hundreds) of religious and charitable organizations that have been caring for AIDS patients and working on eradicating the disease for years but Rick Warren and Saddleback Church are going to solve the problem. The self-importance borders on arrogance.

But hey, more power to them. If the “Saddleback approach” can find the solutions that have eluded the rest of world maybe I’d join up. Nah, could never get used to the rock band, giant video screens and hawaiian shirts.

Newman65 on May 21, 2007 at 2:21 PM

Its amazing that groups of people form groups of beliefs and within those beliefs they mave have different levels of belief except for the MSM

EricPWJohnson on May 21, 2007 at 2:24 PM

I don’t see the point in implying the Catholic church is somehow guilty … {add whatever suits you}

JadeNYU on May 21, 2007 at 12:38 PM

The point is that it makes a great straw-man argument regarding what one wants to believe.

It’s much easier to make up a story to support one’s theory than it is to actually study up on the facts.

Lawrence on May 21, 2007 at 2:52 PM

No, Dash, you’re right on that point. Fundamentalists believe that the Holy Bible is history, not a story.

Newman65, as a “fundie”, I don’t judge catholics to be “idol-worshipping heathens”. I judge catholicism to teach many non-Biblical ideologies as having equal authority to Scripture, and therefore erroneous. I have no animosity towards you or yours.

Freelancer on May 21, 2007 at 2:55 PM

Freelancer,

Sorry I meant to include a :o) to indicate that line was meant in jest. Its an inside joke between me and my Protestant wife which of course neither you or anyone else on this forum would have any knowledge of. :O)

Newman65 on May 21, 2007 at 3:16 PM

No worries. It seemed that you weren’t altogether serious, but whoever knows for sure around here? It’s all AP’s fault, with his gotchas.

Freelancer on May 21, 2007 at 3:19 PM

Does this also imply a literal interpretation of the Bible, as in Adam and Eve existed, Noah was however old, the world is only however many thousand years old, no evolution etc?

Dash on May 21, 2007 at 1:16 PM

Good question, Dash.

Honestly, the only true interpretation of the Bible is a literal one. In context, of course.

Genesis says that God created the earth in 6 days. If God is omnipotent as God claims then God could certainly create the world in 6 days. Is this parable or is this simple fact?

If one rejects this view of creation, then what’s the point of trying to pick and choose what else in the Bible to believe or not to believe? It makes the whole concept of the Bible pointless if everyone is free to pick and choose which parts are true and which parts are false.

Simply stated, what the Genesis account describes, is a 6 day creation period involving instantaneous creation of life during that time, with one human male (Adam) being created, and then one human female (Eve). Following is a lengthy genealogy and historical context defining the generations from Adam to Noah. This genealogy is the context giving us a short time span with regard to the history of the earth.

It is also accepted that evolution and long-earth history theory do not match up with the strict literal Biblical account.

So, either the Bible is right, or it is wrong on this point. And if the Bible is wrong on any point it can’t be inspired by omnipotent God. (I don’t care what argument one makes about man corrupting God’s original words, it is foolish to attempt arguing that mankind has the power to corrupt God’s True original Word.) The point is that if one chooses to reject any part of the Bible they effectively reject all of it, by default.

In our context today:

Point One: Either the Creation happened on purpose in a short time span (Biblically), or something else happened such as Evolution occurring by accident over millennia.

Point Two: Any theory attempting to combine Creation and Evolution denies the Genesis account and by default denies the omnipotent power of God in favor of whatever politically correct theory is currently making the rounds.

Point Three: As Christians, we can’t accept the omnipotence of God on one issue and then deny it as it suites us on another. Biblical theology just doesn’t work that way.

Lawrence on May 21, 2007 at 3:28 PM

Does this also imply a literal interpretation of the Bible, as in Adam and Eve existed, Noah was however old, the world is only however many thousand years old, no evolution etc?

Those are some of the things “Fundamentalist” meant in the 1920s. The age of the earth has been conceded by most Christians (though not all). Evolution is still a minority view, though I think that has a lot to do with the in-yer-face atheism of many of its best-known proponents.

John on May 21, 2007 at 4:20 PM

Sure. It’s also the same Catholic church that says no to premarital/extramarital sex.

I don’t see the point in implying the Catholic church is somehow guilty (or at least complicit) in the spread of AIDS because they don’t advocate condoms when, if a person were 100% following Catholic teachings on abstinence and only having sex with your spouse, their chance of contracting AIDS (while not zero) would be much less.

JadeNYU on May 21, 2007 at 12:38 PM

Um, erm, Cardinal Alphonso Lopez de Trujillio,head of the Vatican’s family council auxilliary bishop of Rio De Janero, Cardinal Obando y Bravo of Nicaragua and Cardinal Emannuel Wamala of Uganda are certainly partially responsible for the spread of AIDS with some of their insane pronouncements regarding condoms.

From animals don’t use them to condoms not being able to stop the AIDS virus to actually saying that condoms are infected with AIDS. Yeah, so there’s a bit of a disconnect with me regarding Catholic missions caring for those dying with AIDS as opposed to them providing a way to stop the spread.

I know how AIDS is spread, you know how AIDS is spread. For the Church to misrepresent how AIDS is spread and how to stop the spread is borderline sick.

Those attributions came from Christopher Hitchens’ new book, God is not Great. Yay!

Krydor on May 21, 2007 at 4:28 PM

The age of the earth has been conceded by most Christians (though not all).

I am wondering if it is really possible to scientifically determine the age of the earth?

When God created the earth, I am assuming he created everything in a different stage of development. Adam was a fully grown man when God create him. Likewise, wouldn’t he have created saplings, mature trees, & “ancient” trees at the same time? I doubt the garden of eden was a sea of saplings two inches high!

I imagine, he would have done the same for all of the other geological features as well. Thus if we scientifically dated a rock created during the seven days, it would appear to be much older than it actually is.

I don’t think the above can be proven or disproved, so I will have to wait until I meet God and ask him myself. In the mean time, I am sure others of you will offer your opinion :)

jman on May 21, 2007 at 4:39 PM

Of course what Hitchens probably doesn’t mention is that Uganda is one of the few AIDS success stories in Africa because of its emphasis on abstinence and behavior modification.

He also probably doesn’t mention that the church he despises is taking care of a huge number of the AIDS orphans in Africa.

It has been nearly 2,000 years and we’re still waiting for the first atheist orphanage to open somewhere. The only one I know of is the one in the movie Cider House Rules.

John on May 21, 2007 at 4:41 PM

Religious vote up for grabs in 2008?

Entelechy on May 21, 2007 at 4:56 PM

A modest request: can we try to not turn every one of Bryan’s religion-and-politics post into a theological discussion, atheist versus religion smackdown, or Bible quote-a-palooza (ditto for Koran quote-a-palooza)? This is a political blog, not Beliefnet.

The original post was about the media’s lack of understanding of important issues within the politically significant evangelical community. I had a long paragraph in my first reply about my favorite mega-church theological issue, which is the non-use of the Apostle’s and Nicene creeds. I axed the paragraph before I hit the “submit” comment because my feelings on the creeds have no bearing on how evangelicals vote.

Let’s just stick to the politics, OK?

Anton on May 21, 2007 at 5:20 PM

John,

Couple of links for you Aids in Uganda and the Architect of the success. Yeah, so I’m pretty sure Hitchens is aware that a Marxist is responsible for coherent AIDS awareness and prevention in Uganda.

Cardinal Emannuel Wamala a fellow who is against condom use, period, full stop. So, once again, the disconnect for me is far to great. The securing of the eternal soul at the expense of the worldly body is stupid.

Krydor on May 21, 2007 at 5:28 PM

I don’t think the above can be proven or disproved, so I will have to wait until I meet God and ask him myself. In the mean time, I am sure others of you will offer your opinion :)

jman on May 21, 2007 at 4:39 PM

Do you truly think that this is the scenario that you will experience upon leaving your body?

I hear so many people say that they will ask Jesus this or that when they see Him, yet I wonder if they are just misled into thinking that Jesus will actually be interested in such things.

More likely, when you see Jesus the Christ, Heaven, the works, you won’t care about any of that other stuff. You will be too elevated and blissed out to care.

William

William2006 on May 21, 2007 at 7:25 PM

Do you truly think that this is the scenario that you will experience upon leaving your body?

Yes

I hear so many people say that they will ask Jesus this or that when they see Him, yet I wonder if they are just misled into thinking that Jesus will actually be interested in such things.

I think my Father would humor me.

More likely, when you see Jesus the Christ, Heaven, the works, you won’t care about any of that other stuff. You will be too elevated and blissed out to care.

Entirely possible

jman on May 21, 2007 at 7:43 PM

Let’s put it this way, as a Christian, if I attended rick warren’s church (I attend church a few times a year really)..with some of the things he has done and said, I’d have walked out. I have been wondering about that man for awhile as we begin to see what he’s really made of faith wise…and I’m not impressed.

I can honestly say, I have only come across one off the wall preacher in my 25+ yrs of going to church to many different churches…baptist, non denominational mostly.

Highrise on May 22, 2007 at 3:13 AM

Anton, I don’t know how to say this without it coming off as snotty, though that is NOT my wish. The staff makes the rules regarding comments, not you. If you don’t want to read Scripture references, dodge anything with my name on it. I live as much as I can by Biblical principles, and it speaks far, far better than I do about life, so I regularly quote God’s Word to make my points.

I will neither apologize for that nor cease it unless asked by the HA staff. I don’t use those quotes to browbeat people into agreeing with me, or to ascribe condemnation to people’s actions or motives, so it just shouldn’t be any tougher to read than a personal opinion.

I don’t bother asking people to refrain from profane language, though it offends me. The two reasons why I don’t are: 1) This isn’t my site, I don’t set the standards of behavior, and 2) In my experience it’s more likely to draw increased hostility against me than just ignoring it.

Freelancer on May 22, 2007 at 5:11 AM

The staff makes the rules regarding comments, not you. If you don’t want to read Scripture references, dodge anything with my name on it.

True enough, Freelancer, I don’t make the rules. I don’t find the Bible quotes tough to read, just ineffective. You’re not going to change anyone’s mind on politics by quoting Scripture. Liberals go deaf when you do so.

If we were on a religious forum, you might find me to the right of you on many Christian issues — and also, perhaps, able to out-quote you from the Bible. But in this forum I prefer to find common ground with conservatives of all or no religions. But I do find it helpful when Bryan posts discussions to explain Evangelicals to the un-familiar or outright prejudiced.

Anton on May 22, 2007 at 9:06 AM

But I do find it helpful when Bryan posts discussions to explain Evangelicals to the un-familiar or outright prejudiced.

Since the bible is the foundation of what Christians believe, why should we not use it to explain these beliefs?

NYT is probablly going to do a hit job on Christianity using churches that pick and choose (and sometimes twist) what the bible teaches. It is entirely appropriate to objectively use the Bible to set the record straight.

On another note, I understand scripture verses can turn people off, but it goes the other way as well.

so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty,but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)

It may not change a lot of people’s minds, but it sure did have an impact on my life when I heard it as an agnostic.

jman on May 22, 2007 at 11:02 AM

I see jman has my back. ;-)

If just one person who reads this site pauses and reflects on their life’s choices because of a Scripture reference, then it’s worth it all.

Anton, since you are so certain that people won’t change their mind or ways based on God’s Word, isn’t it ironic that you want me to change my ways based on your words?

Freelancer on May 22, 2007 at 1:27 PM

Freelancer and jman,

AllahP has yet another atheist post this morning over in the left column of the main page. I think we can all agree that he needs your participation in that thread .

Anton on May 22, 2007 at 1:43 PM

Sorry, the AllahP thread is on the right side column of the main page.

Anton on May 22, 2007 at 2:29 PM

anton

True enough, Freelancer, I don’t make the rules. I don’t find the Bible quotes tough to read, just ineffective.

Ineffective for You. Please don’t talk for everyone. Thanks.

Highrise on May 22, 2007 at 6:11 PM

On another note, I understand scripture verses can turn people off, but it goes the other way as well. jman on May 22, 2007 at 11:02 AM

Good point. We just have to quote it. We don’t have to pretend that everyone will accept it. (Hey, you’ll thank me later.)

Mojave Mark on May 23, 2007 at 12:17 AM

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