Amnesty fallout: A permanent Democratic majority? Update: “Dangerous loopholes” in the bill? Update: “White flag,” says Border Patrol union
posted at 10:10 am on May 18, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Kaus keeps touting “leftist” objections that might derail the amnesty, “e.g., that the bill, by encouraging another flood of illegals, will drive down the wages of unskilled Americans.” Really? Which “leftists” are touting this except for centrists like himself and Ben Nelson, whom the left regularly deride as Republicans in Democrats’ clothing? Suppressed wages for unskilled workers might have bothered them 50 years ago, but it doesn’t anymore. Not only because multiculturalism has supplanted labor as a core leftist principle, but because they’re about to climb on board a political gravy train here and they damned well know it.
First and foremost, most Hispanics are Democrats. True, George W. Bush tied a record for winning Hispanics in the 37-40 percent range. (Don’t believe the nonsense that he got 44 percent of Hispanics. Those were the same exit polls that gave us “President Kerry.” The figures were revised down in 2005.) W received about the same level of Hispanic support as Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan did in their re-elections. But even if we are generous and grant that he got the 44 percent the Republican National Committee is claiming, that means a solid majority of Hispanics still voted for a lackluster Democrat against an incumbent Republican president who bent over backwards to court them in a time of war and low unemployment…
When did white conservative intellectuals become such experts on Latin culture? Don’t they know that every Spanish-speaking country in the world has a strong labor party abounding in machine politics? (Of course, the same neocons so enthusiastic about immigration reform are also the geniuses who gave us the “cakewalk” in Iraq!) Mexicans in Chicago are hooked into the Daley Machine, and it’s only a matter of time before the newly replenished barrios of the cities of the southwest send forth their own versions of Richard Daley (or “Ricardo Diaz” perhaps?). The past is prologue, so more immigrants probably means more future Democrats. Happy Days are here again!
Note what he says about labor. If the left is looking to soothe its conscience, they can justify this to themselves as a compromise by which they’ve hurt unskilled Americans now to help them later. A huge new population of legalized unskilled workers means not only new Democratic voters but unionization, possibly on a grand enough scale to bring about a reawakening of the labor movement. If so, that’ll encompass unskilled Americans too. Granted, it’ll be a cold comfort to those Americans that the jobs they would have gotten if not for the immigrant labor glut now pay a lot more than they did before, but like I say, we’re talking rationalizations here. As for the percentage of the Latino vote Dems can expect to grab in the future, the NRO piece lowballs it:
[A] reform package may be a feather in W’s cap, but that’s all. Sure President Bush will get credit from Hispanics for helping them, but he’s not eligible to run for another term. In all likelihood, he’ll get some marginal kudos while editorialists will beat the brains out of the “racist, nativist Republicans” who always screw over minorities. The likely end result of this will be a nasty fight in the Republican primaries of 2008, an alienated business community, very few Hispanic Republicans, more Democrats, and a depressed GOP base. The textbook definition of a disaster is getting the worst of all worlds.
Indeed, and it won’t just be editorialists. The reason the nutroots has started to reframe racial politics as Republicans versus “brown people” (which Ace, for one, writes about regularly) instead of relying on the traditional Republicans-versus-blacks paradigm is because (a) they’ve already got 90+% of the black vote, so returns are diminishing, and (b) with immigration front and center after 9/11, there’s a whole new minority group affected by key policies that they can demagogue the hell out of for votes. Hence the new, expansive “brown person” formulation, which pits most racial minorities against conservatives in one fell swoop by suggesting that “brownness” itself is somehow frightening or intolerable to us and thus the real cause of all this hand-wringing over open borders. That term of art hasn’t trickled up to the party establishment yet, so far as I know, but it surely will have by the time illegals are legalized and begin to unionize and register in numbers. If the rhetoric is deployed skillfully enough (and the left is very, very good at this sort of thing), it could raise what they’d doubtless call “brown consciousness” to the point where it’s worth another 10-20% of the already large and growing Latino vote.
So this is a big Democratic win, all of which makes Democratic support for the bill understandable and Republican support for it completely baffling, except as a weak hedge against future racial demagoguery by the left (“hey, we supported the amnesty too! we love ‘brown people!’”). And the beauty of it all is that the more control Democrats have over the government, the more likely it is that the current weak enforcement provisions will be rolled back and future amnesties will be granted. With medical advances being what they are, Teddy might be there to announce the next one too — which would make it the fourth amnesty he’s pronounced as the solution to the nation’s immigration problems.
Pelosi’s got a problem with her Blue Dogs, whose opposition to the bill given what it does for their party is mystifying unless they’re toeing the Kaus line about not throwing unskilled Americans under the bus. Either way, she claims that unless Bush can deliver 70 Republican votes in the House, she won’t even send the bill to the floor. In the meantime, Kaus has suggestions for what Republican opponents of the bill can do to stir up opposition on the left:
Perhaps House Democrats could be subtly encouraged to hold a large hearing, attended by activists from the undocumented community, at which spokespeople loudly demanded not just instant legalization but free instant legalization! (Speaker suggestion: Nativo Lopez.) They’ll be making these demands soon enough. Why not now? … They might also emphasize that they do not think they are immigrants at all–this is their homeland! We stole it from them. … Not only would these hearings mobilize Latino opposition to the compromise, they might also turn off the rest of the country (much as some famous hearings featuring George Wiley’s welfare rights activists soured the country on the guaranteed income). …
The takeaway there being, “They’ll be making these demands soon enough.” Oh, and as far as Kaus can tell, our suspicions yesterday were correct: there doesn’t seem to be any requirement that the enforcement provisions in the bill actually produce any enforcement, merely that certain resources be allocated to the task. Which is exactly what’s happened to the border fence, isn’t it?
There may be updates here later. Depends on how much fire and brimstone there is on the wires.
Update: Then again, illegals already vote in some cities. What’s the big deal?
Update: Here’s the White House fact sheet. Clearly they’re going to grant amnesty before the fence — even the partial fence they have in mind — is finished, otherwise it wouldn’t be keyed to miles. And yeah, Kaus is absolutely right: these aren’t results benchmarks (except for the fence, arguably), they’re resource benchmarks. To borrow an analogy he used in his own post, it’d be like pronouncing the surge a success based on the fact that all new forces have now been deployed.
Border Security And Worksite Enforcement Benchmarks Must Be Met Before A Temporary Worker Program Is Implemented. These benchmarks include:
Miles of fence constructed.
Number of Border Patrol Agents hired.
“Catch and Return” continues at the border.
Employment Eligibility Verification System ready to process all new hires.
The amnesty provisions:
Illegal Immigrants Who Come Out Of The Shadows Will Be Given Probationary Status. To maintain their probationary status, they must pass a background check, remain employed, and maintain a clean criminal record.
Illegal Immigrants Who Fulfill Their Probationary Requirements Can Apply For A Z Card, Which Will Enable Them To Live, Work, And Travel Freely. Z card holders will be required to pay a $1,000 fine, meet accelerated English and civics requirements, remain employed, and renew their visa every four years.
Z Card Holders Will Have An Opportunity To Apply For A Green Card, But Only After:
Paying an additional $4,000 fine,
Applying at the back of the line and waiting until the current backlog is cleared,
Returning to their home country to file their green card application, and
Demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.
So Lowry was wrong, I guess: they’re not legal as soon as the bill is signed, they’re legal once they “come out of the shadows” and claim their probationary status, which presumably means registration of some kind. My question, given the various hoops illegals are expected to jump through here, is how much incentive there is for any of them to actually comply with the system instead of just staying outside out and what the plan is to deal with those who don’t. Because I’ve got to tell you: given the touchback requirement and the merit-based “points system,” I don’t see a lot of unskilled illegals taking their chances by leaving the country with no reason to think they’ll be allowed back in. In which case — what do we do? Deport them? I thought our poor deportation capacity is what necessitated this deal in the first place.
Update: Wouldn’t you know it, pro-illegal groups are greeting the bill with a “warm, if qualified, embrace.” Meanwhile, DHS honcho Mike Chertoff gushes about his new schoolboy crush, Ted Kennedy: “He’s awesome!”
Update: AP has a projected timeline of the legislative process. The Senate will vote by Memorial Day but Bush isn’t expecting to sign it — assuming the bill survives — until August.
Update: There’s still no actual bill yet, by the way.
Update: Kate O’Beirne says there is indeed an actual bill (although it’s in flux) and that the Heritage Foundation has a copy of the latest version. Among the pearls:
They point out that once the bill is signed its language appears to create a “cease and desist” order on law enforcement given what looks like a prima facie assumption that any illegal alien is eligible for amnesty and can therefore be given preliminary legal status. Under the “Treatment of Application” section, once an application for the new “Z” visa has been filed, it appears that the government has only “one business day” to identity a disqualifying factor or the visa must be issued. And lots of provisions are apparently able to be waived by Cabinet secretaries so there’s plenty of discretion for the next Clinton administration.
Update: The president of the National Border Patrol Council lowers the boom:
“Every person who has ever risked their life securing our borders is extremely disheartened to see some of our elected representatives once again waving the white flag on the issues of illegal immigration and border security,” National Border Patrol Council President T.J. Bonner said…
“Rather than meaningless triggers of additional personnel and barriers outlined in the compromise, Americans must insist that border security be measured in absolute terms,” Mr. Bonner said. “Sadly, the plan that the Senate is proposing falls woefully short by that yardstick and needlessly jeopardizes the security of this nation.”
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I got news for you The fellow who runs NUMBERSUSA.COM is a democrat and the blacks are getting screwed more than anyone…haven’t you seen the race wars in LA and in prisons..The Blacks are not for this…and if Sharpton is it is for him and him alone as usual…..
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 1:13 PM
You simply must be joking. Ask a minority conservative how accepting liberals are of the idea that minorities can make their own political decisions. Michelle’s written about her encounters with the left on this point dozens of times; that cretin from the Black Panther party who called her a political prostitute expressed it succinctly. Any nonwhite conservative could tell you the same thing. You treat them as sellouts, as traitors, as Uncle Toms (if they’re black), and as all-around heretics. No one, but no one, demagogues race these days the way the left is, including your own pathetic attempt to do it here.
Any group can be demagogued; whites, in fact, arguably are the most easily demagogued group of all since they’ve resorted to the worst forms of totalitarianism, at least in recent times. What makes a group susceptible to demagoguery is mainly poverty and disenfranchisement, not race.
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 1:13 PM
No, its the very idea of Group politics. Dems are willing to BUY off minorities… promise them things as GROUPS.
I am a member of the ONLY unprotected class in America.. the Hetero White Male. EVERY other group has more protection under the law than I do. EVERY group gets some type of quota. EVERY group gets some form of Hate Crime protection. I’m a member of the only group not pandered to by Politicians. I’m a member of the only group who does NOT have some group representing it.
Lets see… NOW… La Raza… Hispanic Caucus… CAIR… NAACP… all of these are groups with either Gender or Racial identities, who are pandered to by the Dems and Libs.
Gotta give the Dems credit, they have managed to buy votes for years by dividing people up along racial, ethnic, sexual, or gender lines.
I’ll leave you with this…
Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 1:17 PM
Like abortion, gay marriage, and school vouchers?
Because blacks are much more conservative than their party on all three of those major issues.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:20 PM
As a matter of fact, the record shows that since 1933 Republicans had a more positive record on civil rights than the Democrats.
In the 26 major civil rights votes after 1933, a majority of Democrats opposed civil rights legislation in over 80 percent of the votes. By contrast, the Republican majority favored civil rights in over 96 percent of the votes.
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 1:21 PM
Hey, remember that crazy fringe dKos conspiracy theorist a few months ago who accused Bush of dragging his feet on Katrina aid to commit “ethnic cleansing by hurricane”?
Oh wait, that wasn’t a dKos diarist. That was Barney Frank, Democratic congressman and one of the leading intellectual lights of his party.
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 1:22 PM
Admit it…how many times did you giggle writing that?
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:23 PM
I didn’t. Barney Frank is actually a very intelligent guy, and a serious policy wonk. That’s my point — this garbage isn’t restricted to slackjawed Kossacks looking to throw a charge into one of their posts. This is coming from the upper echelons of the party, people who know very well what they’re doing and are doing it anyway.
Just look at how the debate’s already being framed: anti-amnesty conservatives are referred to derisively as “nativists.” Really? We’re nativists? The standard position among people I talk to is that of a very high fence with a very wide gate, i.e., making the requirements for legal immigration more lenient. That’s a funny position for a nativist to have, and even funnier if you yourself are a descendant of immigrants, which I am and which most of us are.
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 1:28 PM
The lament of the white man, the saddest song there is. 18 states don’t have hate crimes legislation for people based on sexual orientation or disability (so be careful when you say “EVERY”). You want to know why other groups have been given protection over the “Hetero White Male” group (by Hetero White Males may I remind you)? Because throughout the history of this country the Hetero White Males have in some way exploited “EVERY” (not really) minority there is. When you’re blessed with that honor you’re going to see other groups begin getting protection from certain things they didn’t use to have.
I forgot where Republicans never pandered to the NAACP. All politicians pander, don’t pretend like it’s just the Democrats.
You can keep on thinking that, but the truth is people are capable of making their own decisions, and when it came down to it the people in these minorities chose the Democrats over the Republicans (just as white people do).
How am I demagoguing race? I’ve stated that racial minorities simply agree with Democrats more than they do with Republicans and I’m a demagogue? I say Republicans are alienating minorities when they claim they’re incapable of making their own decisions and I’m a demagogue? Give me a break.
Ask poor or disenfranchised blacks why they don’t vote for Republicans and it won’t be “because Al Sharpton said so,” it’ll be because they don’t like Republicans or they agree with Democrats more often.
Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 1:29 PM
Maybe my view of Frank is colored by Howie Carr, who likes to make sport of him. I actually like the guy in interviews because he is naturally funny, not the forced political funny.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:30 PM
Hey, remember that DUer who accused the GOP majority of running the House of Representatives like a “plantation”?
Oh wait, that wasn’t a DUer. It was presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, addressing a black audience.
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 1:30 PM
We’re all descended from immigrants. Unfortunately, many of the new ones here in Los Angeles want us to immigrate back to Europe.
PRCalDude on May 18, 2007 at 1:30 PM
Even our own people are selling out.
This generation of Republicans has not only squandered conservative capital for 2008, but now is poised to put the GOP out of power for as far out as the eye can see.
petefrt on May 18, 2007 at 1:32 PM
I am a first generation, naturalized American (adopted from a foreign orphanage). Gratitude is why I am an enthusiastic Patriot and Conservative.
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 1:33 PM
Almost as funny as Ken Mehlman’s joke to the CBC: “You think the Democratic National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room? Only if they had the hotel staff in here.”
Wait, sorry. That was Howard Dean’s joke.
Mea culpa.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:34 PM
For today, maybe. But all this stuff is going to come back and bite the short-sighted Democrats in the butt when we enter the wonderful world of suicide bombings–and I’m convinced it’s only a matter of time–I can’t believe it hasn’t happened already. Planning a 911 is hard with all the surveillance we have. But the ol’ bomb belt full of bolts? Easy money, especially with our porous borders. So the Dems short-sightedness on Iraq will be highlighted then, and the Dems short-sightedness on immigration will be as well. They’d just better pray there is a Republican in the White House they can try to blame it on. As the savvy British diplomat said when asked what would extract England from a particularly sticky situation, “Events, dear boy, events!”
smellthecoffee on May 18, 2007 at 1:35 PM
Tru2my2
And if our husband dies and we are forced to have a nanny so that we can work to fee dour children and stay off of welfare?
Pulchritudinous Patriot on May 18, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Watching the Mexican ambassador on Cspan in front of the USChamber of (Horrors) Commerce…talking about how concern over safe trucks is just an excuse,as well as terrorism and nuclear devices are no problemo despite cartel run borders…(YUP right)…not to mention ports in Mexico to bring goods up from Mexico and cut out American ports….Still think there is no planned North American Union…Guess what THEY DON’T CARE WHAT YOU THINK!!!
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 1:41 PM
Pulchitrude..I raised a SON without a nanny and worked …what’s your excuse???
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 1:42 PM
Huh? You might check the Republican side of the isle on this immigration bill. And last I checked … there’s already a Republican in the White House to blame it on. He happens to be El Presidente
FoxBush.Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 1:44 PM
(a) I didn’t say minorities aren’t capable of making their own decisions, I said they’re capable of being demagogued, i.e., influenced by alarmist rhetoric that plays to people’s prejudices, just as all people are capable of the same thing, and (b) it’s Democrats who presume to dictate to minorities what the “proper decisions” are per their rank viciousness towards minority conservatives.
Yes, but to a 90+% extent? We know they don’t like Republicans; what we’re trying to discern here is how much of it is based on policy and how much of it is based on “they’re trying to kill you with hurricanes,” which, once again, is an equation that can be applied to any group. The Klan told vicious lies about progressive positions on race for years to keep people voting the right way. Would you shrug at that too on grounds that racist whites were just “voting their interests” or whatever?
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 1:44 PM
!
Short, fat people may get rights MASSACHUSETTS | Would law stop bias — or business?
May 18, 2007
BY KEN MAGUIRE
BOSTON — Ellen Frankel stands just 4-foot-8 inches tall, a size that allowed larger co-workers to playfully scoop her up at the office and make remarks about her height. Some even patted her on the head.
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 1:46 PM
Another perfect example.
Don’t worry, though — we know from Nonfactor that this sort of rhetoric has no effect, that thankfully minority voters are completely above and immune from the sort of racist demagogic appeals that whites routinely throughout history have been suckers for.
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 1:46 PM
Gotta eat!!……….Just a little levity to show that the entire world has gone insane!!!
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 1:46 PM
Via Breitbart (hat tip Powerline): “Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., acknowledging deep divisions on immigration among Democrats, says she won’t bring it up unless President Bush can guarantee he will produce 70 Republican backers—a tall order given GOP concerns that the bill is too lenient.”
This is how this monstrosity can be stopped. Contact your Republican representatives and try to get them to pledge to oppose the bill. If we can keep the number of Republican turncoats under 70, Pelosi won’t have enough cover to move forward. And she’s making a smart political calculation for once – all the rank and file Democrats I know hate this idea and blame Kennedy as much as Bush.
cool breeze on May 18, 2007 at 1:46 PM
Nonfactor
So which is it, are people individuals who can think for themselves and should be held accountable for their own individual choices, or are we just members of groups to be treated in accordance with how the group acts?
Because you are all over the board like the worst hypocrite the Christian church has ever produced.
Oxymoron of the day: “Liberal Thought”
Fatal on May 18, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Thank you for prooving my point for me…
You just said “Because throughout the history of this country the Hetero White Males have in some way exploited “EVERY” (not really) minority there is”
Proof please? As I said, YOU divide folks into groups, so you can place blame and pander. YOU grouped me… and just blamed my “group” for all of societys ills… irrespective of actual HISTORY! You just blamed ME for things, because I’m a white hetero male, for things that I NEVER DID!!!!
Please… point out ONE time in my life where I have discriminated against ANYONE???? Ah… but by your divisive politics, I have sinned against ALL the other folks in the country, and must take BLAME!!! Because I fit a racial sterotype??? And therefore, THEY get more rigths than I??? When America was based on INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITY, NOT GROUP RIGHTS!!! You know… the old equal protection under the law thing???
Bah… typical…
Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Right, because a solid majority of voting blacks favor public school mandates over school choice, gay marriage, citizen rights and amnesty for illegal aliens, and also have such a high opinion of Al Sharpton … [cue crickets] … uh, never mind.
Jaibones on May 18, 2007 at 1:48 PM
Oh, good heavens. We really have gone insane.
Time for me to grab a few burgers, I guess.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:50 PM
For those interested, here’s the story Mellen was referencing.
Wow.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:51 PM
I called my Senators. One gave me the DC two step about “compromise” and the other is vehemntly against any legislation that gives a path to citizenship that favors illegals over those waiting in line to become legal immigrants.
Both are republicans and one will not get my vote next time if he signs off on this bill.
csdeven on May 18, 2007 at 1:51 PM
Mellen…I have 2 daughters, both of whom are in school and I work full time. Forgive me if I don’t want them in a day care center but would prefer for them to be at home after school.
Pulchritudinous Patriot on May 18, 2007 at 1:51 PM
BTW..my nanny isn’t mexican or even a foreigner. She’s an American that I hired through a nanny service, who deducts taxes etc from her paycheck.
I mere responded to Tru2my2’s seemingly judgemental comment.
Pulchritudinous Patriot on May 18, 2007 at 1:53 PM
OOPS…mere=merely.
Pulchritudinous Patriot on May 18, 2007 at 2:00 PM
No, it’s all about the war on caucasians. The gringo race in the US is the first racial majority of a country in world history that is expected to allow itself to become a minority without a war. The US Census Bureau has already said there will no longer be a caucasian majority in 2050 and that was before all the recent amnesty and mass immigration talk.
It is one of the most profound events in world history and we’re not supposed to talk about it while it’s happening.
Perchant on May 18, 2007 at 2:09 PM
This is not a racial issue, it’s a law enforcement one.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 2:13 PM
I just called Webb, Warner, & Drakes offices in DC about this. Got a ho hum from Warner’s office, a “will take it into consideration” from Webb’s office and a “Not for amnesty either” from Drake’s office.
As for this racial talk back and forth, for me it’s not about that but about the loss of the American culture, the fact that everything is now in Spanish, the fact that this new group of immigrants don’t want to assimilate and something that hasn’t been brought up is the diseases they carry in with them. I have a friend who teaches in FL and had to learn Spanish and taught migrant kids. She contracted TB as did every other teacher who worked with those kids. The 9 month dosage of meds didn’t work and she had to take it for 18 months. Now she can’t get a teaching job because she’s got TB, brought to this country by those who do the jobs Geraldo won’t do.
I know big cities have “little Italy”, “Chinatown”, etc. but we have little Mexico all over the country.
Catie96706 on May 18, 2007 at 2:16 PM
I told Kyl’s office and McCain’s office that I will leave the Republican Party and will only change back during election season so I can vote against them.
Not that they care, they’ll have a bunch of Mexicans to mow their lawns….and for against them too.
Ironically for Mr. Graham who likes to refer to me as a bigot, I have more Hispanics in my family (mostly by marriage, but also through birth) than McCain, Kyl and Graham combined (I also have more blacks too).
Tim Burton on May 18, 2007 at 2:17 PM
It is also 100% cultural too. I don’t want people who refuse to assimilate.
Come to my side of town in Phoenix and try to tell me you aren’t in Mexico.
Tim Burton on May 18, 2007 at 2:18 PM
Tim tell me about it I’m in Glendale.
AZPatriot on May 18, 2007 at 2:25 PM
I don’t know about the rest of you guys, but I for one welcome our new Democratic Overlords (someone please quote me a being the first on record). Soon elections will just be a formality. It’s kinda nice not having to worry about politics anymore. I can finally set back and watch the world go by.
In fact, I should rush home and make a huge batch of potato salad as an offering. Our Overlords may be hungry, and I want to make a good first impression.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 2:27 PM
Good point.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 2:28 PM
Yes indeed, and now let me say thank you so much to Perchant for giving the left very good reason to call conservatives racist, notwithstanding the best efforts of most of the people in this thread to the contrary.
He’s banned.
Allahpundit on May 18, 2007 at 2:30 PM
Here’s an awesome immigration snark from by K-Lo at National Review
The Mood in My Inbox [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
Here’s another one that captures the mood of readers:
The last two years of this Bush presidency will well prepare us well
for the Hillary years. We won’t be able to tell the difference.
Okay, there is a difference. But, boy are people are muy caliente.
05/17 09:32 PM
Anton on May 18, 2007 at 2:32 PM
That was my first attempt at a link. The “National Review” should have been the link, not the whole quote.
Sorry, folks. I need to RTFM again…
Anton on May 18, 2007 at 2:33 PM
To me, it’s about citizenship and allegiance.
First of all, race and ethnicity are commonly and unfortunately used interchangeably. Hispanic and “gringo” refers to ethnicity, not separate races. Secondly, your comments come off as paranoid at best and racist at worst.
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 2:33 PM
Seriously though, the vast majority of Mexican immigrants are Catholic. I don’t think that is neccesarily a political slam dunk (votes) for Democrats. When it comes to wedge issues like abortion and same-sex marriage, we’ll likely get the same proportion as currently demonstrated in the Catholic vote.
I have no hard facts; just intuition.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 2:43 PM
I see brown people….
Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa!!!
*runs away in terror*
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 2:45 PM
None of this matters. Hear me now and believe me later when liberals have totally destroyed this Country…
THE GOP IS ITS OWN WORST ENEMY
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2007/05/18/republicans_really_are_the_stupid_party
NRA4Freedom on May 18, 2007 at 2:45 PM
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 2:47 PM
That’s hard to say. A lot of my relatives are Hispanic Catholics, and most of them are Democrat to the marrow.
What’s interesting to me is that Hispanics of the previous generation were more likely to assimilate than the current generation. I’m not sure what has changed, to be honest.
Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 2:47 PM
Can add to it this story that the US has taken in 8,500 Burundians in a deal with the UN. They will be relocated to Atlanta and Phoenix
Burundi refugees move to U.S. after 35 years in exile
GENEVA (Reuters) – The first of some 8,500 Burundian
refugees who fled their homeland 35 years ago have
begun a long journey from camps in Tanzania to new
homes in the U.S. cities of Atlanta and Phoenix, the
United Nations said on Friday.
Story here
William Amos on May 18, 2007 at 2:53 PM
I used your assesment of Perchant to frame my little skit, “paranoid at best and racist at worst”.
It was directly aimed at Perchant.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 2:53 PM
Throughout this entire thread I’ve supported the idea of the individual making their own decisions. Even the second quote of mine does not contradict that. People are still capable of making their own decisions and for conservatives to speculate that minorities don’t truly believe in certain causes, rather that they’re being tricked into believing in them is absurd. If someone says they believe a certain thing you should take them at their word, anything else is baseless speculation.
You do realize that when I said “EVERY” I was joking, right? The truth is “Hetero White Males” have been responsible for exploiting many of the minorities in this country, don’t blame me for pointing that out, blame those “Hetero White Males” who did the exploiting. Let me run through the generalized list and if you take objection to the exploitation of any of these groups feel free to speak up: Africans (1500s-1900s), Women (1500s-1900s), Native Americans (1500s-1900s), Mexicans (1800s-1900s), Asians (1800s-1900s), Homosexuals (1900s), and I’m sure I’m leaving out quite a few more groups.
I in know way blamed you for all of society’s ills, I stated that “Hetero White Males” have in some way exploited many of the minorities in this country. When I made this statement it wasn’t to somehow criticize you or any other “Hetero White Male” I know, but it was simply said to point out a fact and ridicule the whining you seem to be engaging in.
More rights than you? Are you kidding me? What right does a black man have that you don’t? Does the government allow a black man to protest and prohibit you from doing so? Is the right to bear arms biased towards women? Please, name me a right that these minority groups have over the stereotypical “Hetero White Male.” You’re acting like an alarmist punk.
Your point being… By and large black people agree with the Democrats (agree with them on the issues they care about) or disagree with Republicans, and thus they vote for them [Democrats]. I can see your frustration and I eat it up. You don’t know why more black people don’t vote for Republicans when a majority of black people aren’t in favor of allowing gay marriage et cetera–guess what, it must not be an issue that weighs in too heavily when the majority of black people vote.
Because a Republican isn’t President and doesn’t have the veto power… Oh wait…
I don’t think that was a reason to ban a guy. Sure, it was pretty racist, but diversity of opinion and all that. I’d at least want to hear him explain himself.
Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 2:55 PM
Unity… continued
I agree with Allah on the ‘high fence, wide-gate’ approach.
We can be unified on focusing first on the high fence… leave the gate discussion for more argument (it isn’t as critical in terms of timing).
If we want a ‘No Surrender’ Commander in Chief in ‘08 then we need to stay unified AND keep the independents that voted GOP in ‘04.
Arguing over definitions of what is and what is not ‘amnesty’ only distracts and chases away the independents we need… don’t forget that Gore won the popular vote in ‘00… we need them on our side or things will be worse…
one neocon’s opinion
Still-A-Neocon
stillaneocon on May 18, 2007 at 2:55 PM
Ok, whew
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 2:55 PM
Jay Tea at Wizbang made the point a long time ago that this is not immigration, it’s colonization:
Immigrants leave behind their native culture and society to join another. They might bring pieces of it, but their main motivation is to be a part of that society, perhaps improve it a bit with parts of their own, but the mainly intend to assimilate. They see something better for them, and want to be a part of it.
You can’t watch footage from the May Day protests and tell me that these people are immigrants who want to be Americans.
Laura on May 18, 2007 at 2:55 PM
I wonder if it is geographical? A large portion of Hispanics in my area are flag waving conservative Catholics. Perhaps it’s group think in confined metropolitan areas and less so in smaller cities and rural areas?
Maybe it’s just my skewed perception.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 2:57 PM
Damn, but you’re on a roll, AP. Between you and the boss, who just came up with the official name of this, “The J. Wellington Wimpy immigration plan”, there isn’t much left to say. However, I’ll try….
I don’t think it was a coincidence that the last major victory for small-government conservatives was 1994, or that it turned into a hollow victory with little more than a minor change in welfare. Right about then, the masses who received amnesty in 1986 were starting to become naturalized.
steveegg on May 18, 2007 at 3:00 PM
Are you critiquing my potato salad? I’ll take a lot of abuse, but no one, I mean NO ONE, talks bad about my potato salad!
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 3:03 PM
If this bill ever becomes law it will be the beginning of the end. The American fabric and identity as we know it will cease to exist, and outside of extreme circumstances (i.e. chaos in war time) the Republican Party will be marginalized, and soon we will only have left and far left. And once that happens, it’s all over.
SO WHY WOULD ANY REPUBLICAN OR FREEDOM LOVING AMERICAN SUPPORT THIS?!
Patriot33 on May 18, 2007 at 3:04 PM
That line of thinking in the 1960s and 1970s is what allowed the Dems to overcome both the historic Baptist roots of blacks and a century-long policy of racism in a frighteningly-short period of time. The Republicans are bound and determined to toss away social conservatism (again), which will result in the same dynamic playing out again.
steveegg on May 18, 2007 at 3:07 PM
I’ll venture a guess! The real issue must be…Getting Even!
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 3:10 PM
Unbelievable!
That’s it, I’m moving to Mexico…
CliffHanger on May 18, 2007 at 3:19 PM
The answer to that is right in front of your face, but many on this site who have no other explanation themselves will mock you if you dare suggest it.
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 3:40 PM
Too late. You’re already living there.
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 3:41 PM
Good luck, they actually enforce immigration over there.
For the people who keep nudging this into a race thing, knock it the hell off.
This is about the law, ideology, and American values. By legalizing illegals, we’re in essence declaring that the idea of rule of law no longer holds, what obligation do any of us have to obey the law if they reward illegal behavior? Any crime can now be ratonalized by pointing to the gov’t and its hypocrisy.
Ideology and American values will be undermined as well, the Left will hold a longterm majority, and America itself will be undermined, and the America you and I know and love will be destroyed. We have to keep an eye on the ball.
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 3:44 PM
Because it’s profitable, but not politically wise in the long turn, and they are short-sited.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 3:46 PM
What, that they’re probably bought and paid, and half of them are RINOs who are more concerned with getting to hang out with all the cool Leftists at all the best cocktail parties in DC, and have nothing but disdain for the people they represent?
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 3:46 PM
S/b short-sighted – Enlish is really hard.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 3:47 PM
Let me start by saying that I’ll likely be burned at the stake and branded a conservative heretic, but…
What if Bush DID play the right card by being a part of amnesty? We currently have a Dem controlled House and Senate. 2008 will likely keep the status quo in the Upper and Lower Houses and quite possibly will elect a Dem president. They’ll pass amnesty then if Bush doesn’t do it now.
Perhaps Bush being on the leading edge of amnesty is meant to help create GOP Hispanic voters? Otherwise, the inevitable amnesty happens in 2008 and Dems gather the vast majority in their fold.
Yup. The GOP can be part of the solution or be labled the problem.
I’m just thinking outside the box here. Don’t throw your shoes at me too hard.
I bruise easily.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 3:48 PM
Hispanics are not going to be moving into the Republican column in any great number. There are a myriad of reasons for that: almost half of Hispanic births are illegitimate (so you can forget the Hispanic family values nonsense), Latin America does not adhere to any sort of conservatism that would be recognizable to us in the English-speaking world, etc.
tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 3:54 PM
natesnake, after they read this you will have nothing to worry about.
Congratulations, you have rediscovered the thinking that led to the infamous Dred Scott decision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott
pedestrian on May 18, 2007 at 3:55 PM
And lets see…
Blacks sold blacks into slavery, and of course Arabs… so they should be piloried as well for their “groups”… oh… but wait… a whole lot of White Males died to free the slaves… while slavery still exists in Africa and part of Asia.
Women? It was White men who gave them the VOTE! And equal Rights, and was one of the first countries to do so.
Mexicans? Would those be the Mexican Indians? The mixed race, or the Spanish? or… maybe the French?… or that Austrian guy who was on their throne for awhile?
Asians? amazing how well they integrated. Owned businesses, land, learned English, and are now put in the same category as white guys for college entrance…
Homosexuals??? you do know that there are more HATE crimes agianst Homosexuals commited by Blacks, than by whites? That Islam will stone them to death… this is one of the BEST societys to be a homosexual in in the entire world.
And yes, you forgot the Irish, the Portugese (remember portegee jokes as a kid), the EEEytalians, some Germans during WWI and WWII, which… wait… were all WHITE GUYS…
Ooopppssss there goes your paradign…
Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 3:56 PM
Would that be those future voters currently marching our streets holding signs of Bush as a Nazi? Most illegals hate Bush with a passion, even while he makes it his mission in life to give the U.S. to They’re going to be voting socialist.
Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 3:58 PM
Ugh.
I’ll tell you one thing, it’s a crappy time to be out of work because your company just moved to f-ing Mexico. I’m too old and banged up to go back on active duty…
So, not only are we losing manufacturing to Mexico, they get to send masses of unemployed up here to take whatever jobs are left.
It’s simply astonishing that one of the architects of the original 1969 legislation that essentially started the illegal mess is now basking in glory.
reaganaut on May 18, 2007 at 4:00 PM
Natesnake, I would drive the fire engine to save you from burning at the stake. However, I will throw my slippers at you. Bush has been for amnesty for so long that this hardly looks like a wisely timed stratagem. And I agree with those (including Allahpundit who wrote the post) who point out that Hispanic voters are unlikely to become GOP voters as a result of this bill. And the GOP is going to be labeled the problem no matter what they do. Heck, they could find the cure for cancer and the left would howl that we are discriminating against people with AIDS.
RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 4:00 PM
Wow, you’ve managed to turn an entire post into a red herring!
Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 4:03 PM
RWS – Let me toss a couple things out in response to some of your questions.
First, you contend that we can’t deport all 12 million illegal immigrants. I’m willing to believe this is true but we don’t know that because we’ve never actually tried. In fact, we don’t even deport the illegal immigrants we take into custody. ICE right now says there are over 600,000 illegals who are supposed to be deported, were once in ICE custody, but now are unaccounted for. Wouldn’t you agree that we can at least deport the illegals that our law enforcement professionals have in custody immediately? That would put a pretty good-sized dent in the numbers. We could deport the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants who are currently in our prison system as well, adding a few more to the numbers. Why not actually make an attempt to deport the illegals we can find? How many do you think we might find on a one-day sweep of known, public, highly-visible “day laborer” gathering places? I’d bet you’d end up in the six figures in that one day.
So perhaps we can’t deport them all. We can certainly deport enough of them to make it known that we actually intend on enforcing the laws we have right now. That may not be a final answer but, combined with an actual border security effort, it makes a pretty good one to start.
But, let’s assume that you’re right and we can’t deport all 12 million. Let’s go even farther and say that we can’t deport even a quarter of that total. What makes you think that virtually the same number of personnel who can’t deport that many illegals can competently register, process, and track them in a new system and track down and deport the ones who violate the new laws? ICE can’t handle the load of law-abiding immigrants we have now who are patiently waiting years to make their way through the system. How are you going to convince me that it can handle even more?
As for more Hispanic voters voting Republican…well…as a percentage of the voters, it just ain’t happening. Immigration is, for most Americans, not a political issue. Treating as such strikes me as the kind of cynical stuff that the voters made very clear they are sick of seeing. If the Republicans are going to “win” on the immigration issue, they’re going to have to find a principle (more than “win an election”) and stick to it no matter what mean names the Democrats call them.
Jimmie on May 18, 2007 at 4:12 PM
My white brother-in-law would beg to differ–unless you consider marrying a black woman and producing four children with her and working two jobs to support his family to be “exploitation.”
baldilocks on May 18, 2007 at 4:15 PM
Sorry nate, but after witnessing six years of wussitude in dealing with his domestic political enemies, his worse-than-horrible record on enforcing the border, and his hard-on for amnesty, I’m not willing to give W. even the slightest benefit of the doubt.
Bush is not politically astute enough to pull off what you suggest, and furthermore, there is no evidence that his attempt to pander to Hispancis by granting amnesty to illegals (again, soft bigorty of low expectations) will result in a new, reliable voting bloc for the GOP.
Caving to the democrats and La Raza won’t help the GOP Hispanic voters. And the slap in the face to all legal immigrants, Hispanic and non-Hispanic alike, won’t help either. Instead, those groups will despise W. even more. After all, how did his other cave-ins on left-wing policies help him?
It’s good to think outside of the box, but I think in this case you are trying to polish a turd, which will still be a turd no matter how good of a job you do.
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 4:15 PM
Yep, the melting pot is gone. Things will only get worse as the older generations fade away, too.
Much of my animosity is based on the sense of entitlement these illegals have. I am also frustrated when illegals are lumped together with legal immigrants. I don’t think anyone wants to stifle immigration, heck, I wouldn’t mind if it was easier for people (all people, not just special interest Latinos) to come here.
reaganaut on May 18, 2007 at 4:18 PM
Good observations and questions. My opinion is that policy trumps the “trying to kill us” stuff. Blacks are still disproportionately poorer than other demographic groups. The reasons for this are a thread or two in itself.
In the middle class and higher income groups some blacks trend to more moderate, conservative positions.
Where I think the republicans get it wrong is that they focus on the race baiters like Sharpton more than is needed. The old chestnuts about Jesse and Al are trotted out almost every time. Nobody likes to be labeled a tool and the backlash shouldn’t be that surprising.
Only my opinion but I think that when black voters see that Republican interest in their well being transcends politics the numbers will start to even out. Look at all the comments about illegal immigration that assume that the illegals would vote democrat. There is no real proof that this is so. I think the trend may be a little more on the traditional values side, meaning republican. Their families and extended families have strong bonds and support groups. Hard work and sacrifice tends to make people less favorable of taxes than more favorable. The black community on the other hand is fractured badly and these extended family support networks are simply not there. Who else to turn to but Uncle Sugar?
Again just an opinion.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 4:18 PM
If this splits the GOP like it seems to be doing, it is a Red Alert emergency. We simply cannot afford a Democrat administration in the middle of a war. Very, very, very cool heads and very, very, very insightful strategists (enough with the strategery) are needed, right now.
Halley on May 18, 2007 at 4:19 PM
BTW, as quiet as it’s kept by the MSM, there is a great deal of tension between illegal immigrants from Mexico and native-born working-class blacks. The latter see the former as interlopers who have contributed to black unemployment.
baldilocks on May 18, 2007 at 4:19 PM
ABC News has this video about the system
Here
William Amos on May 18, 2007 at 4:19 PM
Recommend this link
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/04/post_20.html
It rebuts your assertion very nicely.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 4:23 PM
Good point, but there is also a lot of tension between legal Mexican immigrants and illegals. Also, up here in the northeast, there is a lot of tension between the native Puerto Rican population and the illegals Mexicans. Right here in Ted Kennedy’s backyard.
reaganaut on May 18, 2007 at 4:25 PM
Thank you. You’re a gentleman and a scholar.
Et tu RushBaby. Et tu….
Yes, Bush has been for amnesty for a while. He could see the writing on the wall. That’s what this boils down to. Perhaps history books will be the only thing that remembers who granted it. We all know how history remembers southern democrats as the foil to Civil Rights? It doesn’t.
The flood gates are opening regardless. Instead of describing the temperature of the water to a drowning man, maybe we should be looking for a life perserver? We should be discussing how to structure the finer points of amnesty (as unfair as it may be) instead of cursing the inevitable.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 4:28 PM
Amnesty has been the Republican policy all along, why is it such a surprise that they’re going along with it now? The Republican amnesty has been for the businesses that break labor and minimum wage laws, but it’s functionally equivalent to the Democrats’ open border policy. Republican policies have been a wink, nod, and “bienvenidos!” for decades, it would be hypocritical to now say “go home.”
Let’s build the fence, slam international wire transfers with a tax and put the revenue in a health care fund, start going after the businesses that break U.S. employment laws, and do the best we can to turn the South/Central Americans living here into Americans.
RightOFLeft on May 18, 2007 at 4:29 PM
HA- Do you have, and are you going to post, the Tancredo vid from FOX-Cavuto show today? Thx.
shooter on May 18, 2007 at 4:30 PM
You are correct. I’m not saying I like or want amnesty. But, amnesty appears to be a fore gone conclusion. We should be discussing how to make it more palatable.
natesnake on May 18, 2007 at 4:36 PM
Well, it seems my assertion is based on reality, not on an article.
Maybe we live in different parts of the country, but come on up to Western Massachusetts and tell me that learning English is a priority.
Seriously, you quote an article as a rebuttal? One thing we have up here is a lot of immigrants, from all generations. Only now, we have to hire extra teachers, translators in the courts, companies, you can’t go anywhere without seeing signs in at least 2 languages. All that costs the taxpayers more money.
Not much need to learn English is there? Funny though – I don’t see signs in Polish or Russian. Heck , I was in Home Depot and the announcements were entirely in Spanish – entirely! Why you ask? Well that’s the store of choice for illegals who are contractors.
So please, don’t quote some some article, when I can see reality with my own eyes.
reaganaut on May 18, 2007 at 4:38 PM
Anybody who thinks the current illegal immigration number is 12 million has just not been paying attention. They have been quoting that number for years now. Conservative estimates by the border patrol quote that for every illegal apprehended 3 get across. That works out to about 2 million a year and that is a conservative estimate. I personally doubt that even the sometime quoted 20 million is right. Add to that “family reunification” and the fact that the birth rate for mestizo’s is about 4.8 per female and the number is probably 30-40 million plus. That is why we must deport weather through attrition or otherwise. There is no other option if we hope to preserve our republic, our culture and our way of life.
Altura Ct. on May 18, 2007 at 4:38 PM
The article was based on a study by PEW which arguably has a better 50,000 foot view than you do in your one part of the country.
Don’t believe it – no skin off my nose. But don’t expect me to take what you say as gospel just because you say it. Facts and sources are wonderful things.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 4:41 PM
It’s only a foregone conclusion if you surrender to it. If enough people have the will to fight it, it’s anything but a foregone conclusion.
To surrender now to amnesty is no better than the democrats surrendering in Iraq.
thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 4:46 PM
I wrote my Senator yesterday to voice my opinion about the immigration debaucle. Here’s the canned response from K.B. Hutchison, R-TX:
Sorry it’s so long, but I’m interested to know if anyone else got the same letter. Pis*es me off, actually, that it’s such a canned response. She obviously knew she’d get a bunch of flak over her support of this immigration bill and probably had this all typed up and ready to go. Representative republic, my as*.
pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 4:50 PM
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