Amnesty fallout: A permanent Democratic majority? Update: “Dangerous loopholes” in the bill? Update: “White flag,” says Border Patrol union
posted at 10:10 am on May 18, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Kaus keeps touting “leftist” objections that might derail the amnesty, “e.g., that the bill, by encouraging another flood of illegals, will drive down the wages of unskilled Americans.” Really? Which “leftists” are touting this except for centrists like himself and Ben Nelson, whom the left regularly deride as Republicans in Democrats’ clothing? Suppressed wages for unskilled workers might have bothered them 50 years ago, but it doesn’t anymore. Not only because multiculturalism has supplanted labor as a core leftist principle, but because they’re about to climb on board a political gravy train here and they damned well know it.
First and foremost, most Hispanics are Democrats. True, George W. Bush tied a record for winning Hispanics in the 37-40 percent range. (Don’t believe the nonsense that he got 44 percent of Hispanics. Those were the same exit polls that gave us “President Kerry.” The figures were revised down in 2005.) W received about the same level of Hispanic support as Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan did in their re-elections. But even if we are generous and grant that he got the 44 percent the Republican National Committee is claiming, that means a solid majority of Hispanics still voted for a lackluster Democrat against an incumbent Republican president who bent over backwards to court them in a time of war and low unemployment…
When did white conservative intellectuals become such experts on Latin culture? Don’t they know that every Spanish-speaking country in the world has a strong labor party abounding in machine politics? (Of course, the same neocons so enthusiastic about immigration reform are also the geniuses who gave us the “cakewalk” in Iraq!) Mexicans in Chicago are hooked into the Daley Machine, and it’s only a matter of time before the newly replenished barrios of the cities of the southwest send forth their own versions of Richard Daley (or “Ricardo Diaz” perhaps?). The past is prologue, so more immigrants probably means more future Democrats. Happy Days are here again!
Note what he says about labor. If the left is looking to soothe its conscience, they can justify this to themselves as a compromise by which they’ve hurt unskilled Americans now to help them later. A huge new population of legalized unskilled workers means not only new Democratic voters but unionization, possibly on a grand enough scale to bring about a reawakening of the labor movement. If so, that’ll encompass unskilled Americans too. Granted, it’ll be a cold comfort to those Americans that the jobs they would have gotten if not for the immigrant labor glut now pay a lot more than they did before, but like I say, we’re talking rationalizations here. As for the percentage of the Latino vote Dems can expect to grab in the future, the NRO piece lowballs it:
[A] reform package may be a feather in W’s cap, but that’s all. Sure President Bush will get credit from Hispanics for helping them, but he’s not eligible to run for another term. In all likelihood, he’ll get some marginal kudos while editorialists will beat the brains out of the “racist, nativist Republicans” who always screw over minorities. The likely end result of this will be a nasty fight in the Republican primaries of 2008, an alienated business community, very few Hispanic Republicans, more Democrats, and a depressed GOP base. The textbook definition of a disaster is getting the worst of all worlds.
Indeed, and it won’t just be editorialists. The reason the nutroots has started to reframe racial politics as Republicans versus “brown people” (which Ace, for one, writes about regularly) instead of relying on the traditional Republicans-versus-blacks paradigm is because (a) they’ve already got 90+% of the black vote, so returns are diminishing, and (b) with immigration front and center after 9/11, there’s a whole new minority group affected by key policies that they can demagogue the hell out of for votes. Hence the new, expansive “brown person” formulation, which pits most racial minorities against conservatives in one fell swoop by suggesting that “brownness” itself is somehow frightening or intolerable to us and thus the real cause of all this hand-wringing over open borders. That term of art hasn’t trickled up to the party establishment yet, so far as I know, but it surely will have by the time illegals are legalized and begin to unionize and register in numbers. If the rhetoric is deployed skillfully enough (and the left is very, very good at this sort of thing), it could raise what they’d doubtless call “brown consciousness” to the point where it’s worth another 10-20% of the already large and growing Latino vote.
So this is a big Democratic win, all of which makes Democratic support for the bill understandable and Republican support for it completely baffling, except as a weak hedge against future racial demagoguery by the left (“hey, we supported the amnesty too! we love ‘brown people!’”). And the beauty of it all is that the more control Democrats have over the government, the more likely it is that the current weak enforcement provisions will be rolled back and future amnesties will be granted. With medical advances being what they are, Teddy might be there to announce the next one too — which would make it the fourth amnesty he’s pronounced as the solution to the nation’s immigration problems.
Pelosi’s got a problem with her Blue Dogs, whose opposition to the bill given what it does for their party is mystifying unless they’re toeing the Kaus line about not throwing unskilled Americans under the bus. Either way, she claims that unless Bush can deliver 70 Republican votes in the House, she won’t even send the bill to the floor. In the meantime, Kaus has suggestions for what Republican opponents of the bill can do to stir up opposition on the left:
Perhaps House Democrats could be subtly encouraged to hold a large hearing, attended by activists from the undocumented community, at which spokespeople loudly demanded not just instant legalization but free instant legalization! (Speaker suggestion: Nativo Lopez.) They’ll be making these demands soon enough. Why not now? … They might also emphasize that they do not think they are immigrants at all–this is their homeland! We stole it from them. … Not only would these hearings mobilize Latino opposition to the compromise, they might also turn off the rest of the country (much as some famous hearings featuring George Wiley’s welfare rights activists soured the country on the guaranteed income). …
The takeaway there being, “They’ll be making these demands soon enough.” Oh, and as far as Kaus can tell, our suspicions yesterday were correct: there doesn’t seem to be any requirement that the enforcement provisions in the bill actually produce any enforcement, merely that certain resources be allocated to the task. Which is exactly what’s happened to the border fence, isn’t it?
There may be updates here later. Depends on how much fire and brimstone there is on the wires.
Update: Then again, illegals already vote in some cities. What’s the big deal?
Update: Here’s the White House fact sheet. Clearly they’re going to grant amnesty before the fence — even the partial fence they have in mind — is finished, otherwise it wouldn’t be keyed to miles. And yeah, Kaus is absolutely right: these aren’t results benchmarks (except for the fence, arguably), they’re resource benchmarks. To borrow an analogy he used in his own post, it’d be like pronouncing the surge a success based on the fact that all new forces have now been deployed.
Border Security And Worksite Enforcement Benchmarks Must Be Met Before A Temporary Worker Program Is Implemented. These benchmarks include:
Miles of fence constructed.
Number of Border Patrol Agents hired.
“Catch and Return” continues at the border.
Employment Eligibility Verification System ready to process all new hires.
The amnesty provisions:
Illegal Immigrants Who Come Out Of The Shadows Will Be Given Probationary Status. To maintain their probationary status, they must pass a background check, remain employed, and maintain a clean criminal record.
Illegal Immigrants Who Fulfill Their Probationary Requirements Can Apply For A Z Card, Which Will Enable Them To Live, Work, And Travel Freely. Z card holders will be required to pay a $1,000 fine, meet accelerated English and civics requirements, remain employed, and renew their visa every four years.
Z Card Holders Will Have An Opportunity To Apply For A Green Card, But Only After:
Paying an additional $4,000 fine,
Applying at the back of the line and waiting until the current backlog is cleared,
Returning to their home country to file their green card application, and
Demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.
So Lowry was wrong, I guess: they’re not legal as soon as the bill is signed, they’re legal once they “come out of the shadows” and claim their probationary status, which presumably means registration of some kind. My question, given the various hoops illegals are expected to jump through here, is how much incentive there is for any of them to actually comply with the system instead of just staying outside out and what the plan is to deal with those who don’t. Because I’ve got to tell you: given the touchback requirement and the merit-based “points system,” I don’t see a lot of unskilled illegals taking their chances by leaving the country with no reason to think they’ll be allowed back in. In which case — what do we do? Deport them? I thought our poor deportation capacity is what necessitated this deal in the first place.
Update: Wouldn’t you know it, pro-illegal groups are greeting the bill with a “warm, if qualified, embrace.” Meanwhile, DHS honcho Mike Chertoff gushes about his new schoolboy crush, Ted Kennedy: “He’s awesome!”
Update: AP has a projected timeline of the legislative process. The Senate will vote by Memorial Day but Bush isn’t expecting to sign it — assuming the bill survives — until August.
Update: There’s still no actual bill yet, by the way.
Update: Kate O’Beirne says there is indeed an actual bill (although it’s in flux) and that the Heritage Foundation has a copy of the latest version. Among the pearls:
They point out that once the bill is signed its language appears to create a “cease and desist” order on law enforcement given what looks like a prima facie assumption that any illegal alien is eligible for amnesty and can therefore be given preliminary legal status. Under the “Treatment of Application” section, once an application for the new “Z” visa has been filed, it appears that the government has only “one business day” to identity a disqualifying factor or the visa must be issued. And lots of provisions are apparently able to be waived by Cabinet secretaries so there’s plenty of discretion for the next Clinton administration.
Update: The president of the National Border Patrol Council lowers the boom:
“Every person who has ever risked their life securing our borders is extremely disheartened to see some of our elected representatives once again waving the white flag on the issues of illegal immigration and border security,” National Border Patrol Council President T.J. Bonner said…
“Rather than meaningless triggers of additional personnel and barriers outlined in the compromise, Americans must insist that border security be measured in absolute terms,” Mr. Bonner said. “Sadly, the plan that the Senate is proposing falls woefully short by that yardstick and needlessly jeopardizes the security of this nation.”
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Got the exact same letter, sans Mrs. XXXX part.
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 4:53 PM
Wait, what? You’re serious? You are seriously gonna equate people who want to kick people who don’t want amnesty with Southern Slaveholders? GTFO! Tell you what, numbskull, answer this, who represents that thinking more, the people who are paying them $3 an hour for heavy farmwork or in a factory with poor ventilation, or people who want the law enforced and equal treatment for all citizens of the country.
That oughta count as a Godwin equivalent on your half.
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 4:57 PM
I bleeped out my name. I thought of XXX, but that give ya’ll the wrong impression :) so I added an extra X. he he he.
I wonder what it takes to get a personalized letter…. hmmmm……
pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 4:57 PM
OOOH why would Bush do this???? Perplexed ?? Don’t be ..I will be the Pat Buchanon -(Who was right all along) The floodgates open just as Bush pulls 150 Border security troops off the border to go to Iraq…there go the National Guard….The remaining border agents afraid to go to work for fear they will be shot at and then be sent to prison for avoiding that bullet. The Mexicans want to send trucks to USA…they are building ports to take the place of American ports….Hell North American Union by default,……How STUPID can you people be?…keep insulting
Gregor and ignoring the obvious…….The Fence WILL NEVER, EVER BE BUILT…SPANISH will be the second language of the country and your country is history!
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 4:58 PM
I don’t perceive him as being resigned to amnesty, as in, the writing is on the wall, let me just try to make the best of it for the American people. On the contrary, he has been a leader in the effort.
Wise advice, natesnake. But if this bill passes, what possible say are we going to have in the policy - micro or macro?
But this bill has not passed yet, and right now we have a chance to fight the “inevitability” and try to influence our politicians not to pass it.
That being said, I am looking forward to your thoughts on how to make amnesty palatable. I really mean that.
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 4:58 PM
Assuming that an anti-amnesty Republican is voted president, that is a correct statement. As it stands, Dems hold the House, the Senate, and are currently polling better for the 2008 presidency.
I have no problem seeing if 2008 changes the tables (or keeps status quo) and a Republican remains president. I’m looking at the current 40% chance that will happen. We either take our calculated losses now and try to gain some political capitol, or let it all ride in 2008 and stand to lose everything.
I hate to eat and run. I’ve enjoyed the debate, but it’s almost 5:00 and I’ve got a large glass of bourbon waiting for me.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 4:59 PM
Ahhhh. It’s 5:00 somewhere, isn’t it…..
Enjoy your bourbon. Me? I’ll take a margarita, made with good ‘ole Mexican tequila.
Bottoms up.
pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 5:03 PM
200!
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 5:03 PM
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. If we don’t fight, if we roll (bend?) over and just accept it, not only will we take losses now, but we will take even greater losses in 2008 and beyond - which was the whole point of AllahPundit’s post in the first place. Fighting back now is more imperative than ever.
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 5:04 PM
Probably a big donation …. ugh.
:))
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 5:06 PM
See as a start:
RushBaby, I’ll have to take you up on that another day. Time is fleeting, and Blanton is calling my name….
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 5:06 PM
Oh, and one other thing nate - in the immortal words of John Blutarsky, aka Bluto, nothing is over until we say it’s over. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!!
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 5:09 PM
well, that ain’t happenin’. I will donate my money elsewhere, thank you very much!!!
pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 5:09 PM
Nice to pick on white males when Mexican society is extremely color-stratified. All the focus is on the Mexicans and Central Americans, the Koreans, the Chinese, the Irish, the Dutch, the Indians (SE Asians) etc etc etc. America is a nation of immigrants, from every nation. Why is the coverage ALL Mexico?
Years in Africa and can count on ONE HAND the number of Latinos encountered over there in developmental work. Brazilians - the Portuguese-speakers have a presence, but not the Spanish-speakers. Mexico has a GDP per capita of about $6,000 a year. Guinea in West Africa has a GDP per cap of less than $500 a year.
How about Mexicans going around and helping the world with all that oil wealth?
How DARE you people, you who’ve disparaged Americans for being racists and uncaring when Americans give more than ANYONE on the planet in money, time and personal commitment (by leaving the comforts of home and spending years in remote places) to help the world’s poor. Where is Mexico in all this? It’s GDP surpasses every country in Sub-Saharan Africa, wildly surpasses India.
Why are they whining about America? They have the money and natural resources in the country of Mexico to more than adequately, in fact magnificently provide for their entire population. Their lousy management of their own wealth is not America’s fault.
naliaka on May 18, 2007 at 5:10 PM
From that letter -
Ms. Hutchinson should ask France and Germany how well those guest worker programs are working out for them.
Laura on May 18, 2007 at 5:10 PM
Bradky
Assuming the article you linked is 100% correct, its assertion is that by the THIRD generation they have moved into speaking English.
Now, even if we make the insane assumption that we can manage to 100% secure the border and that no more first generation spanish speakers enter the country either legally or illegally, lets look at just what numbers even that article will result in.
We are going to give amnesty to 12-15 million illegal first generation spanish speakers. This is on top of the legal / semi-legal first generation spanish speakers who are also already here.
Their fertility rate is something like 4-5 kids per female, so those 12-15 million will produce at least 18-20 million second generation spanish speakers, for a total of 30 - 35 million first and second generation spanish speakers. Those will in turn produce 28 - 32 million third generation offspring, 96% of whom will prefer English, the remaining 4% presumably remaining spanish speakers (so another million plus will retain spanish).
Start adding it up, and you are going to find that in excess of 10% of the American population is going to be spanish primary speakers. So, yes governments at all levels will have to provide english/spanish documents, interpretors, signs, etc, etc, etc. The cost to all of us in tax money is staggering (heck in many areas it nearly doubles the costs just to the criminal justice system to make sure that spanish speakers maintain all their rights, have complete understanding of the process, etc)
So, that article doesn’t really support the great melting pot idea, does it? Nor does it argue against making english the official language of the U.S., something that really needs to be done now.
Maybe some gutsy politician will offer that as an amendment to this bill. Passing the bill results in english becoming the official language of the U.S. and ALL governments will now conduct business solely in english.
Fatal on May 18, 2007 at 5:12 PM
We could always send her some Bush pesos ….
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 5:13 PM
If Bush signs the bill I offer the following scenario:
1. The destruction of the Republican party.
2. There will never be another Republican president.
3. America will have a permanent one party system.
4. Congress will change from white to brown.
5. All future presidents will be Hispanic.
6. The Southern border will be eliminated.
7. America and Mexico will merge into one nation.
8. The white population will leave the country.
Sound implausible? Try this.
1. The Republican base, feeling betrayed, will no longer vote.
2. In 20 years the Hispanic population will grow from 13 million to 40 million becoming the largest voting block in the country.
3. There will be permanent unrest between blacks and Hispanics.
pocomoco on May 18, 2007 at 5:17 PM
Considering that there is a several year process in becoming a citizen I would disagree with your conclusions. As I have mentioned numerous times I don’t support having a second language for public education (except for foreign language credit) in the courts or in the federal/state governments.
We are going to penalize people for having more kids than others on average. This will sound terribly cynical but have you ever stopped to think that means our country continues to thrive as opposed to what is happening in Japan and Europe?
The article does show that there are some unfair and inaccurate biases about Hispanic immigrants that don’t promote healthy debate or effective solutions to the problem of illegal immigration.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Nothing_is_over.wav
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 5:22 PM
Noah Webster started his career by determining that America needed a standard langauage, a standard dictionary AND a standard education program that would give all new immigrants a basic, shared American background. He created the Blue Back Speller, plus a curriculum set for each grade - affordable and widely distributed across the country.
The Liberal Left has spent the last thirty years undoing all that work - eliminating that foundation that would help make a new immigrant, no matter from where, an American.
It’s a lot harder to assimulate when even the schools have failed their mandate. No English, no history, no respect.
naliaka on May 18, 2007 at 5:25 PM
And another thing, making illegals legal would make everyone unequal. Dred Scott and others were made unequal under the Scott decision, and it was unjust. In America, all citizens are to be equal under the law, Scott and other slaves were denied that right through that decision.
Amnesty would make us all unequal, as the law would no longer be applied equally to all people, so in fact YOU are the one who holds that thought process that lead to Dred Scott by denying the equality of all under the law. YOU FAIL.
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 5:26 PM
Bradky
Where in the heck did you get that from? I didn’t say or imply anything like that. Sheesh!
Maybe I misunderstood your position, but the discussion was about assimilation. Reaganaut posted a belief that the “melting pot” was gone and you linked to the article about language patterns and claimed it “rebuts your assertion very nicely.”
Using the “facts” from that article, I was merely pointing out that, even accepting everything that article says, the results are that 10%+ of our population is going to be primary spanish speakers in the near future.
Having 10%+ of our population primarily speaking a different language would seem to support reaganaut’s claim that the melting pot is gone, it does not nicely rebut it as you claim. And that’s all my post was about.
Fatal on May 18, 2007 at 5:30 PM
Oh, and I did suggest a gutsy politician might add an amendment making english the official language - which would at least allow us to get SOMETHING out of granting yet another amnesty
Fatal on May 18, 2007 at 5:32 PM
In fact, since pedestrian seems to think we no longer need equality or law, I think I might start a crime syndicate, it gives me an excuse to wear flashy pinstripe suits, smoke cigars and drink hooch, and talk like a 30’s gangster, see. After all, what authority would the government have to tell me I can’t be rewarded for breaking the law?
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 5:32 PM
Does anyone else wish they would nuke those two stupid whales in the Sacramamto River?
csdeven on May 18, 2007 at 5:33 PM
Well, it depends on whether they are in there illegally or not.
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 5:36 PM
Waste of a good nuke, plus the Japanese would pay a fortune for that meat. Sell it to Japan, then send the Air Force to strafe the Greenpeace boats that come in to protest the whalers. Win/Win.
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 5:38 PM
I don’t know if anybody has mentioned this above so apologies in advance if so:
This smells like it’s full of unfunded mandates. You know, the things so many Democrat politicians derided in the NCLB legislation. You know, the legislation that Bush hoped would increase the size of the Republican Party by appealing to women.
Oh well.
birkel on May 18, 2007 at 5:38 PM
You guys that assume assimilation are dreaming.
If the invaders are so willing and anxious to learn English then why do we have huge growth of Hispanic Radio and TV stations? Why is making English the official language such a huge debate? Why are there blocks and blocks of Hispanic stores with Spanish signage and information in every major city and even many smaller ones?
Why do we have schools like this popping up around the country?
La Academia Semillas del Pubelo:
We don’t want to drink from a White water fountain, we have our own wells and our natural reservoirs and our way of collecting rain in our aqueducts. We don’t need a White water fountain. So the whole issue of segregation and the whole issue of the Civil Rights Movement is all within the box of White culture and White supremacy. We should not still be fighting for what they have. We are not interested in what they have because we have so much more and because the world is so much larger. And ultimately the White way, the American way, the neo liberal, capitalist way of life will eventually lead to our own destruction.
*Aztlan Academy in Tuscon, Arizona. According to The Race, the school’s success rests on “Aztlan’s ability to integrate a meaningful Chicano Studies program into their lives, language, and academics, as a means of developing their intellects as well as their pride and self-esteem.” The school’s name–a reference to a mythical swath of the vast Southwestern U.S. expanse, which Latino activists claim is their rightful homeland and which they seek to reconquer for Mexico–says it all.
*Mexicayotl Academy in Nogales, Arizona. Who needs the three R’s? At Mexicayotl, it’s all about the three M’s: me, me, me! The school’s program is “structured and developed around the concepts of identity, culture, and language.” Second mission: supporting local ethnic lobbying efforts “to right social injustices by educating the community and helping create social change.” Under “greatest achievements,” the school’s website lists its participation in a “Peace & Dignity Run;” its visit from Rigoberta Menchu (the Marxist academic fraud from Guatemala who lied her way to a Nobel Peace Prize); and its sponsorship of the local annual Día de los Muertos (the Mexican holiday).
*The Dolores Huerta Preparatory High School in Pueblo, Colorado. It’s named after the far-Left Latina labor union activist who recently railed that “Republicans hate Latinos,” praised illegal alien marchers, and screeched that “We didn’t cross the borders, the borders crossed us” in a hate-filled tirade before Arizona students.
*Academia Cesar Chavez Charter School in St. Paul, Minn. Board of Directors member Louis Mendoza, an activist Chicano Studies professor, pushed the school to lobby for the federal DREAM Act (providing in-state tuition discounts to illegal alien students not available to legal non-residents). The school’s website features one flag on its front page: the Mexican flag.
Why do the invaders have prime allegiance to Mexico?
They have no more intention to assimilate then Bin Laden does.
Altura Ct. on May 18, 2007 at 5:38 PM
And you’ll be able to get away with it under the Comprehensive Amnesty for Gangsters Bill that is sure to come up. After all, if other lawbreakers are given amnesty, why shouldn’t you get it too?
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 5:43 PM
I don’t think there has been any point in US history where more than 90% of the population spoke english as their first language. The fact that the article shows that these families put an emphasis on their kids and grandkids learning english is the point.
I still think the melting pot observation is not true. But to be fair there is no real quantifier for what constitutes a melting pot. 99% of the population speak English? This would reflect a much stricter immigration policy more akin to European and Asian countries.
As for the kids comment, okay I’ll accept that wasn’t your meaning. But it should be no surprise that first generation immigrants do have more kids on average. Look at the Cambodians and Laotians who came here in the seventies and eighties. Lots of kids, many who don’t speak the parent’s language and as American as you and I.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 5:44 PM
Pretty soon we’ll be pressing two for English
Hening on May 18, 2007 at 5:46 PM
It looks to me as if we are in dire need of an appropriate sound bite/talking point to remove support for this upcoming bill. Taking BDS into consideration, I offer this …
The Democrat supported, Bush Illegal Alien Amnesty Bill.
DannoJyd on May 18, 2007 at 5:48 PM
I’m coming down with a serious case of BDS.
PRCalDude on May 18, 2007 at 5:52 PM
The loopholes should surprise nobody. These bills are always even worse than they initially let on.
tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 5:56 PM
It’s funny ‘cuz it’s true…
It’s sad ‘cuz it’s true…
omnipotent on May 18, 2007 at 6:02 PM
You nailed it.
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 6:03 PM
I grew up in California in the 60’s and 70s. Central Valley boy… worked the fields driving tractors for a summer job a couple of times… EVERYONE spoke at least some English.
Now, you drive down 99 Highway in California, and half the billboards you see are in Spanish… many of the Radio stations… spanish. No need to assimilate if everyone speaks spanish, and by state law all forms are available in spanish.
My home town, is now primarily Latino… I can remember 2 murders in that town when I was growing up… there were 3 murders withing 1 mile of my Mom’s house there LAST YEAR. 2 of those have gone totaly unpunished.
I remember leaving my bike out as a kid all summer long… 1 year ago I was home and my mountain bike was stolen from my trucks bikerack… lock broken.
Its about culture and respect for the law. You don’t teach respect for the law by giving Amnesty to known lawbreakers.
You don’t encourage assimilation by catering to THEIR langauge and culture.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 6:08 PM
If I could rent a space on hotair I’d pay to flash the ad that says Bradky doesn’t support bilingual efforts for government and educational programs.
That said, the current bill is the only thing that has been offered to stem the flow of illegals and effectively manage those who are already here. The one thing missing is the national ID card which would go a long way to making the bill a really good one.
No one has offered alternative plans that manage the problem. The republicans had 12 of majority status years to craft one and failed to do so. It should not be a surprise that a bill that is not as strong as the base would like is the result.
I understand your points about lawbreakers. But what will work. I didn’t like amnesty for the draft dodgers in the seventies but they got it anyway. Mostly because they were white middle class kids who had financial support from their parents while they stayed in Canada. There were zero penalties for their crime. Two wrongs don’t make a right but it wouldn’t be the first time.
Contrary to popular belief I am fairly open minded. But what is the viable option?
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 6:16 PM
Now you’re catchin’ on!
I am a proud Mafiosi-American and my rights will not be denied! I’ve been opressed long enough!
Say it with me!
WE’LL MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CAN’T REFUSE!
WE’LL MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CAN’T REFUSE!
WE’LL MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CAN’T REFUSE!
WE’LL MAKE YOU AN OFFER YOU CAN’T REFUSE!
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 6:17 PM
repeal or change the Posse Act…
Put the US Army at the border. Use it as a training ground. Makes more sense to station them there than in Colorado, or Germany, or Japan.
National ID card tied to Drivers license, voting (to help with voter fraud), SSN (for ID theft purposes), and status as a citizen or immigrant (Visa)… can be done under both security mandate, enforcing Immigration law, and innerstate commerce… this IS in Congress’s mandate.
Use the National ID to dry up benefits for illegals.
Once done, enforce workplace laws, and penalize employers for hireing illegals, jobs will dry up. Magnet gone.
We already have a Migrant worker program.. if we need more simply up the numbers, and ensure they’re in the system.
To do all this would take IMO 3-5 years, and no more money than we are about to spend on this amnesty program.
There… solution.
Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 6:25 PM
Enforcement first. Talk about amnesties later.
tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 6:40 PM
Can’t wait until this bill passes, so we can see even more of this …
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 6:44 PM
Can we have an amnesty for National Firearms Act of 1934 violators as well?
I wouldn’t mind having a parts kit built machine-gun grandfathered as legal.
Kristopher on May 18, 2007 at 7:00 PM
You obviously haven’t been paying attention if you think nobody has offered alternative plans to manage the problem.
How many times does someone have to say secure the border, enforce workplace rules, and deport those that are arrested for criminal violations? The problem of illegals already in the country is then managed by attrition.
Hell, we don’t even need a bill to do that, all that has to be done is to actually enforce the laws that are already on the books.
Are we to believe that this new 400 (or 700 or 1000) page bill is going to somehow solve or even manage the problem?
Go see this post on Michelle’s site again. Seven amnesties, yet not one has stemmed the tide of new illegals coming in or even come close to manageing the problem. Yet we’re supposed to believe that this time is different???
Sorry, no sale.
All we’ll get out of this bill is the amnesty. The proposed penalties will likely end up being waived because it will be too difficult to administer the program, and a government that has repeatedly failed and reneged on enforcement on previous amnesty bills will do it again. This bill manages the problem the way gasoline puts out a fire.
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 7:04 PM
They already did something similar at the Dell plant in Nashville, TN. And like all of the other cowards of Western civilization, Dell folded like a cheap card table. Expect more of it.
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 7:06 PM
Well the deed is done. I sent my messages to my 2 Senators, Isakson and Chambliss of GA, both of whom set on the committee that crafted this legislation for what it is worth.
LakeRuins on May 18, 2007 at 7:11 PM
The Republicans seem to be recognizing a fait accompli. The old families in the U.S. haven’t been reproducing for about 35 years. Granted, the Americans’ total fertility has crept back up to replacement level recently, but they probably already have Mexican-Americans to thank for that.
Meanwhile, Mexican total fertility has declined in recent decades, too, but it was much higher than the Americans’ in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Even in 2000, Mexican total fertility was 2.75, while the American figure was 2.05.
It seems the die was cast in the 1960s and 1970s, with acceptance of the birth-control pill and abortion into widespread use. Men let women exercise “a woman’s right to choose,” and women’s choices, taken together, hollowed out Europe and the upper two thirds of North America.
Kralizec on May 18, 2007 at 8:09 PM
Kralizec, the HA Voltair, women - can’t live with ‘em, and ya can’t live with ‘em.
After your comment, above, all ills in Europe and here can now be blamed on those creatures. “Womans”, as my Argentinian friend calls them, after he’s lived here for over 35 years.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 8:33 PM
Voltaire wouldn’t be happy with my spelling of his name…
Kralizec, you asked for my thoughts on one of the religion threads, and I answered you, late.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Here’s a summary chart of total fertility rates by country, as of 2000. (2005 numbers are available, but they’re based on projections.)
http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?Country=MX&IndicatorID=138
Here’s an historical summary of total fertility rates for Mexico.
http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?IndicatorID=138&Country=MX
And here’s the historical summary of rates for the United States.
http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?country=US&indicatorid=138
It’s all right, I guess, to blame Congress or the Bush Administration for making the existing problems worse. However, it also appears that one can look between one’s own legs for the solution to the larger problem.
Kralizec on May 18, 2007 at 8:37 PM
As I mentioned previously, illegal immigration helps decrease the fertility rates of non-Hispanic Americans. Illegal immigrants drive down wages while driving up housing costs (not to mention taxes). This makes family formation less affordable.
tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 8:49 PM
Kralizek-NEWS FLASH Americans cannot afford to have a slew of children, they pay taxes out of their pay til May!!!!..
I know I had one child and could barely afford him on my own…My parents had 11 but they weren’t paying for everyone else’s children and their care…get the picture????
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 8:52 PM
Why are we caving to the Mexican Govt? What’s in it for us? They have every thing to gain, we have every thing to lose. Clog that open sewage pipe known as the border, NOW!
Alden Pyle on May 18, 2007 at 8:53 PM
Just watched Geraldo and Oreilly as Oreilly ceded the country over to Geraldos’ Hispanic relatives..made me want to puke……Yep they can take over a country because so called “men” like OReilly don’t even have to be confronted with a military force to hand over his country and his “culture” he cares so much about………
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 8:54 PM
They oughta change the name of his book to
CULTURE CAPITULATOR
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 8:58 PM
Hi Entelechy, I see important ways in which men’s choices and their influence have contributed to low birth rates. Under other circumstances, I would emphasize the role of men in the matter. However, women will be the locus of much of the change in the American way of life, if that way of life changes. So, although it seems rude to me, as it may also seem to you, it nevertheless seems necessary to show women the destructive tendency of “a woman’s right to choose,” as it’s been exercised in the decades since reliable contraception and legal abortion became available.
Kralizec on May 18, 2007 at 9:00 PM
Here’s an NRO article you should read.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDZmOGI0MDc0ZjViOGZhOTE0OTYwNzUyMzI2YWRmMDQ=&w=MA==
pocomoco on May 18, 2007 at 9:08 PM
See I don’t care if about the race. I care about the values. I want:
1. Judeo-Christian values as their primary worldview.
2. A belief in the rule of law and justice.
3. A desire to keep government at a minimum.
4. A desire for accomplishment and self-determination.
5. (Last but not least) To become part of America.
Tim Burton on May 18, 2007 at 9:11 PM
Mellen, thanks. Yes, actually I do understand that point, and I’ve made it myself on other occasions; however, I’m still glad you’ve raised the matter here. I think the Americans should consider preserving their country for their children who are being born now, by sharply raising the qualifying ages for Social Security and Medicare, sharply reducing taxes, and having many more children–starting much earlier in life.
Kralizec on May 18, 2007 at 9:13 PM
Permanent? Wanna bet? Think genocide. No way in hell will the Hispanics pander to blacks like whites do. They’ll just kill all of them.
jaleach on May 18, 2007 at 9:39 PM
BUILD THE WALL
ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS
IN 5 YEARS, WE WON’T NEED A NEW BILL
shooter on May 18, 2007 at 10:09 PM
You want to know why they are giving us the Amnesty….
NORTH AMERICAN UNION
They intend on merging the countries that is why only 2 miles of the promised border fence has been built from the senate measure that promised 800 miles in a year.
They do not want to have to tear it down.
I know Now all the Bush Koolaid will call me a conspiracy theorist.
All I can say, is Gregor and I warned you a year ago what was happening.
ScottyDog on May 18, 2007 at 10:13 PM
I believe you’re right about the idea of withholding taxes, but it’s sad that anyone would be forwarding that info from the website that you mentioned. They’re not any different than La Raza.
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 10:14 PM
Allah,
Iraq would have been a cakewalk if not for the democracy-building nonsense. Boot. Neck. Say hello.
The administration is learning only now what I’ve known since the invasion; you can’t make your troops servants of the people you conquered and expect to have peace.
Hiraghm on May 18, 2007 at 10:17 PM
And it’s almost humorous how many readers still post comments such as … “I just don’t get it. What’s in it for them? Why would they do such a thing? It doesn’t make sense.”
Duh.
I know, I know. Bush is just a swell guy who thinks it’s the right thing to do, right. And Ted Kennedy thinks alcohol is the Devil.
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 10:25 PM
jaleach …I have been advocating withholding taxes for quite some time…In fact I called all my reps on April 15th and told them that it would be the last time I pay taxes if they did NOT secure the border……….
Gregor and Scotty Dog…I’ve felt sure that this North Amnerican Union is the primary reason BUSH has ignored border security…deaths and costs to Americans are collateral damage to their “City on the Hill” …and dreams of having an entire continent under their control…The hispanic aspect fits right in with Jeb Bush and his up and coming hispanic son ready to continue the dynasty….I have felt it in my bones that he has betrayed us for a long long time.
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 10:25 PM
i’ve even mentioned here before that my brothers laugh when I say that…and now when light is starting to shine on marble head most will still deny what is sitting right in front of them….My brother said he is compassionate and he is sympathetic to hispanics because of his family ties…Hahahahhahaha Yeah he plans on having 20 million people over for Thanksgiving Dinner…….He should be impeached…Do you notice how calm Bush seems in light of all that is swirling around him..Iraq,oil,immigration…doesn’t bother him a whote because his ultimate plan is right on track and even if they do not sign an amnesty bill the hordes keep coming and then there will no way to get rid of them….NAU by default…game,set,match
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 10:29 PM
How to stop illegal immigration and fix this mess:
- build a physical fence; high tech just isn’t that good for this problem
- increase fines for companies that hire illegals; increase enforcement
- issue driver’s licences with a new designation I for immigrant, C for citizen. If you have an ‘I’ it means you also need to present a biometric card for various services; if you’re C, you don’t need to have a biometric card. This way, you prove your citizenship ONCE (make sure this is a very controlled system), and then rely on an ID already in use for determine whether you are a citizen or not. No infringement on citizens, more demands for compliance on immigrants (sorry guys)
- pass Federal Law stating that any Fed employee who knowingly helps an illegal alien obtain SS, Medicare, Medicaid, if found, will surrender their Federal pension and be subject to fines and jail time (and fired). There is too much corruption in social services already
- have the Federal Govt go after mayors who declare sanctuary cities, in violation of Federal Law. Jail them, fine them, cut off city funds. This new act apparently forces cities and counties to help establish whether or not an applicant worked in America. If they don’t help, they could lose Federal funds. How’s that for bending over backwards for a lawbreaker?
- illegal aliens caught will be fingerprinted and prohibited from ever becoming a citizen. Special case will be made for someone who has become ‘illegal’ as the result of missteps made while applying for green cards/ citizenship (right now, my immigrant friends tell me they are always paranoid they’ll do something wrong and invalidate their work permits and visas, or miss a deadline)
I think the above would stop illegal immigration pretty quickly.
linlithgow on May 18, 2007 at 10:37 PM
One last thought…
If Congress can’t build a 700 mile fence they authorised last year, why should we trust them with a 700 page bill?
We have laws; this is unnecessary complexity.
linlithgow on May 18, 2007 at 10:41 PM
Are you running for president? You’d get my vote!
I’ve heard this too over the years. If we implemented a program similar to what you propose, I think it would make legally becoming a citizen a lot easier. If we don’t have to worry about illegals, we could streamline legal avenues to citizenship.
jaleach on May 18, 2007 at 10:42 PM
So why hasn’t anyone taken the idea of amnesty and applied it to the companies and individuals that hire illegal aliens? Set a date, and if the companies fess up by that date and get rid of their illegal employees, they get amnesty. If they don’t, they get prosecuted.
It seems like that would do more to cut them (the ones that are already in-country) off at the source than anything else, and take away the incentive for new illegals to come. It’s simple (the number of companies that would be targeted would be far fewer than the number of individual illegals that would have to be found) and straightforward and gets near the root.
It doesn’t take that much for a company to get documentation showing the legal status of their employees, even if they are day laborers. That is, if the employees are legal residents. And if it makes the company go under, good riddance. We don’t need scum like that here.
Doghouse on May 18, 2007 at 10:51 PM
Here’s a quote from a Mexican fellow about the amnesty bill. (From foxnews.com.)
“They shouldn’t punish people who are just trying to get ahead,” he said.
Unless, of course, those people are breaking the law. Then, you should always punish them.
Doghouse on May 18, 2007 at 10:57 PM
The senate bill is over 1,000 pages when all they need to do is write one page of new law.
1 ENFORCE THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS.
2 BAN THE NORTH AMERICAN UNION
3 PUT THE MILITARY ON THE BORDER
4 BUILD THE FENCE
5 ILLEGALS GET NO SOCIAL SERVICES
6 100K 10 YEARS IN JAIL FOR HIRING ILLEGALS
7 POLITICIANS PANDERING TO ILLEGALS 25 YEARS IN PRISON
ScottyDog on May 18, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Nobody has considered what will happen when all these illegals get amnesty.
Okay, they’ll be “on the books”. Great. Now they’ll be unemployed as their former employers continue to hire illegals so they can have the cheap labor they can’t have by hiring workers legally.
I haven’t bred because the Michelle Malkins and Ann Coulters of the world are far too few and far between… Besides, what would a decent woman like one of them have to do with a goblin like me…
Hiraghm on May 18, 2007 at 11:14 PM
The politicos already KNOW what to do. They just won’t do it.
Mojave Mark on May 18, 2007 at 11:30 PM
natesnake-
I recited that Simpson’s quote to my husband this morning, except that I substituted ‘Democrat’ for ‘Hispanic’. With 10% of the population of Mexico here already, can it be long before we are Mexamerica?
As someone else already said, it’s not the ethnicity (my best friends in High School were Filipino, Ecuadorian, Black, and Thai/Persian), but the culture hit that I resent the most. I was in NJ recently and saw several bulletin boards all in Spanish. My grandfather and all my relatives had to learn English to thrive here- evolve or die, so to speak. I feel like an interloper in my own country. I feel bad for my immigrant friends from Vietnam, Hong Kong, etc. They now have to deal with TWO new languages on packaging and signs, not one.
Catie96706 - whenever I email, fax or call, I try to bring up the health issues as often as I can. Chigas (a parasite) cases are climbing in California and the TB you mentioned is a virulent strain that is almost entirely drug resistant, thanks to people taking a pill or two, feeling better and not taking the full cycle. According to the except I saw from the bill, it would NOT require illegal aliens to undergo a physical exam immediately in order to remain in the country.
Yet another reason right there to reject it off the bat. Legal immigrants have to submit to that or be denied; why is it one rule for legal immigrants, a more lax one for illegals?
linlithgow on May 18, 2007 at 11:35 PM
This will be transforming, and the progression of change will be accelerating.
Dollar to a donut says… In a decade or less, publicly praising Ronald Reagan will be treated as hate speech.
petefrt on May 18, 2007 at 11:36 PM
The saddest thing about all this is that it’s not really a difficult problem to solve at all. The solution is incredibly simple, and requires neither a fence or “mass deportations” which open-borders like to say are not possible in an effort to confuse people - they aren’t possible, but also are not needed.
If we simply enforced the laws we have now, and add employer sanctions with teeth, the problem would resolve itself without need for mass deportations or even a fence. Do those two simple things, and you will have elminated the very reason illegals come here in the first place - jobs.
Without being able to get work, illegals will have no other option but to SELF-DEPORT. They will simply have to go home on their own, because they’ll have no way to make a living here.
It’s that easy. No big new bill is needed. No rewarding law-breaking and screwing all those in line to get here legally is needed. No signing up of illegals to $2.5 TRILLION in Social Security and other services, AFTER their tax shares are accounted, is needed. And finally, no fence or mass deportations would be needed.
Why don’t we just try this easy, just and common-sense approach for a few years? Real enforcement of our actual laws, and THEN see what the problem really is before we scrap the whole system and reward law breakers with an amnesty bill?
I bet that after just 2 - 3 years of this simple policy we’d be looking at 1 - 2 million illegals instead of 12 - 20.
So why not just give that simple and fair solution a try first?
So no, the choice is NOT between “mass deportations” and anything else which conservatives would label amnesty. The third choice is enforcing the existing laws and adding tough employer sanctions - then watching the illegals go home on their own out of necessity.
daviddunn on May 18, 2007 at 11:58 PM
A NEW Law brought to you by the same people who wouldn’t enforce the PAST law.
Do they think we’re all insane?
And all of this cooing and fatally-naive sympathy for the scofflaw illegals who are here mocking our sovereignty, ignoring our laws, eroding our culture and undermining our future makes me suspicious.
You begin as a trespasser, a thief, a liar and an infil-traitor, and you’ve given out your basic morality.
If they did this to your house, you’d shoot them.
If they do it to your country, you feel sorry for them?
Demented.
profitsbeard on May 19, 2007 at 12:02 AM
No ones going to pony up for four figure fines
EricPWJohnson on May 19, 2007 at 2:16 AM
I’ve been reading a lot about bringing my girlfriend here from Japan, and all the forms and fees I have to pay to get her here. We could marry in Japan, and I could bring her over on the K-3 visa, which takes less time but includes more paperword, but the fees are still extremely high. (we’re talking over $1000, not counting extra costs like notary, plane tickets, and cost of an immigration attorney if needed). Seeing this kind of legislation essentially giving illegal aliens a free pass makes me so depressed and sick, I can’t describe it. It’s amnesty, plain and simple, and it’s so messed up, that I seriously doubt you’ll see many Illegals come out of hiding to fork over $5000 and go home voluntarily. That or our system will get flooded with so many applications for Z Visas, they’ll never be able to sift through all of them fast enough to avoid that 1 day limit, and we’ll wind up missing a LOT of bad apples along the way, or our people, under pressure to do as many as possible, will cut corners and approve some that shouldn’t be approved at all. This just has disaster written all over it. Emmigrating to Japan has never looked so good until now…
DakRoland on May 19, 2007 at 7:31 AM
You can’t stop there. The fact that we have businesses that need 12 million people to fill jobs. If all these illegals leave who does the work? Unemployment is at 4.5%, which means everyone who wants to work is working. My solution to that is to fast track all immigrants that are in the legal pipeline now. I do not know what their job skills are, but I’m pretty sure that most would be happy to work. I’m not talking about jobs in agriculture because I don’t think most americans give a crap about those jobs. Those jobs are not hard to fill because we ahve a system in place for immigrant farm workers. I’m talking about welders, cooks, and construction etc.
csdeven on May 19, 2007 at 8:09 AM
Problem is most people didn’t care until the problem is so big. I find you all a big group of Callous hypocrites who are piling on our president.
It is Reagan’s fault…Oh we can’t say that we have to make exuses becuase we’ve built him into this monolith of virtue that doesn’t exist and is eating us alive.
This Party is being unrealist and by extension the United States problem grows.
You know the media will gladly pile on the president and the party and conservative are taking advantage of this to do something only now.
Lazy white men and women caused this problem because you livet hrough expecting things to be done in you laziness and you don’t work for it. Don’t say…well I did this…You didn’t. We all have had a chance, well before the problem was this big and blew it. Quit trying to throw the president and republicans under the bus for our failings.
If you are genuine and want to do something…try, but the answer can’t and won’t be as good as it would have been 20 years ago. Good Luck.
tomas on May 19, 2007 at 8:31 AM
Thank you daviddunn for your post. Your’s is the reason I want Newt to run, as he has proposed the same. No new laws, just enforce the ones we already have.
My neighborhood is an example. My subdivision was built and zoned as “single family homes.” Yet the Mexican invasion started about five years ago. They move in homes with multiply families, converting garages and building on rooms. We have tried several times, just to have the zoning law enforced. No luck. Housing prices have gone down and we feel stuck.
The same has happened in the surrounding area. Shops and grocery stores have closed to have a “Spanish only” take its place. I’ve gone inside some of these stores just to be stared back as if I’m the one invading.
moonsbreath on May 19, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Tomas, thanks for your “constructive” criticism…hostile and totally useless.
What have YOU done to try to stop this, eh?
Get off your frakin’ soap box, and do something really constructive.
tickleddragon on May 19, 2007 at 11:09 AM
If only we were making the decision here, daviddunn. Instead it’s being made by people who just see new voters.
I’m still in favor of that overdue tax revolt. I’m willing to turn Independent Contractor and stop giving these gov monkeys my money until they start listening to their REAL LEGAL constituents again.
tickleddragon on May 19, 2007 at 11:16 AM
Ok…I’ll leave it to you guys…right.
tomas on May 19, 2007 at 11:27 AM
If President Bush is forwarding a “North American Union,” it seems he’s doing the Americans a favor. Neither the U.S. nor Mexico is keeping up in population and total fertility with either the muslim countries as a group or with India. I don’t pretend to know that the U.S. can annex Mexico while preserving its own present regime; however, if we imagine the two countries were successfully integrated today, the resulting country would have a population of 400 million people and, by my estimate, total fertility of about 2.2. It would still be puny, and getting punier, in comparison with the Dar al-Islam and India.
Kralizec on May 19, 2007 at 12:07 PM
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