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Amnesty fallout: A permanent Democratic majority? Update: “Dangerous loopholes” in the bill? Update: “White flag,” says Border Patrol union

posted at 10:10 am on May 18, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Kaus keeps touting “leftist” objections that might derail the amnesty, “e.g., that the bill, by encouraging another flood of illegals, will drive down the wages of unskilled Americans.” Really? Which “leftists” are touting this except for centrists like himself and Ben Nelson, whom the left regularly deride as Republicans in Democrats’ clothing? Suppressed wages for unskilled workers might have bothered them 50 years ago, but it doesn’t anymore. Not only because multiculturalism has supplanted labor as a core leftist principle, but because they’re about to climb on board a political gravy train here and they damned well know it.

First and foremost, most Hispanics are Democrats. True, George W. Bush tied a record for winning Hispanics in the 37-40 percent range. (Don’t believe the nonsense that he got 44 percent of Hispanics. Those were the same exit polls that gave us “President Kerry.” The figures were revised down in 2005.) W received about the same level of Hispanic support as Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan did in their re-elections. But even if we are generous and grant that he got the 44 percent the Republican National Committee is claiming, that means a solid majority of Hispanics still voted for a lackluster Democrat against an incumbent Republican president who bent over backwards to court them in a time of war and low unemployment

When did white conservative intellectuals become such experts on Latin culture? Don’t they know that every Spanish-speaking country in the world has a strong labor party abounding in machine politics? (Of course, the same neocons so enthusiastic about immigration reform are also the geniuses who gave us the “cakewalk” in Iraq!) Mexicans in Chicago are hooked into the Daley Machine, and it’s only a matter of time before the newly replenished barrios of the cities of the southwest send forth their own versions of Richard Daley (or “Ricardo Diaz” perhaps?). The past is prologue, so more immigrants probably means more future Democrats. Happy Days are here again!

Note what he says about labor. If the left is looking to soothe its conscience, they can justify this to themselves as a compromise by which they’ve hurt unskilled Americans now to help them later. A huge new population of legalized unskilled workers means not only new Democratic voters but unionization, possibly on a grand enough scale to bring about a reawakening of the labor movement. If so, that’ll encompass unskilled Americans too. Granted, it’ll be a cold comfort to those Americans that the jobs they would have gotten if not for the immigrant labor glut now pay a lot more than they did before, but like I say, we’re talking rationalizations here. As for the percentage of the Latino vote Dems can expect to grab in the future, the NRO piece lowballs it:

[A] reform package may be a feather in W’s cap, but that’s all. Sure President Bush will get credit from Hispanics for helping them, but he’s not eligible to run for another term. In all likelihood, he’ll get some marginal kudos while editorialists will beat the brains out of the “racist, nativist Republicans” who always screw over minorities. The likely end result of this will be a nasty fight in the Republican primaries of 2008, an alienated business community, very few Hispanic Republicans, more Democrats, and a depressed GOP base. The textbook definition of a disaster is getting the worst of all worlds.

Indeed, and it won’t just be editorialists. The reason the nutroots has started to reframe racial politics as Republicans versus “brown people” (which Ace, for one, writes about regularly) instead of relying on the traditional Republicans-versus-blacks paradigm is because (a) they’ve already got 90+% of the black vote, so returns are diminishing, and (b) with immigration front and center after 9/11, there’s a whole new minority group affected by key policies that they can demagogue the hell out of for votes. Hence the new, expansive “brown person” formulation, which pits most racial minorities against conservatives in one fell swoop by suggesting that “brownness” itself is somehow frightening or intolerable to us and thus the real cause of all this hand-wringing over open borders. That term of art hasn’t trickled up to the party establishment yet, so far as I know, but it surely will have by the time illegals are legalized and begin to unionize and register in numbers. If the rhetoric is deployed skillfully enough (and the left is very, very good at this sort of thing), it could raise what they’d doubtless call “brown consciousness” to the point where it’s worth another 10-20% of the already large and growing Latino vote.

So this is a big Democratic win, all of which makes Democratic support for the bill understandable and Republican support for it completely baffling, except as a weak hedge against future racial demagoguery by the left (“hey, we supported the amnesty too! we love ‘brown people!’”). And the beauty of it all is that the more control Democrats have over the government, the more likely it is that the current weak enforcement provisions will be rolled back and future amnesties will be granted. With medical advances being what they are, Teddy might be there to announce the next one too — which would make it the fourth amnesty he’s pronounced as the solution to the nation’s immigration problems.

Pelosi’s got a problem with her Blue Dogs, whose opposition to the bill given what it does for their party is mystifying unless they’re toeing the Kaus line about not throwing unskilled Americans under the bus. Either way, she claims that unless Bush can deliver 70 Republican votes in the House, she won’t even send the bill to the floor. In the meantime, Kaus has suggestions for what Republican opponents of the bill can do to stir up opposition on the left:

Perhaps House Democrats could be subtly encouraged to hold a large hearing, attended by activists from the undocumented community, at which spokespeople loudly demanded not just instant legalization but free instant legalization! (Speaker suggestion: Nativo Lopez.) They’ll be making these demands soon enough. Why not now? … They might also emphasize that they do not think they are immigrants at all–this is their homeland! We stole it from them. … Not only would these hearings mobilize Latino opposition to the compromise, they might also turn off the rest of the country (much as some famous hearings featuring George Wiley’s welfare rights activists soured the country on the guaranteed income). …

The takeaway there being, “They’ll be making these demands soon enough.” Oh, and as far as Kaus can tell, our suspicions yesterday were correct: there doesn’t seem to be any requirement that the enforcement provisions in the bill actually produce any enforcement, merely that certain resources be allocated to the task. Which is exactly what’s happened to the border fence, isn’t it?

There may be updates here later. Depends on how much fire and brimstone there is on the wires.

Update: Then again, illegals already vote in some cities. What’s the big deal?

Update: Here’s the White House fact sheet. Clearly they’re going to grant amnesty before the fence — even the partial fence they have in mind — is finished, otherwise it wouldn’t be keyed to miles. And yeah, Kaus is absolutely right: these aren’t results benchmarks (except for the fence, arguably), they’re resource benchmarks. To borrow an analogy he used in his own post, it’d be like pronouncing the surge a success based on the fact that all new forces have now been deployed.

Border Security And Worksite Enforcement Benchmarks Must Be Met Before A Temporary Worker Program Is Implemented. These benchmarks include:

Miles of fence constructed.
Number of Border Patrol Agents hired.
“Catch and Return” continues at the border.
Employment Eligibility Verification System ready to process all new hires.

The amnesty provisions:

Illegal Immigrants Who Come Out Of The Shadows Will Be Given Probationary Status. To maintain their probationary status, they must pass a background check, remain employed, and maintain a clean criminal record.

Illegal Immigrants Who Fulfill Their Probationary Requirements Can Apply For A Z Card, Which Will Enable Them To Live, Work, And Travel Freely. Z card holders will be required to pay a $1,000 fine, meet accelerated English and civics requirements, remain employed, and renew their visa every four years.

Z Card Holders Will Have An Opportunity To Apply For A Green Card, But Only After:

Paying an additional $4,000 fine,
Applying at the back of the line and waiting until the current backlog is cleared,
Returning to their home country to file their green card application, and
Demonstrating merit under the merit-based system.

So Lowry was wrong, I guess: they’re not legal as soon as the bill is signed, they’re legal once they “come out of the shadows” and claim their probationary status, which presumably means registration of some kind. My question, given the various hoops illegals are expected to jump through here, is how much incentive there is for any of them to actually comply with the system instead of just staying outside out and what the plan is to deal with those who don’t. Because I’ve got to tell you: given the touchback requirement and the merit-based “points system,” I don’t see a lot of unskilled illegals taking their chances by leaving the country with no reason to think they’ll be allowed back in. In which case — what do we do? Deport them? I thought our poor deportation capacity is what necessitated this deal in the first place.

Update: Wouldn’t you know it, pro-illegal groups are greeting the bill with a “warm, if qualified, embrace.” Meanwhile, DHS honcho Mike Chertoff gushes about his new schoolboy crush, Ted Kennedy: “He’s awesome!”

Update: AP has a projected timeline of the legislative process. The Senate will vote by Memorial Day but Bush isn’t expecting to sign it — assuming the bill survives — until August.

Update: There’s still no actual bill yet, by the way.

Update: Kate O’Beirne says there is indeed an actual bill (although it’s in flux) and that the Heritage Foundation has a copy of the latest version. Among the pearls:

They point out that once the bill is signed its language appears to create a “cease and desist” order on law enforcement given what looks like a prima facie assumption that any illegal alien is eligible for amnesty and can therefore be given preliminary legal status. Under the “Treatment of Application” section, once an application for the new “Z” visa has been filed, it appears that the government has only “one business day” to identity a disqualifying factor or the visa must be issued. And lots of provisions are apparently able to be waived by Cabinet secretaries so there’s plenty of discretion for the next Clinton administration.

Update: The president of the National Border Patrol Council lowers the boom:

“Every person who has ever risked their life securing our borders is extremely disheartened to see some of our elected representatives once again waving the white flag on the issues of illegal immigration and border security,” National Border Patrol Council President T.J. Bonner said…

“Rather than meaningless triggers of additional personnel and barriers outlined in the compromise, Americans must insist that border security be measured in absolute terms,” Mr. Bonner said. “Sadly, the plan that the Senate is proposing falls woefully short by that yardstick and needlessly jeopardizes the security of this nation.”


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AP, I cannot get the home page to update. Is it me or is this a result of yesterdays problems?

csdeven on May 18, 2007 at 10:19 AM

Amen. Awesome post – been looking for an analysis like this, one I can cite in good conscience. This one is it.

It’s also time Republicans wake up to just how bogus W’s gamble on “Hispanics” – itself a dubious category, based on linguistics and lumping the Cuban middle class with Quicha peasants – has panned out. The statistics were bogus to begin with; the translation of Mexicans’ “social conservatism” and Catholicism to some form of social values-based alliance is likely a canard from the get-go; and even in the best-case scenario, there just is no way the Republicans can out-pander the Democrats, lest they become Democrats themselves.

RD on May 18, 2007 at 10:26 AM

Unity

What convinced many independent/neocons—who voted for Democrats in 2000 (remember Al got the popular vote)—to vote for Republicans in 2004 was unity over the war.

Many of us are not strongly invested in the immigration debate apart from better border security. There may be a variety of acceptable ideas to this group about what is done with the 12 million illegal aliens here now.

My point is that this group is not really invested in the argument over whether such and such bill is really providing ‘amnesty’ or not. Making too much of this (vs. border security) simply reinforces the stereotype of Republicans as kneejerk “meanies.” And given the distance from 9/11, this gives the Democrats the popular vote again.

I think the unifying argument is strong border security and strong prosecution of the war (no surrender).

Perhaps the position of ‘no bill until border security is acceptable’ is the best approach for the country — which for me is a “No surrender” president. This sounds like Fred’s position, no?

Still-A-Neocon

stillaneocon on May 18, 2007 at 10:29 AM

Pelosi’s got a problem with her Blue Dogs, whose opposition to the bill given what it does for their party is mystifying

It’s only mystifying if you don’t understand what a Blue Dog Democrat is. There are tons of apolitical traditional Dems in the flyover states that think unfettered immigration is a disaster for the country, no matter which party it benefits politically. My wife is a registered Democrat and she even says she feels like we’re being “overrun.”

Dudley Smith on May 18, 2007 at 10:31 AM

The key to killing this IMO is to ask a simple question even the MSM can understand.

How does this affect Social Security.

If a Z visa holder pays into the system, then equal protection will demand they get at least the minimum payout… ie, not much in, lots out, for themselves and their spouses… even if they move back to Mexico. IMO will further bankrupt the system already being overtaxed by the babyboomers.

If they do NOT have to pay Soc Sec, then its unfair to the AMERICAN worker, because an employer, not having to pay the employer portion, will hire more Z and Temp workers, forcing salaries even lower…

Has the CBO put a number to the cost of this thing yet?

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 10:37 AM

That’s certainly a grim picture.

Esthier on May 18, 2007 at 10:39 AM

Figures obtained by 1200 WOAI news shows 303 illegals successfully registered to vote, and at least 41 cast ballots in various elections

I must be in a really negative mood today, this makes me think of our whole system breaking down into anarchy.

4shoes on May 18, 2007 at 10:41 AM

To insure that their base has cheap labor, the Republicans have given away the store.

Welcome to North Mexico.

pocomoco on May 18, 2007 at 10:46 AM

Pocomoco has it right in my view. Amnesty is the perfect big government, big business, big labor bill. Cheap labor and cheap votes. Fricking business won’t care if one Democratic House/Senate after another drive this nation down the road to socialism next week, if they can have cheaper labor costs this week.

Romeo raises a good point, what about Social Security?

doufree on May 18, 2007 at 10:50 AM

A few articles by Steve Sailer concerning Hispanic and elections that everyone should read:

First of all, Bush did not win even 44% of the Hispanic vote.

New Republican Majority?

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 10:54 AM

Then again, illegals already vote in most cities.

They register them literally by the bus load here in Florida.

bj1126 on May 18, 2007 at 10:56 AM

I love the part in the first Sailer article where he points out that if you believe Bush won 44% of the Hispanic vote nationally, you have to believe he won over 100% of the Hispanic vote in some areas!

Because the NEP reports Hispanic share of turnout for each state, you can estimate how many Hispanics voted in the other 10 Southern states: only 0.253 million. Bush still needs to have garnered 0.480 million votes to make his regional total. So his share of the Hispanic vote in the 10 hidden states was 190%.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 10:59 AM

As I said over at Ace’s, I have defended “Amnesty” type bills before because of my personal experience with Mexican immigrants, but after listening to Laura Ingram and several friends on the subject I am being swayed.

Here’s my question for you guys. What would work? What would you do if you were in charge of legislation to clean up this illegal alien mess? Please don’t say “deport them all.” That will NEVER happen in a million years. So give me something that is doable.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:08 AM

Not only because multiculturalism has supplanted labor as a core leftist principle, but because they’re about to climb on board a political gravy train here and they damned well know it.

Allah

Once again, AllahPundit exposes a keen insight into the political nether world that most of us miss. Who are you?

I think you have nailed it, bro.

Jaibones on May 18, 2007 at 11:08 AM

I left a comment at MKH’s place that the Republican loss last November would be viewed as a net positive for Bush, as he could now get a big old amnest bill passed without those pesky conservatives getting in his way. And now our Hispanderer in Chief’s moment has arrived. It’s just too bad that the it’s also shaping up to be the GOP’s Waterloo.

Physics Geek on May 18, 2007 at 11:09 AM

One more thing. No matter what the number was of Hispanics that voted for Bush, it was more than ever before. Are we saying that this demographic doesn’t matter???? Are we just going to give them away to the Democrats like we did the black vote?

That would be such a mistake.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:10 AM

Interesting, according to the Congressional Budget Office, I’m wrong.

This bill will actualy help Soc Sec… by adding workers to the rolls…

Seems counterintuitive to me… adding low wage workers, who pay in less, and take out more (its a regresive system) for what they pay, and add in spouses who will get minimum benefits without paying into the system… and add in those who will pay in and then go back to Mexico… I really don’t see how that works…

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 11:10 AM

Great summary AP! Now what do we do?

We are in a position of hoping that enugh Dems get nervous in the House to help kill this beast.

Valiant on May 18, 2007 at 11:11 AM

This is a disaster, Obviously we’re gonna become a permanant minority, and appartently the GOP is cool with that. This is like seeing a star collapse on itself…

Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 11:12 AM

Last thing. The amnesty provisions seem pretty strict to me. I mean if we do have this pushed down our throats, it could be a lot worse.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:13 AM

Jaibones on May 18, 2007 at 11:08 AM

To be fair, Ace has been calling that for ages.

Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 11:14 AM

Yet another sign that we’re on the road to socialist hell, just like our moral betters in Europe. So much for American exceptionalism.

Possible upside – Could this mean that McCain is finally done in the Republican primary? Or does this just mean that he’s earned himself the “Unity VP” slot on the Starship Obama ticket?

Enrique on May 18, 2007 at 11:15 AM

Sometimes we must give up our most prized possessions so that they will be preserved and not lost forever .. choosing the lesser of two evils is preferable to having no choice

Obviously this is a diabolical Bush-Rove plan to fortify the Dhimmicratic Party with members who will fight for the Homeland when the Jihad comes

DJ Dubya on May 18, 2007 at 11:15 AM

Rightwingsparkle, I’m not an expert on this, but I have listened and like Newt’s plan.

First, secure the border. Build a fence, even put the National Guard, with weapons to defend the border.

Second, go hard after companies who hire illegals. Penalties and jail time for the CEO’s.

Third, only when the flow has stopped, issue a guest-worker program, but have the credit card companies do it.

I like the guest-worker program that Canada has. Canada submits to Mexico the type of workers they need and the order is filled. Workers aren’t free to live wherever they wish. The best way to describe it is like a hotel. They are not allowed to bring families. When the job is done, they are taken back to Mexico.

Works for me.

moonsbreath on May 18, 2007 at 11:15 AM

Australia is looking better and better every day. Except for the language barrier and the critters that want to kill ya it is a very viable option at this time.
/checking immigration requirements

LakeRuins on May 18, 2007 at 11:15 AM

One more thing. No matter what the number was of Hispanics that voted for Bush, it was more than ever before. Are we saying that this demographic doesn’t matter???? Are we just going to give them away to the Democrats like we did the black vote?

Again, Bush did not win 44% of the Hispanic vote unless he won over 100% of the Hispanic vote in some areas. (And you believe that Kerry won by 3% points also!)

Demographics absolutely do matter — that is why you don’t alienate the largely white base while bringing in people who will never be majority Republican voters. In a desperate effort to win some part of the Hispanic vote, the Republican party wills shift increasingly leftward in policy and attempt to offer more government-subsidized goodies to Hispanics. They will be, for all intensive purposes, Democrats Lite. California Republicanism is the wave of the future. If you really think Schwarzenegger is the way the Republican Party and the nation should go, then you might say Bush is doing the right thing. If you think that is the completely wrong direction, then what Bush is doing is unforgivable.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:17 AM

BTW, Remember Michael Cheftoff, the Secretary of Homeland Security? He thinks Ted Kennedy is “awesome”.

“He’s awesome,” gushed Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff , as he left a news conference announcing the bipartisan agreement. “I’d say he was one of the critical leaders in putting together this deal.”

Commerce Secretary Carlos M. Gutierrez called it “a real privilege” to work with Kennedy, a Massachusetts Democrat and liberal stalwart who spends much of his time trying to thwart or undo Bush administration policies.

Who’s gonna break it to the dumb@asses that about 2/3 of the illegals will vote Democrat, and that’s why Kennedy did it?

amerpundit on May 18, 2007 at 11:17 AM

This bill is all flowery talk and no teeth for enforcement. The last few Border Patrol agents who actually tried to prevent undesireables from entering the country are cooling their heels in a jail cell. If I worked Border Patro damned if I would do anything.
Of course the same can be said for our military. Do what it takes to survive but for damn sure make sure they use their weapon only has a last resort.

LakeRuins on May 18, 2007 at 11:18 AM

Obviously this is a diabolical Bush-Rove plan to fortify the Dhimmicratic Party with members who will fight for the Homeland when the Jihad comes

Nonsense. Whites disproportionately take up combat positions in the military as reflected by casualty figures in Iraq.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:19 AM

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:08 AM

Whatever we do, first we have to seal the border tighter than Spandex on Rosie O.

If we do not, any amnesty will set off a chain reaction for the next group of illegals.

Valiant on May 18, 2007 at 11:19 AM

Heh. I just got a call from a Republican pollster asking me if I approve or disapprove of the job Geroge W. Bush is doing right now.

I, of course, said “Disapprove.” Take that, Chimpler.

Mark V. on May 18, 2007 at 11:20 AM

Yeah, copy that. But it’s a pretty nice summary, and I bash AP often enough that I needed some balance to argue against a future ban. One cannot be too careful…

Jaibones on May 18, 2007 at 11:20 AM

Remember Vietnam? Communism was flooding over the border there and we fought to keep it from spreading here.
Sound analogous to anything to any current situations?

All of that seems far away and unrelated now but if you look at Latin America and the amount of communism coming over our borders it might seem that we may have won the cold war but now we’re losing the hot peace.

Preface that with the word communism not striking fear in the hearts of our young people anymore and our Republican form of government has such a limited lifespan appearance to it.

It’s not hard to see how liberalism is killing us 24 hours a day.

Speakup on May 18, 2007 at 11:20 AM

Interesting, according to the Congressional Budget Office, I’m wrong.

This bill will actualy help Soc Sec… by adding workers to the rolls…

Seems counterintuitive to me… adding low wage workers, who pay in less, and take out more (its a regresive system) for what they pay, and add in spouses who will get minimum benefits without paying into the system… and add in those who will pay in and then go back to Mexico… I really don’t see how that works…

It should seem counterintuitive to you. It ain’t gonna happen. As low-income workers who generally get money refunds on tax day, they will be a huge burden on the system. I would like to see what rosily optimistic parameters the Congressional Budget Office is figuring this all out with.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:21 AM

So, I’ve been on the Visa list for over 7 years now. All I have to do, really, is walk across and pay a thousand dollars? I meet the English and Civics requirements already. I don’t have a crimminal record, and the only time I’ve been out of work is when I was in school.

It seems to me that this proposal has very little to do with actual immigration.

Krydor on May 18, 2007 at 11:22 AM

Last thing. The amnesty provisions seem pretty strict to me. I mean if we do have this pushed down our throats, it could be a lot worse.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:13 AM

Wait, What? PERMANANT MINORITY! How much worse do you get, you have several generations of Socialist rule! You can kiss the America you know and love goodbye, because its gone if amnesty passes, you do realize that, right?

Ah, whatever, what difference does it make, the GOP is worthless and at this stage no different than the Democrats, might as well switch parties and become a Nutrooter, and get while the gettin’s still good.

Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 11:23 AM

Republicans better wake up and realize that it’s better to go down fighting than with a whimper. At least if you fight you have a chance of surviving.

TheBigOldDog on May 18, 2007 at 11:26 AM

Interesting, according to the Congressional Budget Office, I’m wrong.

This bill will actualy help Soc Sec… by adding workers to the rolls…

That only works IF the illegals “come out of the shadows” and get enrolled. Think about this for a minute. You are making a pretty good wage and sending most of it home to momma and kids. If you come out you can put all of that in jeopardy. There will be far more gambling, and most likely correctly, that there will be no enforcement of the law since we don’t enforce the ones we have already and there are more areas of sanctuary springing up every day. It is really a win win for them. There will be reduced pressure to question their status in light of the legislation and they still won’t pay taxes while taking rich advantage of all that this country has to offer.
Until we begin to resemble Mexico in which case I guess they move further north.

LakeRuins on May 18, 2007 at 11:30 AM

It should seem counterintuitive to you. It ain’t gonna happen. As low-income workers who generally get money refunds on tax day, they will be a huge burden on the system. I would like to see what rosily optimistic parameters the Congressional Budget Office is figuring this all out with.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:21 AM

Doh… just found the problem, they only go out 10 years. The long term cost is not budgeted, ie, when THEY start to retire.

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 11:32 AM

I totally agree that the border must be secured first. I just don’t understand why more isn’t being done about this.

that is why you don’t alienate the largely white base while bringing in people who will never be majority Republican voters.

I just am not buying that. We give up on Hispanics just when they are voting more Republican??? Hispanics in general are hardworking family oriented religious folk. They abhor abortion and gay marriage and tend to always marry the mother of their children. Does this sound like a Democrat or a Republican to you?

We cannot just brush them off because we think they will always vote Democrat. We cannot.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:32 AM

Who, in their right mind, believes that the people who entered this country illegally, obtain counterfeit documents, and work under false identities are going to step up and abide the terms of this bill? The mentality is ‘just don’t get caught’ and will continue to be so.

Tru2my2 on May 18, 2007 at 11:32 AM

Here’s my question for you guys. What would work? What would you do if you were in charge of legislation to clean up this illegal alien mess? Please don’t say “deport them all.” That will NEVER happen in a million years. So give me something that is doable.

Build a fence. Toughen up work verification requirements to make it impossible for people are not citizens or do not have a valid reason to be in our country to obtain work.

Do whatever the Finns are doing to keep Russian workers out of their country in spite of a huge border and a large income gap.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:34 AM

I just am not buying that. We give up on Hispanics just when they are voting more Republican??? Hispanics in general are hardworking family oriented religious folk. They abhor abortion and gay marriage and tend to always marry the mother of their children. Does this sound like a Democrat or a Republican to you?


Hispanics have a nearly 50% illegitimacy rate (and rising).
How does that jibe with being “family oriented?”

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:35 AM

I just am not buying that. We give up on Hispanics just when they are voting more Republican??? Hispanics in general are hardworking family oriented religious folk. They abhor abortion and gay marriage and tend to always marry the mother of their children. Does this sound like a Democrat or a Republican to you?

I was once optimistic on this as well, but have grown more cynical after talking to relatives.

For some reason, the social/cultural conservatism of Hispanics doesn’t translate to a political conservatism. Perhaps this will change, but if it does – it will be slow.

Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 11:36 AM

Does this sound like a Democrat or a Republican to you?

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:32 AM

I’m thinking they’ll vote for the people who pushed for their amnesty – the Democrats. Polls have shown that a majority will vote Democrat.

amerpundit on May 18, 2007 at 11:37 AM

they’re about to climb on board a political gravy train here and they damned well know it. -AP

Exactly right. Leftists couldn’t win the political argument against an ascendant conservative movement so it’s time to bring in a whole new population espousing collectivist policies and just flood the system. When ink is put to this bill progressives will have a strong permanent grip on political power in our country.

Thanks President Bush, Sen.’s McCain, Kyle, Graham, et al. Right when we needed you you’ve betrayed conservativism and our country to the ideologues who will corrupt and invert every national institution that has made America unique in the world. The strength of our nation will bleed out until we’re just another version of the pathetic and vulnerable European nations.

Then while the West quivers we’ll invite brutal agression from Islamists in league with the new Sino-Russian alliance. Morning in America is past. Yes Esthier, a grim day is ahead.

The Ritz on May 18, 2007 at 11:38 AM

What would work?

US Army on the border. Its there to defend AMERICA!

Repeal the Possee Commiterus Act (sp)… the one that says the Military cannot enforce law… but only in regards to drugs and immigration.

National ID!! Tied to drivers license (Congress can under Interstate Commerce), voting act, immigration, Social Security, and Passports. This act will essentialy create one anyway, as it has a biometric Worker ID for Z workers… under equal protection that means either no IDs, or we all have to have them anyway. Bite the bullet… its not an infringment of rights, and will FIX the HUGE ID theft problem we have.

Enforce the laws already on the books about highering illegals… and once the IDs are in effect, put out a REWARD for every illegal that gets ratted out in the workplace, just like they do for software piracy.

Within 5 years, they would not be able to get a job…. they go home.

THEN create a guest worker program…

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 11:41 AM

What would you do if you were in charge of legislation to clean up this illegal alien mess? Please don’t say “deport them all.” That will NEVER happen in a million years. So give me something that is doable.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:08 AM

This is what I would do:

1. give them a fraud-proof identification card that is different from state licenses. Kind of a national i.d. card, but for immigrants ONLY. They would have to use this card to get ANY kind of service here in the U.S. – i.e., health care, to register for schools, etc. without the card, services denied.
2. They must pay into the social security system but not be able to reap any benefits at retirement age. this is the penalty part.
3. If an immigrant commits a crime, they are deported immediately.
4. Close the anchor baby loophole.

it’s a start.

pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 11:42 AM

Here’s my question for you guys. What would work? What would you do if you were in charge of legislation to clean up this illegal alien mess? Please don’t say “deport them all.” That will NEVER happen in a million years. So give me something that is doable.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:08 AM

The key to stopping illegal immigration is to kill at the root. You have to make it almost untenable for illegals, and this is how you do it:

1. Build the freaking fence. Better yet, since Red China controls the Panama Canal, why not jam them up, too, by building the “Transoceanic Canal” along our Southern border?

2. Tax all electronic money transfers to countries which insist on exporting their problems to the U.S., with a rate proportionate to their percentage of illegal aliens in the U.S. Start by taxing transfers to Mexico at 56%, and go down the list from there.

3. Disproportionately punitive penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens, to include jail time and seizure of assets. High burden of proof for employers who claim “they didn’t know”.

4. Allow those that are left to register (without the retarded touchback rule), and start their naturalization process AT THE BACK OF THE LINE, once they’ve paid a fine ($5-7K per individual, $25K max per family unit). All INS business to be conducted IN ENGLISH, no translation available, and final acceptance into the US subject to criminal background check, as well as mastery of English.

That’s my 2 cents, FWIW.

Kid from Brooklyn on May 18, 2007 at 11:43 AM

Here’s my question for you guys. What would work? What would you do if you were in charge of legislation to clean up this illegal alien mess? Please don’t say “deport them all.” That will NEVER happen in a million years. So give me something that is doable.

First, build a fence across the whole border, which is both financially and physically possible. Install surveillance across the parts of the fence, which we can’t physically control. Make sure BP has helicopters, allowing them to apprehend illegals crossing the border, before they get away. Make an easy hotline for ranchers to call, if they see people illegally crossing.

Next, set major financial, and if necessary criminal, penalties against companies who knowingly hire people illegally. Make it law that you must check the status of employees, before hiring. If you find they’re illegally, you are required to contact ICE, just as if you found out that your employee was on the FBI’s Most Wanted.

Get rid of the anchor baby policy.

Make it illegal to rent, or mortgage, a residence to illegal aliens. Banks can’t loan money to illegals, or grant credit cards to them. Again, turn them in if you find out they’re here illegally.

Require legal status checks for the public school system.

Kick up the number of immigration raids.

I could go on.

amerpundit on May 18, 2007 at 11:47 AM

Sorry. Second link was supposed to go HERE.

Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 11:48 AM

I’ve got an easy plan for immegration:

$100,000 fines (per illegal employee)to any compony employing illegals.

If this were enforced (Ha!) noone would hire illegals and most (at least some) would head back to Me-he-co.

omnipotent on May 18, 2007 at 11:50 AM

Please don’t say “deport them all.” That will NEVER happen in a million years. So give me something that is doable.

There is no need to deport them all. If you take away the free education, the free medical, the free food stamps, and stop businesses from hiring them … they all go home voluntarily, and they stop coming. It’s really not that tough.

Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 11:51 AM

Family oriented?! Tell that to the countless teenage hispanic females who are left behind, more often than not, pregnant and/or with toddlers to raise with no father. Not to mention the mothers who then leave their own children behind to cross the border – illegally.
I live in an area where hispanic women are the majority of childcare/nanny/housekeepers to the affluent. 9 out of 10 have one or more children they have left behind.

Tru2my2 on May 18, 2007 at 11:53 AM

Articles germane to this analysis:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_4_hispanic_family_values.html
http://www.vdare.com/awall/mexicans.htm

A couple of my favorite Hot Air comments on this topic appeared on this thread:

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/09/breaking-shell-shocked-allen-to-concede-at-3-pm/#comments

scroll to:

Redhead Infidel on November 9, 2006 at 12:49 PM
Kid from Brooklyn on November 9, 2006 at 2:08 PM (who expanded on his list of solutions upthread, I see)

RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 11:53 AM

Hispanics have a nearly 50% illegitimacy rate (and rising). How does that jibe with being “family oriented?”

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:35 AM

About as family oriented as the white race. From black to white to everything in between we have increased our out of birth wedlock to insane levels. The white statistic is lower partly because white women have many more abortions.

Social ills aside, Hispanics ARE family oriented.

Just because polls show Hispanics will vote Democrat, we give up on them???? No. no. no. Mexicans come to this country with very little education and no idea of the political process. One of the reasons they come here is so they and their children can have a quality education. We have as much of a chance to educate them on public policy and political process as the Democrats do, AS LONG AS WE HAVE THE WILL AND DESIRE TO DO SO.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:55 AM

How about simply enacting a “National Employment Card” with a computer verification system for authentication? An employer can check the database with the number on the card and see if the name, birth date, and the PICTURE in the computer database match those of the card. Furthermore, require that an employer, upon a worker quitting or being fired from a job, notify the government agency of this. If a particular number is getting a lot of hits and there is no indication a worker has been terminated, that would be a sign of potential fraud to be investigated by ICE. Create severe fines and possible jail time for any employer who does not authenticate the worker.

Legislate the the card will only be used for purposes of obtaining employment. Legislate that no other institution, only an employer, may require the card for any reason. Do not tie the card to a person’s social security number. A SS number should no longer be required for employment purposes. If the system works, and some people still want a guest worker program (which I think is totally unnecessary, but still….), then similar cards that are valid only on a temporary basis can be issued.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 11:56 AM

I live in an area where hispanic women are the majority of childcare/nanny/housekeepers to the affluent. 9 out of 10 have one or more children they have left behind.

Tru2my2 on May 18, 2007 at 11:53 AM

Let me get this straight. You are judging these women as being unfit mothers because they do backbreaking work at low pay to survive and send money to take care of their family????

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:59 AM

it’s a start.

pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 11:42 AM

But why would they take those cards when they’ve already got forged social security cards?

Esthier on May 18, 2007 at 12:00 PM

We have as much of a chance to educate them on public policy and political process as the Democrats do, AS LONG AS WE HAVE THE WILL AND DESIRE TO DO SO.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:55 AM

Yeah, with the education system we have control over…Huh?

Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 12:00 PM

About as family oriented as the white race. From black to white to everything in between we have increased our out of birth wedlock to insane levels. The white statistic is lower partly because white women have many more abortions.

The white illegitimacy is not anywhere near the Hispanic illegitimacy rate and is not increasingly nearly as fast either. In the course of only one year (2002-2003) the Hispanic illegitimacy rate jumped 5%. The rate for blacks and whites did not jump. Unless there has been a reversal, the rate among Hispanics may very well exceed 50% currently.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 12:01 PM

It is a myth that hispanics are conservative or gel with conservative values. Some do, but not the majority. Also, we are seeing the children of mexican immigrants doing worse than their parents, dropping out of school, joining gangs, high rate of illegitimate births etc. I believe this is due to the entitlement mentality they now have, thanks to bills like this.

bmac on May 18, 2007 at 12:07 PM

We have as much of a chance to educate them on public policy and political process as the Democrats do, AS LONG AS WE HAVE THE WILL AND DESIRE TO DO SO.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:55 AM

Is THIS the “education” you’re talking about?

Yeah. No problem.

Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 12:07 PM

If you are here illegally, yet

1) never break (another) law,
2) knock off the professional victimhood,

I can tolerate you.

You don’t need to identify/deport 20 million people. Law enforcement can identify them one at a time. I’ll throw this policy suggestion out so wiser folks than me can shoot holes in it: Any time law enforcement makes contact with illegal aliens, for ANY infraction, these are the ones that need to be deported.

RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 12:10 PM

Rightwingsparkle – in a word, Yes.
A “fit” mother does not leave her own children for the sake of money.
I hold this standard to those women who hire these nannies also.
Don’t have ‘em, if you can’t raise ‘em.

Tru2my2 on May 18, 2007 at 12:11 PM

Good post Allah

Where are enforcement provisions? What happens when one violates probation?

doginblack on May 18, 2007 at 12:14 PM

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:55 AM

It may take out-Democratting the Democrats to reverse these trends, though. Distasteful as it sounds, I think conservative strategists need to look at ways to unravel the grievance group coalition that passes for a Democrat party these days. First of all, perhaps, by bringing back the older, white “liberals” (now centrists) as embodied by Lou Dobbs. Next, you show the new Latinos what Democrat support actually entails, and the long-term societal costs of said support. Believe me, Jacinto from Jalisco might be thankful to the Dems for amnesty, but he’s gonna crap a brick when his daughters come back from school knowing how to put a condom on a cucumber. Take a page from their playbook….divide and conquer.

Kid from Brooklyn on May 18, 2007 at 12:15 PM

RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 11:53 AM

More like refreshed. I’m not as enthusiastic about a Contract Redux in ‘08 as I was back then.

Kid from Brooklyn on May 18, 2007 at 12:17 PM

A local take from an illegal alien:

The 31-year-old welder shook his head as he read the news Thursday of proposed immigration reforms that could affect him and the future of his wife and child still in southwest Mexico.

He clicked a mouse and read the MSNBC.com story — translated into Spanish — on a computer at the South Park community information center. His eyes stopped when he saw he would have to pay $5,000 under the proposal to buy a path to citizenship.

“Mucho, mucho dinero,” he said, asking that his name be withheld because he’s undocumented and fears losing his job. Through a translator, he added: “I don’t know what I would do. I don’t have the money.”

Two questions:

(1) Since when is welding a job Americans won’t do?

(2) Since when is welding such a poorly paying job that someone cannot manage to save up $5,000 over the course of a year or so?

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 12:22 PM

But why would they take those cards when they’ve already got forged social security cards?

Esthier on May 18, 2007 at 12:00 PM

if they can’t get any services (which they are getting now anyway, without any accountability) they might consider the card.

pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 12:23 PM

How does this fix tax fraud, identity theft, overstaying your Visa, or make things easier for the American taxpayer?

One of our major problems today is that although the government has a lot of information to help in discovering Crime, they still can’t share it. We need to know who is here legaly! We need to know if they have a suspended drivers license! We need to know if theres a warrant out for their arrest! We need to know if they are stealing someones ID!

IMO the American people would NOT really freak out over a National ID and Drivers license system… and it sure would help our security.

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 12:25 PM

If you are here illegally, yet

1) never break (another) law,
2) knock off the professional victimhood,

I can tolerate you.

RushBaby

How many could you tolerate? A billion?

Shouldn’t caucasian people be able to maintain majorities in the countries they inhabit such as we’d expect all countries with hispanic, black or oriental majorities to do or should caucasians allow themselves to become minority scapegoats to be kicked around in every country on earth?

Perchant on May 18, 2007 at 12:25 PM

moonsbreath, romeo, and others,

I agree wholeheartedly with building the fence. And with placing military personel along it to patrol. How much ground can a person cover, working in shifts? 1/4 mile? I have no idea..make it work. Give them guns. Make it happen. Secure the border at all cost.

Also, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, as an illiegal alien, someone would step up and apply for this program. /sarcasm on “Oh, sure I’ll pay this huge fine..let you track me and my family from now on” /sarcasm off They are living here for practically free, draining our social programs. Why would they want to pay for them and in the meantime have to return home for certain periods? pfft!

I would be willing to bet that the majority do not see themselves on the path to becoming citizens of this country. They are here to make money. The majority do not care about voting, becoming “American” or assimilating into the US. They only want to either earn money to send home to their families, or to bring their families here to make more money. Their lives suck wherever they are from but their mindset is still that they are “Mexican” or “Guatemalan” or whatever. Just my opinion from what I have seen of the communities around where I live, and from the parades they hold where they fly their flags next to the upside down US flag.

serpentineshel on May 18, 2007 at 12:26 PM

Looks like I’m going to have to pay a visit to Feinstein’s district office at lunch.

PRCalDude on May 18, 2007 at 12:28 PM

Since when is welding a job Americans won’t do?

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 12:22 PM

Well, if you believe Bill Gates … Americans won’t even take high paying jobs with Microsoft, or … that we somehow don’t have any qualified workers.

Several U.S. tech companies have recently said they have hundreds of unfilled jobs because they can’t find qualified workers.

Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 12:29 PM

Just to make it perfectly clear, before I get attacked … I don’t believe the Bill Gates claim. Americans can be found to do just about ANY job … if the pay is legal and fair.

Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 12:31 PM

Shouldn’t caucasian people be able to maintain majorities in the countries they inhabit such as we’d expect all countries with hispanic, black or oriental majorities to do or should caucasians allow themselves to become minority scapegoats to be kicked around in every country on earth?

Perchant on May 18, 2007 at 12:25 PM

You think this is about being caucasian? CAUCASION? And just how caucasian do we have to be in order to qualify for your “majority”?

RushBaby on May 18, 2007 at 12:33 PM

http://www.raleighchronicle.com/2007051707.html

OUCH!!!

Gregor on May 18, 2007 at 12:29 PM

Uh… thats interesting… I’m a LONG time programer, who has put in his resume with Microsoft on multiple occasions… and never gotten an interview…

I currently know at least 20 programers here in Denver who are out of work… and have been for so long they no longer get unemployment (so they don’t count on the rolls)…

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 12:34 PM

Just to make it perfectly clear, before I get attacked … I don’t believe the Bill Gates claim. Americans can be found to do just about ANY job … if the pay is legal and fair.

No need to qualify that, Gregor. I know all about Bill “H1-B” Gates.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 12:36 PM

Shouldn’t caucasian people be able to maintain majorities in the countries they inhabit such as we’d expect all countries with hispanic, black or oriental majorities to do or should caucasians allow themselves to become minority scapegoats to be kicked around in every country on earth?
Perchant on May 18, 2007 at 12:25 PM

Depends on whether you believe America is defined by race or shared ideals. Making this a racial argument rather than a cultural one is a bad idea, IMHO.

One of the many things that bothers me about this bill is that it makes no attempt to encourage or mandate some sort of assimilation program.

Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 12:36 PM

This NPR Report contradicts some of your statements (specifically unskilled immigrants taking the jobs of unskilled Americans). It seems the bill is biased to allow skilled and educated people into the country over unskilled people to attempt to help the economy (which in my mind is a contradiction seeing as how the unskilled immigrants help the economy far more than the skilled ones). Also the bill has certain provisions for agricultural jobs, specifically in California, where we rely on these immigrant workers to keep the business going. And to assume that this bill has complete Democratic support is a bit off-key (even the person they interviewed admitted that) considering that if and when the President signs this bill a permanent second-class of workers will be created allowing for employees to have a stranglehold on them, knowing that they can’t do better and have to stay working if they want to stay in America.

And onto the racial accusations by conservatives… The thing that conservatives do that I don’t even think they realize they’re doing is pretending like minorities are so easily fooled by “liberals” into voting for them and that they can’t make their own decisions. You know, that might be part of the reason why these same minorities don’t want to be part of your party. Maybe when conservatives start accepting that minorities can make their own political decisions they might start getting a more diverse base.

P.S. And to pretend like this is simply a Democratic thing is ignorant. It’s similar to pretending that only Democrats want us out of Iraq. This bill passed 80-19 in the Senate (wow, Republicans voted for it) and guess what–there’s a Republican President, every single bill that passes the House and Senate is available for rejection via a Republican, if it doesn’t get rejected don’t pretend like it was solely the Democrats fault.

Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 12:41 PM

P.S. And to pretend like this is simply a Democratic thing is ignorant.

It’s amazing to think of how many posts you must have ignored to be able to write that. Many of us are angry at the Republicans and the president for this, not the Democrats.

Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 12:45 PM

One more thing. No matter what the number was of Hispanics that voted for Bush, it was more than ever before. Are we saying that this demographic doesn’t matter???? Are we just going to give them away to the Democrats like we did the black vote?

That would be such a mistake.

Rightwingsparkle on May 18, 2007 at 11:10 AM

Pandering to Hispanics by giving away the store on illegal immigration would be a much bigger mistake, one that transcends political considerations.

To give amnesty is to yield to the soft bigotry of low expectations.

thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 12:45 PM

This makes me sick. The Reps, as usual, are showing no spine and playing right into the Dems’ hands.

So much for representative government.

Jodella on May 18, 2007 at 12:47 PM

It is very very simple….SECURE THE BORDER,
Even simpler ..realizing that They do NOT want to SECURE the border….Bush long ago abdicated that responsibilty INTENTIONALLY….He is the primary EVILDOER in this country

Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 12:47 PM

This NPR Report contradicts some of your statements (specifically unskilled immigrants taking the jobs of unskilled Americans). It seems the bill is biased to allow skilled and educated people into the country over unskilled people to attempt to help the economy (which in my mind is a contradiction seeing as how the unskilled immigrants help the economy far more than the skilled ones).

It favors skills to some extent. It sounds like, given a choice between applicants, the skilled will be preferred over the unskilled. However, what percentage of people will be lining up to get in who possess no skills? If only a meager percentage of skilled immigrants are applying, then it may hardly matter.

tommy1 on May 18, 2007 at 12:47 PM

Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 12:41 PM

Perhaps some people are (whether intentionally or not) saying that the new Hispanic citizens will be ‘fooled’ into voting for Democrats. However, I think most people are saying that the majority of the unskilled laborers from Latin America tend to have socialist leanings (that is why Latin American countries tend to have socialist governments). So, without any tricking being necessary, it is much more likely that these new socialist leaning citizens will vote for the socialist leaning party – the Democrats (although, both parties will end up moving further towards socialism as American socialism can’t compare with Latin American socialism yet). I don’t claim it’s because they are being fooled at all, but, rather, that they will be voting their consciouses. The question then becomes – Is it a good idea to bring in a large population of people that have different political ideals than the current majority of the population of a country? It’s one thing if the country goes socialist on it’s own over the years…seems like another thing entirely if a new perspective is imported into the county from outside.

JadeNYU on May 18, 2007 at 12:50 PM

AP only you can bring so many conflicting ideas succinctly together, and create a medium for thoughtful considerations, from all sides. I doubt any politician in Wash. is this informed and this capable.

instead of relying on the traditional Republicans-versus-blacks paradigm is because (a) they’ve already got 90+% of the black vote, so returns are diminishing, and (b) with immigration front and center after 9/11, there’s a whole new minority group affected by key policies that they can demagogue the hell out of for votes. Hence the new, expansive “brown person” formulation

There also is a (c) option – the fact that the “brown persons” are now the majority minority and the blacks, who already vote liberal, are taken for granted, with no shame. They are the ones who should wake up to this reality, since many of them will also not have jobs, or have poor paying once.

Another spokesperson for the “blue dogs” option suggested could be the rabid reconquista Fabian Núñez, Speaker of the Calif. State Assembly.

Yesterday he participated in an LA ‘vigil’ where he shouted “I’m with you (the illegals) and against the LAPD”. This is a guy who’s supposed to represent all the people. It’s all just numbers for current and future votes.

The illegals and their rabid PR dogs don’t like this bill either. They want Amnesty+, or Amnesty Advantage. This is all too long and too hard, and not simple enough, like “you will all become citizens after the signatures happen, unconditionally”. That’s why Pelosi will have her hands full. From a PR standpoint the haggling will still help the libs, as they’ll come out as the saviours or the ones who tried to be the saviours.

Those who don’t see this as amnesty are blind. I’d appreciate if all politicians would honestly call it an amnesty and then go from there. To blatantly treat us all as fools is beyond being insulted. It is an Amnesty for the illegals and it is an Amnesty for the employers. Basta.

Aside from the illegals having voted already, and the prisoners voting in Florida soon, here’s a headache-provoking thought, to add more petroleum to fire – Santa Fe possibly to recruit Mexican nationals.

Someone should capture that picture on top of Drudge where Kennedy, Graham and Martinez look like they’re in a drunk stupor of illegal amnesty happiness.

Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 12:50 PM

’ve got an easy plan for immegration:

$100,000 fines (per illegal employee)to any compony employing illegals.

If this were enforced (Ha!) noone would hire illegals and most (at least some) would head back to Me-he-co.

omnipotent on May 18, 2007 at 11:50 AM

I believe the 1986 amnesty had a $75,000 fine. Lot of good that did.

DieselDude on May 18, 2007 at 12:51 PM

Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 12:41 PM

Clueless… if you had bothered to read most of the posts, we are as angry at the Republican sell out as we are at the Dems. I personaly have reregistered to what I have been the vast majority of my adult life… unaffiliated (as are about a third of the registered voters in America).

As to the “point” system, that is for future greencards, not for the temporary worker program (if I read it correctly). It has NOTHING to do with the Z visas.

As to the “minority” vote question? Pretty simple… look at the statistics. The “Black” vote is a real thing… the Hispanic vote is as well. Its driven IMO by the internal “leaders” of those groups… La Raza… Al Sharpton… and by the LIBERAL idea of group identity. Dems, and some Repubs pander to them as GROUPS, and don’t speak to them as individuals. They therefore derive MORE power through their Racial identity… which they will vote to hold onto.

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 12:51 PM

You have to hit them where it hurts.

How about on July 4th of this year, change your federal withholding to the maximum number of exemptions you can without showing proof of necessity. I think it’s 14. Then put that money in the bank and watch the federal government come to a screeching halt.

It would make the May 1st BS look like a picnic.

DieselDude on May 18, 2007 at 12:56 PM

Dieseldue,,,I heard that before and I am all for it!

Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 12:58 PM

You have to hit them where it hurts.

How about on July 4th of this year, change your federal withholding to the maximum number of exemptions you can without showing proof of necessity. I think it’s 14. Then put that money in the bank and watch the federal government come to a screeching halt.

It would make the May 1st BS look like a picnic.

DieselDude on May 18, 2007 at 12:56 PM

Wow, now that’s a good idea for civil disobedience.

I’m concerned how it might affect the troops overseas, but otherwise it’s an idea worth considering. Sort of a modern day Boston Tea Party.

thirteen28 on May 18, 2007 at 1:00 PM

Leave it to the politicians to make this as complicated as only they can. Immigration “reform” is going to have as many loopholes as our tax code and will be so confusing to the average american that it will take a PhD in rocket science to sort it all out. as far as I’m concerned, all of them need to be thrown out of office. I’m done with politics today. it’s making my head hurt.

pullingmyhairout on May 18, 2007 at 1:00 PM

Its driven IMO by the internal “leaders” of those groups… La Raza… Al Sharpton… and by the LIBERAL idea of group identity. Dems, and some Repubs pander to them as GROUPS, and don’t speak to them as individuals. They therefore derive MORE power through their Racial identity… which they will vote to hold onto.

Romeo13 on May 18, 2007 at 12:51 PM

You still don’t think these minorities look at the political situation (much like white people do) and make there own decisions? You think they’ve somehow been manipulated into agreeing with liberals? There might be your problem. It isn’t about racial identity, it’s simply about a majority of black people (and Hispanic people) agreeing with the Democrats position and voting for them.

Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 1:05 PM

It isn’t about racial identity, it’s simply about a majority of black people (and Hispanic people) agreeing with the Democrats position and voting for them.
Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 1:05 PM

So what do you believe accounts for the vastly disproportionate amount of support for Democrats among minority groups?

Why are African-American conservatives called “uncle toms” and worse?

Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:06 PM

So what do you believe accounts for the vastly disproportionate amount of support for Democrats among minority groups?

Slublog on May 18, 2007 at 1:06 PM

Probably two main reasons: 1) Most blacks simply agree with Democrats (if you’re asking why they agree I think it’s because they looked at the issues and made a choice–you ask most blacks what political positions they agree with and most of them will be “liberal” positions) 2) Retaliation against the conservative movement (Civil Rights in particular, people aren’t going to forget that Barry Goldwater was against the Civil Rights Act).

Nonfactor on May 18, 2007 at 1:12 PM

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