Chertoff: Some people think anything less than capital punishment is amnesty; Update: Chertoff does it again

posted at 7:18 pm on May 21, 2007 by Allahpundit

I missed this on Thursday in the aftermath of the deal being announced, but NRO didn’t. Here’s Bush’s own secretary of homeland security displaying raw contempt for the wishes of his party’s base by floating a derisive laugh line that would have fallen flat even on dKos.

Go read Barnett, especially numbers 7 and 9. “The Republican base at this moment has absolutely no faith in its leaders.”

Update: Unreal. From a Friday interview with Newsweek, again via NRO:

I understand that some people think it’s not tough enough. Maybe they want people thrown in jail for 10 years or they want people executed.

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A fence is not needed. Amnesty is not needed and Americans can and will do these jobs if the free market is allowed to function.

The ONLY way to fix this problem is to, without exception, penalize heavily any and all business found to be hiring and utlizing illegal alien labor. Aggressive enforcement and aggressive penalizing.

When it costs them more money to hire an illegal than it does a legal citizen, the problem is solved.

W/o the economic incentives, the rest is easy. No fence needed, border patrol can be reduced. Watch them go home all b themselves if there is no way to make money here.

JayHaw Phrenzie on May 21, 2007 at 7:58 PM

You know the people who answer the phone are not suddenly going to say, wow, you’re right! Don’t feel pessimistic because you didn’t get enthusiastic reaction. Some of the phone folks are probably exhausted (at least I hope so!).

I see this as reason for optimism. They’re following down the same trail they’ve gone before and it won’t calm people down or win them over. It’ll just makes folks madder. You really think they would learn. It really does remind me of the Miers debacle when there seemed to be a new insult every few days or so.

Keep calling and tell your senators you don’t appreciate being called a bigot or executioner when you have legitimate concerns.

INC on May 21, 2007 at 8:03 PM

I just emailed Reid about how stupid this bill is. What a disaster!

Mojave Mark on May 21, 2007 at 8:05 PM

Chertoff is the ultimate example of a useless bureaucrat who does nothing worthwhile and babbles at great length without saying a damn thing. All on our dime.

infidel4life on May 21, 2007 at 8:20 PM

Hmmmm… the fence would be a lot more dissuasive with a bunch of heads along the top of it…

What a moron.

am·nes·ty –noun 1. a general pardon for offenses against a government, often granted before any trial or conviction.

Tanya on May 21, 2007 at 8:23 PM

Why can’t we treat the southern border like a real border?

By that I mean when people run across it, we treat the action like an invasion, then treat the invaders like enemy combatants or spies. They are, after all, foreign nationals invading the United States, and if they are armed that makes them enemy combatants, and if they are unarmed that makes them infiltrators and spies. If we treated them as such, they’d probably be less inclined to sneak across the border.

Lehosh on May 21, 2007 at 8:35 PM

Yes there are: Abortion (which has killed far more people than Al Quaeda can dream of killing) and pseudo-pacifism (which will ensure the total annihilation of western civilisation). The root of both of these are liberalism, which is spreading like a great plague, especially in schools. Those generations of liberal indoctrinated youth will become the bulk of what America is. The fact is that conservatives are losing the pre-school indoctrination war and the media war. They always have, and it needs to change, or the Caliphate will find a docile population ripe for the picking where their greatest enemy used to stand.

Darth Executor on May 21, 2007 at 9:09 PM

Way to support the Dems, AP, just like last year. The rest of you guys really need a lesson in priorities. Maybe if you actually supported Bush, he could get things done. Even Reagan said that he never got anything done that the people didn’t do for him.

JohnJ on May 21, 2007 at 9:19 PM

You know, I really wish the loonie left would impeach Bush on whatever kookie thing they can think of. Maybe then Bush would realize that he’s sleeping with the enemy on this stuff. Maybe then he would try to be a populist with his party and the clear majority of American people.

The side benefit of impeachment would be that most folks would get to see really what the left is about: blind hatred.

In the end, though, there’s no way Bush would be removed from office because the Dems don’t have enough votes in the Senate to pull it off. But someone or something needs to remind him that he took an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution.

cmay on May 21, 2007 at 9:25 PM

I, for one, am not going to carry water for these a-holes for one more minute.

If this means Ms. President Clinton in ’08, so be it. In the immortal words of The Who: Won’t Get Fooled Again!

G.W. Bush has given the middle finger to me for the last time. Here’s one back at you, d*ck-head!

SailorDave on May 21, 2007 at 9:54 PM

One of the biggest problems with this is the perception that we’re getting a bargain for this ‘cheap’ labour. We’re not; businesses are able to defray the cost of a worker by pawning some of it off on the taxpayer. The tomato/bracero programme termination and Australia fruit farmer’s example prove that free markets come up with solutions to labour shortages.

If you are a business owner and can get away with paying someone less, but they take more in social services, your profits rise and you spread out the cost of having an employee (to the taxpayer). This is why the AGC, Chamber of Commerce, etc., are for it.

I’m all for making money, but why is it okay for an employer to break the law so he can make more? Usually that’s called embezzlement and generally it sends people to jail. Except in the cases of illegal workers, that is.

You know, I am sorry people have it hard but frankly, that’s not an excuse and people have it hard all over the world; it’s not a contest – ‘you’re better off than me, so I get to take from you’. No.

Nothing is guaranteed in life; I could wake up tomorrow and see a mushroom cloud over Seattle, 10 miles away, and wait for the shock wave to hit me. People need to be responsible for their own future. We don’t owe anyone anythng; we haven’t robbed Latin America of her resources, we aren’t criminals trying to negotiate remuneration to a victim for a crime. Illegal immigrants come here, steal SS numbers, use fake IDs all to ‘feed their families’ and they have their hands out for more… as if the rest of us don’t have families to feed and a right to spend our own bloody money. Need isn’t an excuse for lawbreaking. Are shoplifting laws going to be relaxed next? If you’re poor, you get off? If this goes through we have embarked on the first step in the decay of a civilised society, to say nothing of bankrupting systems we have all contributed a LOT to.

Illegal immigrants complain that paying a coyote is a sacrifice. That’s not sacrifice; coming to the land of milk and honey with your hand out making demands that you won’t make of your own country isn’t sacrifice; it’s selfishness.

As I’ve said before:

1. Tighten driver’s licence rules; licences now denote immigrant or citizen status.

2. Immigrants have an additional biometric ID; not citizens.

3. Enforce our current laws and make penalties stiffer for business owners who don’t properly vet employees.

4. Share data between Federal agencies so that duplicate or fraudulent use of SS numbers is traceable/trackable. This becomes a very serious offence.

5. Institute severe penalties for Federal employees who aid illegal aliens in obtaining aid (which they aren’t entitled to). Make it a Federal offence to do so.

6. Fingerprint apprehended illegal aliens; they are not permitted to ever apply for citizenship. Those who self deport and then apply in their own country will have a chance at any work visa/earned citizenship programmes we have. (Special dispensation may be given to someone who has been part of a legal citizenship programme but unwillingly disqualified themselves because of erroneous paperwork, for example). This can be announced and a month long grace period prior to its institution announced. I GUARANTEE that millions will self deport, if indeed, what they want is to be an American.

7. Allow the US employment scene to regularise; if we need low skilled labour, the market should be open to all unskilled labourers in the world and not comprised of a de facto working class that self-imported. Competition is good for everyone.

8. Build a fence; I know there are wildlife concerns and perhaps some small concessions can be made for that and high tech only solutions implemented at some spots.

9. Spank the leaders of the (primarily) Latin American countries who refuse to clean up their act and instead export people to America. Why are we always apologetic for our success? It was purchased with the blood, sweat and tears of patriots. Other countries can achieve similar; it just requires effort.

linlithgow on May 21, 2007 at 9:55 PM

JohnJ on May 21, 2007 at 9:19 PM

You have it back-asswards, it’s Bush who is supporting the Dems. Even Reagan signed an amnesty bill that promised enforcement but never delivered, proving that not everything he did was right for America. Only a fool would fall for the same load of crap again. We’re supposed to support this amnesty just because it’s Bush’s amnesty? No thank you, I prefer to think for myself.

infidel4life on May 21, 2007 at 10:03 PM

I actually generally agree with JayHaw, the first and biggest answer is to pound away at businesses and people that hire illegal immigrants until it becomes unprofitable or way too risky financially to hire them, than the problem will work itself out for the most part, but there will still be a big percentage that will latch onto the entitlement network, and those types will need to be weeded out, and of course those who are criminals beyond the illegal immigrant stuff (gang memebers and such). That said, border security and internal enforcement are still needed.

Bad Candy on May 21, 2007 at 10:18 PM

linlithgow:

Too much sense. I’m in rational ecstasy. Excellent post. It’s a post that I would expect from T.R., F.D.R., H.T., J.F.K., or R.R.

But it isn’t anything I’d expect from the current crop of PC jellyfish the halls of pre-political academia seem to be regurgitating these days.

Fred! is the only hope for America. Who else is for the Fred! – Mitt ticket?

SailorDave on May 21, 2007 at 10:18 PM

You prefer to think for yourself? It seems to me that you and everyone else here think very similiarly on this. If you really want to think about something, think about this: this bill isn’t half the disaster that a Clinton or Obama presidency would be. Maybe if the people here had supported the Republicans more in ’06, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

Many of you held out in ’06, and now you blame the result of your inaction on Bush. You’re like liberals that want someone to take care of you but you don’t ever want to do anything in return. But maybe you need a little suffering to remind yourself of just how good you had it. It’s just a shame you have to drag me down with you.

JohnJ on May 21, 2007 at 10:19 PM

arrogance and ignorance. the call letters of dubya’s legacy. at our expense. the only folks worse than most the members of our executive branch = the congress and the judicial. imagine that.

Griz on May 21, 2007 at 10:27 PM

JohnJ,

The gist of your argument seems to be “Vote Republican! Now only 75% as bad as Democrats!” This is a recipe for disaster for the Republican Party.

I’m not arguing that they aren’t the lesser of two evils, but it doesn’t seem like a winning strategy. Just like telling your entire base to go screw themselves, this bill is going through whether you racists like it or not.

cmay on May 21, 2007 at 10:33 PM

I DON’T WANT THEM THROWN IN JAIL OR EXECUTED DILHOLE I WANT THEM OUTA HERE!

sonnyspats1 on May 21, 2007 at 10:34 PM

WOW! So many anti business people posting on this site. Its the business mans fault. Those sorry a-holes. Trying to make money with out of control goverment regulations, taxes, other cost. Is there anyone who has a business. makes a payroll, hires people. I guess what you are surppose to do is hire people at $12 an hour to flip a burger, charge $8 for it, and if you can’t find the help because unemployment is at an all time low 4.5% (which includes the self-employed and unemployable, ie handy cap, they can’t do some jobs) you just go out of business. Your right just kick the business man in the mouth.
Go ahead and do it, and you think $3.10 a gallon of gass is high. unbelievable.
If we would cut off the social programs, close the border, have a guest worker program. Oh I forgot we don’t need them. Suck it up in the borders guys. Oh and by the way the post about supporting Bush, there are alot of people that post on this site that needs to bring themselves down a little bit and realize you can’t have everything. and to the dude who says he can live with a Mrs. Clinton Prez. What a complete dumb a*(*. You think it would be better. How about we just shoot them on site, how is that would that make you happy.

kara26 on May 21, 2007 at 10:46 PM

tomas, kara26:
You want a plan, here’s one – we should precisely mirror Mexico’s immigration policies and enforcement. What’s not fair about that?

As for our current system of allowing businesses to exploit an illegal underclass – personally I prefer to pay more. I sleep better at night knowing I’m not taking advantage of anyone or breaking any laws. As it is, illegal, artificially cheap labor depresses wages for everyone. I’m a small business owner. I don’t hire anyone but Americans. In fact I could make a good deal more outsourcing, but I don’t even do that. If you pay people an adequate wage, you have no problem finding labor. If not having the ability to exploit an illegal underclass puts you out of business, then you should be out of business. If we police our border the same way Mexico does, businesses and the market will adapt just as they did after slavery was abolished.

As for gas prices, please…! you think that refineries and petroleum companies rely heavily on illegal labor? I can’t speak for all states but I have spent a good deal of time in the Louisiana and Texas oil industry, including Chevron, Shell and ExxonMobil, and I can tell you now that it is predominantly American labor. I’m not just talking about office workers, I’ve been on-site at refineries for months at a time. If you want to make that argument, then make it, but you can’t just assert that as fact and expect it to go unchallenged.

Laura on May 21, 2007 at 11:21 PM

kara26 on May 21, 2007 at 10:46 PM

kara26,

That was the most illiterate, incomprehensible comment I believe I’ve ever seen on HotAir. You own your own business?

You’re not saving any money in the long run by hiring illegals. Come to California and see. In 10 years, your kids won’t be able to go to certain public schools because of their skin color, you won’t be able to drive through certain neighborhoods for the same reason, and crime will be rapant because of people like you hiring illegals. They’re all nice to your face. Come down here and see what the future of your area is going to look like, pal.

PRCalDude on May 21, 2007 at 11:32 PM

cmay, I think a recipe for disaster would be letting the Democrats win next year. This bill isn’t perfect, but it’s far, far better than getting so upset that you allow, or worse, advocate putting a Democrat in the White House next year. It’s the defeatism around here that gets under my skin.

JohnJ on May 21, 2007 at 11:47 PM

If you really want to think about something, think about this: this bill isn’t half the disaster that a Clinton or Obama presidency would be.

Here we go again with the same old tired line when a BushBot demands that we swallow the latest liberal load from President Kennedy Bush.

*Yawn*

Maybe if the people here had supported the Republicans more in ‘06, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

We supported him and his merry RINOs in ’00, ’02 and ’04, yet we still ended up with the mess of ’06, an Administration spending worse than Clinton.

Try this one: Maybe if the Republicans had supported the people that actually voted for them more, we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in now.

But maybe you need a little suffering to remind yourself of just how good you had it.

Oh yes. Outspending the biggest spender in history, complete and utter backpedaling on taking the war to the enemy while Syria and Iran murder our soldiers with impunity, full amnesty for illegal, unskilled aliens while hard-working, well-educated legal immigrants can’t get a foot inside the door, the Kennedy hoofprint on pretty much every Bill that gets the White House stamp of approval, McCain/Feingold etc. etc. etc.

We’ve never had it better, I tell you! I’m positively ecstatic!

We brung a cheap date to the dance, and she’s been dancing with Ted Kennedy ever since we got there. Time to ditch the cow and go to Hooters.

Misha I on May 22, 2007 at 12:04 AM

Hey hooters has good wings?

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 12:14 AM

kara26 on May 21, 2007 at 7:18 PM

Yeah, I’m gonna feel sorry for criminal business owners hiring criminal aliens and putting legal Americans out of work. Stop drinking the open borders KOOLAID and watch places like the SWIFT plants who had lines around the block of legal job applicants after the ICE raids last year. This story is repeated time after time so exactly what jobs will illegal aliens do that Americans won’t? Or is it that hiring Americans is not as cost effective when you have to pay them a decent wage and the costs that go along with being an employer? Maybe they’ll do the jobs that Americans won’t for $3 an hour. Sorry but hiring illegal aliens is a crime and it’s about time someone started enforcing the laws. We need a new sheriff in town and fast.

Buzzy on May 22, 2007 at 12:18 AM

Hey hooters has good wings?

Quite. And huuuuuuuge pairs of… Cold, frothy beers… Yes, that’s it.

Misha I on May 22, 2007 at 12:21 AM

JohnJ:

We haven’t left the Republican Party, the Republican Party left us.

infidel4life on May 22, 2007 at 12:47 AM

I’m not going to defend Chertoff but Texas, Arizona and California blogs for years have had numerous comments on heat seeking remote machine guns as part of the fence, light planes with grenade launchers etc. Believe it or not, its a credible statement (just one that was best left unsaid). To make matters worse some are on reputable sites run by conservatives, by conservative christians etc.

They don’t have Bryan and Allah moderating….

EricPWJohnson on May 22, 2007 at 1:02 AM

So we ned to take care of the border first?

tomas on May 22, 2007 at 7:12 AM

It’s the defeatism around here that gets under my skin.

JohnJ on May 21, 2007 at 11:47 PM

Hey, the Republicans are cutting their own throats. Chertoff and Bush are ignoring every point that the American people have when they demand border security. Instead, they call more than 70% of the US population a bunch of racists and pretend we’re lunatics.

There’s an old saying: When your opponent is self destructing, get out of his way. Do you notice how conspicuously absent most of the Dems are here. Harry and Nancy have made some shallow comments, but they are letting Bush and the Republicans take the beating for this travesty.

My point once again is that Republicans need to give people something to vote for. The specter of having Pelosi as Speaker did not get the vote out in ’06.

And, JohnJ, don’t shoot the messenger here because I’m only saying this is what has happened historically. And no matter how much it will be pointed out that Clinton or Obama will be worse in office, it won’t matter. The right wing of the party will vote with it’s feet.

cmay on May 22, 2007 at 8:26 AM

You had better vote for someone…So many have died for that right.

tomas on May 22, 2007 at 8:34 AM

Dr Thomas Sowell gets it. Here

Wade on May 22, 2007 at 9:54 AM

First, do away with Homeland Security. It’s obvious it’s just another black-hole of government spending. Use the money to build a wall, like they have in Israel. I’m sure there would still be enough money left over to hire more agents to arrest business owners who hire illegals.

Does anyone know if there is a list of the “big businesses” who are against sending illegals home? I want to make sure I don’t buy their products.

moonsbreath on May 22, 2007 at 9:56 AM

Your first statement is you pre-scripted talking point. He knew he was going to say that all along.

They are trying the liberal trick of making your opposition look like extremists. The GWB administration is out of control.

This guy is an ambassador for the boss. He is a cabinet member so when he speaks, the administration speaks. He is a PUTZ!

Where are the patriots to turn?

robman27 on May 22, 2007 at 10:28 AM

I just sent to DHS via their email tipline:

I do not appreciate the statements of Mr. Chertoff concerning those who oppose the immigration bill.

I suggest he direct his attention to the borders of this country, for which he has responsibility, or hand the reins over to someone who is willing to control them instead of making blanket public insults about citizens whose opinions he disagees with.

drunyan8315 on May 22, 2007 at 10:42 AM

I guess we’ll turn to Fred! or Mitt. We’re certainly not going to turn to McCain.

Laura on May 22, 2007 at 10:44 AM

The left has done its job looking at this forum…geez

tomas on May 22, 2007 at 10:51 AM

And can someone tell us who that other smirking anus is in the clip? I watched it but my blood pressure kind of went off the Richter scale, and with the roaring in my ears, I didn’t hear if his name was mentioned.

And just for the record:
1. Immigration reform is a complex subject, and that is exactly why it should be aired out and debated thoroughly, not rammed through in a smoke-filled room. If anyone asked, I’ll bet many of us who object to this process would admit we have no instant answers – that is not the point – the point is we are NOT being asked through the constutional mechanisms that are in place for that – clear policy statements, followed by elections.

2. I have no problem with legal immigration or legal immigrants. The whole conservative = rascist thing is bullshit, and the people on the left who push it, plus people like Chertoff who apparently find it useful, are using what they know is a lie to silence their critics. It ain’t about race, folks, it’s about national security, economic viability, and equal justice for both citizens AND LEGAL immigrants.

drunyan8315 on May 22, 2007 at 11:06 AM

I would respectfully suggest that, instead of bitching about RINOs, you consider getting involved in the party at the precinct level. Do you even know who is in charge of your local Republican Precinct committee?

Be part of the crew that decides who gets ponied up for nomination.

If the RINO corporate whores never attain nomination, they can’t screw us.

Kristopher on May 22, 2007 at 11:45 AM

And can someone tell us who that other smirking anus is in the clip?

Yeah, that clown is Carlos Gutierrez. Sec of Commerce.

csdeven on May 22, 2007 at 11:47 AM

Laura,
I am not an open border guy. I want a guest worker program. Prior to my post all i saw was bitching, no solutions. Gas price referance was not a comparison, just a statement of higher prices. I am happy that you have been able to higher well and succeed. What if you did not have good applicants, and you needed people for your business to continue. what would you do if you could not meet your customers demand with out highing english speaking hispanics that bring you the proper paper work, would you not hire them and let your business go under, would you go back to working for someone else. Could you make the money you make know by doing that, would you loose you home, be able to provide for your family. Things are different in different parts of the country. Blanket statements don’t fix things, it just shows that there is a lot of tunnel vision our there. Americans of stong and hard workers, but here is a news flash for alot of you, there are alot of lazy pieces of crap that will not show up to work out there to. Unemployment in this country is around 4.5% that is all most full employment. Guess who is counted in that number, you Laura and every self-employed person out there. Also the unemployable, (for certain jobs) handy caped, drugies and the lazy. Don’t leave alot. I have friends that hispanics working for them, they bring in the right paper work, show up to work and do a great job. They want to hire Americans, but no applicants, they have house payments, kids and bills. I guess they should take a stand and loose everything so someone else will hire the hispanics meet market demand and provide for there families while my friends go bankrupt. This issue is not the a business man problem.

PR – Did I say I hire illegals, did I? did i say shut down the border, cut of social programs, deport criminals, i believe i did. but remember there are two sides of this, Security and compassion. I believe conservatives are for both.

Buzzy – Where can i hire $3 hour labor – i am all in. Do you know some one make $3 an hour, tell them I’ll pay $4.5. You got some friends that want to pick apples and can’t get a job or something. Or did your Bank Manager friend loose his job because Bank of America hire a illegal to run the bank for $3 an hour. That is just plain stupid.

By the way do you people really think that your wages would be that much more if they were not here, and don’t you know what happens when wages go up, prices go up. What happens everytime minum wage is increased, don’t you notice price increases. By the way if you make 50G a year and minum goes up does yours, NO.

Security and compassion is the answer, its the start.

Racist People
How many of your ancestors came here and did not go through immagration. I am not saying its right, but for Gods sake.

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 11:54 AM

You think unlimited immigration is good. Ask the American Indians.

Just because someone does not like illegal aliens and the free access they have to our system, does not make them a racist.
You don’t like national health care? You are a baby killer.
You don’t like affirmative action? Must be a bigot.
You don’t like amnesty? Must be a racist.
A tired and trite line, designed to stop debate.

Send your kids to a Santa Ana or San Diego school and see the money being drained from citizens. Go to an emergency room any night in those cities and see where our health care money goes to. How about compassion to the people who pay for the system, who have built the system, who have supported the system with their tax dollars. Come here legally, live here legally, and you have my support and probably the very great majority of conservatives. Sneak in, hire and illegal, and you are on your own.

Where is your compassion for those who have sacrificed? Yet you have compassion for those who steal.

If you hire illegal aliens, my suggestion is that you hire the lawyers to make them legal before you get caught. Show your compassion and lawyer up.

right2bright on May 22, 2007 at 12:33 PM

kara26 –
You worry about higher prices, but later in the same comment you say that when wages go up, prices go up. Exactly. So higher prices are not a concern, because the higher wages offset them.

If someone comes in with paperwork that appears legitimate to a reasonable person, then I have no problem with that person being given a job. But using the Swift plant as an example – they were hiring dozens of people with the same (or no) social security number. They knew exactly what they were doing. I object to them getting off basically scot-free for that. And as was pointed out earlier in this thread, when they lost their illegals, they offered higher wages and Americans lined up around the block for those jobs.

I guess they should take a stand and loose everything so someone else will hire the hispanics meet market demand and provide for there families while my friends go bankrupt. This issue is not the a business man problem.

So it’s okay to exploit an illegal underclass because “everybody’s doing it”? Would you accept that rationalization from your children, if you have any? If they only way they can run their business is by intentionally violating the law, and by exploiting people who are outside the law, you’re d@mn right they should “lose everything.” They can find another way to earn a living; people do it all the time.

Laura on May 22, 2007 at 12:44 PM

Racist People How many of your ancestors came here and did not go through immagration.

:::Raises hand:::

One set of mine came here in the ship’s hold. But then that practice stopped and the progeny of the commodity became American citizens.

The thing is this: all large scale migrations in the past 150 years were composed of a finite number–except the Mexican one. There cannot be a large scale assimilation to the mores of this country for the Mexican illegal immigrants if a) there is no will for the citizens to stop catering to the practices of the old country b) there is always a new crop of immigrants to assimilate c) the USA has no way to monitor such immigrants, due to the fact of illegality.

All of your commentary about short-term economic realities is nice and rings true, but at some point in the longer term, we’ll all have to adjust to the unforseeable costs and realities of allowing unlimited immigration of illiterates who don’t speak English and who are from a third-world autocracy, that’s darn-near an apartheid state.

baldilocks on May 22, 2007 at 1:22 PM

Laura – Don’t get emotional. See what happens here is people put out blanket statements. I do not agree with the Swift thing yes they were trying to break the law. But that is not the norm, it just is not. And the question to you was would you be willing to loose everything. You did not answer that for yourself, you answered it for anyone else.

You worry about higher prices, but later in the same comment you say that when wages go up, prices go up. Exactly. So higher prices are not a concern, because the higher wages offset them.

That is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. If prices going up is a great thing than raise yours and pay your people lots more money.

You probaly own a cleaning business with about 50 illegals right now. LOL

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 1:36 PM

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs)
Hundreds of them
Hovering along the miles of open borders
24/7/365
UAVs attack anyone and anything going in or coming out
No execptions
No excuses

ScottMcC on May 22, 2007 at 2:19 PM

Not my line, but it’s too good not to borrow:

When you reward a criminal with the object of their crime, requiring nothing more than a token “penalty”, that is amnesty… plain and simple. We do not catch car thieves and allow them to purchase the car they stole for pennies on the dollar!

Bloodhound on May 22, 2007 at 3:01 PM

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 1:36 PM
I’ll answer you in small words, since that’s what you seem to require:

It is morally and legally wrong to knowingly hire illegals. Yes, I absolutely would close my business before I resorted to doing that.

Prices going up is neither bad nor good; it’s neutral. So you needn’t worry about it.

Laura on May 22, 2007 at 3:30 PM

kara26,
I’m already tired of seeing the line or its variation…..
they are just trying to take of/support their families (whether it references the illegal or business owner)…….so is any other criminal. Every time an illegal uses our public services they are stealing plain and simple. Every time a business owner hires an illegal they are breaking the law.

There are laws to ensure society runs fairly smoothly. If everyone gets to decide what laws they want to follow then we’ll have anarchy.

I can think of plenty of laws I don’t want to follow. Since I would be trying to provide for my family I guess it would be okay to break them right?

VikingGoneWild on May 22, 2007 at 3:36 PM

I never get the link right.

“The Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants to the U.S. Taxpayer.”

moonsbreath on May 22, 2007 at 4:50 PM

moonsbreath on May 22, 2007 at 4:50 PM

Nevermind.

moonsbreath on May 22, 2007 at 4:50 PM

Swift thing yes they were trying to break the law. But that is not the norm, it just is not…
kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 1:36 PM

It is not the norm where you live (so you think), but it is the norm on the border states. Even the immigration office in Orange County, California was embarrassed being caught hiring illegal immigrants. The norm in California manufacturing is having illegal immigrants on the payroll. That is the problem, people think it is isolated because the MSM won’t cover the real story. When you have nearly 20% of the economy and the number one produce provider in the country relying on illegal immigrants to process their products and food, than you have to know there is a problem. I never walked into a manufacturing plant that did not have illegal immigrants running machines. Anyone who does not think the norm is having illegal workers on the workforce is either very naive, ignorant, or juss wants to ignore the facts.
BTW, do you think all of the homes being built in North Carolina are being built by legal immigrants?

right2bright on May 22, 2007 at 5:20 PM

not only border states, but inner cities as well. DC for one. NYC as well. I’d have to start bringing a boxed lunch to work if I wanted to avoid employers that hire illegals, and it aint just mexicans either.

flipflopper on May 22, 2007 at 5:55 PM

laura – Good for you, not many people would admit they would chose to loose everything over hireing an hispanic that might be illegal. So really good for you if that is your conviction.

Viking – You give me the notion that you are anti business. No it is not a perfect world. We in the US are not perfect. The funny thing is they break the law to come here, and some in the US break the law by highering them (legal status question maybe) to do the same thing, to make money and provide for family.

You know I said it once and I will say it again, 20+ plus years down one road, we will not change direction over night.

One thing that ALL of us are going to have to live with is compromise. I want all Social programs and free medical care ended today. I want doctors to report hispanic pregnancy, to ship them back to have their kids in mex.(illegals, hay if business men should be able to point them out, than smart rich doctors should be) I want a 10 layer border fence (Ok maybe 3). I might get the fence but medical care and social programs, i am a realist, that ain’t going to happen. So I will have to live with the compromise.

I don’t want to fine who is here, who cares. They built alot of houses, washed alot of your dishes, cook alot of your food, and picked it (weather you know it or not) cut the grass and dig the ditches. Yeh there are some sorry low life business men who have done some pretty bad stuff, but it ain’t all bad.

Look this is my last post, and what i wanted to see which i did not was the compassion side of the conservative party, no one showed it, it was all the hell with them they broke our laws by comeing here to work. Hey I understand the arguement and agree with alot of it, but we have to show compassion. Compassion is not a free pass, but it helps you look at things through the window on the other side of the room, you can see some of the same stuff, you just might see it with a little LOVE.
I don’t want to be the one that has to answer to Jesus, for not haveing compassion along with tuff love for my fellow man.

Good debate all, some of it at least.

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 6:04 PM

kara26,

Explain to me again why I should be in any way compassionate or merciful to people who have shown hostility to our culture and our way of life? Did you see the American flag flying upside down beneath the Mexican flag on May 1 of 2006? Have you not understood their stated goal of taking back the American southwest? Have you not seen how poorly they assimilate into our society? Have you not seen their proclivity for gang violence? If people have a right to self-defense, to say that cultures and nations do not would be absurd. SELF DEFENSE.

PRCalDude on May 22, 2007 at 6:24 PM

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 6:04 PM

I’m getting really sick of seeing yahoos claiming that we’re just bitchin and not doing anything (how many frakin times do I have to repeat that I’ve emailed and called and spread the word on this issue every frakin day??). Not to mention, sick and darn tired of hearing the whiny nonsense about “jobs Americans won’t do”. It’s bullshite and you need to pull your head out of your a$$. If this were the case then the “marches” would have shut down our economy. They did not. It’s a ridiculous myth, perpetuated by ignorant pro-illegal blowhards.

As to the fact that you live in NC…If I find out where your business is and that you hire illegals, I’m reporting your rump personally. Just because “everyone does it” doesn’t make it any less illegal or wrong.

As to compassion…I’d rather give my compassion to those who follow the rules and don’t show contempt for me and my country by shirking our laws and leeching off of us.

I can cook my own food, make my own bed, wash my own frakin dishes. The law-breakers don’t deserve my compassion.

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 6:45 PM

I apologize to everyone for my outburst (except to whom my response applies.)

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 6:59 PM

laura – Good for you, not many people would admit they would chose to loose everything over hireing an hispanic that might be illegal. So really good for you if that is your conviction.

kara26; work on your reading comprehension, please. I said I would not hire an illegal, not that I would not hire a hispanic person.

As to answering to Jesus – it is the function of the government to dispense justice, not mercy.

Laura on May 22, 2007 at 7:31 PM

Hear, hear, Laura!

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 7:45 PM

Jeez, I could never have voted for Kerry, but between the incompetence seen in Iraq policy, and the immigration issue (are there any two bigger issues facing the US now???) …

I regret voting for Dubya. There was no alternative, but I don’t feel better about it.

doufree on May 21, 2007 at 12:23 PM

I’m beginning to wonder what the real difference was.

Anyway, it’s good to see that my instincts were right. Chertoff is the slimy, sleezy prick that I always knew he was.

Wolfman on May 22, 2007 at 8:33 PM

Laura I really mean it good for you, not shite I’am not degrading you. I applaud you will and convictions.

Takeing personal jabs at my lack of spelling (not my best feature by the way) or running stuff together when i try to type fast. Sorry you need to include that in your arguement.

Tickle -
Have I called you out, no. I have not read every post every posted on Hot Air. So congrads to you for putting work behind you convictions. I do not own a business. So relax. I am just a tabacco picker trying to get a job for $8 an hour. By the way do you realize you just comunicated a treat in print, to some one you don’t know or even know what I do. It would be wise to watch that. I place hypothetical argurments out there and some stuff i believe to stir up debate. Look back on this post, prior to my first post I saw alot of complaining and no substance (not everyone tickle, we know you’ve been calling, etc.) I wanted to hear ideas. I’ll leave you with this, where you live is worse than where I live. Your problem in the southwest has been going on for, I don’t know how long. I don’t get angry with your opinion of the situation. Debate son, calm civil debate.

Laura sorry for any miss spellings and grammer, I’ll try to do better.

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 8:54 PM

By the way with a name of “tickleddragon” is that your code name in the “Log Cabin Republicans”

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 9:07 PM

kara26, I didn’t criticize your spelling or your grammar. I criticized that fact that you said I would choose to lose everything “over hiring a hispanic that might be illegal.”

That is just not true. What I said was that I would not hire an illegal - and I certainly would not assume a latino was illegal. When you receive someone’s I9 form – which is mandatory when you hire someone – you are required to check their ID, and it’s very specific about acceptable documents. As long as those documents can be produced and I had no reason to question them, I would hire the person. Where the employer signs the form, the text reads, “I attest, under penalty of perjury, that I have examined the documents presented by the above named employee, that the above listed documents appear to be genuine and to relate to the employee named, that the employee began employment on ___ and that to the best of my knowledge the employee is eligible to work in the United States.”

Mind you, I have a very small business; I’m not trying to make it sound as though I have this huge company. But I take this responsibility seriously – and companies that deliberately scam the system really tick me off.

Laura on May 22, 2007 at 9:33 PM

Laura your right, you did say illegals and I know that there is a wide range out there. Sorry I said hispanic because that is the most talked about. And I do agree with you on you later, companies that do not requir proper ID are wrong and should pay the price. Not the small business owner that checks and recieves what they need.

But you have to admit, when the passion of this debate gets going ALL BUSINESS men and women get lumped it together. And that does not add up, there are employers out there that have illegals working for them and they don’t know it.
Probally would be nice to give them a simple area to check numbers without paying for it, would you like that?

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 9:39 PM

Viking – You give me the notion that you are anti business.
kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 6:04

Wrong again. I a capitalist pig but I also live my life according to the law. If one of my co workers breaks the law by stealing from the company do I turn a blind eye since they are trying to “provide for their family?” No. Hell no! The concept is the same here. Illegals and the businesses which hire them are stealing. Plain and simple. No matter how much you spin and smear the bottom line is they are criminals. No if’s, no ands and no buts.

No it is not a perfect world. We in the US are not perfect. The funny thing is they break the law to come here, and some in the US break the law by highering them (legal status question maybe) to do the same thing, to make money and provide for family.
kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 6:04 PM

See my response below which I posted earlier. You’re starting to become a one trick pony. Try to come up with something different about how it is okay to steal.

kara26,
I’m already tired of seeing the line or its variation…..
they are just trying to take of/support their families (whether it references the illegal or business owner)…….so is any other criminal. Every time an illegal uses our public services they are stealing plain and simple. Every time a business owner hires an illegal they are breaking the law.

There are laws to ensure society runs fairly smoothly. If everyone gets to decide what laws they want to follow then we’ll have anarchy.

I can think of plenty of laws I don’t want to follow. Since I would be trying to provide for my family I guess it would be okay to break them right?

VikingGoneWild on May 22, 2007 at 3:36 PM

VikingGoneWild on May 22, 2007 at 10:15 PM

Question for Chertoff, et al:

Why aren’t you all enforcing the already existing laws?

(Adding more things for them to ignore seems fatuous.)

profitsbeard on May 22, 2007 at 10:25 PM

By the way do you realize you just comunicated a treat in print, to some one you don’t know or even know what I do. It would be wise to watch that.
kara26

Where on earth to begin…
Telling you that I will report your illegal activities if I find out who your business is…is not a “treat”. It’s not even a threat. It’s a simple statement of fact. Break the law, I’m not adverse to pointing it out to the authorities. And I have every right to do so, if not an outright civic duty to do so. So, your admonishment is wasted there.

I’ll leave you with this, where you live is worse than where I live. Your problem in the southwest has been going on for, I don’t know how long. I don’t get angry with your opinion of the situation. Debate son, calm civil debate. Kara26

I’m not in the Southwest. As stated, I’m in NC, and it has one of the highest illegal immigrant influxes in the country (with deference to border states).

Debate is a good thing, but your drumbeat at folks “complaining and not doing anything” when it has been stated by others and by me that we are angry but also acting, was getting to be ridiculous. Not to mention the soapbox you were standing on while admonishing. tsk tsk.

By the way with a name of “tickleddragon” is that your code name in the “Log Cabin Republicans”

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 9:07 PM

Hon, I don’t even know who the “Log Cabin Republicans” are, and I’m not a “son”. I’m a “daughter”. And what kind of zinger was that supposed to be??

You obviously don’t pay attention to anyone’s comments but your own…and are relatively new to this site, or you’d know I was a North Carolinian female.

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:36 PM

viking your right and i am wrong. round them up and send them back. lets start tomorrow. from your friendly one tricked pony.

i did not say it was ok, dumb A@@, I said show compassion. Its not a free pass. Understand why they do it, and find away to help, not condone, look the other way or let continue.

for Gods sake, stop drinking “The Hell with Them Koolaid”

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:37 PM

OT: Say, why is it today, specifically, after a year on this site, that people keep making snarky comments about my username? ;)
It’s a silly Potter reference, for pity’s sake.

The Hogwarts motto is “Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus”, which is “Never tickle a sleeping dragon” in Latin.

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:41 PM

i did not say it was ok, dumb A@@, I said show compassion. Its not a free pass. Understand why they do it, and find away to help, not condone, look the other way or let continue.

for Gods sake, stop drinking “The Hell with Them Koolaid”

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:37 PM

And THIS from our “compassionate” friend. sheesh.

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:42 PM

tickleddragon have not read any of your previous post. My post were back and forth to others, you jumped into a debate betwee me and others. tough you were a guy, log cabin is the gay part of republican party. get it, now if you would have been a guy and had the name tickleddragon, that would have been funny, you got to admit that. not funny since your a girl. oh well, would have been real funny.

and of corse you are not perfect, because i stated i have not read evey post on this site.

i took it as a treat to me, make you arguement without treats, and you will be heard. Perception is reality. Treats that do not pertain to me, i am not breaking the law. your anger made that statement.

Tickled don’t take stuff people post personal, its all opinions, be angry at the goverment that has allowed it for 20 plus years, not people who agree with 3/4 of your argument and disagree with 25%. You don’t have all the answers and neither do I. But my guess is you want agree, and in your world its black and white, no grey. There is alot of grey out there and all ways will be.

good nite

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:48 PM

And THIS from our “compassionate” friend. sheesh.

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:42 PM

your right should not have said dumb a##. see i get passionate to. I see other arguements and respect them. Others on this site do not.

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:53 PM

got the quote thing wrong, my bad

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:53 PM

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:48 PM

Just because you perceive what I said as a “treat” (get it right, it’s “threat”) does not make it one. If I’d been threatening something illegal, then you’d have a leg to stand on. But since I was threatening to call authorities on illegal activities, I am fully in my rights, and you’ve got nothing. So, just shut up about being “treatened”.

Last time I checked, Kara, this was a forum…an open forum. I didn’t see that a discussion was totally roped off to you and a couple of others. You made statements, and I had the same right as anyone else to comment. Your statements were silly, so I called you on it. As did others. Why don’t you try not to be so sensitive. Gonna call others inactive complainers…expect to be called on the carpet by whoever finds it stupid and unreasoned.

I am angry at the government…but I’m also angry with those that make excuses FOR government passing this ridiculous legislation.

I never claimed to have all the answers, and I never claimed you did or didn’t. But stop trying to lecture me and others on the colors of the world. I recognize black, white, grey, green, yellow etc.
You just come off as a preachy self-righteous jerkoff…when you probably aren’t one in real life.

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:56 PM

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:56 PM

Me thinks Kara26 is trying to hard to type poorly and mispell. I get the feeling that we have an emerging troll here. Or someone who wants to get back on the thread that was banned. Something is not right with her posts, read them over and you will see a pattern.

right2bright on May 23, 2007 at 8:00 AM

Chertoff and Bush make me proud that my voter registration card has “NP” under party affiliation. Not that I could EVER vote for a Dem…..but I do not want to be associated with the party of these two pathetic fools, either. A true conservative in ’08 would make me such a happy camper.

lynnv on May 23, 2007 at 8:32 AM

right2bright

No i just suck at spelling and typeing. Never been band.

kara26 on May 23, 2007 at 9:48 AM

viking your right and i am wrong. round them up and send them back. lets start tomorrow. from your friendly one tricked pony.

i did not say it was ok, dumb A@@, I said show compassion. Its not a free pass. Understand why they do it, and find away to help, not condone, look the other way or let continue.

for Gods sake, stop drinking “The Hell with Them Koolaid”

kara26 on May 22, 2007 at 10:37 PM

Please see VikingGoneWild on May 21, 2007 at 4:39 PM #9 & #10. 12 months should be more than enough to handle their affairs and move back to their own country to start the process properly.

I’m sorry I just can’t muster compassion for law breakers, illegals or the business which hire them.

VikingGoneWild on May 23, 2007 at 10:13 AM

tickleddragon on May 22, 2007 at 10:56 PM
Me thinks Kara26 is trying to hard to type poorly and mispell. I get the feeling that we have an emerging troll here. Or someone who wants to get back on the thread that was banned. Something is not right with her posts, read them over and you will see a pattern.

right2bright on May 23, 2007 at 8:00 AM

Thanks, Right2bright. I wasn’t thinking “troll”. From the spelling and grammar, I was just thinking “young’un”.

tickleddragon on May 23, 2007 at 11:00 AM

You know, now that I think about this…Right2Bright
Something IS indeed strange about Kara26. The words that he/she is misspelling, are ones that someone has just spelled correctly in the previous comments.

“threat/treat”, “banned/band”

That’s not sucky spelling…that’s purposeful…OR he/she is truly “slow”.

You’re busted, Kara26.

tickleddragon on May 23, 2007 at 11:09 AM

tickleddragon on May 23, 2007 at 11:09 AM

I nailed bradky through the same observations.

Good call tickleddragon.

csdeven on May 23, 2007 at 9:58 PM

Thanks, CS. ;)

tickleddragon on May 24, 2007 at 12:43 AM

i’m busted. i don’t know what that means. just some one who sees thing differently. not a troll. just am not taking my time when i type. y’all be good ya here.

kara26 on May 24, 2007 at 6:40 PM

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