Breaking: Bush, Senate leaders reach immigration agreement; Update: “I don’t care how you try to spin it, this is amnesty”; Update: Illegals slam bill as too onerous
posted at 1:15 pm on May 17, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Fox News and MSNBC are reporting that the hour of reckoning is at hand. Stand by for details, although I think we already know most of them.
Update: “Quick legal status.”
A bipartisan group of senators reached agreement with the White House Thursday on an immigration overhaul to grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border against new ones…
It set the stage for what promises to be a bruising battle next week in the Senate on one of Bush’s top non-war priorities.
The group of lawmakers had been haggling over the terms of agreement for weeks were reviewing language negotiated Wednesday night in efforts to nail down a deal. Among the final sticking points was a stubborn dispute over how much family ties count toward green cards under a new “point system.” The plan prioritizes advanced skills and education levels for future immigrants.
Update: The formal announcement is at 1:30. Reuters has a few of the basics already; it looks like the GOP won the battle over whether illegals can bring extended family with them.
The legislation would create a temporary worker program that would require laborers to return home after a period of time. Tough border security and workplace enforcement measures would go into place before the temporary worker program, congressional aides said.
The proposal would limit family-based migration to immediate family members and establish a merit-based system by which future migrants could earn points for skills, education, understanding of English and family ties.
Update: Michelle is posting reaction and points to a WashTimes report from last night that claimed Bush was ready to cave on safeguards that would prevent fraud in the guest-worker program. She also links to a point by point rebuttal of the GOP talking points at Lone Wacko.
Update: Quote of the day:
Senator Jim DeMint, Republican of South Carolina, said he had doubts about this approach, but said Congress had to do something because his constituents were telling him that “they feel they are being overrun with uncontrolled immigration.”
The irony is that most Republicans would accept a compromise on the back half of the equation, even if it meant legalizing large numbers of illegals who are already here, if the party was serious about plugging the leaks in the border. Show us a sustained, good faith effort to secure it and then we can deal charitably with the “undocumented.” Anyone think that’s in the offing?
Update: WaPo has the major details. 400,000 “guest workers” a year. And unless they’ve made an oversight, the English-language requirement for the “Z visa” that would grant permanent legal status has been dropped: “each Z Visa itself would be renewable indefinitely, as long as the holder passes a criminal background check, remains fully employed and pays a $5,000 fine, plus a paperwork-processing fee.”
Update: Near as I can tell (nitty gritty details being suspiciously hard to come by in news reports on immigration), there are two basic innovations to the bill: replacing family connections with a “points system” that emphasizes job skills and education as the key criteria for a green card — which seems odd given the argument about needing low-skilled workers to do the jobs Americans won’t do — and the requirement that the “Z visa” program not be triggered until certain measures have been taken to enforce the border. Question per Lone Wacko: Does that mean actual, concrete improvements in border security or merely passing laws and allocating funds for improvements that are never going to be made, like that nifty border fence they passed last year?
We had a Republican Congress and a Republican White House for six years. Six years, and it’s come to this.
Update: Bush applauds. And I take it back — here’s the line of the day:
“This is what my 9th grade teacher told me government is all about and I finally got to experience it,” said Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.).
Update: The Counterterrorism Blog says it’s a national security disaster:
In short order, the system will be overwhelmed. Whatever minimal fraud detection and prevention safeguards might be erected won’t last long in the face of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of applications and petitions to be adjudicated. What that means is the information provided on those applications and petitions, and whatever supporting documents they may have (if any), will essentially be taken at face value. Whatever the applicant alien tells the adjudicator will essentially be taken at face value. There will be little time or process available to verify anything, perhaps beyond running the applicant’s name through a standard battery of computer databases (and, even that may become so time consuming some will slip through the cracks).
Update: Who among the GOP candidates reaps the whirlwind on this? It’s got to be McCain, right?
Expect Rudy to pronounce himself “troubled” by the deal.
Update: Jim DeMint: “I don’t care how you try to spin it, this is amnesty.”
Update: Tancredo goes right after McCain:
“Senator McCain and his allies seem to think that they can dupe the American public into accepting a blanket amnesty if they just call it ‘comprehensive’ or ‘earned legalization’ or ‘regularization.’ Unfortunately for them, however, the American people know amnesty when they see it,” said Tancredo. “The President is so desperate for a legacy and a domestic policy win that he is willing to sell out the American people and our national security.”
“If Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy spent as much time working on improving border security as they did poll testing creative euphemisms for amnesty, America would be a much safer place,” quipped Tancredo.
Update: Rich Lowry thinks the “triggers” are a scam from the word go, with amnesty granted immediately upon passage of the bill and the “Z visas,” which are keed to the enforcement triggers, only relevant insofar as they allow the bearer to travel. But even if Lowry’s wrong, what happens to the illegals who are here while the feds are working towards the triggers? Let’s say they get bogged down and can’t get them done for another decade. What’s the status of the “undocumented” during that interim period?
Update: Illegal aliens don’t like the bill either, a claim which will doubtless be trumpeted by proponents to “prove” that it’s a fair compromise. Actually, what it proves is that even the amnesty side of it is crap that won’t achieve what it means to.
The sub-moronic “touchback” provision comes in for special abuse:
David Guerra wants to be legal, but he says the path to citizenship offered by the Senate on Thursday would be too risky and too expensive, and could end up driving him deeper into the shadows…
“If I go home, who is going to guarantee that I’ll be let back in?” said the 44-year-old who lays bricks, clears weeds and does landscaping…
“Where would I find $5,000? In two years, I don’t get $5,000,” said Daniel Carrillo Maldonado, an illegal immigrant who was looking for construction work outside a Home Depot in Phoenix…
Amy Ndour, a 23-year-old illegal immigrant from Senegal who lives in New York, said she would be willing to pay the $5,000 fine, but not return home because her family there depends on what she earns as a hair braider.
“I’m helping myself” here, she said. “I’m helping people there too.”…
Many illegal immigrants said they had little incentive to apply for residency because the process was long and did not offer much hope of bringing their families.
“If I’ll never be able to bring my family, why should I apply?” said Jose Monson, a 33-year-old illegal immigrant from Guatemala who has lived in Los Angeles for four years. “I prefer to just stay here illegally.”
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Giuliani responded, too, saying his top, and first, priority is securing the border.
amerpundit on May 17, 2007 at 10:33 PM
Great idea! I’ll do the same.
IrishEi on May 17, 2007 at 10:35 PM
I haven’t been flamed in a couple of days so what the heck ;)I think the legislation is about as good as is going to be written. Forget about it for the first four years of another administration of either party which will pander unabashedly without really doing anything.
What other plans are on the table that are really viable in how to address the illegal immigration issue? I haven’t seen any except for the more extreme “Johnny get your gun” type sentiments.
Seriously, how can 12 million people be found and locked up, much less thrown out of the country? Doesn’t it make more sense to know who is inside our country?
I think what has to be done and soon is to get the national ID card program up and running. That will help a lot in holding employers, apartment managers, etc. to upholding existing laws. Combined with the laws the Republicans insisted be enforced this may begin to stem the tide.
As to the end of our country as we know it I’d offer the following link for consideration:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/04/post_20.html
It may surprise some at just how many Hispanics want to integrate into society, not extend the Mexican border. The third generation kids of these families speak English as the primary language. Over a hundred years ago we had a massive influx of immigrants who have contributed greatly to our country. I think the current legislation offers the best hope of continuing to encourage the integration of the immigrants. Enforcing the existing laws must be done.
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 10:37 PM
Bradky, I don’t disagree with most of what you wrote. It’s your last statement which matters. The current ones are not enforced, and the ones in the 700-page proposed one will be ignored too. I don’t think the liberals will agree to the ID card you refer to either. It’s all talk, money and in the end nothing will be enforced, least of which the border issue, which is most important, and the employer checks.
Then, I know hundreds of qualified programmers who’d have to sell their talents for peanuts, they’re looking for jobs endlessly, living apart for months at a time from their families. This new bill has a huge focus on “educated” especially Bachelor+ granting of permanent or worker status, at times of up to 180,000 a year, much at the cost of qualified Americans.
Not flaming, just communicating. Regards,
Entelechy on May 17, 2007 at 10:49 PM
I completely agree. I was infuriated by the marches last year. (Although the lack of traffic was fabulous.) I can’t stand VillaReconquista. Rest assured I didn’t vote him. All he does is mugs for cameras. I’m still waiting for him to come clean my toilet.
wherestherum on May 17, 2007 at 10:51 PM
I think one of the huge problems about this whole debate is that the race card is always played. The activists push people to link illegal alien with Hispanic so they can call opponents racist. When will people stop being afraid of being called racist when the word is bandied about so often as to be meaningless?
Isn’t it racist then, by their own definition, to discriminate anyone from coming here at all?
wherestherum on May 17, 2007 at 10:56 PM
Ya know? If it will cost the US 2.5 TRILLION dollars for this amnesty bill, I promise you… if you give me 20% of that money I can and will find 90% to 95% of the 12 million illegal aliens and send them home. PERIOD!
shooter on May 17, 2007 at 11:00 PM
I’d have to say that if the ID card is a no go, then yes this bill won’t fix much. The ID card needs to be sold as (a) only containing verification of one’s citizen/alien status (b) driver license info, and (c) a number not associated with social security. This will dilute some of the privacy concerns and protect financial, credit and health information. The liberals will object on the privacy issue and the fringe right will bring up the “mark of the devil” and Revelations passages as objections.
I’m in IT and know what you mean about the programmers. That H1B (used to be called that) has caused a lot of heartache. Being in the defense contracting world has helped me not feel the sting like some are. When I first entered the work force before Disco was popular a person changed careers a couple of times in their life. Now days it is around 3 years. Awfully hard to keep up with that many changes.
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:01 PM
One at a time?
amerpundit on May 17, 2007 at 11:03 PM
There are already people declaring sanctuary cities and the like. One at a time is kind of what is going on now. I just asked what an alternative plan might look like.
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Good point.
IrishEi on May 17, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Coming down hard on employers of illegals would dry up their source of income and many would leave of their own accord.
It would be a start. And a better one than that which is being shoved down our throats now.
IrishEi on May 17, 2007 at 11:10 PM
If anyone thinks this is anything but anarchy unleashed you are a fool! Katrina was just a peek at what this country will become…..Nowhere Man Bush who by the way is not doing any of his jobs …abdicated the border and sovreigntry and just handed over his war to a WAR czar..Does this mean he will be golfing every day????
That moron “talking Points” also known as OReilly says he will support it even though he admits it will change the country drastically because he says they won’t give us a better bill…(wish we had a better BILL on Fo too! ) Hannity and Colmes seemed to ignore it –No biggie to them…Joe Scarborough gets it and doesn’t like it and Pat Buchanon , the man who saw this coming before anybody is probably sick at heart to see his country destroyed even with all his efforts…..
Mellen on May 17, 2007 at 11:16 PM
strong>
Mellen on May 17, 2007 at 11:17 PM
If I was an illegal, I wouldn’t like it either, that’s $5,000 less to send back to Mexico.
“Free” healthcare
“Free” school and Head Start
“Free” Republocrat assistance programs.
The whole thing stinks of the DC two-step.
Amnesty now, enforcement later = Tax increase now, spending cuts later. Pinky swear!
Valiant on May 17, 2007 at 11:17 PM
It did occur to me recently that maybe mourning the loss of a country that truly does NOT represent it’s own people isn’t a great country after all? Maybe we have all been operating under a delusion and maybe , maybe , the truth is even more painful…That this is “no great loss
Mellen on May 17, 2007 at 11:18 PM
We don’t have to round them up and send them home. They’ll leave the moment the well goes dry. Cut the welfare off and put some serious pressure on their employers. Light/cockroach.
I think what stings the most is the lack of provision that they learn English. We have no hope or expectation that we can maintain a unified society if we can’t even communicate with one another.
TexasDan on May 17, 2007 at 11:18 PM
Deport them all and let bradky and his bleeding hearts ilk take care of them.
I emailed Tancredo and told him if my two top choices refuse to speak out agaisnt this bill, he will get my vote for the nomination.
I emailed my top two and told them I could not in good conscience support a candidate that supports this bill.
csdeven on May 17, 2007 at 11:21 PM
The link I put up a few posts back shows that by the third generation English is the primary language. Not bad by most standards. How could the provision really be written to require it much less enforce it?
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:22 PM
Pedestrian-
NAFTA was supposed to help everyone; It didn’t.
Duncan Hunter makes some good points with regard to the balance of fairness in trade dealings between China and the US; look to that for part of the problem. We gave them weapons technology thanks to Herr Bill, and we got… some cheap plastic toys, I think it was.
Unions are an issue in our country; our auto industry is hit and Boeing has been hit in the past.
Lastly, as someone pointed out, we’re all too lazy to cut our grass, so that’s why we’re importing a worker class. How did that suddenly turn into trying to allow relatives in based on their skill set? We have millions still unemployed here and the CBO says that illegals have driven overall unskilled worker wages down. How is this unskilled or somewhat skilled or unskilled with a skilled brother going to help a ‘boom’? Because you think the labour will be ‘cheap’?
After the Dems get done levying taxes on us to pay for the social programmes that the illegal immigrant worker and the other 5 members of his family need to survive, you’re not going to have money to buy jack, never mind sh1t.
So, to sum up, we’ll pretty much look like China today in your scenario. People working for cr@p wages to make even cr@ppier quality goods to export. There will be no middle class.
linlithgow on May 17, 2007 at 11:24 PM
I think most of you went berzerk today over nothing!
No bill’s been passed and probably will not be passed.
By the time the Dems get through with it–if they do get through with it, no GOP politician will touch it.
Betcha it doesn’t make it out of the Senate.
Actually, if you read the article about what’s proposed, it’s not a bad plan and it’s not amnesty! (in fact, not even close)
Amnesty, or rather wide open borders, is what we have now.
Leaving things the way they are is what you’re accusing President Bush of starting…If we don’t do something, those 12-20 million Mexicans are coming anyway.
But to be frank, I’m disgusted at what hysterics you people have been; someone here even pretty openly hinted at assassinating President Bush…and another at impeaching Bush…and others that they were quitting the GOP forever, and on and on and on.
Get a grip, people!
Why didn’t you get this upset over the damn Dem bill on the war?
Jen the Neocon on May 17, 2007 at 11:25 PM
Always have to attach a label or a name… sigh.
The thing that has made our country the best in the world is its willingness to take in so many immigrants. New blood and people wanting to BE American to work hard for the dreams and opportunities.
How exactly do you deport them all?
If draconian steps are taken it will stifle that desire to integrate into the society and exacerbate the problem.
But again I ask “What viable solution do you propose in contrast to the current legislation?”
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:27 PM
Because most of the Republicans still support the war. A lot of Republicans, including some of the presidential candidates, and the president himself are pro-amnesty.
wherestherum on May 17, 2007 at 11:29 PM
Oh Yeeeaaahhhh! Right, whatever you say. Like the dude in the update above bitching about paying the 5K. “I’d rather be illegal.” Yep, what a fine, upstanding citizen he’ll make. He’s just dying to take that oath and become a citizen–as long as it’s handed to him on a f***ing silver platter.
jaleach on May 17, 2007 at 11:30 PM
1) Secure the border
2) Draconian punitive punishment for employers
3) Enforce existing law
All viable and solves the problem. Quickly.
csdeven on May 17, 2007 at 11:36 PM
I don’t understand you yahoos
tomas on May 17, 2007 at 11:36 PM
How do you secure the border?
What type of draconian punishments?
How is existing law suddenly enforced?
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:38 PM
This bill has a good chance of getting lots of conservative support. It’s a trial ballon and it needs to be vigerously opposed with as much vitriolic language as possible.
csdeven on May 17, 2007 at 11:38 PM
If they don’t ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY, secure the borders, all of this completely administrative nonsense is useless.
They will continue to flood into the country and in another 10 or 20 years, there will have be another amnesty because the bleeding hearts in the future will be saying the same things that the pro-illegal bleeding hearts do today.
We had a big amnesty for illegal aliens twenty years ago, that our politicians then, including a Republican President, told us would fix the problem permanently.
Deja Vu, all over again.
LegendHasIt on May 17, 2007 at 11:40 PM
SOLD OUT.
SOLD OUT.
SOLD OUT.
Treason doth never prosper,
What the reason?
For if it doth prosper,
None dare call it treason.
No new laws were needed.
Only the existing laws enforced.
This is all total bullsh1t.
Smoke and mirrors. Misdirection. Flim-flam.
SOLD OUT.
SOLD OUT.
SOLD OUT.
profitsbeard on May 17, 2007 at 11:41 PM
Now you’re being purposely obtuse.
csdeven on May 17, 2007 at 11:43 PM
I believe that the bill is going to pass with very minor tweaks to what was passed today. If one is not passed before Bush leaves office the earliest the next bill might get passed is 2012 or 2013. How many more illegal aliens will be here if another five years passes? That’s the nature of politics and compromise. The Republicans had a chance to pass one for six years and whiffed. No conspiracy theories there.
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:43 PM
The most idiotic statement I have read about this comes by way of CNN from Homeland Security Chertoff.
Yeah man, chase the maids and just think about the terrorists….dumb..dumb…dumb
News2Use on May 17, 2007 at 11:44 PM
No, the questions are reasonable, just how do you accomplish those three things and what is entailed. Do you really think the Republicans will go along with a bill that sets too high of a punishment on businesses? The legislation that passed provides for beefing up the border first. What would you do different?
Bradky on May 17, 2007 at 11:46 PM
This, pure and simple, is a triumph for the lobbyists and not the American people as Lindsay Graham would have us believe.
On one hand the Republicans get their workforce to pick lettuce, and on the other hand the Democrats get future voters. It’s a win-win situation for the politicians while the American voter will, of course, have to foot the bill.
The myriad of hoops that the illegal aliens will have to jump through to reach citizenship will, through ‘the law of unintended consequences’, have to modified time and again as the same lobbying groups insist on a more humane and faster method toward citizenship be used. After all, they will and have argued, we don’t want fathers and their children to be separated.
An immigration bill by any other name is still amnesty.
pocomoco on May 17, 2007 at 11:47 PM
I think physical enforcement of the border will require harsher tactics than anyone would be willing to use.
wherestherum on May 17, 2007 at 11:48 PM
So, following O’Reilly and the rest of the ‘it’s as good as it’s going to get crowd’…
when is half @ssed okay? No wonder we lost in Vietnam, no wonder the collective national spine is cracking over Iraq.
So if bin Laden approached us and said “No more attacks if you follow Sharia M-F should we say okay?” Hey, in a few years, few more thousand Americans dead, who will be saying, “well it won’t get any better”!
It will if people want it to be better; they don’t. They have their own personal agendas and pet reasons, so they don’t build a fence, they don’t enforce the border, they don’t punish cities that flout Federal Law by declaring a city a sanctuary, they don’t aggressively go after people who commit fraud or steal IDs.
A several hundred page plan is supposed to be simpler than all the above I mentioned? What planet are you apologists from? “Be Nice Land”? “Lets Bend Over Till Our Spine Cracks and Our Wallet Is Empty”?
This bill, you @sshat O’Reilly, isn’t a compromise - the illegals here get a slap on the wrist, asked to do unverifiable things (like go to their home country), and are rewarded with what they came here to steal - citizenship.
New Ad in the NY Times: Become an American citizen for only $5000! Simply break a law, whine in public about not getting something you aren’t entitled to, and you too could be an legal resident in America, on your way to becoming an American citizen in only 8 years!
Never mind my legal friends have had to go through hell and after 6, 7, 8 years are still jumping through hoops.
Makes me SICK.
I’m calling the GOP tomorrow and telling them don’t ever send me another bloody request for money again. You’re not Republicans, you don’t have the right.
linlithgow on May 17, 2007 at 11:48 PM
I emailed them and told them not one of my representitives would get my vote in the next election if they supported this bill.
csdeven on May 17, 2007 at 11:51 PM
If you can’t see the answers to those questions then you aren’t worth my time. The answers are obvious.
csdeven on May 17, 2007 at 11:54 PM
It’s stunning really, that these nitwits not only ignore history in their efforts to secure votes and business campaign contributions, but that they ignore the present.
Secure the border (fire Chertoff and Gonzales) before debating the fates of all these illegals.
Jaibones on May 17, 2007 at 11:56 PM
BTW a friend near Bisbee AZ just IM’d me saying that the desert is alive with groups of illegal aliens tonight and that he’s never seen anything like it.
By the time this POS becomes law there won’t be anything in it about a $5k fine or returning “home” and you can bet that funding for securing the border will never happen. False documents will take care of the illegal entry date restrictions and the Democrats will have enough votes to be the only party in power for the next hundred years. Well at least Rudy will be happy, he’s been pushing for amnesty for quite a while.
Buzzy on May 17, 2007 at 11:56 PM
Actually it makes it much easier when they have 23 adults renting the same house as my next door neighbors do.
And it isn’t charity, isn’t going to help the poor, it is going to help their family. It is a big difference. You wouldn’t call paying for your mother to get a cavity filled charity, you’d call it duty.
So quit trying to make it sound like they are higher up on the humanity chain than we are, when we let them break our laws. Ever met someone who forgot a single rifle round in the back of their trunk, under the spare tire and tools? I have, they spend 8 months in jail.
Tim Burton on May 18, 2007 at 12:01 AM
csdeven-
I’ve been pestering Dave Reichert for months now; calling emailing, faxing. He used to be King County Sheriff and yet I can’t get an answer from his office on how a former law enforcement officer could THINK of supporting a bill that tosses law away and puts a slap on the wrist of a criminal. I’ve told Reichert that I hope being a legal voter was sufficient to get my attention and I hoped I didn’t have to march in the streets to be listened to (that was on May Day).
MANY of these illegal aliens haven’t just broken one law. Michelle has written about the forged document ring for illegals that 9/11 hijackers also used; that’s posession of a forged document. Identity theft is up; wonder why? Your good credit is great for illegal immigrants to use to get a car, a credit card, a loan. Hear about the woman in Texas (where my mom lives down the street from an illegal alien halfway house where they use the backyard for a toilet). The SS dept determined this woman’s number had been passed around and used by hundreds of illegal workers. HUNDREDS. Possession of a stolen Social Security card mean anything any more?
Bradky, if you think current enforcement is impossible, how will we enforce these new provisions?
The GOP had years and passed the Fence bill; it was really for show, apparently. THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT TYPE OF ENFORCEMENT ISN’T THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Do we stop prosecuting shoplifters, drunk drivers and vandals if it gets too hard? Right is right no matter how difficult the path; enforcing immigration laws and standards on one group and then giving illegal aliens an easier, more accomodating path is WRONG and un American.
Dilution of the Roman culture and what it meant to be Roman, along with the competing customs and languages of conquered countries helped speed it’s downfall.
You can say all you want about how people want to ‘integrate’; if you look at the CIS and Pew numbers, Hispanics have the WORST assimiliation rate. Even after decades of being in America, many of them weren’t literate and still taught their children Spanish as their primary language. Look at all the companies that now feature Spanish as predominantly as English on their packaging; I went to NJ recently and saw several billboards ENTIRELY in Spanish.
I love varied culture, I love different ethnic groups, but when I want a taste of them I go to their country. I was born in America, where all LEGAL immigrants have to learn English and adapt. That’s not what’s happening and not what’s going to happen when a 12-20 million bloc of illegals, comprised almost entirely of a related ethnicity stay here.
By the way, anyone a lawyer? I am convinced this type of “these people are more equal than you” law is a violation of the equal protection clause. I want to know if I am right.
linlithgow on May 18, 2007 at 12:04 AM
I think that people should expect a “surge” as we ratchet up the enforcement requirements that the Republicans made conditional before any paths to citizenship can be established. Get in while they can - coming months may be more difficult.
Just a thought…
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 12:06 AM
I love this Ted Kennedy quote:
“What the bill will not do …First, our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually. Under the proposed bill, the present level of immigration remains substantially the same…Secondly the ethnic mix will not be upset…Contrary to the changes in some quarters, [the bill] will not inundate America with immigrants from any one country or area, or the most populated and deprived nations of Africa and Asia…”
-Sen. Edward Kennedy upon passage of the 1965 Immigration Act
And this one, courtesy of NumbersUSA just a little bit ago:
“This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this.”
linlithgow on May 18, 2007 at 12:09 AM
Bradky, we already HAD enforcement. It was called a physical FENCE.
Notice how everyone is talking about virtual enforcement? So some guy in a trailer watching the feed from a Predator is going to stop illegals now? A laser trip wire will get agents to the location of the illegal entry about 10 minutes after it mattered.
Keep deluding yourself; they know that we’ll roll over for them and they’re taking it to heart… they’re coming now and it won’t stop… ever.
linlithgow on May 18, 2007 at 12:11 AM
Following is an excerpt from the article I mentioned:
“As it turns out, most families who are descended from Latino immigrants share our experience. A study published last year in the journal Population and Development Review found that, within a few generations of families moving to the USA, Spanish dies out and English becomes the dominant language. Among third-generation Chicanos, 96% prefer to speak English in their homes. Even in border areas, the study found, “Spanish appears to be well on the way to a natural death by the third generation of U.S. residence.”
Given this reality, it’s xenophobic to view the Spanish language as a threat to American society. Even so, just last weekend Newt Gingrich denounced bilingual education by saying, “People (should) learn the common language of the country…the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto.”
His comments are as offensive as they are misguided. According to a 2006 survey by the Pew Center, 57% of Hispanics believe that immigrants have to speak English to be part of American society, while 41% did not. Pew also found that an overwhelming 92% of Latinos thought it was “very important” for the children of immigrants to be taught English. ”
It seems to dispute your claims, which you don’t cite any reference or source to back up your assertion with. This is one of the reasons Republicans get accused of being biased more than Democrats; too many jump to a conclusion and make sweeping statements such as you did, that aren’t really true. Please note this study was done by PEW, one of the polls you claim back up your point. References please.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 12:12 AM
By the way…Bush is courting the border patrol agents…1500 of them to get big money to go to Iraq…and The National Guard will soon finish their duty on the border…Free and clear!!! Bush is now heard yelling……….
Olley olley enfree!!!!
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 12:17 AM
Take a chill pill. You have said enough stuff to get in a tussle with the Secret Service.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 12:19 AM
Forgot the rifle round in the trunk crossing over to Mexico.
Tim Burton on May 18, 2007 at 12:21 AM
That they assimilate over a couple generations is probably, likely true. I won’t refute that. My grandparents came from China and both my parents were born here. My parents both speak English fluently and without an accent. We speak only English at home.
However, the problem is that since we have a constant influx of immigrants who speak only Spanish, it seems like English is being stamped out. I live in Los Angeles and there are a LOT of Spanish news stations and radio stations. In fact, there are few, if any, other language stations except Spanish. (You may stumble over some Asian language stations, but that’s blind luck.)
I don’t like that every sign here in LA has to be in English AND Spanish. I don’t like that I have to “Press 1 for English.” And if many of these people who come are poor and illiterate in Spanish, how does posting everything in Spanish help them? They can’t read it any more than they can read English. Even at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History, the exhibits are in English and Spanish. When I was a kid, school fliers were sent home in English and Spanish. I grew up surrounded by English and Spanish. I took Spanish in high school because that’s the second language of Los Angeles. I’m all for being multilingual, but I think by being so accommodating it creates a disincentive to learn English. Especially since they can live all over this city and not have to learn English because 90% of the population is Hispanic.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 12:24 AM
If your republican senator is supporting this legislation, here is what to do. Take out your check book, and write a check for $500 to the national republican party.
Next write VOID across that check. Next enclose the check along with a letter that states you are a fed up republican, who is tired of your senator flaunting the will of the people in her district ( Kay Bailey-Hutchinson for mine). You will no longer be able to donate to the republican party until they nominate a candiate in the next national election cycle to depose your arrogant republican senator. If we all do this, the party will have to respond, and we can remove these turncoats. Senator Hutchinson, we are going to unseat you, and the rest of the party traitors!
paulsur on May 18, 2007 at 12:24 AM
And if these kids are supposed to learn English through free public school, God help them if they go to a low scoring LAUSD school.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 12:26 AM
I am against trying to have any language other than english being used in schools (other than foreign language classes), court rooms, government proceedings and ballots.
That said, my main point tonight is that the good news is most do assimilate over a generation or two. Who benefits and why? The US does because (1) more taxpayers (2) new blood and ideas (3) sets the example for those in other countries about opportunity and freedom (4) Set example for other Hispanics to aspire to.
Look at Europe or Japan where immigration is much more tightly controlled along with onerous government controls. The population is actually declining because it is too expensive to live there and creativity is stifled.
I’ll be the first to acknowledge we have real problems with illegal immigration and something needs to be done. But like your family, those who follow the legal route to citizenship and assimilation add far more to our society than what is being taken.
On a separate note, have you seen the youtube clip “Crazy Asian Mother by Erick Liang” — it is a hoot for anyone who has been raised by an Asian parent in the US.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 12:34 AM
Sorry about that…I forgot only hispanics are allowed to spout their frustration and demands …….and soon the dems wil ,ake sure wishful thinking will also be not allowed………
Mellen on May 18, 2007 at 12:37 AM
Mellen, we dismissed our Mexican yard crew because we didn’t want to be part of the problem.
I want to see this problem solved as much as the rest of you, but I think President Bush has come up with a good plan THAT IS NOT AMNESTY.
You people are so hysterical and blinded by your craziness that you haven’t even read what the proposed bill recommends.
It could be a good plan, although I doubt it will be after the Dems get through with it.
I too am tired of paying for the illegals through property taxes, crime, and the burden on our schools and hospitals, but President Bush didn’t start this problem and he’s trying to get Congress off of their lazy butts to do something via legislation–something he’s been asking for,
for years!
But there is NO REASON–NONE–to call for “beheading the hydra” or however you phrased it.
Sick stuff.
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 12:38 AM
And Paulsur, before you get completely worked up about lynching Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, you need to know that our other Texas Sen. John Cornyn was one of the team that drew up this proposed legislation plan.
I still support both my Senators from Texas, thank you!
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 12:40 AM
Jen the Neocon
I like your points in this thread.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 12:43 AM
I like yours, too, Bradky.
Nice to have some sane company–the rest of this place is completely unhinged today!
I know illegal Mexicans are a problem, but please!
Who knew these people were smoldering with such hate?
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 12:45 AM
Yes. Go figure. And you just know there are a couple of sites making sure to post the screen shots of the comments. The Secret Service just doesn’t play - they recently arrested a 19 year old kid for threatening to “do something” to Hilary in Baton Rouge. Posted in facebook or something like that.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 12:48 AM
Jen, you make me smile. Calling so many others insane by implication and “unhinged”, while claiming to be sane is a bit argument-defeating.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 12:49 AM
The threat of the SS showing up is bad enough, but as a patriotic and loyal American, I don’t want anyone to hurt my President (I was a 2nd grader in Dallas when JFK was assassinated and can never forget it, no matter how much I try) and personally speaking, I love President Bush and I think he genuinely tries to do the right thing even in regards to this and it truly upsets me when I see people accusing him of doing base things that are harmful to this country.
We’ve had quite an illegal problem in Texas for a long time (like since the Alamo!) and having been Governor of this state, President Bush knows only too well the size of the problems we’re facing and how best to solve them.
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 12:53 AM
Not to offend you, Jen, but I think Bush is just as pro-illegal as the Ted Kennedy. To me, that’s not something to take lightly. He may know the size of the illegal immigration problem, but he supports amnesty. I can support him through the Iraq war, but I cannot and will not support anything he says about immigration unless it’s enforcement only. California has just as big an illegal problem and no one here will do anything about it. We passed Prop 187 back in the 90s and it was overturned as unconstitutional. The politicans want the illegals here because they’re future voters.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 12:58 AM
I don’t believe I claimed to be sane, although that goes without saying when I am one of 2 or 3 people on this thread that haven’t threatened to go nuclear in various legal and illegal ways because the legislative team and the White House released their proposals for the new immigration bill!
It’s not even a bill yet, much less law and noone’s getting amnesty–so who are the “sane” and “insane” ones, please?
How this is “argument-defeating” I just can’t guess…must be blinded by all the histrionics!
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 1:00 AM
Jack M. at Ace’s suggest trying to get some of our non turncoat senators to ask that the bill be read in its entirety. As big as it is, it could take days, and he thinks they are obliged by Senate rules to do this. There is a list of people inthread that may be candidates for that
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/226886.php
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 1:01 AM
This whole thing really comes down to race. If the majority of the illegals we see were say, from Italy or Ireland or some other European country, I bet the Dems would be okay with deporting them and kicking them out. They’d be the first ones rounding them all up and sticking them on a plane/boat back to Europe.
The anti-immigrant laws of the 1920s seem quaintly archaic now.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:03 AM
He doesn’t.
President Bush has said numerous times–and he said it again today–that he doesn’t support amnesty.
You’re right about that, though, for the most part.
One of your problems in CA are not only Dem Senators like Feinstein and Boxer, but also the RINO Arnold who has morphed into Gray Davis.
Hasn’t Arnold stopped the National Guard from deploying to the California border?
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 1:04 AM
I mentioned in an earlier post that the Wal Mart where i live is mostly shopped by mexicans and most of them don’t bother to speak english. I’ll add to that the people speaking spanish range from the very old to the very young. In other words, it spans generations. Almost every aspect of daily life where i live (Texas) is done in both english and spanish. Mexican kids are the majority now in the public schools where i live. There are as many spanish stations as there are rock and country stations combined on the radio. This concept of assimilation is nothing but nonsense.
forged rite on May 18, 2007 at 1:05 AM
Not all here are hateful. There is much discussion here and on radio stations. I can’t believe that literally millions of Americans, just as patriotic and loyal as you, are insane, hateful and unhinged, as you put it. In any event, we won’t solve it tonight and we all can say/believe anything, less a few limitations.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 1:07 AM
Just because Bush says he doesn’t support amnesty means he doesn’t. If it looks/sounds/walks like a duck…
Oh, Arnold. I did vote him during the recall because it was a novelty. And I think he sincerely tried that first term. But the Democrat legislature we have here is way too powerful so he caved. Arnold’s completely turned his back on the conservatives. We’re virtually powerless in this state. I really wanted Tom McClintock to be governor, but that’s nothing more than a pipe dream. It’s even sadder than Arnold’s worse than Gray Davis. His budget is ridiculous, nearly half of it is for education, and still the teachers union castigate him for not giving them enough money.
I think we shoulder consider California lost to Mexico. Aztlan. Whatever.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:09 AM
“These aren’t the Droids we’re looking for.”
Bad Candy on May 18, 2007 at 1:10 AM
The concept of hypothetical is lost on you, isn’t it?
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:10 AM
If you don’t want to accept the study that Pew did that is your perogative but your observations are not scientific. Not everyone comes here as a child - it is likely that they come as adults.
It is possible the older people are the first generation, younger adults second gen and their kids the third.
If you have studies to back up your claim that “assimilation is nothing but nonsense” please present them with the source.
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 1:11 AM
Sure, if they pay it it’s not charity, but it means my charitable money can go somewhere else, so it ends up the same.
Whatever you would call it, the amount of money transfered to Mexico shows that they are not all sitting around collecting social services. According to http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/3/16/132224.shtml, its $40B/year. There is a total of $250B/year of charitable giving in the US, so that’s about 20%, ballpark, and it’s not clear how much of the $250B is coming from Hispanics. I can’t tell how much of that is from illegals, but based on their lower average income they seem to be pulling their weight in that department.
People are here are saying the illegals are taking our low skill jobs, our high-paying construction jobs, our welfare services, our kids’ educations, and not paying taxes. Well, they are here now and no one is going to be able to put them on trains and send them back. All we can do is make them legal so they start paying taxes. After that they are the same as you and me.
pedestrian on May 18, 2007 at 1:12 AM
And then millions more illegals come in and we’re back to where we started.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:14 AM
We’ll see whether it’s hypothetical, won’t we? I think you know better.
jaleach on May 18, 2007 at 1:14 AM
How about for every illegal we make legal we deport an America hating liberal starting with…Rosie O’Donnell.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:15 AM
The conservatives and the liberals don’t like Arnold. He’s managed to tick both off with this latest budget. He sleeps with Maria and she whispers things in his ears. Yet, the alternative was Phil Angelides, puke!
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 1:16 AM
Well, they need to get a grip, read what the proposed bill really says and quit ripping President Bush and the GOP or they’ll destroy the Republican base, ensure that the evil Democrats win control of all 3 branches of government in the future for decades to come and as the cherry on the sundae, they will see all those milllions of illegals get amnesty!
Republicans–as weak and horrible as they are perceived to be today on this issue–are our best hope to get any immigration reform and border controls.
The Dems will try to get complete amnesty for everyone and will want to keep the borders wide open because they think those are voters… and if they’re lucky, illegals will be the reasons if not the sources for levying higher and higher taxes.
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 1:17 AM
I hope you’re right, Anton. This thread has gotten so lame that Bradky is the Hub
it may be Dover Beach time…………
Janos Hunyadi on May 18, 2007 at 1:17 AM
Tomorrow the bill will be made public. As I said earlier, its passage will assure the libs a majority in Congress for the next 40 years. The only hope this crowd has is voting in a conservative president in 2008, for some counterbalance.
But, if I know the Americans well, this bill, once revealed, will wake them up. It will be like boycotting a certain good. By the time it comes to a vote in Congress, in a few months, both sides will have sobered up, or else their fannies will be on the line in 2008. Party will not matter any more, if they don’t get the message.
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 1:23 AM
I fervently hope you’re right, Entelechy.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:26 AM
IT’S NOT AMNESTY.
Have you read some of what the proposed bill provides?
It’s not amnesty. Not even close.
Arnold is a big disappointment and he highlights half of the illegals problems which are the states’ governors; Arnold, Napolitano of Arizona and Richardson of New Mexico (all 3 of which sit on the Mexican border) have all been very uncooperative with the Bush Administration on letting the National Guard deploy to enforce the border.
Even GOP Gov. Rick Perry of Texas has been squirrely. But that’s Rick (not my favorite Republican, BTW).
Everyone blames President Bush, but it’s really the Governors and Congress (who have done anything but come up with legislation on immigration and Social Security for the last 6 years) who are to blame, not the President.
Jen the Neocon on May 18, 2007 at 1:27 AM
Jen,
ANY bill that gives preference to illegals over law abiding immigrants is amnesty. President Bush can spin this all he likes, but it quacks, waddles, and looks like amnesty and it is amnesty. This bill is loaded with bull$hit that doesn’t need to be there. First, the border should be secured. Two, all current laws should be enforced. Third, Huge, and I mean HUGE penalties for employers who hire illegals. Last, all immigrants in the legal pipeline will be fast tracked to legal status to fill the job void created by mass deportations. ALL, and I mean ALL the brueacracy currently exists to enact all the proposals I have made. The only change would be that of volume. New jobs for LEGAL citizens and immigrants will be created to move these law breakers out of this country.
It’s that friggen simple.
Additionally, you criticize people for being pissed about this, but this bill with all it’s flaws should not even be considered. If those that oppose it wait until this bill gets momentum they may lose the opportunity to effect a change in their representitives votes. This is a betrayal to legal immigrants and americans in general and those in opposition should express their deep felt feelings as vitriolically as possible.
csdeven on May 18, 2007 at 1:28 AM
He does support amnesty.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:29 AM
Whoops, I had a link.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005083.htm
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:29 AM
Once again ( not for the first or last time ) the Roman-nemet lady speaks wisely. The House bill is still mutating, but is supposedly significantly different
Janos Hunyadi on May 18, 2007 at 1:29 AM
If Tancrado is smart, he’s gonna be up all night getting ready to make political hay out of this. He could see a good size bump in his poll numbers.
Too bad he isn’t a stock option. I’d be dumping all my disposable income into this guy.
csdeven on May 18, 2007 at 1:30 AM
Great find! I love watching people get facts shoved up their ignorant a$$es.
csdeven on May 18, 2007 at 1:31 AM
More specifically in that link:
csdeven, I like Tancredo, but I don’t think he has much of chance to win, not against the likes of Hillary! or Obama.
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:32 AM
The word amnesty is used a few times, upstairs, on top, in a variety of contexts. Quit kidding yourself. I’d prefer that Mr. Bush call it what it is and get it over with.
csdeven, Mr. Tancredo is this issue-horse and has no chance of going anywhere on the ticket. Forget that one. But I know someone who can. Too late to spar with you tonight :)
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 1:32 AM
Janos, how are you my Hungarian friend? You are legal, right? Kidding :) Regards,
Entelechy on May 18, 2007 at 1:35 AM
And just for gits and shiggles….remember “Pathway to Citizenship”?
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005075.htm
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:37 AM
Bush not for amnesty? Then why has he been working to give invaders amnesty? Amnesty Lite is still amnesty. It still rewards criminals for their criminal activities, lets them off the hook with a meaningless slap on the hand. A slap on the hand that is not likely to be enforced. What’s being enforced now? Very little.
>if you give me 20% of that money I can and will find 90% to 95% of the 12 million illegal aliens and send them home. PERIOD!
I’ll start in my neighborhood, for free!
Those of us in southern Arizona know how bad the problem is. We can’t just stick our heads in the ground and complacently suck in the BS like a couple of our “sane” posters here are doing so spectacularly.
How many times do we have to let the GOP spit in our faces? We’re just being enablers in a dysfunctional relationship with an sick, abusive partners. It wouldn’t be healthy to stay in the relationship.
Doghouse on May 18, 2007 at 1:37 AM
If you need more:
http://www.google.com/custom?q=bush+amnesty&cof=AH%3Acenter%3BLH%3A124%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fmichellemalkin.com%2Fgraphics%2Fmm_logo.gif%3BLW%3A750%3BAWFID%3A816d74a6ad07d72e%3B&domains=michellemalkin.com&sitesearch=michellemalkin.com&x=0&y=0
wherestherum on May 18, 2007 at 1:38 AM
Why Janos… Of course I’ll go out with you ;)
Bradky on May 18, 2007 at 1:39 AM
We complain about the loony left and their BDS, but I keep seeing a few people going the other way with an obsessive BLS (Bush Lust Syndrome)…
Doghouse on May 18, 2007 at 1:40 AM
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