Shock: Moore accused of distorting facts to serve new film’s agenda
posted at 9:27 pm on May 20, 2007 by Allahpundit
Hey, that’s what makes propaganda propaganda.
I look forward to the obligatory scene of Canadian children flying kites outside the emergency room.
We Canucks were taking issue with the large liberties Sicko takes with the facts, with its lavish praise for Canada’s government-funded medicare system compared with America’s for-profit alternative.
While justifiably demonstrating the evils of an American system where dollars are the major determinant of the quality of medicare care a person receives, and where restoring a severed finger could cost an American $60,000 compared to nothing at all for a Canadian, Sicko makes it seem as if Canada’s socialized medicine is flawless and that Canadians are satisfied with the status quo.
Moore makes the eyebrow-raising assertion that Canadians live on average three years longer than Americans because of their superior health care system…
Other Canadian journalists spoke of the long wait times Canadians face for health care, much longer than the few minutes Moore suggests in Sicko. Moore, who has come under considerable fire for factual inaccuracies in his films, parried back with more questionable claims.
“You’re in a longer line than we’re in because you get to live three years longer than we do. Why is that?” Moore said.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Say it ain’t so, Michael!
My sister is a nurse in Canada. She’s not particularly impressed with the Canadian system. Any healthcare program that makes a pregnant woman wait a month and a half or so for a prenatal exam is somewhat dysfunctional.
Slublog on May 20, 2007 at 9:35 PM
Well, according to Wikipedia, the life expectancy in the US is 78, and 80.34 in Canada. Respectively for males it is 75.15 vs 76.98; for females it is 80.97 vs 83.86. So…
I’m not so sure how “eyebrow-raising” the assertion that Canadians live three years longer than Americans is.
Pick your battles, folks.
Moore didn’t say that the Canadians are living longer due to the system, but that they are in line longer due to living longer…
Come on chaps, figure out the placement of the because in this sentence:
“You’re in a longer line than we’re in because you get to live three years longer than we do. Why is that?”
It seems the Canadian journalist who wrote this piece has reversed the sentence to make it “eyebrow-raising”.
Although, I wouldn’t put it past Moore to claim that Canadians live longer due to their health care system – he doesn’t seem to have done it in his response to the journalists.
There are way too many factors between Americans and Canadians to figure out if that’s the case, anyways.
Seixon on May 20, 2007 at 9:48 PM
big freakin surprise
Defector01 on May 20, 2007 at 9:50 PM
Please….
Waiting time for a MRI in Ontario ~108 on average.
Waiting time for a MRI in buffalo NY, same day
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on May 20, 2007 at 9:50 PM
For more ideas about how great our system is, take a look at:
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on May 20, 2007 at 9:53 PM
bah, that didn’t work…
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/public/wt_public_mn.html#
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on May 20, 2007 at 9:53 PM
Given the lack of readily accessible healthcare, it’s certainly possible that Canadians make more of an effort to take care of themselves than Americans – fewer supersized combos from McD’s, etc. When my insurance deductible went way up so that I’m basically paying cash for everything except a catastrophic illness or a surgery, all of a sudden I got real responsible about being healthy. Just sayin’…
Laura on May 20, 2007 at 9:55 PM
” … where restoring a severed finger could cost an American $60,000 compared to nothing at all for a Canadian.”
I don’t know how the Canucks do it, but if it costs nothing, then why don’t they just take care of all the medical needs of Americans, too. It’ll still cost nothing, right?
BTW, that’s not Moore parrying with more questionable claims, that’s responding incoherently and Moore might want to see a doctor for that.
Dusty on May 20, 2007 at 10:02 PM
Whats new here?
lsutiger on May 20, 2007 at 10:11 PM
Um, what???
Is he saying that the scarcity and distribution of health care is good when people have to wait in lines, which really means, take a number, go home, we’ll call ya…maybe he is saying that demand is really, really high and people would get treatment there where otherwise, a comparable American wouldn’t…
The audience for his garbage must be some seriously stupid people, or college English and Journalism majors, take your pick.
I seem to recall Moore making stupid statements that required the true meaning be extracted with lots of questions when he was out and about with his last crappy movie.
Hey Mike, the food in the US must be better right? I mean, you must eat like a wealthy boorish slob American just by the looks of ya.
benrand on May 20, 2007 at 10:15 PM
Hey! English major here.
Of course, I escaped with my degree nearly 30 years ago, back before there was a lot of intense politicization in the humanities. Back in the day before widespread DECONSTRUCTION.
Back when it was actually kinda fun to be a scholar. When you were always good for a literary anecdote at a party.
Not that we were ever invited to many in the first place. . .
Gottafang on May 20, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Michael Moore is allergic to facts.
infidel4life on May 20, 2007 at 10:26 PM
This is just the beginning of a blog-wide fisking of Moore’s latest mockumentary. I don’t imagine this movie will do as well as his last crock of sh*t. Health care isn’t as sexy as 9/11 and there are no emotions of an election year to draw upon. Mikey may try to pull a few stunts to attract attention and sell some tickets.
Mallard T. Drake on May 20, 2007 at 10:27 PM
Being a Canadian, I can safely say with confidence that our health care sucks elephant crap.
MarkyX on May 20, 2007 at 10:29 PM
I got yer finger right here sourpuss!
sonnyspats1 on May 20, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Is it a bad thing that I can no longer think “severed finger” without craving some Wendy’s chili?
Nonfactor on May 20, 2007 at 10:41 PM
“Canada’s government funded medicare system…”
Where did Canada’s government get all that money?
Michael Moore is a cherrypicker extraordinaire.
(And has gorged down a few bushels himself.)
profitsbeard on May 20, 2007 at 10:54 PM
The US has an unusually high infant mortality rate for an industrialized nation as well as one of the highest murder rates of any 1st world country. This is playing a role in “life expectancy.”
For those who reach age 65 — when health care quality really begins to matter — Canada has only marginally higher life expectancy (about 6-8 months).
Moore is blaming the US health care industry for problems which have more to do with broken urban culture (gangs, drugs, teen pregnancy, fatherless households, high unemployment, etc). These are all problems where, it seems to me, liberals like Mike Moore have done more harm than good.
One or two of those missing years of life expectancy were stolen by the sexual revolution, the Great Society, and other liberal initiatives which Mike Moore no doubt supports.
In case Joe Rago is reading, we call that irony.
John on May 20, 2007 at 10:58 PM
O Nonfactor, LOL. I am not worthy
RushBaby on May 20, 2007 at 11:07 PM
Is it because U.S. statistics are skewed by the frequent premature demise of moonbat propaganda film makers that fall over dead prematurely as the results of telling too many lies and eating too many twinkies?
(Oh please God.)
CyberCipher on May 20, 2007 at 11:07 PM
Doctors, nurses, lab techs and other staff work for free in Canada, utilities appear out of nowhere and medical supplies materialize in ORs as if by magic?
Dang, I want to go see that in action! Well, I would if it wasn’t for the fact that LSD in doses like the ones he must have been taking would most likely kill me.
Misha I on May 20, 2007 at 11:15 PM
Questioning the great Director(Oscar Nominations Be Upon Him) again, does this place’s blasphemy know any bounds…
elgeneralisimo on May 20, 2007 at 11:16 PM
You know? I purposefully got a job that has good health coverage. Every month I pay into a trust so I can have health insurance after I retire. Okay, yeah, I am all edumacated and stuff, so perhaps it’s easier for me than it is for the peons?
Not necessarily. While they were lollygagging through junior college my two youngest kids worked for the local school district as instructional assistants for special ed. They worked more than 5 hours a day, made about $14 an hour and got full bennies. If they hadn’t quit to go off to university, they’d been eligible for the lifetime health insurance too, assuming that they had 10 years in and retired out of the district.
Paying for medical coverage is up to the individual. If you chose to take a job that covers it, great! That’s what I did. But if you want to just pay as you go, that’s okay too. Either way the government shouldn’t have to do it.
Bob's Kid on May 20, 2007 at 11:16 PM
ok just read moorewatch
CrimsonFisted on May 20, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Seixon…
Do you really take anything that is on that craphole site wikipedia as the absolute fat? I never ever trust anything I read there and neither should anyone else who really wants the truth.
NeverSubmit on May 20, 2007 at 11:22 PM
Is it a bad thing that I can no longer think “severed finger” without craving some Wendy’s chili?
Nonfactor on May 20, 2007 at 10:41 PM
sonnyspats1 on May 20, 2007 at 11:24 PM
Oooh, oooh, did Moore compare the wages of Canadian health care workers with the wages of American health care workers? I bet he did.
NeverSubmit,
Seriously, why doubt life expectancy data at Wikipedia? Stop being like a Truther or something. Canada’s population is far lesser than that of the USA, with a completely different set of living standards, with a completely different culture, bla bla, there’s no reason to be in denial about Canadians living 2 years longer on average than Americans. With all the fatty fat fats roaming the US with their heart disease and all the ghettos with their 50 Cents running around dealing drugs and shooting each other, I’d say it’s a marvel that the gap is only 2 years between the US and Canada.
Health care in the US is ludicrous, $60,000 for reattaching a finger??? We can do better than that folks, that’s a damn fact and you all know it. I wish someone other than Moore made a movie like this, because then it might actually get people to figure out that we need to do something about health care. But since it is Moore, it’s going to be full of BS, half-truths, and each side of the political aisle will man their battle stations and nothing will come of it.
I went to the doctor on Tuesday, acute upper respiratory infection. I paid a $30 co-pay for the consultation, then got a prescription for penicillin that cost me about $20. Granted, I pay 36% income tax, and 25% sales tax. What would be the case in the US?
Seixon on May 20, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Should have perhaps made it clear that I currently live in Norway…. :)
Seixon on May 20, 2007 at 11:35 PM
Granted, I pay 36% income tax, and 25% sales tax. What would be the case in the US?
Seixon on May 20, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Penicillin is about 9 dollars US outright wo co-pay. Sales tax here in Florida is 7%. my insurance is 200. per month with 30. co-pay.and income tax is in the 25% range. The health care is the best in the world.
sonnyspats1 on May 20, 2007 at 11:47 PM
I guy in his condition talking about healthcare? What’s that saying again; something about not going to a bald barber.
- The Cat
MirCat on May 20, 2007 at 11:50 PM
sonnyspats1,
OK, so you pay $200 per month for insurance, and about the same price as I do for the co-pay. So for 11% more income tax, and 18% more sales tax, I get your $200/month insurance for free. Of course, those taxes I pay go to pay for more services and such than American taxes do.
I stayed in the hospital for a week once here in Norway. Didn’t pay a dime. Of course, the hospital room wasn’t all that fancy (I was happy to have a small TV to watch for a few days), the care was kind of shabby, and they moved me to a room with old people the last day, but for $0 I’m not going to complain.
I think many Americans would kill to have a free week in a shabby hospital room.
Seixon on May 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM
moore is going to find out how strong the medical establishment is. If he thinks this one will do better than the last without some real exposure to how much of a liar he is, he’s mistaken.
As for canadians…I lived up near the border on the USA side and it was damn hard to get a doc or dentist’s appointment. When I inquired WHY at quite a number of places, they all said basically the same thing….lots of canadians.
This was fact as I experienced it….say what you will about canada’s *healthcare* system.
Highrise on May 21, 2007 at 12:15 AM
If you want something screwed up just have the government run it. (BTW I work for the government.)
Mojave Mark on May 21, 2007 at 12:21 AM
He’s already started pulling his stunts. He’s in trouble with the U.S. Treasury Dept. for his trip to Cuba (and he stashed his movie outside the U.S. fearing repercussion); he took some 9/11 ground zero ailing workers to Cuba for medical treatment; and he stirred up a fight with Fred!, asking him for a one-on-one debate.
As for the “free Canadian health care”, how much do Canadians pay in taxes? Let’s clear this whole “free” thing now.
Rick on May 21, 2007 at 12:26 AM
Uh oh, big brother is here watching.
Rick on May 21, 2007 at 12:34 AM
Seixon wrote, “So for 11% more income tax, and 18% more sales tax, I get your $200/month insurance for free.”
If you’re paying more taxes for it, IT’S NOT FREE. Honestly, if you can’t grasp that, there’s not much point in listening to you.
I’d ask how much the average Norwegian pays in income and sales taxes and how much of that goes toward medical insurance, but I’m not confident of the accuracy of the source of the figures you’d give me.
JimC on May 21, 2007 at 12:50 AM
Is the photo of Moore trying to spell L-I-A-R?
And I’m someone who thinks that if we sealed the borders and fined employers, etc. who aid the millions of illegals who have invaded America, we could then afford health coverage for all legal Americans from the billions saved which are now squandered on the scofflaw thieves and lawbreaking infil-traitors mooching on our system.
A cvilized country should provide education and health care.
(You want stupid sick people around you?)
But only for its own citizens.
(And no free health care for prisoners until after all non-cc\riminals have it, first. (To turn one Moore-ism on its head- about the Gitmo prisoners getting better free health care than 9/11 emergency worker. I agree. They should get nothing but free lead injections.)
profitsbeard on May 21, 2007 at 12:53 AM
This whole business of him stashing a copy in a neutral country, so “Bushitler” can’t burn it, is so ridiculous.
It reminds me of this famous quote from Golda Meir. She told some guy, “Oh stop acting so humble; you’re not that important!”
smellthecoffee on May 21, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Seixon,
You pay roughly 15% more in taxes (averaging income and sales) in order to avoid $200/month for medical insurance and you’re wondering if that’s a good deal? Well, if you make more than $1350/month it’s a bad deal.
Also, you paid that extra in taxes every year of your life — even when you didn’t need the medical care. That’s called a subsidy. I am young and relatively fit, if overweight, and am more than happy to go without insurance over the short run. I’d just as soon not subsidize those who actually need the care as I assume they’d rather not subsidize me.
I wonder if Bill Gates or Warren Buffett has health insurance…
birkel on May 21, 2007 at 1:07 AM
The smart and sane Americans (many, contrary to what the snooty people around the world and some here believe) know that nothing is free. The rest is just soc**list babble.
I work in the U.S. hospital system and will not comment on the Canadian or other systems, lest I write you a novel – not the time, the place, nor the forum.
The American system is not perfect, and would not be designed like this, given a completely blank platform to start from scratch. But all others suck comparably from a medical, technological and customer service standpoint. Yes, stupid things and mistakes happen in all systems, but I assure you that Russia and Canada have reused catheters, from one patient to another, after washing them off with distilled water, and the U.S. hasn’t and will not. In Europe after a certain age, not even the discussion of whether or not the elderly person should be considered for stents, takes place because “they’ve lived long enough and the ‘free’ healthcare can’t pay for that”.
I know the Canadian system inside and out (family member was terminally ill there for many years), and am glad it is over there.
Needless to repeat my com**nist experiences, which I shared before.
Our system needs adjustments for sure, from the perspectives of the payers, providers, employers, insured, systems, IT, etc. – but it doesn’t need to immitate any other in the world, as they are all inferior for the patients.
Entelechy on May 21, 2007 at 1:09 AM
We take our health care VERY seriously here in the US. Our health care cost more because we demand and get more. The government is the purveyor of shabby care and we as citizens know that. I am sorry you were uninformed about the standard of care you would be receiving under your ‘free’ system. I think many Americans would kill to have a free week in a shabby hospital room.
Seixon on May 21, 2007 at 12:11 AM
sonnyspats1 on May 21, 2007 at 1:11 AM
Sexion is this a free shabby room ‘to die for’?
sonnyspats1 on May 21, 2007 at 1:16 AM
For dolts that think that gov’t healthcare is just dandy:
http://www.thestar.com/artsentertainment/article/215801
Decent article dealing with moore and what canada thinks lol. They even admit he tells lies.
Highrise on May 21, 2007 at 2:40 AM
The only time I’ve been to a doctor in the last seven years was my retirement physical from the Navy. Same goes for my wife and kids, other than standard exams for college/sports, no doctor visits. As a veteran, I can get a (very) few things without cost, but I still find it far more satisfying (and less expensive) to just stay healthy.
“Free” anything provided by a government is a baldfaced lie. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Those who pay the most in taxes ALWAYS receive the least in benefits, that’s just what social*sm is all about. It isn’t fair, and it doesn’t work properly. Government has no business being involved in the health care industry, all they will do is drive it further into the swamp.
Freelancer on May 21, 2007 at 3:15 AM
Isn’t the real issue that the American system is not only broken, but that it only works for those that can afford it? All who work cannot afford in many cases even the most basic of health care for themselves, let alone a family.
Thanks in large part to the litigiousness of our society, the insurance industry, and the innate greed of many administrators in the medical profession, our rates are the highest in the world. This would be great if the care was also the best.
There are many horror stories about our system as there are about those of other countries.
I do not always agree with Moore – however, he is good at generating discussion, and that has value in itself if we can bring about positive change instead of endless finger waggling and blaming.
Perhaps the real issue should be identifying and then figuring out how to fix our problems so that we truly have the best health care in the world.
We are capable of doing it, but does the industry really want to?
I’m pretty sure that those of us who are consumers want positive change.
Emmett J. on May 21, 2007 at 3:59 AM
To clarify John’s point, which Moore uses against the US system, you have to take into account that 12.5% of US births in 2005 were preterm, thanks to high numbers of IVF multiples and exacerbated by illegal – er, sorry, undocumented residents who don’t show up for prenatal care. In some countries, births before 28 weeks or weighing less than 1 pound are considered miscarriages or stillbirths and don’t figure into infant mortality, which is deaths per live births. Until the 90′s, a baby had to live at least 7 days in Russia to be considered a “live birth.” “Stillbirth” still has a rather flexible definition in some areas where male children are highly preferred. So take the US’s “high infant mortality rate” with a grain of salt.
Quisp on May 21, 2007 at 7:03 AM
Seixon wrote, “So for 11% more income tax, and 18% more sales tax, I get your $200/month insurance for free.”
If you’re making more than $22k a year, the 11% income tax will cost you more than $200/month. What’s the median income in Norway.
dorkafork on May 21, 2007 at 7:31 AM
We can have that now, actually. Back when I was widowed, pregnant, and applying but not yet approved for welfare/Medicaid, I needed to use the local charity hospital. I was in the hospital for four days because of complications – and it was entirely free. Once I was approved for welfare and Medicaid, I could go to a much nicer hospital, still with no bill. And since I had my daughter and got a job with insurance, I’ve enjoyed even better healthcare – available pretty much instantly, no need to wait in line.
Our absolute minimum standard of care seems to be equal to what you routinely get. Still think your system is better?
Laura on May 21, 2007 at 8:59 AM
Seixon,
Considering that according to the wait time link provided above, a Breast Cancer surgery in Toronto Central would have you waiting 84 days…you may not even be alive to get that free week in a shabby hospital room.
serpentineshel on May 21, 2007 at 9:32 AM
Excellence point Laura.
Maxx on May 21, 2007 at 9:48 AM
If something is “free” just because I don’t send a check directly to the supplier, then I enjoy the free protection of the US armed forces, free public schools, free police and fire services, free garbage pick-up and free roads.
eagles5 on May 21, 2007 at 10:51 AM
Stunning!!!
Planet Boulder on May 21, 2007 at 11:58 AM
A few years ago, I had to take my wife to the emergency room, where they took her straight into emergency surgery. She stayed in the hospital a week, most of that in the Intensive Care Unit.
Fortunately she had health insurance through her employer, but even then we couldn’t afford to write a check to cover the deductible and co-pay. We talked to the relevant persons in the hospital’s billing department, and spent the next 2 years paying them $100 a month-no interest, no penalties.
I have no problem paying for the medical care I get. Health care workers earn their pay, and few (if any) things are worth more than what they provide us.
How do socialized systems pay their workers? Do they just tell them “you will work these hours, and you will get this pay, no negotiations, and you aren’t allowed to work on your own in the private market”? If that is the case, how is it different from slavery?
Lancer on May 21, 2007 at 1:07 PM
Thank you for pointing this out. Our country is being “penalized” for trying to save nearly hopeless babies. Some live and some do not. In most other countries, those babies are just considered completely hopeless and no efforts are made to save them – and they are never counted in the infant mortality rate.
The infant mortality ratings are hardly apples to apples.
Candy Slice on May 21, 2007 at 1:43 PM
Yep the Canadian system is so great that an online friend of mine has been waiting since December for her 4 year old son to see a neurologist for marked weakness on the left side of his body. Joy of joys, the appointment is in June. They are, however, still on the wait list for an MRI, which cannot officially be scheduled until after the Neurologist visit (the neurologist has cheated and placed them on the list without seeing them?) It’s a possible 6 months further for that appointment.
They are looking into a Shriners’ Hospital in Washington state I believe.
Great system you got there. It’s an even worse case of the haves and have nots.
Candy Slice on May 21, 2007 at 1:47 PM
I would like a better health care system here. At least better for lower middle class. I Like the Health Care Flexible Spending Account. I use it but I don’t like the fact that if I don’t use it in one year I loose the money I held back pretax. I would like to have a pretax savings account I can use for any medical expense for anyone for any length of time. If you don’t use it for medical and need the money you pay tax on it! I’ve seen the Gap Plans work good for pregnant women. Need more creative capitalistic ideas.
Drtuddle on May 21, 2007 at 4:44 PM
Here’s a shocker I just stumbled across – a professor (who is a Democrat) at a major research university just posted a very interesting article. Turns out that the vast majority of people who lack “regular medical care” that this universal health care coverage is intended to help, do not lack health care because of financial reasons. In fact, 66% of them don’t have it because they are “seldom or never sick.” Only 10% reported not having health care because they can’t afford it. (And why don’t those people qualify for Medicaid?)
He writes, “And that’s the main point I want to make today. You might think that providing universal health care coverage is going to solve a big health care problem in America. If that’s what you think, I’m guessing that you have not delved into the matter in any great detail. I am only just beginning my own inquiry, and I’ve immediately stumbled on two issues that make this a hard problem, not evil corporate Republicans vs. decent and caring Democrats. My first eye-opening discovery was that access to new, life-saving (and extremely expensive) cancer drugs is much faster in America than anywhere else in the world. It might make sense to deny Americans access to these life saving drugs and to use the money saved to provide health insurance to the poor, but the point is that there are tradeoffs to be made. Once you come to appreciate that fact, the needle on your outrage detector will come down off its maximum value. I read somewhere that Michael Moore thinks that France has the best health care system in the world. Maybe, but I don’t think he’d hold that view if he lived in France and had cancer (and was told that they pay for their number-one system by not paying for the extremely expensive drugs that could save his life).
My second surprise was that the lack of access to regular health care in America was largely due to factors unrelated to health care coverage, which means that providing universal coverage won’t address that issue in any way.”
Laura on May 21, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Restoring a severed finger doesn’t cost $60,000 in the United States. I work in a hospital, and I am familiar with surgeries and with billing. And that number is simply made up.
Like Al Gore’s absurd 20 foot sea level claim. Lefties just swallow whole anything they are told that reinforces their prejudice.
Martin on May 21, 2007 at 7:54 PM
Candy Slice: although I don’t have the facts right now, someone at UT Medical Branch at Galveston did a study of infant mortality without the preemies and the low birth weight babies and we rank like any other industralized nation, around 4 per 1000
Ropera on May 21, 2007 at 9:29 PM