Like Al Gore’s absurd 20 foot sea level claim. Lefties just swallow whole anything they are told that reinforces their prejudice.

He writes, “And that’s the main point I want to make today. You might think that providing universal health care coverage is going to solve a big health care problem in America. If that’s what you think, I’m guessing that you have not delved into the matter in any great detail. I am only just beginning my own inquiry, and I’ve immediately stumbled on two issues that make this a hard problem, not evil corporate Republicans vs. decent and caring Democrats. My first eye-opening discovery was that access to new, life-saving (and extremely expensive) cancer drugs is much faster in America than anywhere else in the world. It might make sense to deny Americans access to these life saving drugs and to use the money saved to provide health insurance to the poor, but the point is that there are tradeoffs to be made. Once you come to appreciate that fact, the needle on your outrage detector will come down off its maximum value. I read somewhere that Michael Moore thinks that France has the best health care system in the world. Maybe, but I don’t think he’d hold that view if he lived in France and had cancer (and was told that they pay for their number-one system by not paying for the extremely expensive drugs that could save his life).

My second surprise was that the lack of access to regular health care in America was largely due to factors unrelated to health care coverage, which means that providing universal coverage won’t address that issue in any way.”

They are looking into a Shriners’ Hospital in Washington state I believe.

Great system you got there. It’s an even worse case of the haves and have nots.

To clarify John’s point, which Moore uses against the US system, you have to take into account that 12.5% of US births in 2005 were preterm, thanks to high numbers of IVF multiples and exacerbated by illegal – er, sorry, undocumented residents who don’t show up for prenatal care. In some countries, births before 28 weeks or weighing less than 1 pound are considered miscarriages or stillbirths and don’t figure into infant mortality, which is deaths per live births. Until the 90’s, a baby had to live at least 7 days in Russia to be considered a “live birth.” “Stillbirth” still has a rather flexible definition in some areas where male children are highly preferred. So take the US’s “high infant mortality rate” with a grain of salt.

Quisp on May 21, 2007 at 7:03 AM

Thank you for pointing this out. Our country is being “penalized” for trying to save nearly hopeless babies. Some live and some do not. In most other countries, those babies are just considered completely hopeless and no efforts are made to save them – and they are never counted in the infant mortality rate.

The infant mortality ratings are hardly apples to apples.

We can have that now, actually. Back when I was widowed, pregnant, and applying but not yet approved for welfare/Medicaid, I needed to use the local charity hospital. I was in the hospital for four days because of complications – and it was entirely free. Once I was approved for welfare and Medicaid, I could go to a much nicer hospital, still with no bill. And since I had my daughter and got a job with insurance, I’ve enjoyed even better healthcare – available pretty much instantly, no need to wait in line.

Our absolute minimum standard of care seems to be equal to what you routinely get. Still think your system is better?

Laura on May 21, 2007 at 8:59 AM

Excellence point Laura.

I think many Americans would kill to have a free week in a shabby hospital room.

Seixon on May 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM

We can have that now, actually. Back when I was widowed, pregnant, and applying but not yet approved for welfare/Medicaid, I needed to use the local charity hospital. I was in the hospital for four days because of complications – and it was entirely free. Once I was approved for welfare and Medicaid, I could go to a much nicer hospital, still with no bill. And since I had my daughter and got a job with insurance, I’ve enjoyed even better healthcare – available pretty much instantly, no need to wait in line.

Our absolute minimum standard of care seems to be equal to what you routinely get. Still think your system is better?

If you’re making more than $22k a year, the 11% income tax will cost you more than $200/month. What’s the median income in Norway.

The US has an unusually high infant mortality rate for an industrialized nation

To clarify John’s point, which Moore uses against the US system, you have to take into account that 12.5% of US births in 2005 were preterm, thanks to high numbers of IVF multiples and exacerbated by illegal – er, sorry, undocumented residents who don’t show up for prenatal care. In some countries, births before 28 weeks or weighing less than 1 pound are considered miscarriages or stillbirths and don’t figure into infant mortality, which is deaths per live births. Until the 90′s, a baby had to live at least 7 days in Russia to be considered a “live birth.” “Stillbirth” still has a rather flexible definition in some areas where male children are highly preferred. So take the US’s “high infant mortality rate” with a grain of salt.

Thanks in large part to the litigiousness of our society, the insurance industry, and the innate greed of many administrators in the medical profession, our rates are the highest in the world. This would be great if the care was also the best.

There are many horror stories about our system as there are about those of other countries.

I do not always agree with Moore – however, he is good at generating discussion, and that has value in itself if we can bring about positive change instead of endless finger waggling and blaming.

Perhaps the real issue should be identifying and then figuring out how to fix our problems so that we truly have the best health care in the world.

We are capable of doing it, but does the industry really want to?

I’m pretty sure that those of us who are consumers want positive change.

I think many Americans would kill to have a free week in a shabby hospital room.

Seixon on May 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM

The only time I’ve been to a doctor in the last seven years was my retirement physical from the Navy. Same goes for my wife and kids, other than standard exams for college/sports, no doctor visits. As a veteran, I can get a (very) few things without cost, but I still find it far more satisfying (and less expensive) to just stay healthy.

“Free” anything provided by a government is a baldfaced lie. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Those who pay the most in taxes ALWAYS receive the least in benefits, that’s just what social*sm is all about. It isn’t fair, and it doesn’t work properly. Government has no business being involved in the health care industry, all they will do is drive it further into the swamp.

http://www.thestar.com/artsentertainment/article/215801

Decent article dealing with moore and what canada thinks lol. They even admit he tells lies.

Seixon on May 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM

I think many Americans would kill to have a free week in a shabby hospital room.

Seixon on May 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM

The smart and sane Americans (many, contrary to what the snooty people around the world and some here believe) know that nothing is free. The rest is just soc**list babble.

I work in the U.S. hospital system and will not comment on the Canadian or other systems, lest I write you a novel – not the time, the place, nor the forum.

The American system is not perfect, and would not be designed like this, given a completely blank platform to start from scratch. But all others suck comparably from a medical, technological and customer service standpoint. Yes, stupid things and mistakes happen in all systems, but I assure you that Russia and Canada have reused catheters, from one patient to another, after washing them off with distilled water, and the U.S. hasn’t and will not. In Europe after a certain age, not even the discussion of whether or not the elderly person should be considered for stents, takes place because “they’ve lived long enough and the ‘free’ healthcare can’t pay for that”.

I know the Canadian system inside and out (family member was terminally ill there for many years), and am glad it is over there.

Needless to repeat my com**nist experiences, which I shared before.

Our system needs adjustments for sure, from the perspectives of the payers, providers, employers, insured, systems, IT, etc. – but it doesn’t need to immitate any other in the world, as they are all inferior for the patients.

Also, you paid that extra in taxes every year of your life — even when you didn’t need the medical care. That’s called a subsidy. I am young and relatively fit, if overweight, and am more than happy to go without insurance over the short run. I’d just as soon not subsidize those who actually need the care as I assume they’d rather not subsidize me.

I wonder if Bill Gates or Warren Buffett has health insurance…

And I’m someone who thinks that if we sealed the borders and fined employers, etc. who aid the millions of illegals who have invaded America, we could then afford health coverage for all legal Americans from the billions saved which are now squandered on the scofflaw thieves and lawbreaking infil-traitors mooching on our system.

A cvilized country should provide education and health care.

(You want stupid sick people around you?)

But only for its own citizens.

(And no free health care for prisoners until after all non-cc\riminals have it, first. (To turn one Moore-ism on its head- about the Gitmo prisoners getting better free health care than 9/11 emergency worker. I agree. They should get nothing but free lead injections.)

If you’re paying more taxes for it, IT’S NOT FREE. Honestly, if you can’t grasp that, there’s not much point in listening to you.

I’d ask how much the average Norwegian pays in income and sales taxes and how much of that goes toward medical insurance, but I’m not confident of the accuracy of the source of the figures you’d give me.

If you want something screwed up just have the government run it. (BTW I work for the government.)

Mojave Mark on May 21, 2007 at 12:21 AM

Uh oh, big brother is here watching.